Re: Can't (Re: graduated)

June 11, 2003

> AndyTiedye wrote:

>

> > I'll take your word for it that you can't draw. [...]

> > There are other forms of visual art. Have you ever tried tiedye?

>

> This is PRECISELY what I'm talking about, the " helpful " suggestions I

> get from people. It doesn't interest me, and I'm no good at it.

Since you say you are no good at it, that implies that you have tried

it. I had to ask, because you had generalized from drawing to all forms

of visual art. I made the same generalization at one time, and found

out otherwise when I tried it, and realized that the things that

prevented me from drawing well didn't apply to this.

If I try and try and try to do something, and can't do it, I will give

up eventually. But if I have to rope off that area as " don't go there " ,

I want rope off as small an area as possible, and I will come back to

test the boundaries from time to time.

If tiedyeing doesn't interest you then you can apply the same principle

elsewhere.

> I'll stick to creative writing.

That works too.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

June 11, 2003

> I'd get positive thinking books heaped on me -- and

> the worst, the very worst -- cards of encouragement

> with artwork done by those toe-painters or

> mouth-painters (handicapped), with notes like " See? If

> they can do it so can you! "

Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article

about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend

says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I

looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression,

too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he

have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me

to him. "

My boyfriend got the message, and he doesn't do things like that anymore.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did

indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

June 11, 2003

Of course " can't " is a word. I can't sing opera. I can't run a four-minute mile.

I can't flap my arms and fly out the window. There's a difference between being

negative and merely being realistic.

I also find it strange that often, the same people who tell me I can do anything

I set my mind to are also the ones who tell me I should " accept my limitations "

when I fail at something I like to do, like drawing.

-----------Hoo boy, can I relate to this. One thing

that used to bother and depress the hell out of me

(pre -AS discovery) was when I tried to explain to

people how it was impossible for me to market myself.

I'd get positive thinking books heaped on me -- and

the worst, the very worst -- cards of encouragement

with artwork done by those toe-painters or

mouth-painters (handicapped), with notes like " See? If

they can do it so can you! "

It wasn't encouraging at all -- it was totally

depressing.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

June 11, 2003

Welcome to my world. Physically disabled people get that--excuse me--*crap* all

the time. Maudlin, motivational-speaker pap. The assumption is that if one

person in a wheelchair can climb mountains and get a PhD in nuclear physics

while raising six kids, *all* people in wheelchairs should be able to do it. I

had a conversation with one gentleman at the mall who asked me why I didn't

work. When I explained why, he gave me the typical " success story " of a man

missing an arm who became a construction worker. When I pointed out that my

disability was far worse than his, he said, " A handicap is a handicap. " Um,

no...some are more severe than others. *I* couldn't do construction work, and I

wouldn't go around suggesting every disabled person should attempt it.

Aside from that, disabled people are individuals, just like the " normals. " We

have differing intelligence and a wide range of talents. But there are certain

individuals who like to put us all into the same group, as if we were

cookie-cutter figures, every one the same.

I apologize for this rant...this is one of those issues that touch a nerve.

Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article

about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend

says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I

looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression,

too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he

have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me

to him. "

My boyfriend got the message, and he doesn't do things like that anymore.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did

indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

June 11, 2003

> Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article

> about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend

> says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I

> looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression,

> too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he

> have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me

> to him. "

Reminds me of a dialogue from the documentary film " When Broke His

Head " by Golfus. (Between and his dad.)

Went something like (in a conversation about being unable to find

work):

Dad: But you're not *that disabled*.

: Dad, you're thinking wheelchairs again. My disability's in

here. I got hit in the head. I have a brain injury.

Dad: Yes, but you can't lean on that.

: I'm not leaning on it, I'm talking to you about it. I went back

and got a master's degree. I'm not *leaning* on it!

Dad: Well you showed real determination in getting that master's

degree, but then you fell in love with writing and I thought you should

be doing something productive... (and so forth)

There's nothing about being paraplegic in itself -- beyond prejudice and

potentially architectural barriers and the like -- that would prevent

someone from having the social and cognitive skills most CEOs have. As

an autistic person, it would be *way* more difficult, given the amount

of social skills and multitasking usually involved. Most paras are NT

(and some a little too vocally proud of *not* having anything " mental "

different about them).

--

" We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question which divides

us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct. "

-Niels Bohr

June 11, 2003

> I apologize for this rant...this is one of those issues that touch a

> nerve.

I don't think you have anything to apologize for. It is terribly

frutstrating and annoying to have to deal with ignorant people like that.

I love my boyfriend dearly, but he does not know what it is like to live

for even one day with a body that has the limitations mine does or a brain

that works the way mine does.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did

indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

June 11, 2003

AndyTiedye wrote:

> I'll take your word for it that you can't draw. I can't draw either.

> All those tiny, precise movements, during which the rest of the body

> has to remain perfectly still. Arrrgh.

>

> There are other forms of visual art.

I found that I am good with clay. When I had an obsession with frogs

from the 8th to the 9th grade, I used to look at all of the frog

pictures I could. One day in art class, I found myself with a lump of

clay and no one to watch me. I was supposed to make some idiotic pot or

something, but I made a frog. It was proportioned perfectly, and had

all of the features a frog should have. I generated this 3-d frog from

a 2-d photo of a frog I had seen before. I still have the clay frog...

its face is broken off, but I still have the body.

I often think of that example when I try to determine whether the

" autistics are not creative " thing has any merit. I see lots of

autistic types that do various forms of art, and I do not buy that our

kind is not creative. However, in my case, my drawings and

three-dimesional representations are more like illustrations than

anything artful. They are more like snapshots from my mind than

anything creative.

That said, I have written fictional stories that were regarded as

creative. A lot of my fiction is manufactured; I have to think about it

more than I do when I write nonfiction (like what I am writing now). I

am having difficulty explaining what I mean by that. Every lead

character is me, and I cannot just " assume " things about the lead that

do not exist presently with myself. If I am going to write about a

helicopter pilot, I have to include how I became a helicopter pilot. If

there is some trait about me that prevents me from being a helicopter

pilot, I have to explain how I overcame that. This is true even if I

rename the lead character to be someone else. I still have to make a

concrete transition from me as I am now to the new lead character.

I have written this all before, so my apologies to those of you that are

tired of reading it. Now for the upshot to all of this repetition.

Even so, when I did the Pitt evaluation study, I was reported to have

" limited creativity. " I think this may be yet another example of my

creativity being different than expected, and rather than them

recognizing that creativity comes in more forms than they expect, they

say I don't have much of it.

June 11, 2003

Doug wrote:

>> One example is visual art: drawing is *the* main art form

>> taught in schools (at least it was where and when I went),

>> and I was never any good at it. I get to be an adult and

>> join things like the UU church, with its free and liberal mindset,

>> and I say " I can't do visual art " .

and Andy responded:

>I'll take your word for it that you can't draw. I can't draw either.

>All those tiny, precise movements, during which the rest of the body

>has to remain perfectly still. Arrrgh.

>

>There are other forms of visual art. Have you ever tried tiedye?

Also different times of life. Until I became interested

in making bears (when I was in my late 40s), sewing was

something I did badly and only when absolutely necessary.

Usually to hem clothing. My hands did not seem at all

well suited to sewing. In the beginning of the bear

years, I was sure I'd never be able to do certain things

well at all (embroider the nose, for example), and other

aspects of bear-making were extremely frustrating for me.

They made me feel clumsy and inept and helpless and

stupid. But my interest was so strong that I went on

with it anyway.

I am never going to be a " bear artist " like those few

people universally (in the bear world) recognized as

the top, most creative makers of the most perfect bears.

There are things about me that would keep me from joining

that celestial chorus even if I spent the next 20 years

doing nothing but honing my bear-making skills. But I

certainly create bears who don't need to feel lowly in

the company of the majority of well-made bears. And my

bears outshine a great many bears made by people who

do it for money (i.e., people who sell the bears they

make). Most of all, the making of the bears gives me

a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction (as do the

bears themselves). It's my form of " therapy. "

I guess what I'm saying is that I've discovered how

satisfying it can be to devote one's self to an " art "

for which one lacks natural aptitude and in which one

is never going to be a " star. "

Not disagreeing with any of the previous viewpoints

in this thread, just adding another POV.

Not only am I not able to draw, BTW, I'm totally unable

to figure out how a pattern piece should be changed in

order to produce the desired result in the finished

bear. This drives me crazy sometimes!

Jane

June 11, 2003

AndyTiedye wrote:

> Since you say you are no good at it, that implies that you have tried

> it. I had to ask, because you had generalized from drawing to all forms

> of visual art.

Actually, I had specified (or " specialized " ? what is the proper antonym

of 'generalized'?) from visual art to drawing as an example. Hand-eye

coordination isn't nearly so much my problem -- I simply don't possess

the visual-art kind of creativity.

Doug

June 11, 2003

At 06:24 PM 6/11/03 -0700, Iris M. Gray wrote:

>Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article

>about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend

>says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I

>looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression,

>too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he

>have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me

>to him. "

One of the big differences between visible disabilities, like paraplegia or

spina bifida, and invisible disabilities, like depression and Asperger's,

is that there will always be many people practically falling all over

themselves to give opportunities to the visibly disabled. Visibly disabled

people are more " inspirational " because their disability is out there for

everyone to clearly see, every moment. People feel good about helping the

visibly disabled.

People often don't even recognize the invisibly disabled and when it is

pointed out to them, they don't understand it, so it doesn't have that

" inspirational, feel-good " factor to it. Because the average person can't

look at an aspie and see the disability, we aren't as " inspiring " and

people don't want to rush up and help us with life the way they often do

with the visibly disabled.

While the paraplegic CEO was undoubtedly a bright man with talent, chances

are that he was ushered into the job, especially if he was working during

the 1980s and early 1990s when large companies were heavily competing with

each other to hire visibly disabled people for upper-management positions.

Sometimes I wish my disabilities were visible so that I could have people

competing to help me and sometimes I'm glad my disabilities are invisible

because I know that anything I've accomplished was due to my own effort,

not due to people trying to give me everything so they could feel

" inspired " and warm inside.

Sparrow

June 11, 2003

At 08:45 PM 6/11/03 -0500, Newstead wrote:

>Welcome to my world. Physically disabled people get that--excuse

me--*crap* all the time. Maudlin, motivational-speaker pap. The assumption

is that if one person in a wheelchair can climb mountains and get a PhD in

nuclear physics while raising six kids, *all* people in wheelchairs should

be able to do it. I had a conversation with one gentleman at the mall who

asked me why I didn't work. When I explained why, he gave me the typical

" success story " of a man missing an arm who became a construction worker.

When I pointed out that my disability was far worse than his, he said, " A

handicap is a handicap. " Um, no...some are more severe than others. *I*

couldn't do construction work, and I wouldn't go around suggesting every

disabled person should attempt it.

>

>Aside from that, disabled people are individuals, just like the " normals. "

We have differing intelligence and a wide range of talents. But there are

certain individuals who like to put us all into the same group, as if we

were cookie-cutter figures, every one the same.

>

>I apologize for this rant...this is one of those issues that touch a nerve.

You're in the awkward position of having *both* a visible and an invisible

disability. So people probably look at you and judge you as " person in

wheelchair " and don't see or maybe even refuse to see anything else.

My guess (and I'm just guessing here. Feel free to yell at me if I'm

totally off the mark) is that you get the " let's fall all over ourselves to

help the " inspirational " person in the wheelchair " stuff I was talking

about in an earlier post but then when your invisible disability gets in

the way of your being able to take advantage of that help and the people

aren't giving you the kind of help you really need, you get branded as the

" ungrateful, lazy person in the wheelchair. " Does it go that way or am I

way, way off base?

The last time I tried to work, I watched people fall all over themselves to

give everything under the sun to a blind woman who (without the help) did

the job better than any of the sighted people. She didn't need any help,

but people were competing to see who could be the one to do the most for

her. Meanwhile, I was floundering and could have seriously used some help

but all I got was yelled at. :-(

Sparrow

June 12, 2003

> Sometimes I wish my disabilities were visible so that I could have

> people competing to help me and sometimes I'm glad my disabilities are

> invisible because I know that anything I've accomplished was due to my

> own effort, not due to people trying to give me everything so they could

> feel " inspired " and warm inside.

I not only have invisible mental disabilities (AS and depression) but

physical ones as well (diabetes, asthma, fibromyalgia). A few months ago I

injured myself and had to walk with a cane. Sometimes I think I should

walk with the cane even if I don't need it anymore, just so that I " look "

disabled.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did

indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

June 12, 2003

Sparrow danced around singing:

>Sometimes I wish my disabilities were visible so that I could have people

>competing to help me and sometimes I'm glad my disabilities are invisible

>because I know that anything I've accomplished was due to my own effort,

>not due to people trying to give me everything so they could feel

> " inspired " and warm inside.

Because of the nature of my disabilities, I've spent my life on both sides

of the fence, and believe me, the grass isn't green on either side! On the

one hand are people that aren't told about my organ defects, and make

unkind comments about how I'm just being lazy, whiny, or the many other

things said to people with invisible disabilities. On the other hand are

the ones that *do* find out about my physical issues and then tell me that

I'm an inspiration.

I haven't had any cases, in 26 years, of people trying to give me things --

I think that's a bit of a myth about the physically disabled, from

everything I have seen. In fact, everyone assumes that everyone else is

doing the giving, so the result is a lot of people being very hard on the

" disabled kid " (as even adult disabled people of all kinds are regarded as

children) to make sure we're " independent. " So not only do we get to

struggle with whatever handicap we have, we're taught from day one that

it's a huge sign of weakness to accept *any* help, which means that we wind

up going it alone at times when even the most vehemently independent

able-bodied NT would casually ask a friend for a hand.

The closest I have come is when a campus has removed the societal

assumptions that cause me to be judged based on my body rather than my

knowledge or intellect. For example, many courses require a discussion

section, and participation/attendance is mandatory. Without accommodation

for my disabilities, I'd simply fail and that's all there is to it, because

even though I have the knowledge, I am often too sick to be on campus. So

what the schools have done is allow for me to do my " part " in discussion by

bringing it online -- inviting my fellow students to a YahooGroup and

tackling the subject matter where the TA or prof can watch. I'm still

doing my part, demonstrating I have the knowledge, but it's in a way that

doesn't discriminate against my body's willingness to do what my mind wants.

When people call me an " inspiration " after finding out the truth about my

body, though, they always mean that I have struggled to change my life from

something comfortable and disability-friendly into something able-bodied-NT

style. Nobody calls me an " inspiration " for being open about my problems,

for seeking out ways to help others take pride in who they are... They only

find me " inspirational " when I pretend to be normal -- because they can't

fathom the idea of improvement being in any other direction except towards

them.

I used to have the " it's bad to let anyone give me special treatment "

attitude very strongly. It finally dawned on me, one day as I was slogging

around campus in the rain with bronchitis to turn a paper in on time, that

the grades I was getting weren't accurate. For every time I had an " A "

worth of knowledge on a course subject, my being too tired to think

straight from the stress of my efforts to always show up, always do things

on time, always appear normal, gave me a " C " instead. Even when I was

getting " A " grades, it was the result of a combination of effort &

knowledge that deserved a grade off the charts. As soon as I said nuts to

the supercrip act and was granted the ability to rest at home, do

discussions online, and have extensions on due-dates so I could write when

I was clear-headed (as opposed to " while half-conscious from meds or

illness " ), my grades went through the roof -- I started getting " A " grades

on my work with very little effort.

So at this point, while I still reject " help " in all but the most important

cases, I see nothing wrong with accommodations that let me show what my

*brain* is capable of, rather than what brain + body can do. If I were

doing something that was physically-related, sure, then I'd understand; but

in academics and similar activities where the mind is paramount, bugger me

if I'm going to let someone punish me because my *body* isn't perfect or

because my mind functions differently (just as well, perhaps even better,

just different)...

DeGraf ~*~ http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy

For an autistic, being an 'inspiration' thus far means:

" Good for you, you've learned to extinguish

your personality for my comfort! " -- me

June 12, 2003

On the other hand are

> the ones that *do* find out about my physical issues and then tell me that

> I'm an inspiration.

When I was a kid I always got told I was " brave " for living with diabetes.

My reaction to that was always " Like I have some sort of choice? " I mean,

what, I could be cowardly and choose not to have it, or brave and choose

to have it? Of course, then there were the people who said, " I could never

do what you do! I could never take shots every day! " To which my response

would also be, " I have a choice? " Gee, I'm too scared to take shots every

day, so I guess I just won't take them.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did

indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

June 12, 2003

Actually, you couldn't be more *on* base. That's almost a word-for-word quote of

the kind of comment I've gotten from able-bodied people over the years.

I worked for civil service once. It was enough to convince me I was not cut out

for office work, or indeed, any work outside the home. I'm in a double bind. If

I hold a job, I end up making next to nothing, losing my benefits, and suffering

a nervous breakdown. If I don't work, I'm labeled " lazy. "

When I was a client of Voc Rehab in the eighties, they paid for my first two

years of college. When I switched my major from something I couldn't handle (TV

Production) to something I could (Spanish and Fine Arts) the funding went

bye-bye and I had to get a Pell.

It occurred to me they really didn't do much to help the disabled. I noticed

that most of their disabled former clients ended up becoming--you guessed

it--Voc Rehab counselors. They would have preferred I go into teaching,

something for which I couldn't be more temperamentally unsuited. I should know,

I did it briefly in the nineties.

I find it ironic that Voc Rehab will help me get the stereotypical " cripple

jobs " I *can't* handle (like data entry). But when I attempt to establish myself

in a field in which I have talent, that runs contrary to stereotype--like

cartooning and/or commercial art--I'm told I should " be realistic " and " accept

my limitations. "

My guess (and I'm just guessing here. Feel free to yell at me if I'm

totally off the mark) is that you get the " let's fall all over ourselves to

help the " inspirational " person in the wheelchair " stuff I was talking

about in an earlier post but then when your invisible disability gets in

the way of your being able to take advantage of that help and the people

aren't giving you the kind of help you really need, you get branded as the

" ungrateful, lazy person in the wheelchair. " Does it go that way or am I

way, way off base?

June 12, 2003

Thank you! I wish I'd said that!

Older physically disabled people, like me, have been given relatively little. I

went to a regular school with able-bodied kids long before " mainstreaming " and

" inclusion " were fashionable. I had to beg and my parents had to threaten before

I received even the smallest accomodation. Even in high school in the seventies,

my parents nearly had to take the school district to court to get the school to

build a simple little wooden ramp to one of my classes. The attitude was, " If

you can't handle the demands of this school, you shouldn't be here... " Not that

I had a choice--there typically weren't any special schools in the immediate

area. I had to be educated at a regular school or not at all. When I asked to

leave classes five minutes early in junior high so I could get to my next class

on time, I was scolded by teachers and sneered at by other students for asking

for " special privileges. "

Every job I ever held I got on my own--Voc Rehab never helped me get a single

one. They *did* help with college for two years, but that's all. But even that,

and the Pell grant I got later, weren't " given " to me. I did, after all, have to

maintain the grades to keep receiving the aid.

And as I and others have already mentioned, I had invisible disabilities (which

at the time I didn't even know existed) on top of the visible ones, which made

things all the harder.

As if things weren't bad enough, I had to put up with the teasing and constant

harrassment from other students.

Given what I've had to go through in my life, I consider the little disability

check I receive now to be compensation of a sort.