Re: Dr Cheney's keynote presentation at the 2007 IACFS Conference

[Guest guest]

Tony..

Calm down.

Ever hear of using symbols like ** & & when you want to say the work

Fu* & on-line??

I for one LIKE to hear what he has to say..

This list serves a purpose of attracting some people who can and have

used their own brain to improve their illness and therapy... What

they have to say is worth listening to.

But this list can be a little on the rough side.. you won't need to

swear at anyone to get your point across.

I'd not want to see anymore people get driven off becuase we have

disagreements (haven't seen J here lately - that's too bad).

If we start repeating the same-ole same ole.. the list will die a

slow death.

Barb

> > >

> > > ?

> > > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a MASSIVE

> > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT.

> Debriding

> > > and antibiotics

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Correct.

> >

> >

> >

> > ...And your the No Infection man.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses and

> > metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing remaining

brain

> > inflammation and it is all detoxing slowly as I progress, but jaw

> and

> > skull bacterial infection are gone.

> >

> >

> >

> > Dellusional is you

> > > buddy.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony. That's

> > what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years, decades.

> >

> >

> >

> > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass swearing

> > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something everyone

else

> has

> > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations right

they

> > > didn't...

> >

> >

> >

> > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation

blocks

> > exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without a

> Yasko

> > and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the new

> level.

> >

> >

> >

> > > tony

> >

> >

> >

> > ***

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think there's probably gaps we don't know about in 's

therapy.. (but naybe not- - pls. correct me if I'm wrong)

Almost every one that says some protocolis cured them (including the

nam-less can't speak it' protocol) is comprised of people that had

other antibiotic therapies first (that they don't mention). Most fail

to mention them because they can't take them anymore- and don't think

the worked- or made them worse (i.e. allergic to them and can't take

them anymore).

I'm the only person I know that did exclusively Alt. Therapies

(along with every single supplement I've seen listed on all these

lists) Bee Venom Therapy, Saunas, Samento, Herbals, Saunas - on and

on ad nauseum for a couple of *** DECADES *** .

And Yes.. I think some of those things worked (possibly even killed

some bacteria- but for sure not all).

And Yes.. alt. therapies kept me alive and functioning with a slower

decline than if I had been doing nothing.

But I had to have those abx to reach the level of health I have

now... but I'm not exactly sure they 'cured' me - (I avoid that

word).

Barb

> It seems to me that we should pay attention to people who

have had

> dramatic improvement in their conditions. Some may be skeptical and

> waiting to see relapse, but we should definitely take note. So that

> means we should look at what Tony, Barb, , a, etc and now

> , and hopefully Penny have all accomplished. We're all

different

> of course. Unfortunately my illness doesn't seem to match up

exactly

> to any of the examples we have, but you can bet I'm doing a lot of

> comparing and looking into what each one is saying. I'm not sure

why

> some people's claims are met with so much more disbelief than

others,

> but I hope this doesn't turn into an " I told you so " match.

>

> - Kate

>

[Guest guest]

Well, as usual, most people will think you're a jerk, Tony, for speaking that way, and THEN they'll assume of course that it's not infection and that the right supplements can fix this. It's a universal brainwashing that's been perpetuated on pwc and the public (the infection part, not you being a jerk). I don't know why, but my guess is it has something to do with $$ (and a massive hit to the economy if we face up to the problem). The unfortunate thing is, it causes even very smart people to start from the wrong premise because they're uninformed. It's like trying to map the galaxy based on astrology, 100% certain that the earth is the center of the universe and that the sun is just a shiny object in the sky. While we're still being distracted chasing wild geese, I'm afraid these organisms are going to become really, really bad in the future.

Mainly due to indifference and the continued misuse of antibiotics which is creating stronger and stronger organisms which have an ability to travel quickly around the globe now. I don't know what depresses me more, that, or reading the same cure stories over and over again. 15th verse, same as the first. dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...> wrote: DAvidI made a huge statement explaning the mess caused

around the sinus/teeth/head and also how clinically imnportant it is to have this viewed by the best methods possable, as most FUCKWITS in the medical proffesion will give you the NO INFECTION story. You come on here and fuken give us some song and dance how rich and his theories(sounds like benni hin) are fixing you up.You just forgot to mention the massive infection cut out of you enabling a body that's constantly diseased and vaso constricting, leading to blood volume losses and the like, and you got fixed with SUPPLEMENTS. I don't know how hard to laugh, or are you just naturally STUPID to think we beleive that you got fixed on a theory by someone that hasn't the foggiest what real cfs is all about.Now how Dumb am I to discuss the importance of the massive infection frequently found in the sinus or above the teeth?And you owned up to having this attended to on 2 occasions.MAte I must be fuken crazy or

something- because your whole cfs has had nothing to do with infection?I wonder what everyone else that read your posts thinks?tony> >> > ?> > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a MASSIVE > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT. Debriding > > and antibiotics> > > > ***Correct.> > > > ...And your the No Infection man. > > > > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses and> metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing remaining brain> inflammation and it is all

detoxing slowly as I progress, but jaw and> skull bacterial infection are gone.> > > > Dellusional is you > > buddy.> > > > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony. That's> what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years, decades.> > > > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass swearing > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something everyone else has > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations right they > > didn't...> > > > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation blocks> exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without a Yasko> and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the new level.> > > > > tony> > > >

***>

[Guest guest]

I agree. I'm not opposed at all to 's sharing. But I'd be more interested if it didn't come with such an adversarial/superior tone. Basically (paraphrased) 'Yasko and RK have it nailed' and 'get a clue, abx don't work'. As far as I can see, there's just nothing so far to support that (actually, more to support the opposite). But that doesn't mean I don't hope something good comes of these people's efforts. I definitely agree that we're here to explore everything. And most of us believe in an individualized, multi faceted approach, so that's not the problem. Since many of us know Tony, we know how to interpret his 'tone', but others don't, and it can be really off putting (not unsimilar to 's 'tone'). I do relate to Tony's frustration however. It's like watching people willingly being led to slaughter and you're standing on the sidelines screaming 'turn back!' And they

think you're the lunatic. When Tony dishes, he can take people dishing it back and lets it roll right off his back. Hopefully, 's the same way. penny Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: Tony..Calm down.Ever hear of using symbols like ** & & when you want to say the work Fu* & on-line??I for one LIKE to hear what he has to say..This list serves a purpose of

attracting some people who can and have used their own brain to improve their illness and therapy... What they have to say is worth listening to.But this list can be a little on the rough side.. you won't need to swear at anyone to get your point across.I'd not want to see anymore people get driven off becuase we have disagreements (haven't seen J here lately - that's too bad).If we start repeating the same-ole same ole.. the list will die a slow death.Barb> > >> > > ?> > > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a MASSIVE > > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT. > Debriding > > > and antibiotics> > > > > > > > ***Correct.> > > > > > > > ...And your the No Infection man. > > > > > > > > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses and> > metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing remaining brain> > inflammation and it is all detoxing slowly as I progress, but jaw > and> > skull bacterial infection are gone.> > > > > > > >

Dellusional is you > > > buddy.> > > > > > > > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony. That's> > what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years, decades.> > > > > > > > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass swearing > > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something everyone else > has > > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations right they > > > didn't...> > > > > > > > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation blocks> > exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without a > Yasko> > and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the new > level.> > > > > > > > > tony> > >

> > > > > ***> >>

[Guest guest]

Barb/Penny

I realise I shouldn't swear. Unfortunately I tend to be brash and

strong and upfront that I no longer tolerate beating around the bush

with anyone- this also includes medical proffesionals that will F**k

you over if you walk in there with the attitude displayed by most on

these forums...So if you see bad attitude by me on this forum, use

something similar in a smartly structured fashion to get somewhere a

lot sounder with your medical proffesionals and show people you mean

business when your going to hear someone make all these claims..I

just found it hard to tolerate that this guy is giving us the no-

infection story and it's all about the supplements.

Also here's selling us on Rich and his idea's and as I've told

rich SPEND SOME TIME WITH REAL CFS PEOPLE SO YOU CAN LEARN WHAT REAL

CFS IS..watch them go pee every half hour, feel there strong pulses,

watch them wince in pain, watch them walk around like there

intoxicated.Just freakin learn from them, don't study there lab

reports like all doctors do and give them a clean bill of

health..Yeah everything's in range crap(must be stress)..Also Barb,

DAvids 31 he is in this other ballpark from many over 40's that have

the strongly embedded scar tissue that won't allow an easy reversal

to good microcirculation and on to full hydration and just basically

a body full of harmonously working organs is more a possability at

his end of the scale.

tony

> > >

> > > ?

> > > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a MASSIVE

> > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT.

> Debriding

> > > and antibiotics

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Correct.

> >

> >

> >

> > ...And your the No Infection man.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses and

> > metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing remaining

brain

> > inflammation and it is all detoxing slowly as I progress, but jaw

> and

> > skull bacterial infection are gone.

> >

> >

> >

> > Dellusional is you

> > > buddy.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony. That's

> > what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years, decades.

> >

> >

> >

> > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass swearing

> > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something everyone

else

> has

> > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations right

they

> > > didn't...

> >

> >

> >

> > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation

blocks

> > exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without a

> Yasko

> > and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the new

> level.

> >

> >

> >

> > > tony

> >

> >

> >

> > ***

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It was my understanding that

, when he initially wrote, was fresh from, if not still attending,

the conference where Cheney spoke and Rich presented his latest paper.

So he's "pumped" with the possibilities and wants to share them. Some

people want to believe so badly that something huge is just around the

corner that they don't keep a sense of perspective. It's

understandable. You get more and more immune to that (maybe "jaded" is

the right word) the longer you are sick *and* the longer you don't see

improvement despite trying a variety of approaches. In 's case

he's been sick a long time but he has managed to see some improvement

and have some kind of life, and has experienced a fair amount of

success. We however haven't been that lucky and it makes us grind our

teeth any time someone says they have found "the" answer.

Look, CFS has such a lousy, wimpy case definition, and getting worse

all the time, that it doesn't even represent a specific target. There

can be no "one" answer as long as the CDC keeps watering it down and

bringing in even people, as they did in their latest "study", who are

so mildly-to-not-at-all sick that they don't even *realize* they have

an illness and just think they're tired like everyone is (which

basically they are). Even if you go back to the original 1988 case

definition you still are casting a broad enough net that there is

probably no "one" answer.

's misplaced enthusiasm aside, I'm glad that Rich, Yasko and

Cheney keep contributing in their own ways. I keep my thumb on the

pulse of that stuff and integrate it with everything else, but I don't

seriously think that one of them is going to have an "aha experience"

that will usher us all back into good health with minimal fuss.

's rejoinder will no doubt be that Yasko's protocol is highly

customized to the individual but in my experience that customization is

far from fool-proof. It reminds me of "Crabtree's Bludgeon", which is

sort of a foil to Occam's Razor: "No set of

mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human

intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated."

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

I agree. I'm not opposed at all to 's sharing. But I'd be

more interested if it didn't come with such an adversarial/superior

tone. Basically (paraphrased) 'Yasko and RK have it nailed' and 'get a

clue, abx don't work'. As far as I can see, there's just nothing so far

to support that (actually, more to support the opposite). But that

doesn't mean I don't hope something good comes of these

people's efforts.

I definitely agree that we're here to explore everything.

And most of us believe in an individualized, multi faceted approach, so

that's not the problem. Since many of us know Tony, we know how to

interpret his 'tone', but others don't, and it can be really off

putting (not unsimilar to 's 'tone'). I do relate to Tony's

frustration however. It's like watching people willingly being led to

slaughter and you're standing on the sidelines screaming 'tur n back!'

And they think you're the lunatic.

When Tony dishes, he can take people dishing it back and lets it

roll right off his back. Hopefully, 's the same way.

penny

Barb Peck <egroups1bp > wrote:

Tony..

Calm down.

Ever hear of using symbols like ** & & when you want to say the

work

Fu* & on-line??

I for one LIKE to hear what he has to say..

This list serves a purpose of attracting some people who can and have

used their own brain to improve their illness and therapy... What

they have to say is worth listening to.

But this list can be a little on the rough side.. you won't need to

swear at anyone to get your point across.

I'd not want to see anymore people get driven off becuase we have

disagreements (haven't seen J here lately - that's too bad).

If we start repeating the same-ole same ole.. the list will die a

slow death.

Barb

> > >

> > > ?

> > > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a

MASSIVE

> > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT.

> Debriding

> > > and antibiotics

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Correct.

> >

> >

> >

> > ...And your the No Infection man.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses

and

> > metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing

remaining

brain

> > inflammation and it is all detoxing slowly as I progress, but

jaw

> and

> > skull bacterial infection are gone.

> >

> >

> >

> > Dellusional is you

> > > buddy.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony.

That's

> > what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years,

decades.

> >

> >

> >

> > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass

swearing

> > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something

everyone

else

> has

> > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations

right

they

> > > didn't...

> >

> >

> >

> > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation

blocks

> > exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without

a

> Yasko

> > and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the

new

> level.

> >

> >

> >

> > > tony

> >

> >

> >

> > ***

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm waiting to hear about his past association with abx...

I think I remember him using them (but for what I can't remember).

Barb

> > > >

> > > > ?

> > > > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a

MASSIVE

> > > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT.

> > Debriding

> > > > and antibiotics

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Correct.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ...And your the No Infection man.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses

and

> > > metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing remaining

> brain

> > > inflammation and it is all detoxing slowly as I progress, but

jaw

> > and

> > > skull bacterial infection are gone.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dellusional is you

> > > > buddy.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony.

That's

> > > what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years,

decades.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass swearing

> > > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something everyone

> else

> > has

> > > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations right

> they

> > > > didn't...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation

> blocks

> > > exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without a

> > Yasko

> > > and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the

new

> > level.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > tony

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well he just told us that he had a jaw infection and a couple of debridements (surgical removal of infected/necrotic bone) and a "successful" implant. If he wasn't using abx during that, then he's got a super-human immune system and he should bank his bone marrow and create a super race. penny Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: I'm waiting to hear about his past association with abx...I think I remember him using them (but for what I can't

remember).Barb> > > >> > > > ?> > > > So your saying your primary doctor and your ENT found a MASSIVE > > > > INFECTION AROUND YOUR JAW AND WENT ABOUT ERADICATING IT. > > Debriding > > > > and antibiotics> > > > > > > > > > > > ***Correct.> >

> > > > > > > > > > ...And your the No Infection man. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***I didn't say this. Our brains are riddled with dna viruses and> > > metal toxins, so I still have more to go in reducing remaining > brain> > > inflammation and it is all detoxing slowly as I progress, but jaw > > and> > > skull bacterial infection are gone.> > > > > > > > > > > > Dellusional is you > > > > buddy.> > > > > > > > > > > > ***Abx aren't the only nor nesc the best tx choices, Tony. That's> > > what's delusional for anything f-ing up health for years, decades.> > > > > > > > > > > > And if this was still festering you'd be here buck ass

swearing > > > > black and blue your cured of cfs by doing something everyone > else > > has > > > > failed with- or better still you got the combinations right > they > > > > didn't...> > > > > > > > > > > > ***This latter statement could be true, different methylation > blocks> > > exist for each PWC. I may have unknowingly fixed them without a > > Yasko> > > and this allowed RenewPro to do its job and pull me up to the new > > level.> > > > > > > > > > > > > tony> > > > > > > > > > > > ***> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I certainly agree there seem to be gaps in his thinking -he is trying to boost

antioxidant enzyme production by assisting liver function but he is also using

corvalen - a substance t hat should boost ATP production - a dangerous

proposition if CFS patients have locked themselves into a low energy state in

order to peroxynitrite production. Then again maybe he thinks with better

functioning liver enzymes CFS patients can handle it. He certainly had an

interesting presentation.

I'm interested in why CFS patients may be hypoxic - ie why their cells are

found in low oxygen environments. I think theres more and more evidence for

that - I think vasoconstriction and problems with the microcirculation will be

really interested.

manuel_hbr <einfachzumerken@...> wrote:

Hi ,

that would be really nice. Since I have not been there I wonder how

such a congress works. Do the specialist all talk about their

experience and treatment approaches or do they discuss and release

new studies or info on CFS?

Could it be that CFS has different ways of symptom expression in

everyone of us e.g. some habe low Q while others have strong viral

activy? Unless it's one root cause wouldn't we all need different

ways of treatment and medication?

Greets

> > Hi, all.

> >

> > I just talked to my healthy friend, Potter, who attended

> > Thursday nights 2007 IACFS conference banquet on my behalf(nice to

> > have friends living near the vacinity of important conferences

like

> > this to get the early scoop!). Anyway, he actually got the keynote

> > presention at this banquet featuring Dr Cheney, M.D., Ph.D.,

> > video taped for me(I haven't reviewed it yet), but was able

to

> > communicate fairly effectively the gist of what happened in this

> > presentation.

> >

> > This communication allows me to offer you my impression of what

the

> > hole in the heart issue(called a PFO) is all about in CFS and how

to

> > heal or totally eliminate its possible negative impact, something

I

> > think many of you might appreciate. Of course it should be noted

that

> > the physician's and researcher's section of the 2007 IACFS

conference

> > is still proceding up through Sunday and my complete review of Dr

> > Cheney's presentation may yield more insight, but that said,

follows

> > is what I'm gathering cuts to the chase on the state of the art

in CFS.

> >

> > One, Dr Cheney has further deepened his understanding about the

> > details of the mechanisms following the acquired diastolic heart

> > dysfunction that happens in many PWCs, with the finding that

possibly

> > all PWCs have a PFO(hole in the heart like that found in roughly

> > 20-30% of the normal population). And this finding of PFOs in PWCs

> > Dr Cheney believes, probably accurately so from my layman's point

of

> > view, worsens or increases in size as result of the underlying

> > pathology of CFS and not the other way around.

> >

> > Two, Dr Cheney still has not yet solved in his own mind the cause

of

> > the energy deficit within the cells of PWCs hearts that leads to

CFS

> > diastolic heart dysfunction and the noted downstream

> > PFO size expansion. Apparently this remaining gap in his knowledge

> > left several attendees, including fellow CFS researcher, Rich Van

> > Konynenburg, Ph.D., and others, in a state of befuddlement

following

> > his presentation, as the solution to this heart cell energy

deficit in

> > CFS seems rather apparent to them at this point.

> >

> > As many of you know, Rich stands clear that it is the glutathione

> > depletion-methylation block issue in PWCs that is the cause of

their

> > heart cell energy deficit, their diastolic heart dysfunction and

all

> > other known CFS related symptoms they may have. FWIW and in my own

> > experience given some good quantifiable improvements in my own

case

> > from doing treatments consistent with this hypothesis, I think

Rich

> > has nailed the pathogenesis or root cause of CFS.

> >

> > More details need to be learned and further duplication of

findings

> > needs to be done for everything from CFS pathogenesis to end-stage

> > pathophysiology, diastolic cardiomyopathy being an example of

this, in

> > the research community. Nevertheless, it appears this so far

> > unshakeable hypothesis of cause by Rich is the CFS ringer!

> >

> > This naturally suggests treatment paths, several that have been

> > discussed on this list and others, with the Yasko treatment

approach

> > being one of the lastest and possibly most comprehensive plan

> > available to date. I think following this approach or other

treatment

> > paths consistent with Rich's glutathione depletion-methylation

block

> > hypothesis will eliminate the CFS heart cell energy deficit, the

> > diastolic heart dysfunction that follows and in result reduce to

> > benign size if not complete closure the PFOs currently being

found in

> > PWCs.

> >

> > This is the state of the art in CFS.

> >

> >

> >

>

---------------------------------

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Small Business.

[Guest guest]

Kate,

and I have one thing, at least, in common. We both improved a

LOT on undenatured whey protein. I've taken ImmunoPro for years along

with my antibiotics. He has also taken antibiotics for some period of

time, including the MP. I'm not trying to give him a hard time, or

Rich V either. I just want them to SPELL OUT what they think works

from Yasko. I really can't see where her stuff is new, different or

better. And I cannot imagine not using antibiotics if you know you

have live borrelia and mycoplasma incognitus and probably babesia.

Here is my big question: If the tests showed you had syphilis would

you just drink whey protein? Borrelia is ten times worse of a

spirochete than syphilis. I think antibiotics for years are

appropriate. Mycoplasma incognitus killed the first people who had

it. I think it is ten times worse than tuberculosis. I think

antibiotics for years are appropriate.

This is why I continue to call for Rich V and H. to defend

their position. Any let me repeat, I am not saying we should not be

taking the herbs and supplements they recommend. I just think tossing

out the longterm antibiotics for these severe infections is criminal.

a Carnes

>

> It seems to me that we should pay attention to people who have had

> dramatic improvement in their conditions. Some may be skeptical

and

> waiting to see relapse, but we should definitely take note. So

that

> means we should look at what Tony, Barb, , a, etc and now

> , and hopefully Penny have all accomplished. We're all

different

> of course. Unfortunately my illness doesn't seem to match up

exactly

> to any of the examples we have, but you can bet I'm doing a lot of

> comparing and looking into what each one is saying. I'm not sure

why

> some people's claims are met with so much more disbelief than

others,

> but I hope this doesn't turn into an " I told you so " match.

>

> - Kate

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Barb.

I think you a make a valid point. A war of attrition could have been

going on in any of the success stories people share and the treatments

they sense are key are the ones in which they attribute the entire

success.

I'm confident what I'm reporting is an accurate attribution, but is it

the entire story for which there is no real way for me or others to

absolutely know, who knows?

<egroups1bp@...> wrote:

>

> I think there's probably gaps we don't know about in 's

> therapy.. (but naybe not- - pls. correct me if I'm wrong)

>

> Almost every one that says some protocolis cured them (including the

> nam-less can't speak it' protocol) is comprised of people that had

> other antibiotic therapies first (that they don't mention). Most fail

> to mention them because they can't take them anymore- and don't think

> the worked- or made them worse (i.e. allergic to them and can't take

> them anymore).

>

> I'm the only person I know that did exclusively Alt. Therapies

> (along with every single supplement I've seen listed on all these

> lists) Bee Venom Therapy, Saunas, Samento, Herbals, Saunas - on and

> on ad nauseum for a couple of *** DECADES *** .

>

> And Yes.. I think some of those things worked (possibly even killed

> some bacteria- but for sure not all).

> And Yes.. alt. therapies kept me alive and functioning with a slower

> decline than if I had been doing nothing.

>

> But I had to have those abx to reach the level of health I have

> now... but I'm not exactly sure they 'cured' me - (I avoid that

> word).

>

>

>

> Barb

>

>

>

>

>

> > It seems to me that we should pay attention to people who

> have had

> > dramatic improvement in their conditions. Some may be skeptical and

> > waiting to see relapse, but we should definitely take note. So that

> > means we should look at what Tony, Barb, , a, etc and now

> > , and hopefully Penny have all accomplished. We're all

> different

> > of course. Unfortunately my illness doesn't seem to match up

> exactly

> > to any of the examples we have, but you can bet I'm doing a lot of

> > comparing and looking into what each one is saying. I'm not sure

> why

> > some people's claims are met with so much more disbelief than

> others,

> > but I hope this doesn't turn into an " I told you so " match.

> >

> > - Kate

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Penny.

<pennyhoule@...> wrote:

>

> I agree. I'm not opposed at all to 's sharing.

***Sure you're not. Right

But I'd be more interested if it didn't come with such an

adversarial/superior tone.

***Just gave back what was given to me first. You don't see this?

Basically (paraphrased) 'Yasko and RK have it nailed' and 'get a clue,

abx don't work'.

***You got it half right.

As far as I can see, there's just nothing so far to support that

(actually, more to support the opposite).

But that doesn't mean I don't hope something good comes of these

people's efforts.

>

> I definitely agree that we're here to explore everything. And most

of us believe in an individualized, multi faceted approach, so that's

not the problem. Since many of us know Tony, we know how to interpret

his 'tone', but others don't, and it can be really off putting (not

unsimilar to 's 'tone'). I do relate to Tony's frustration

however. It's like watching people willingly being led to slaughter

and you're standing on the sidelines screaming 'turn back!' And they

think you're the lunatic.

>

> When Tony dishes, he can take people dishing it back and lets it

roll right off his back. Hopefully, 's the same way.

***I have, but do you need to alway come into to defend his antics

after just about every other post like you're his wife? You do do

this you know and biased moderating isn't moderating that I want

anything to do with.

***

> penny

>

>

> Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote:

> Tony..

> Calm down.

> Ever hear of using symbols like ** & & when you want to say the work

> Fu* & on-line??

> I for one LIKE to hear what he has to say..

>

> This list serves a purpose of attracting some people who can and have

> used their own brain to improve their illness and therapy... What

> they have to say is worth listening to.

>

> But this list can be a little on the rough side.. you won't need to

> swear at anyone to get your point across.

> I'd not want to see anymore people get driven off becuase we have

> disagreements (haven't seen J here lately - that's too bad).

>

> If we start repeating the same-ole same ole.. the list will die a

> slow death.

>

> Barb

[Guest guest]

a

Well put.I have no problems with taking anything as long as your

addressing the key issues... which still stand out ot be infection

and coagulation plus some.

-

-- In infections , " pjeanneus "

<pj7@...> wrote:

>

> Kate,

> and I have one thing, at least, in common. We both improved a

> LOT on undenatured whey protein. I've taken ImmunoPro for years

along

> with my antibiotics. He has also taken antibiotics for some period

of

> time, including the MP. I'm not trying to give him a hard time, or

> Rich V either. I just want them to SPELL OUT what they think works

> from Yasko. I really can't see where her stuff is new, different or

> better. And I cannot imagine not using antibiotics if you know you

> have live borrelia and mycoplasma incognitus and probably babesia.

>

> Here is my big question: If the tests showed you had syphilis would

> you just drink whey protein? Borrelia is ten times worse of a

> spirochete than syphilis. I think antibiotics for years are

> appropriate. Mycoplasma incognitus killed the first people who had

> it. I think it is ten times worse than tuberculosis. I think

> antibiotics for years are appropriate.

>

> This is why I continue to call for Rich V and H. to defend

> their position. Any let me repeat, I am not saying we should not be

> taking the herbs and supplements they recommend. I just think

tossing

> out the longterm antibiotics for these severe infections is

criminal.

>

> a Carnes

>

> >

> > It seems to me that we should pay attention to people who have

had

> > dramatic improvement in their conditions. Some may be skeptical

> and

> > waiting to see relapse, but we should definitely take note. So

> that

> > means we should look at what Tony, Barb, , a, etc and

now

> > , and hopefully Penny have all accomplished. We're all

> different

> > of course. Unfortunately my illness doesn't seem to match up

> exactly

> > to any of the examples we have, but you can bet I'm doing a lot

of

> > comparing and looking into what each one is saying. I'm not sure

> why

> > some people's claims are met with so much more disbelief than

> others,

> > but I hope this doesn't turn into an " I told you so " match.

> >

> > - Kate

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I call Tony on his "antics" all the time. You don't see that???? He's hardheaded and in your face. So what? He's not going to change. Either are you apparently. No skin off my nose, but you're both still free to share your opinons here aren't you? I have one goal and that's to get well and help others get well. And to find out what works. The rest of it, people's bruised egos, etc., I could really care less. pennydavidhall2020 <davidhall@...> wrote: Hi, Penny.<pennyhoule@...> wrote:>> I agree. I'm not opposed at all to 's sharing. ***Sure you're not. Right ;)But I'd be more interested if it didn't come with such anadversarial/superior tone. ***Just gave back what was given to me first. You don't see this? Basically (paraphrased) 'Yasko and RK have it nailed' and 'get a clue,abx don't work'. ***You got it half right.As far as I can see, there's just nothing so far to support that(actually, more to support the opposite). But that doesn't mean I don't hope something good comes of thesepeople's efforts.> > I definitely agree that we're here to explore everything. And mostof us believe in an individualized, multi faceted approach, so that'snot the problem. Since many of us know Tony, we know how to interprethis 'tone',

but others don't, and it can be really off putting (notunsimilar to 's 'tone'). I do relate to Tony's frustrationhowever. It's like watching people willingly being led to slaughterand you're standing on the sidelines screaming 'turn back!' And theythink you're the lunatic. > > When Tony dishes, he can take people dishing it back and lets itroll right off his back. Hopefully, 's the same way.***I have, but do you need to alway come into to defend his anticsafter just about every other post like you're his wife? You do dothis you know and biased moderating isn't moderating that I wantanything to do with.***> penny> > > Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote:> Tony..> Calm down.> Ever hear of using symbols like ** & & when you want to say the work > Fu* & on-line??> I for one LIKE to hear what he has to say..>

> This list serves a purpose of attracting some people who can and have > used their own brain to improve their illness and therapy... What > they have to say is worth listening to.> > But this list can be a little on the rough side.. you won't need to > swear at anyone to get your point across.> I'd not want to see anymore people get driven off becuase we have > disagreements (haven't seen J here lately - that's too bad).> > If we start repeating the same-ole same ole.. the list will die a > slow death.> > Barb

[Guest guest]

What your missing with me is that my attitude reflects the severity

of the disease and the stance needed to be taken at every turn when

your dealing with this disease.You see everything else everyione else

has brought to these forums is that after 1000's of doctor/specialist

visits and alternatives they sit across the table and take in what's

lumped on them.MY approach is I'm coming over to your side of the

table and having a say in the whole business of MY HEALTH..

How many pick up that there doctor's has given out 1000's of CT scans

knowing full well the outcome is pointless?I've given my doctor back

a CT scan he ordered because me and him agreed that it truly was just

a joke and it wasn't going to get us results.They have many rituals

your performing, like a dance, that makes everything look like

stuffs happening. You have to toughen yourselves and not waste any

oppurtunity to shine some lighht on what is wrong with you..

I mean how angry do I get when I read Cheney stories- The guy sits at

the heart of an airborne pathogen some decades earlier and has been

story telling since.I think that if you have a patient that shows

diminished function in several area's you should take him in and look

at him from top to bottom- perform biopsies- basically run the gammit

to get a suitable explanation for what is going on.This guy see's

patient after patient charges thousands of doillars discussing

theories with them and now has discovered they all have heart disease.

How exciting to be one of his patients NOT!!!!!!!.

tony

> > Tony..

> > Calm down.

> > Ever hear of using symbols like ** & & when you want to say the

work

> > Fu* & on-line??

> > I for one LIKE to hear what he has to say..

> >

> > This list serves a purpose of attracting some people who can and

have

> > used their own brain to improve their illness and therapy... What

> > they have to say is worth listening to.

> >

> > But this list can be a little on the rough side.. you won't need

to

> > swear at anyone to get your point across.

> > I'd not want to see anymore people get driven off becuase we have

> > disagreements (haven't seen J here lately - that's too bad).

> >

> > If we start repeating the same-ole same ole.. the list will die a

> > slow death.

> >

> > Barb

>