Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jack.

I am specifically interested in papers that discuss what immune function the HLA-DR haplotypes encode for. In other words, what do these genes do when they are expressed?

I am not interested in all things HLA.

Steve

Steve: The building that I saw was not renovated as I recall. My walk

through the building did not reveal renovation.

I will look for some papers on the HLA phenotypes. There are several

diseases associated with it. Currently, I am searching the literature of HLA

and psoriasis. During the search I will look for some solid reviews and

hopefully post them.

I do have Shoemaker's papers if you do not have them. I will send them to

you personally if you wish. They make an interesting story.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

[Guest guest]

As someone who has left clothing for days in the washing machine, I find the odor never goes away, even after rewashing. If it were bacterial VOC’s wouldn’t

this be eliminated the next time the clothes were washed?

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of Moffett

Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:27 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

Jack,

Clothing left in a washing machine overnight can produce a musty odor. I don't believe the odor is a result of mold growth but bacteria. Has anybody

spent the time to identify the organism(s) producing the musty odor?

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:31 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

There are two genera of bacteria in the indoor environment that are water

loving: Pseudomonas and Proteus spp. We have found Pseudomonas in every

house and boiling we have done. Proteus is less common, but can be found

were water content is 0.9 to 1.0 (activity speaking)

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

As someone who has left clothing for days in the washing machine, I find the odor never goes away, even after rewashing. If it were bacterial VOC’s wouldn’t this be eliminated the next time the clothes were washed?

In my experience with VOCs and clothing, the fabric or material itself has a lot to do with absorption/adsorption and desorption. For example, 100% cotton will absorb and release VOCs much differently than a polyester fleece material would.

The real disaster occurs when everything gets cross-contaminated in the clothes dryer.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

Alice

Yes, it likely would, but if the bacteria modifies the fibers or other components of the fabric we may then be sensing a decomposition product; I fear that we often take too simple a model of the possible processes. Some of the leading edge system science in regular physics, and other areas of science, is starting to accumulate evidence that we have long built overly-simplified models and theories; they are good for most cases, but not all. This over-simplification has sometimes mislead us in where we should be looking and made us too positive of our inclination to classify outliers as bad data; often it is not. When you ask the wrong questions the probability of getting good answers goes way down; way, way down.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics>>> Pseudomonas>>> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is, > how> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?>> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not > only have> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time > day.> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to> listen.>> Sharon>> Sharon Noonan Kramer>

[Guest guest]

Jim: the only data I have seen is the presence MVOCs. No specific

identification of organisms.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

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This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

When I have time and will get to this. However, I doubt that you specific

question at this stage will be difficult to fully answer.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> Thanks, Jack.

>

> I am specifically interested in papers that discuss what immune function

> the HLA-DR haplotypes encode for. In other words, what do these genes do

> when

> they are expressed?

>

> I am not interested in all things HLA.

>

> Steve

>

> In a message dated 8/12/2011 9:01:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> toxicologist1@... writes:

>> Steve: The building that I saw was not renovated as I recall. My walk

>> through the building did not reveal renovation.

>>

>> I will look for some papers on the HLA phenotypes. There are several

>> diseases associated with it. Currently, I am searching the literature of

>> HLA

>> and psoriasis. During the search I will look for some solid reviews and

>> hopefully post them.

>>

>> I do have Shoemaker's papers if you do not have them. I will send them to

>> you personally if you wish. They make an interesting story.

>>

>> Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

>> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

>> www.drthrasher.org

>> toxicologist1@...

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

I have not left wet clothing in a washing machine. I have answered to best

of my knowledge. There have been other suggestions on this site.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

Jack

This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should really have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc. The speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I see it? I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in 1998; it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J. if you do not already have it. (systemsc@...)

Jim

Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics>>> Pseudomonas>>> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,> how> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?>> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not> only have> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time> day.> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to> listen.>> Sharon>> Sharon Noonan Kramer>

[Guest guest]

: I understand regarding the U.S. egos. However the Europeans are very

active in these issues today. I am familiar with the papers by Dale. I will

look into searching for and Dale. Thank you.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jim: I found the papers by and Dales dating back as early as

1997.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

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you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

Jack

The analysis of the samples was done as a thesis product by Dr. and some of the detail work is presented on the web site of Sporometrics, a firm that he started. He is now looking at virus identification but sure did a lot of work in fungal identification and what worked as well a what did not and why.

Jim

Try a search on 'Dr. & Sporometrics' and another on 'Wallaceburg and Dr. .'

Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics>>> Pseudomonas>>> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,> how> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?>> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not> only have> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time> day.> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to> listen.>> Sharon>> Sharon Noonan Kramer>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, I will dig further. I am involved in two EL-HI school situations

along the Coast of California. Children and teachers are ill. They want to

cure the problem by doing biocide treatments of wood and A.C. systems. We

have looked at the A.C. system dust in the first the school. Yes, bacteria,

mold and mycotoxins are present in respirable dust. The superintendant of

the second school has a law degree and Dr.E. He is using the classic

arguments in communication with the parents that the insurance companies and

defense experts use. Therefore, they are treating the school with biocides

and are limiting the removal of contaminated materials and are not taking

care of the water intrusion. Insanity.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that are known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB. There is no evidence to refute this fact.

So the questions become, "Why is this not policy?" or "Why is it so slow to become policy?"

There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:

1. promote what IS science in policy; and

2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.

OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold & Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure

Sharon

Jack

This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should really have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc. The speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I see it? I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in 1998; it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J. if you do not already have it. (systemsc@...)

Jim

[Guest guest]

Sharon: I completely agree with you. The indoor air is a soup: bacteria,

fungi and their by-products, VOCs, MVOCs, insecticides, etc.

A simple dose response for a single contaminant, e.g. mold spores, is

insufficient. There are interactions that need to be considered.

For example, I have seen too many test results for mold spore counts. The

subject of fine particulates, less than one micron into the nano range is

missed in these reports. Below are some examples of recent literature

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/7/3522

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19745206

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204988

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732855

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21802019

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2153459/pdf/nihms35332.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012949

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that are

> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.

> There is no evidence to refute this fact.

>

> So the questions become, " Why is this not policy? " or " Why is it so slow

> to

> become policy? "

>

> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:

> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and

> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.

>

>

> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold &

> Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_

>

(http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-rega\

rding-poor-indoor-ai

> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)

>

> Sharon

>

>

>

> In a message dated 8/12/2011 5:31:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> systemsc@... writes:

>

> Jack

> This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it

> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should really

> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc.

> The

> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers

> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to

> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I

> see it?

> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in

> 1998;

> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in

> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am

> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J.

>

> if you do not already have it. (_systemsc@..._

> (mailto:systemsc@...) )

> Jim

>

>

[Guest guest]

Right. Toxic soup.

Which leads to another recent discussion on this board,

To test or not to test; and

what to test for; and

when to test for what; and

what can the test results be used to determine; and

what can the test results not be used to determine?.

I THINK we concluded pre-testing for mold doesn't help in most cases to know what needs to be done. But post testing can possibly be an indicator that contaminants were successfully removed or not.

I THINK we concluded that pre-testing for one contaminant can be used as a base line of success/not success of remediation, when compared with post testing for the same and other contaminants.

But what we didn't really get into is the usefulness of testing to determine what is making someone sick; and what people need to be tested for to make the causal/contributor connection.

Sharon

Sharon: I completely agree with you. The indoor air is a soup: bacteria, fungi and their by-products, VOCs, MVOCs, insecticides, etc.A simple dose response for a single contaminant, e.g. mold spores, is insufficient. There are interactions that need to be considered.For example, I have seen too many test results for mold spore counts. The subject of fine particulates, less than one micron into the nano range is missed in these reports. Below are some examples of recent literaturehttp://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/7/3522http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19745206http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204988http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732855http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21802019http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2153459/pdf/nihms35332.pdfhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012949Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that are> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.> There is no evidence to refute this fact.>> So the questions become, "Why is this not policy?" or "Why is it so slow > to> become policy?">> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.>>> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold & > Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_> (http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-regarding-poor-indoor-ai> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)>> Sharon>>>> >> Jack> This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should really> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc. > The> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I > see it?> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in > 1998;> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J. > > if you do not already have it. (_systemsc@..._> (mailto:systemsc@...) )> Jim

[Guest guest]

Sharon: Yes, the connection is the key. In a recent situation we isolated

both bacteria and mold from sinus surgical materials of two individuals with

debilitating chronic sinusitis associated with the occupancy of a water

damaged home. The environmental testing revealed the presence of the

specific bacteria and molds in these two cases. The family was well before

renting the home, became ill after moving into the home, they have since

moved from the contaminated home, but remain ill. Both adults and the two

children still have indications of sinusitis, even after surgical

intervention in the father and daughter.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that

>> are

>> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.

>> There is no evidence to refute this fact.

>>

>> So the questions become, " Why is this not policy? " or " Why is it so slow

>> to

>> become policy? "

>>

>> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:

>> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and

>> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.

>>

>>

>> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold &

>> Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_

>>

>

(_http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-reg\

arding-poor-indoor-ai_

>

(http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-rega\

rding-poor-indoor-ai)

>> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)

>>

>> Sharon

>>

>>

>>

>> In a message dated 8/12/2011 5:31:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

>> _systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) writes:

>>

>> Jack

>> This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it

>> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should

>> really

>> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc.

>> The

>> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers

>> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to

>> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I

>

>> see it?

>> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in

>> 1998;

>> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in

>> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am

>> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J.

>>

>> if you do not already have it. (__systemsc@..._

> (mailto:_systemsc@...) _

>> (mailto:_systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) ) )

>> Jim

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tnank you so much, Sharon.

Steve Temes

Right. Toxic soup.

Which leads to another recent discussion on this board,

To test or not to test; and

what to test for; and

when to test for what; and

what can the test results be used to determine; and

what can the test results not be used to determine?.

I THINK we concluded pre-testing for mold doesn't help in most cases to know what needs to be done. But post testing can possibly be an indicator that contaminants were successfully removed or not.

I THINK we concluded that pre-testing for one contaminant can be used as a base line of success/not success of remediation, when compared with post testing for the same and other contaminants.

But what we didn't really get into is the usefulness of testing to determine what is making someone sick; and what people need to be tested for to make the causal/contributor connection.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

All I can say is that my projects all have a budget. My client goals are to indentify problem areas and provide a scope of work to remove microbial contamination. Is there any situation, beyond the first 24 hours, where bacteria growth, without mold growth would occur on water damaged building materials. It would be nice to test for everything, but this is the real world. How does spending untold dollars on testing for bacteria, mycotoxins, mvocs...etc.. provide the client with a better environment? Would the money be better spent on cleaning? If you get run over by a car does it really matter if it is a yugo or mercedes?

Sherry

To: iequality Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:18 PMSubject: Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

Sharon: Yes, the connection is the key. In a recent situation we isolated both bacteria and mold from sinus surgical materials of two individuals with debilitating chronic sinusitis associated with the occupancy of a water damaged home. The environmental testing revealed the presence of the specific bacteria and molds in these two cases. The family was well before renting the home, became ill after moving into the home, they have since moved from the contaminated home, but remain ill. Both adults and the two children still have indications of sinusitis, even after surgical intervention in the father and daughter.Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED.,

LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: Re: CIH Bashing &

Ethics>>> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that >> are>> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.>> There is no evidence to refute this fact.>>>> So the questions become, "Why is this not policy?" or "Why is it so slow>> to>> become policy?">>>> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:>> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and>> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.>>>>>> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold & >> Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_>>> (_http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-regarding-poor-indoor-ai_> (http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-regarding-poor-indoor-ai)>> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)>>>> Sharon>>>>>>>> In a message dated 8/12/2011 5:31:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,>> _systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) writes:>>>> Jack>> This was the first international study that

analyzed for all species; it>> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should >> really>> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc.>> The>> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers>> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to>> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I>>> see it?>> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in>> 1998;>> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in>> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am>> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J.>> >> if you do not already have it. (__systemsc@..._> (mailto:_systemsc@...) _>> (mailto:_systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) ) )>> Jim>>

[Guest guest]

Jack, The issue of size respirable particle (which the reference you cited) discuss is an area of research thatwe have been actively pursuing for a number of years. We have a database of over 400 samples with culturable, total spore and particle counts from various locations. We have data from airplanes, conference centers, high rise buildings, in addition the typical environments. We also have an extensive reference file on this subject. This is something that has been discussed since the Denora Penn. 1948 air quality mortality. I got to play with an integrating Nephelometer for years researching aerosol particulates. The development of ultrafine particle detectors have added significantly to the research and backgroundparticle count data. We have developed mathematical interpretive models to integrate ultrafine and respirable particle counts. We are considering authoring a book about particle norms in various environments. However, that is at least 2 years away. This is not as variable as one might imagine and it follows clear mathematical models and physical laws. We submit a research funding proposal on this subject to XXXX but it was not funded. So we have gone ahead andfunded this research ourselves. This situation is similar to the HEPA filter testing. We submit a research funding proposal on this subject to XXXX but it was not funded. We went ahead and did the research ourselves ( along with our other professional friends who also contributed data) and now are publishing a book on this subject.BobOn Aug 14, 2011, at 12:00 PM, Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D. wrote:

Sharon: I completely agree with you. The indoor air is a soup: bacteria,

fungi and their by-products, VOCs, MVOCs, insecticides, etc.

A simple dose response for a single contaminant, e.g. mold spores, is

insufficient. There are interactions that need to be considered.

For example, I have seen too many test results for mold spore counts. The

subject of fine particulates, less than one micron into the nano range is

missed in these reports. Below are some examples of recent literature

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/7/3522

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19745206

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204988

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732855

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21802019

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2153459/pdf/nihms35332.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012949

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that are

> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.

> There is no evidence to refute this fact.

>

> So the questions become, "Why is this not policy?" or "Why is it so slow

> to

> become policy?"

>

> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:

> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and

> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.

>

>

> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold &

> Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_

> (http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-regarding-poor-indoor-ai

> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)

>

> Sharon

>

>

>

> In a message dated 8/12/2011 5:31:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> systemsc@... writes:

>

> Jack

> This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it

> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should really

> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc.

> The

> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers

> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to

> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I

> see it?

> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in

> 1998;

> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in

> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am

> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J.

>

> if you do not already have it. (_systemsc@..._

> (mailto:systemsc@...) )

> Jim

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon- typically IHs conduct persoal sampling with a wearable sampler to

associate exposure with health efffects. An alternative is to conduct sapling of

the affected person such as skin contamination or nasal wash conducted by

medical personnel.

Sherryl Schultz, PhD, CIH, CSP, LEED AP

ihspirit@...

>Right. Toxic soup.

>

>Which leads to another recent discussion on this board,

>To test or not to test; and

>what to test for; and

>when to test for what; and

>what can the test results be used to determine; and

>what can the test results not be used to determine?.

>

>I THINK we concluded pre-testing for mold doesn't help in most cases to

>know what needs to be done. But post testing can possibly be an indicator that

> contaminants were successfully removed or not.

>

>I THINK we concluded that pre-testing for one contaminant can be used as a

>base line of success/not success of remediation, when compared with post

>testing for the same and other contaminants.

>

>But what we didn't really get into is the usefulness of testing to

>determine what is making someone sick; and what people need to be tested for to

>make the causal/contributor connection.

>

>Sharon

>

>

>

>

>In a message dated 8/14/2011 10:20:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

>toxicologist1@... writes:

>

>Sharon: I completely agree with you. The indoor air is a soup: bacteria,

>fungi and their by-products, VOCs, MVOCs, insecticides, etc.

>

>A simple dose response for a single contaminant, e.g. mold spores, is

>insufficient. There are interactions that need to be considered.

>For example, I have seen too many test results for mold spore counts. The

>subject of fine particulates, less than one micron into the nano range is

>missed in these reports. Below are some examples of recent literature

>

>_http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/7/3522_

>(http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/7/3522)

>

>_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19745206_

>(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19745206)

>

>_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204988_

>(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204988)

>

>_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732855_

>(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732855)

>

>_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21802019_

>(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21802019)

>

>_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2153459/pdf/nihms35332.pdf_

>(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2153459/pdf/nihms35332.pdf)

>

>_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012949_

>(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012949)

>

>Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

>Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

>www.drthrasher.org

>_toxicologist1@..._ (mailto:toxicologist1@...)

>

>Cell:

>

> Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

>Trauma Specialist

>_sandracrawley@..._ (mailto:sandracrawley@...)

>

> - Cell

>

>This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

>privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

>message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

>prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

>message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

>you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to

>advise

>the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

>copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

>

> Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that are

>> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.

>> There is no evidence to refute this fact.

>>

>> So the questions become, " Why is this not policy? " or " Why is it so slow

>> to

>> become policy? "

>>

>> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:

>> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and

>> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.

>>

>>

>> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold &

>> Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_

>>

>(_http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-re\

garding-poor-indoor-ai_

>(http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-reg\

arding-poor-indoor-ai)

>> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)

>>

>> Sharon

>>

>>

>>

>> In a message dated 8/12/2011 5:31:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

>> _systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) writes:

>>

>> Jack

>> This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it

>> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should really

>> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc.

>> The

>> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers

>> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to

>> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I

>

>> see it?

>> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in

>> 1998;

>> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in

>> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am

>> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J.

>>

>> if you do not already have it. (__systemsc@..._

>(mailto:_systemsc@...) _

>> (mailto:_systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) ) )

>> Jim

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sherryl,

What is a wearable sampler? Never heard that term before.

Sharon

Sharon- typically IHs conduct persoal sampling with a wearable sampler to associate exposure with health efffects. An alternative is to conduct sapling of the affected person such as skin contamination or nasal wash conducted by medical personnel.Sherryl Schultz, PhD, CIH, CSP, LEED AP

[Guest guest]

,

Right. If one just wants to clean a WDB - and no one is sick, a lot of testing doesn't really give any info of value. But if someone is sick, testing the building and the person can help to give proper treatment.

We have friend whose daughter is a star college field hockey player. She picked up some weird bacteria somewhere in everyday life (I can't remember the name of it). She could have died had they not been able to diagnose it. Had a piccline for about two months.

IF there are contaminants in building that determine what kind of treatment is required, then testing can be of the utmost importance.

I guess it boils down to first having to determine what one wants to know from testing, before they can decide if, where and when to test.

Sharon

All I can say is that my projects all have a budget. My client goals are to indentify problem areas and provide a scope of work to remove microbial contamination. Is there any situation, beyond the first 24 hours, where bacteria growth, without mold growth would occur on water damaged building materials. It would be nice to test for everything, but this is the real world. How does spending untold dollars on testing for bacteria, mycotoxins, mvocs...etc.. provide the client with a better environment? Would the money be better spent on cleaning? If you get run over by a car does it really matter if it is a yugo or mercedes?

Sherry

To: iequality Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:18 PMSubject: Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

Sharon: Yes, the connection is the key. In a recent situation we isolated both bacteria and mold from sinus surgical materials of two individuals with debilitating chronic sinusitis associated with the occupancy of a water damaged home. The environmental testing revealed the presence of the specific bacteria and molds in these two cases. The family was well before renting the home, became ill after moving into the home, they have since moved from the contaminated home, but remain ill. Both adults and the two children still have indications of sinusitis, even after surgical intervention in the father and daughter.Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics>>> There is no doubt about the true science - multiple contaminants that >> are>> known to individually cause illness, are present collectively in WDB.>> There is no evidence to refute this fact.>>>> So the questions become, "Why is this not policy?" or "Why is it so slow>> to>> become policy?">>>> There are two sides to this elephant to solving this problem:>> 1. promote what IS science in policy; and>> 2. remove what IS NOT science from policy.>>>>>> _OSHA Issues Federal Advisory Regarding Poor Indoor Air Quality, Mold & >> Importance Of Building Maintenance | Katy's Exposure_>>> (_http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-fede ral-advisory-regarding-poor-indoor-ai_> (http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/osha-issues-federal-advisory-regarding-poor-indoor-ai)>> r-quality-importance-of-building-maintenance/)>>>> Sharon>>>>>>>> In a message dated 8/12/2011 5:31:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,>> _systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) writes:>>>> Jack>> This was the first international study that analyzed for all species; it>> was done primarily with my budget, even tho the health part should >> really>> have been funded by others. See papers by J.D. and R.Dales etc.>> The>> speciation was very detailed and a number of agars were used. The papers>> started coming out about 1995 or so because there was some reluctance to>> believe that Canadians could do leading edge work; or is that just how I>>> see it?>> I arranged for a study on babies, mold and health before I retired in>> 1998;>> it was in Prince Island and took some of the lessons learned in>> Wallaceburg a bit further. I have no access to the results because I am>> retired. You might want to contact me to get contact information from J.>> >> if you do not already have it. (__systemsc@..._> (mailto:_systemsc@...) _>> (mailto:_systemsc@..._ (mailto:systemsc@...) ) )>> Jim>>

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