Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

[Guest guest]

: very appropriate. Apparently there are certain individuals who would

rather bash than seek the truth.

Below is an example of what I am referring to

I have tried to communicate with Jack before in another forum. I am trying

to get him to actually be scientific. I totally resent his academic bullying

tactics and responses that amount to " look it up for yourself " .

I am 'guessing' that he isn't getting paid to provide information or do

research and therefore, figures listees are capable of doing their own

research....as when you testify, as you know, you have to have the science

behind your statements???

He won't/can't answer a direct question. Even though he works for the " good

guys " , I view him as a plaintiff expert blowhard. He is a big phony in my

book.

Trust me he is so far removed from being a phony you have no idea. HE is

the real deal in every aspect.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

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Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

Wane, others,

This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary

of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

It concerns expertise and ability.

I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of

the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

reports or opinion?

I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and

am intelligent.

As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do

is simply prove them wrong.

The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who

merely claim to know what they are talking about!

Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing

the public.

How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by

initials after a last name?

[Guest guest]

Myh: thank you. The Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland and Sweden) have

contributed much to our understanding of microbial contamination of indoor

environments. I have yet to see a " dry " indoor environment.

What constitutes dryness?

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

SV: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

One good motto in life is :

" The more I learn , the more I learn how much I have to learn !

Those who forget this and is stuck up on their high horses are the ones who

quite often tends to fall into the category " arrogante, pretending to know

it all persons " ....

You find them both with credentials and without credentials.

(And I just learned that I have to learn more about american spelling )

Mvh

Ole erik , Norway

Fra: iequality [mailto:iequality ] På vegne

av

Sendt: 10. august 2011 16:17

Til: iequality

Emne: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

Wane, others,

This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary

of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

It concerns expertise and ability.

I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of

the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

reports or opinion?

I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and

am intelligent.

As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do

is simply prove them wrong.

The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who

merely claim to know what they are talking about!

Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing

the public.

How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by

initials after a last name?

[Guest guest]

Jack, I sincerely apologize to you that I suggested you join this board made up of professional IAQ "good guys" to help others become more aware and to be able to discuss that bacteria also appears to be playing a role in the synergistic causes of illness from WDB. I am sorry if this aided to cause gossip mongering.

Some seem baffled as to what causes the ACOEM mold statement to still be able to be used by the defense in mold litigation -- when it has been scientifically discredited many times over, including by the Federal GAO and WHO.

A large part of the answer is, "they" don't need to trash the "good guys" to continue to sell doubt of causation when the "good guys" will do it for them.

C'mon guys! Attack a thought. Attack a concept. Prove your point. Unless you can PROVE motivation is dishonorable and words are known to be false; don't attack each others' character or assume and assign motivation for the other person's words.

You are killin' us by aiding doubt of causation of illness from WDB to be able to flourish by character assassinating each other -- who are on the same side of trying to advance the science.

Cut it out, guys. No matter what kind of degree one may or may not have, gossip is hurtful and harms us all.

WR,

Sharon

: very appropriate. Apparently there are certain individuals who would rather bash than seek the truth.Below is an example of what I am referring toI have tried to communicate with Jack before in another forum. I am trying to get him to actually be scientific. I totally resent his academic bullying tactics and responses that amount to "look it up for yourself".I am 'guessing' that he isn't getting paid to provide information or do research and therefore, figures listees are capable of doing their own research....as when you testify, as you know, you have to have the science behind your statements???He won't/can't answer a direct question. Even though he works for the "good guys", I view him as a plaintiff expert blowhard. He is a big phony in my book.Trust me he is so far removed from being a phony you have no idea. HE is the real deal in every aspect.Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: CIH Bashing & EthicsWane, others,This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.It concerns expertise and ability.I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of the "engineer". How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's reports or opinion?I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and am intelligent.As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do is simply prove them wrong.The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who merely claim to know what they are talking about!Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing the public.How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by initials after a last name?

[Guest guest]

, Well said. As you know, I am an old timer in this field, I started my environmental career with outdoor and indoor mold sampling in 1964. Back in the 60s, when you wanted to learn about mold exposure, there were only 2 medical (NOT engineering) texts on the subject. Feinberg and Tuft. There was a little published by NIOSH on bioaerosol sampling when the cotton dust standard was in vogue in the 1970s. However, this stuff about engineering or other education and credential is really a smoke screen. The facts are the until only very recently did CIHs have to know anything about mold. Standard engineering curriculums don't teach you anything about mold. UNLESS you specifically studied and sought out references on these subjects in college (which i did) you were not taught this information. That is why there are so many MORE KNOWLEDGABLE people in this field who were educated in the hands-ons real world field - this is information you have to learn in the real world with hands-on experience.I deal with these "real world" experience-educated people all the time. AND I TRUST their opinions more often than CIHs, and others who use their college degrees to pretend that they know what they are doing. However, the reality is there is SERIOUS dearth of information in this field. The bioaerosol sampling books by AIHA and others, only contain limited information and generalities. Even more interesting, the recent "green" book is not an AIHA document, but a book by others that AIHA sells. Exactly, how does this "new" information get to people who graduated from school years ago? The same what it gets to the hands-on "real world" people. They read the books. So "real world" people level of education is NO DIFFERENT than old time college people who did not seek out a special education curriculum.A good lawyer can use these facts to their clients advantage. Even getting educated in this field today is very difficult. There are no texts transferring the mold and bacteria control experience from the clean room industry to the mold remediation industry. There are books on mold exposure standards in the US. (A friend of mine published one in Poland in polish). Yet, these have been used in the pharmaceutical and medical device industry and other countries for years. So I wrote a Mold Exposure standards book to share my experience and knowledge.I applaud the books by IICRC. They do try to provide some standardization and information on the remediation processes. But there are only generalities on PRV by 10 other organizations. The pharmaceutical and medical device industry and clean room industries have very specific "cleanliness assurance" procedures. So I wrote a PRV book to share my experience and knowledge.There are no books that deal with testing of portable HEPA filtered equipment in the mold, asbestos, and lead abatement industries. Even though DOE, the nuclear power and weapons industry, the clean room industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the aerospace industry, the medical device industry, the electronics industry, etc. ALL KNOW THESE DEVICE LEAK AND FAIL. The mold, asbestos, and lead abatement industries MUST have MAGIC HEPA filters that don't leak or fail. So I wrote a book on how to test HEPA filters to share my experience and knowledge.There were many unresearched questions about inter-laboratory mold sample analysis variability, bacteria levels in water, particle counting, and so on. So I funded research to answer these questions and published the results. My latest venture is a video documentary on "Mutant Mold in Outer Space." (this will be my 4th video documentary).It has pictures of mold on Mir and the ISS and other really interesting and thought provoking information on whether we can ever control mold growth in human space ships. We have offered to show this video at the IAQA conference in Las Vegas in March along with other new research. Hope to see you in LV!Bob

Wane, others,

This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

It concerns expertise and ability.

I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of the "engineer". How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's reports or opinion?

I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and am intelligent.

As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do is simply prove them wrong.

The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who merely claim to know what they are talking about!

Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing the public.

How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by initials after a last name?

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sharon. My messages are to open the eyes and minds to the role of

Gram negative and positive bacteria in water damaged buildings. According to

various officials at EPA and also Dr. Johanning, it is recognized that

bacteria and their toxins have taken a back seat to mold and mycotoxins. The

latest paper Taubel et al clearly points this out. In addition, Dr. Fisk and

his group at Lawrence Livermore Lab have through meta-analysis and published

papers clearly point to upper and lower respiratory infections occur in

occupants of water-damaged buildings. All one has do is go to Pubmed and

begin a literature search for one subject, e.g. bacterial and fungal

secondary metabolites or water-damaged buildings and respiratory disease to

open ones eyes and minds to the interactions that are probably occurring in

these environments. We have much to learn.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20bacterial%20and%20mold%20second\

ary%20metabolites

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000394/pdf/1476-069X-9-72.pdf

To give an example, I have been contacted by a family living in HUD low

income housing. The entire family is ill with upper and lower respiratory

conditions. A two month old infant died of respiratory failure. All tests

for viruses were negative. The hospital demonstrated a systemic infection

from Streptococcus, Staphylococcus and Corneybacterium (sic) - lungs, nasal

cavity and blood. The attic of the home is loaded with fungi as determined

by a CIH individual. However, he did not look for the bacteria, which is now

being done. The other two children (ages 1 and 3 years) have serious lung

conditions with onset of pneumonia. The parents have chronic bronchitis and

SOB. We have not looked into other health problems as of yet.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

> Wane, others,

> This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere

> summary

> of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> It concerns expertise and ability.

> I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm

> of

> the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

> reports or opinion?

> I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics,

> and

> am intelligent.

> As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

> medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

> Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

> someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to

> do

> is simply prove them wrong.

> The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those

> who

> merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones

> confusing

> the public.

> How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by

> initials after a last name?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob and All,

He who gets to set policy controls the game and the lives of many. Like Bob says, Don't worry about looking smart....just be smart.

Its good to disagree. Its good to have some ideas shot down. That's how wrong, old ideas are challenged and new, more accurate, concepts and polices are established. If one person was right on everything, we wouldn't even need this chatboard.

When debating, attack statements made by a person who is also trying to move the science along. Don't attack the person. Like this,

"I think Sharon Kramer is a fine woman. However my understanding of how policies are set differ from hers in that I am certain....."

Not,

"Sharon Kramer has no clue of what she is talking about. She is just some ole woman who has no background in science and keeps voicing her wrong opinions because she is an arrogant witch. I know for a fact that the way it works is....."

There are a lot of very smart people on this board who make a difference -- and I don't just mean those holding an office somewhere or with a gazillion years of college. Don't let public health policy based on outdated (or always known incorrect) science continue to be set to cater to limiting insurer liability over IAQ matters.

We have accomplished a lot from ideas that were originally hashed over on this board. We can accomplish even more! YOU have the power to change policy with your carefully chosen words.

WR,

Sharon

while everyone is fighting one another (only to look smarter than everyone else) others are setting policy in place to displace truth and creditable science

[Guest guest]

Jack,I am excited that someone gets it.... Its more than MOLD!!!!  Water damage consist of other factors....  and bacteria seems to be overlooked more often than not...  Many years ago I was called out to take a look at a water loss in Vermont. The other consultant also felt there might be bacteria proliferation verses a simple mold issue - but where. Prior investigations revealed some mold damage.  When the daughter came to stay with the father (at his place) she would end up in the hospital - within a day or the same day.  After listening to the details of the building I explained what was more likely than not occurring within the building envelope. Guess what, there it was - a large reservoir of bacteria. Plastic encasing roof insulation that was collecting the water that was migrating through the roof damage.

Sharon, you are correct, the carriers know this and that is why they have added in the exclusion of mold, bacteria, fragments, parts, etc.....Think about it, while everyone is fighting one another (only to look smarter than everyone else) others are setting policy in place to displace truth and creditable science..... Don't believe me, revisit your insurance policy and than tell me why the carriers added in these exclusions? Is it because they may know something you don't....

E-Bob

 

Jack, I sincerely apologize to you that I suggested you join this board made up of professional IAQ " good guys " to help others become more aware and to be able to discuss that bacteria also appears to be playing a role in the synergistic causes of illness from WDB. I am sorry if this aided to cause gossip mongering. 

 

Some seem baffled as to what causes the ACOEM mold statement to still be able to be used by the defense in mold litigation -- when it has been scientifically discredited many times over, including by the Federal GAO and WHO. 

 

A large part of the answer is, " they " don't need to trash the " good guys "  to continue to sell doubt of causation when the " good guys " will do it for them.

 

C'mon guys!   Attack a thought.  Attack a concept. Prove your point. Unless you can PROVE motivation is dishonorable and words are known to be false; don't attack each others' character or assume and assign motivation for the other person's words.

 

You are killin' us by aiding doubt of causation of illness from WDB to be able to flourish by character assassinating each other -- who are on the same side of trying to advance the science.

 

Cut it out, guys.  No matter what kind of degree one may or may not have, gossip is hurtful and harms us all.

 

WR,

Sharon

 

 

: very appropriate. Apparently there are certain individuals who would rather bash than seek the truth.Below is an example of what I am referring toI have tried to communicate with Jack before in another forum. I am trying to get him to actually be scientific. I totally resent his academic bullying tactics and responses that amount to " look it up for yourself " .I am 'guessing' that he isn't getting paid to provide information or do research and therefore, figures listees are capable of doing their own research....as when you testify, as you know, you have to have the science behind your statements???He won't/can't answer a direct question. Even though he works for the " good guys " , I view him as a plaintiff expert blowhard. He is a big phony in my book.Trust me he is so far removed from being a phony you have no idea. HE is the real deal in every aspect.Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...

Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@...

- CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: CIH Bashing & EthicsWane, others,This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.It concerns expertise and ability.I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's reports or opinion?I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and am intelligent.As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do is simply prove them wrong.The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who merely claim to know what they are talking about!Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing the public.How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by initials after a last name?

-- Sincerely,Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Environmental AirTechsIAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept. Southwick Massachusetts 01077email: Bob@...

[Guest guest]

Jack,

I sort of keep my finger on the pulse of things. I think those at the EPA who want to say WDB's only cause allergy are a dying breed. No pun intended.

I still think mycotoxins are the primary culprit for the symptoms of toxicity in WDB and mold for allergic & colonization - just my personal, unprofessional opinion. (Who cares what I think about science? I will be the first to tell you I am not qualified to render a professional opinion about science - other than I know you can't take a rat study add some math and profess to prove everyone but you is a liar.)

I also think its time to start looking at fine and ultrafine biological contaminants in WDBs being a key factor of long term, low grade, infection (elevated white blood cell counts) and irritant reactions - and how all these antigens work synergistically on the immune system, when setting policy. I do understand about moving information and setting policy. I do feel I am qualified to render an opinion on that.

What do you all think about where the science needs to go from here and when setting policy?

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bob: Below are two papers on fungal and microbial particulates. The

less than one micron fraction is being overlooked. Interestingly, the spores

of some Actinomycetes are at or less than one micron. We have found

Streptomyces, Mycobacterium, Propionibacterium in these indoor environments.

The key is to culture for more than 4 days because they are slow growing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2153459/pdf/nihms35332.pdf

http://www.aaem.pl/pdf/11185.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21144265

http://www.aaem.pl/pdf/14313.htm

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

> Wane, others,

> This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere

> summary

> of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> It concerns expertise and ability.

> I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm

> of

> the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

> reports or opinion?

> I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics,

> and

>

> am intelligent.

> As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

> medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

> Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

> someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do

> is simply prove them wrong.

> The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those

> who

>

> merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones

> confusing

>

> the public.

> How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by

> initials after a last name?

>

>

>

--

Sincerely,

Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

---------------------

Environmental AirTechs

IAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept.

Southwick Massachusetts 01077

email: Bob@...

[Guest guest]

Sharon: thank you. I agree. We are entitle to a professional opinions. Mine

has come from years of work with chemically injured and microbial injured

individuals working with their treating physicians. One amusing anecdote

resulted form being invited to the EPA head quarters in 1988. 120 workers

had been furloughed to work at home because they could no longer work in the

building. In addition, several other workers had developed upper and lower

respiratory problems, but continued to work in the building. At this date

(1988) we were just beginning to realize that Sick Building Syndrome was

occurring, however, we had no knowledge on how to test for various

components. Unfortunate; the last I had heard is the majority of the

original 120 of passed onto higher grounds.

I distinctly remember the director of the EPA addressing the employees of

the building in a town hall meeting in the main auditorium. " Here at EPA we

recognized that Sick Building Syndrome exists, but we do not have the

problem at the EPA headquarters. He was booed and hissed by some 500

individuals in the audience.

I still hear the same information form EPA and other agencies today.

However, they say microbes are the problem do not cause adverse health

effects except for allergies.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

Wane, others,

This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere

summary

of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

It concerns expertise and ability.

I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm

of

the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

reports or opinion?

I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics,

and

am intelligent.

As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do

is simply prove them wrong.

The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those

who

merely claim to know what they are talking about!

Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones

confusing

the public.

How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by

initials after a last name?

[Guest guest]

Kudos Sharon!!Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerrySender: iequality Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:46:28 -0700To: <iequality >ReplyTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: CIH Bashing Ethics Thank you Sharon. My messages are to open the eyes and minds to the role of Gram negative and positive bacteria in water damaged buildings. According to various officials at EPA and also Dr. Johanning, it is recognized that bacteria and their toxins have taken a back seat to mold and mycotoxins. The latest paper Taubel et al clearly points this out. In addition, Dr. Fisk and his group at Lawrence Livermore Lab have through meta-analysis and published papers clearly point to upper and lower respiratory infections occur in occupants of water-damaged buildings. All one has do is go to Pubmed and begin a literature search for one subject, e.g. bacterial and fungal secondary metabolites or water-damaged buildings and respiratory disease to open ones eyes and minds to the interactions that are probably occurring in these environments. We have much to learn.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20bacterial%20and%20mold%20secondary%20metaboliteshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000394/pdf/1476-069X-9-72.pdfTo give an example, I have been contacted by a family living in HUD low income housing. The entire family is ill with upper and lower respiratory conditions. A two month old infant died of respiratory failure. All tests for viruses were negative. The hospital demonstrated a systemic infection from Streptococcus, Staphylococcus and Corneybacterium (sic) - lungs, nasal cavity and blood. The attic of the home is loaded with fungi as determined by a CIH individual. However, he did not look for the bacteria, which is now being done. The other two children (ages 1 and 3 years) have serious lung conditions with onset of pneumonia. The parents have chronic bronchitis and SOB. We have not looked into other health problems as of yet.Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics>> Wane, others,> This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere> summary> of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.> It concerns expertise and ability.> I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.> How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm> of> the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's> reports or opinion?> I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics,> and> am intelligent.> As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the> medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.> It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.> Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with> someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to > do> is simply prove them wrong.> The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those> who> merely claim to know what they are talking about!> Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones> confusing> the public.> How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by> initials after a last name?>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Pseudomonas

I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is, how prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not only have those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them. There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time day. Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to listen.

Sharon

Sharon Noonan Kramer

[Guest guest]

You are most likely correct. I have spoken with a some, particularly

Kolb, and changes have occurred.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> Jack,

>

> I sort of keep my finger on the pulse of things. I think those at the

> EPA

> who want to say WDB's only cause allergy are a dying breed. No pun

> intended.

>

> I still think mycotoxins are the primary culprit for the symptoms of

> toxicity in WDB and mold for allergic & colonization - just my personal,

> unprofessional opinion. (Who cares what I think about science? I will

> be the

> first to tell you I am not qualified to render a professional opinion

> about

> science - other than I know you can't take a rat study add some math and

> profess to prove everyone but you is a liar.)

>

> I also think its time to start looking at fine and ultrafine biological

> contaminants in WDBs being a key factor of long term, low grade,

> infection

> (elevated white blood cell counts) and irritant reactions - and how all

> these

> antigens work synergistically on the immune system, when setting policy.

> I do understand about moving information and setting policy. I do feel I

> am qualified to render an opinion on that.

>

> What do you all think about where the science needs to go from here and

> when setting policy?

>

> Sharon

>

>

[Guest guest]

Also the papers out of Europe regarding Valinomycin (Streptomyces spp) and

endotoxin synergism with macrocyclic trichothecenes. This is also earlier

work showing synergism between aflatoxin B1 and endotoxins.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

The importance of the Bacteria in damp indoor environments has not been

lost on all of us.

A wonderful paper was published nearly 10 years ago on the inflammatory

and cytotoxic potential of bacteria.

Huttunen, K., et al (2003) " Production of Proinflammatory Mediators by

Indoor Air Bacteria and Fungal Spores in Mouse and Human Cell Lines " ,

Environmental Health Perspectives, 111:85-92

In technical seminars presented to various groups beginning in 2005,

here's how I've summarized portions of their findings:

Excerpts:

(sorry, but these are copied and pasted directly from my powerpoint

slides; I hope the formatting doesn't get all dorked up.)

" Currently it is not known which components of the microbial flora are

most harmful to occupants of moldy buildings. "

" Our working hypothesis is that bacteria...are also important in causing

inflammatory and cytotoxic response. "

The inflammatory potency decreased in the order:

Pseudomonas fluorescens > Streptomyces californicus > Bacillus cereus >

Stachybotrys chartarum > Aspergillus versicolor > Penicillium spinulosum

The cytotoxic potency decreased in the order:

Pseudomonas fluorescens > Stachybotrys chartarum > Streptomyces

californicus > Aspergillus versicolor > Bacillus cereus > Penicillium

spinulosum

In summary: " ...bacterial species need to be considered as causative

agents for adverse inflammatory effects in water-damaged buildings. "

Fascinating and critically important stuff!

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH

Division Manager, Senior Consultant

MICHAELS ENGINEERING

St. , La Crosse, Madison

Phone

Cell

Fax

mailto:wab@...

On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

<http://www.michaelsengineering.com/>

" To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be

more fun? "

- Graham

Please see my LinkedIn Public Profile, here:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/wanebaker

Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iequality/message/22193;_ylc=X3oDMTJzYzdx

Y2Q1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRtc2dJ

ZAMyMjE5MwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMzEzMDIxODcx>

Posted by: " Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D. " toxicologist1@...

<mailto:toxicologist1@...?Subject=

Re%3A%20CIH%20Bashing%20%26%20Ethics>

Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:01 pm (PDT)

Thank you Sharon. My messages are to open the eyes and minds to the role

of

Gram negative and positive bacteria in water damaged buildings.

According to

various officials at EPA and also Dr. Johanning, it is recognized that

bacteria and their toxins have taken a back seat to mold and mycotoxins.

The

latest paper Taubel et al clearly points this out. In addition, Dr. Fisk

and

his group at Lawrence Livermore Lab have through meta-analysis and

published

papers clearly point to upper and lower respiratory infections occur in

occupants of water-damaged buildings. All one has do is go to Pubmed and

begin a literature search for one subject, e.g. bacterial and fungal

secondary metabolites or water-damaged buildings and respiratory disease

to

open ones eyes and minds to the interactions that are probably occurring

in

these environments. We have much to learn.

[Guest guest]

There are two genera of bacteria in the indoor environment that are water

loving: Pseudomonas and Proteus spp. We have found Pseudomonas in every

house and boiling we have done. Proteus is less common, but can be found

were water content is 0.9 to 1.0 (activity speaking)

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>

> Pseudomonas

>

>

> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

> how

> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>

> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

> only have

> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

> day.

> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

> listen.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

Don, As you know, AIHA sells a number of publications that are written by others - including the Green Book. In fact, anyone can submit their book to AIHA to publish. All books that are AIHA publications have to be "approved" by AIHA. However, AIHA will NOT publish a book that does not support their opinions and philosophies. What makes some AIHA publications different is that they were authored by committees: e.g. By the AIHA Control Banding Working GroupBy the AIHA Biosafety and Environmental Microbiology CommitteeBy the AIHA Biological Monitoring CommitteeBy the AIHA Protective Clothing and Equipment CommitteeBy the AIHA Construction CommitteeIt does not say this for the "green book." The green book is a book by others that AIHA publishes but it is NOT by an AIHA committee.AIHA certainly supports the content of the green book -written by others- but it was NOT an AIHA committee's work. Bob

Hi, all:

I want just to correct one erroneous statement made here, that the AIHA Green Book 'is not an AIHA document, but a book by others that AIHA sells.'

The Green Book is in fact an AIHA publication, solicited by the AIHA Board of Directors in 2003, and completed by the AIHA IEQ and Biosafety Committees in 2008 with assistance from over 50 world renowned experts in this field who spupplied chapters and reviewed the text. The book is published by AIHA, and the BOD approved it before it was published. There is no question that it is an AIHA publication, with full AIHA approval. This book was recognized by the AIHA Publications Committee in 2008 as a 'Best Seller', an annual AIHA Publications Award.

As one of the editors of the book along with Dr. and Brad Prezant, I fully am aware of the 'bashing' that this book has sometimes taken in the past and the present. I accept that others may have different opinions than the ones expressed in the book. However, this disagreement with the book is not the same as saying that this is not an AIHA document. This is not correct.

Don

>

> > Wane, others,

> > This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> > It concerns expertise and ability.

> > I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> > How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of the "engineer". How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's reports or opinion?

> > I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and am intelligent.

> > As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> > It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

> > Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do is simply prove them wrong.

> > The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> > Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing the public.

> > How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by initials after a last name?

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1746066/pdf/v056p00462.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17542835

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> >

> > Wane, others,

> > This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere

> > summary

> > of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> > It concerns expertise and ability.

> > I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> > How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the

> > realm

> > of

> > the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

> > reports or opinion?

> > I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics,

> > and

> >

> > am intelligent.

> > As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

> > medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> > It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

> > Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

> > someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to

> > do

> > is simply prove them wrong.

> > The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those

> > who

> >

> > merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> > Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones

> > confusing

> >

> > the public.

> > How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling?

> > by

> > initials after a last name?

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Sincerely,

> Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II

>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

---------------------

> Environmental AirTechs

> IAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept.

> Southwick Massachusetts 01077

> email: Bob@...

>

[Guest guest]

I understand your frustration. However, I do not know the toxicologist you

have spoken with. However, the literature is full of information regarding

upper and lower respiratory tract morbidity (not death and bodies), but

morbidity. There are also some individuals (not all) who have genetic

polymorphism that makes the more sensitive. For example, individuals with

GSTM1 null (no genes for this detox pathway) have a higher risk to the

cancer causing aflatoxin B1. There certain HLA phenotypes that lend to

greater risk for disease, not only by mold but also from bacteria.

In the years I have been in this business (since about 1984) I have see two

deaths of adults. However, a raised morbidity with respect to upper and

lower respiratory morbidity. Water-damage building and its toxins (VOCs,

MVOCS, fungi and their toxins, bacteria and their toxins, make for soup that

has a variety of different impacts.

Finally, I taught at one time at U. of Colorado and at UCLA school of

medicines. I can personally attest to the fact that environmental medicine

has always had a back seat to the standard medical curriculum. It is better

today, but still lacks. I have also spoken with many of the ill (morbidity

not bodies) in water damage homes, buildings, schools and hospitals. Not all

are ill, but a number do developed chronic morbidity with multiple symptoms.

A good example as I put on this forum was my experience with the EPA

building in D.C. 120 individuals were allowed to work at home because they

could not tolerate the building. Many of the others had upper and lower

respiratory symptoms that were not serious enough to keep them at home.

The other problem is public cost. Below are some papers on these subjects,

particularly morbidity. A sick worker is not as efficient as a healthy one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19076249

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17542835

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18177298

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21196349

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> >

> > Wane, others,

> > This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere

> > summary

> > of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> > It concerns expertise and ability.

> > I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> > How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the

> > realm

> > of

> > the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's

> > reports or opinion?

> > I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics,

> > and

> >

> > am intelligent.

> > As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

> > medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> > It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

> > Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with

> > someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to

> > do

> > is simply prove them wrong.

> > The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those

> > who

> >

> > merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> > Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones

> > confusing

> >

> > the public.

> > How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling?

> > by

> > initials after a last name?

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Sincerely,

> Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II

>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

---------------------

> Environmental AirTechs

> IAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept.

> Southwick Massachusetts 01077

> email: Bob@...

>

[Guest guest]

Jack,

Responding to:

"There certain HLA phenotypes that lend to greater risk for disease, not only by mold but also from bacteria."

Response:

Are you aware of any good papers that discuss what immune function the HLA-DR haplotypes encode for? I think understanding this is key to understanding how the adaptive immune system creates various kinds of polypeptide "receptors" for future recognition (i.e., creates immune memory).

Responding to:

"the EPA building in D.C. 120 individuals were allowed to work at home because they could not tolerate the building. Many of the others had upper and lower respiratory symptoms that were not serious enough to keep them at home."

Response:

I heard one of these EPA workers (a female attorney) speak at a conference about what happened to her. She became chemically sensitive, especially experiencing neuro-cognitive symptoms like debilitating brain fog, etc. I recall that she said she drove past her own house coming home one day. Isn't that what happened to those who "could not tolerate the building"? Didn't they become sensitized to the VOCs after a renovation? Aren't they still hypersensitive to environmental chemicals?

Steve Temes

I understand your frustration. However, I do not know the toxicologist you

have spoken with. However, the literature is full of information regarding

upper and lower respiratory tract morbidity (not death and bodies), but

morbidity. There are also some individuals (not all) who have genetic

polymorphism that makes the more sensitive. For example, individuals with

GSTM1 null (no genes for this detox pathway) have a higher risk to the

cancer causing aflatoxin B1. There certain HLA phenotypes that lend to

greater risk for disease, not only by mold but also from bacteria.

In the years I have been in this business (since about 1984) I have see two

deaths of adults. However, a raised morbidity with respect to upper and

lower respiratory morbidity. Water-damage building and its toxins (VOCs,

MVOCS, fungi and their toxins, bacteria and their toxins, make for soup that

has a variety of different impacts.

Finally, I taught at one time at U. of Colorado and at UCLA school of

medicines. I can personally attest to the fact that environmental medicine

has always had a back seat to the standard medical curriculum. It is better

today, but still lacks. I have also spoken with many of the ill (morbidity

not bodies) in water damage homes, buildings, schools and hospitals. Not all

are ill, but a number do developed chronic morbidity with multiple symptoms.

A good example as I put on this forum was my experience with the EPA

building in D.C. 120 individuals were allowed to work at home because they

could not tolerate the building. Many of the others had upper and lower

respiratory symptoms that were not serious enough to keep them at home.

The other problem is public cost. Below are some papers on these subjects,

particularly morbidity. A sick worker is not as efficient as a healthy one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19076249

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17542835

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18177298

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21196349

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

[Guest guest]

Jack,Clothing left in a washing machine overnight can produce a musty odor. I don't believe the odor is a result of mold growth but bacteria. Has anybody spent the time to identify the organism(s) producing the musty odor? Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:31 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics There are two genera of bacteria in the indoor environment that are water loving: Pseudomonas and Proteus spp. We have found Pseudomonas in every house and boiling we have done. Proteus is less common, but can be found were water content is 0.9 to 1.0 (activity speaking)Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics>>> Pseudomonas>>> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is, > how> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?>> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not > only have> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time > day.> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to> listen.>> Sharon>> Sharon Noonan Kramer>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you on the bacteria. Molds do not grow that quickly, at least

not over night. The other problem that might result from the washing

machine as well as dishwashers, is water left in the system. Pseudomonas and

Proteus just love standing water and the give off MVOCs.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

>

>>

>>

>> Pseudomonas

>>

>>

>> I know there is not a lot of data on this, but based on what there is,

>> how

>> prevalent is pseudomonas in WDB?

>>

>> And Wane, its not that your degrees count for nothing. They most

>> certainly count...for YOU. The reason they count for YOU is that you not

>> only have

>> those degrees, you have a track record of appropriately applying them.

>> There are some with the same credentials that I wouldn't give the time

>> day.

>> Credentials open doors and make people more inclined to hear words. What

>> one does once that door is open, determines if people will continue to

>> listen.

>>

>> Sharon

>>

>> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I may agree with you, however I have not seen or the data you mention. We

actually do not know the numbers as you suggested because of the manner in

which death statistics are kept. Finally, we must keep in mind those who are

genetically susceptible. They are the minority. For example I used GSTM1

detox pathway. The null condition is found in 30 % of the population and

they are susceptible to the adverse health effects of a variety of toxins.

Another example is in my own household. I do not have respiratory disease

and I have very good health for someone born in 1936. However, , my

lovely lady, has asthma. We have to watch where we go and make sure we have

her bronchodilator with us. There are buildings that she cannot enter. On

the other had there are buildings that do not cause her problems. It has

been difficult to determine what her triggers are.

I know that the links are questioned by some and not by others. However,

were are all entitled to our opinions based up our professional experiences.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

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Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> > >

> > > Wane, others,

> > > This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere

> > > summary

> > > of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> > > It concerns expertise and ability.

> > > I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> > > How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the

> > > realm

> > > of

> > > the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in

> > > engineer's

> > > reports or opinion?

> > > I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the

> > > specifics,

> > > and

> > >

> > > am intelligent.

> > > As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the

> > > medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> > > It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a

> > > problem.

> > > Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted

> > > with

> > > someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing

> > > to

> > > do

> > > is simply prove them wrong.

> > > The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of

> > > those

> > > who

> > >

> > > merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> > > Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones

> > > confusing

> > >

> > > the public.

> > > How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling?

> > > by

> > > initials after a last name?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Sincerely,

> > Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II

> >

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

---------------------

> > Environmental AirTechs

> > IAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept.

> > Southwick Massachusetts 01077

> > email: Bob@

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Steve: The building that I saw was not renovated as I recall. My walk

through the building did not reveal renovation.

I will look for some papers on the HLA phenotypes. There are several

diseases associated with it. Currently, I am searching the literature of HLA

and psoriasis. During the search I will look for some solid reviews and

hopefully post them.

I do have Shoemaker's papers if you do not have them. I will send them to

you personally if you wish. They make an interesting story.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

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you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

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Re: Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics

> Jack,

>

> Responding to:

> " There certain HLA phenotypes that lend to greater risk for disease, not

> only by mold but also from bacteria. "

>

> Response:

> Are you aware of any good papers that discuss what immune function the

> HLA-DR haplotypes encode for? I think understanding this is key to

> understanding how the adaptive immune system creates various kinds of

> polypeptide

> " receptors " for future recognition (i.e., creates immune memory).

>

> Responding to:

> " the EPA building in D.C. 120 individuals were allowed to work at home

> because they could not tolerate the building. Many of the others had upper

> and

> lower respiratory symptoms that were not serious enough to keep them at

> home. "

>

> Response:

> I heard one of these EPA workers (a female attorney) speak at a conference

> about what happened to her. She became chemically sensitive, especially

> experiencing neuro-cognitive symptoms like debilitating brain fog, etc. I

> recall that she said she drove past her own house coming home one day.

> Isn't

> that what happened to those who " could not tolerate the building " ? Didn't

> they become sensitized to the VOCs after a renovation? Aren't they still

> hypersensitive to environmental chemicals?

>

> Steve Temes

>

> In a message dated 8/11/2011 8:35:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> toxicologist1@... writes:

>> I understand your frustration. However, I do not know the toxicologist

>> you

>> have spoken with. However, the literature is full of information

>> regarding

>>

>> upper and lower respiratory tract morbidity (not death and bodies), but

>> morbidity. There are also some individuals (not all) who have genetic

>> polymorphism that makes the more sensitive. For example, individuals with

>> GSTM1 null (no genes for this detox pathway) have a higher risk to the

>> cancer causing aflatoxin B1. There certain HLA phenotypes that lend to

>> greater risk for disease, not only by mold but also from bacteria.

>>

>> In the years I have been in this business (since about 1984) I have see

>> two

>> deaths of adults. However, a raised morbidity with respect to upper and

>> lower respiratory morbidity. Water-damage building and its toxins (VOCs,

>> MVOCS, fungi and their toxins, bacteria and their toxins, make for soup

>> that

>> has a variety of different impacts.

>>

>> Finally, I taught at one time at U. of Colorado and at UCLA school of

>> medicines. I can personally attest to the fact that environmental

>> medicine

>>

>> has always had a back seat to the standard medical curriculum. It is

>> better

>> today, but still lacks. I have also spoken with many of the ill

>> (morbidity

>>

>> not bodies) in water damage homes, buildings, schools and hospitals. Not

>> all

>> are ill, but a number do developed chronic morbidity with multiple

>> symptoms.

>> A good example as I put on this forum was my experience with the EPA

>> building in D.C. 120 individuals were allowed to work at home because

>> they

>>

>> could not tolerate the building. Many of the others had upper and lower

>> respiratory symptoms that were not serious enough to keep them at home.

>>

>> The other problem is public cost. Below are some papers on these

>> subjects,

>>

>> particularly morbidity. A sick worker is not as efficient as a healthy

>> one.

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19076249

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17542835

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18177298

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21196349

>>

>> Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

>> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

>> www.drthrasher.org

>> toxicologist1@...

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Don, I have run into a legal problem of being able to reference the green book as a standard of practice by AIHA. Saying it is an AHIA publication did not buy be anything. There was no specific AIHA committee listed as its source. It only has authors and editors - just like numerous other books that AIHA publishes. The question was also asked how much AIHA paid to have this book written? I could not deny that AIHA does not pay its authors.If AIHA requested that committees to author the book, why doesn't it say this?Bob

Hi, Bob: Sorry to have to correct you again, but the Green Book was a book solicited by the AIHA Board of Directors to the IEQ and Biosafety Committees, requesting that these AIHA Committees direct their resources and personnel to writing and editting this book. Therefore, it is indeed the work of the members of these two Committees with the support and contributions of other well known scientists and practitioners in the fields of microbiology, mycology, industrial hygiene, and aerobiology.

Sure, 'anyone can submit their book to AIHA to publish.' But most of these books are not published by AIHA. Most are rejected by the Publications Committee with the technical review assistance of the Technical Committees of AIHA. In general, these books are not considered to be up to the high standards set by AIHA for its publications. When AIHA published a book, it is considered to be an AIHA publication, through and through.

The Green Book was indeed 'different' in that the Board of Directors directly solicited this publication from two of AIHA's Technical Committees. The usual practice is that a Committee will submit a publication for consideration of the Board of Directors and the Publications Committee. That is why you see the headings you listed below on other publications. In this case, the book was edited by three individuals (, Weekes, and Prezant), but the authorship was split by Section and Chapter, as listed at the beginning of each of the eighteen Sections. Many of these authors are members of the two AIHA Technical Committees.

The Green Book's content was first reviewed by an outside group of experts, then reviewed internally by the members of the two Committees, reviewed by a Technical Editor, reviewed by the members of the Publications Committee, and then reviewed and approved by the AIHA Board of Directors.

This was indeed a long and arduous process that took over five years to complete. It resulted in an AIHA publication that has been in the Top Ten AIHA publications for the past three years.

Bob: I am not sure what is your point in this matter. This book is an AIHA publication as written and editted by members of the two AIHA Technical Committees with other experts in the field, as solicited by the AIHA BOD. That really should put to rest whether or not the Green Book is an AIHA publication, as stated on its cover.

Don

> > >

> > > > Wane, others,

> > > > This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere summary of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society.

> > > > It concerns expertise and ability.

> > > > I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited.

> > > > How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the realm of the "engineer". How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's reports or opinion?

> > > > I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, and am intelligent.

> > > > As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the medical doctor who solves an engineering problem.

> > > > It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem.

> > > > Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to do is simply prove them wrong.

> > > > The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those who merely claim to know what they are talking about!

> > > > Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones confusing the public.

> > > > How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? by initials after a last name?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Another example is in my own household. I do not have respiratory disease

and I have very good health for someone born in 1936. However, , my

lovely lady, has asthma. We have to watch where we go and make sure we have

her bronchodilator with us. There are buildings that she cannot enter. On

the other had there are buildings that do not cause her problems. It has

been difficult to determine what her triggers are.

Sounds like hundreds of new business calls I have taken as an environmental health consultant.

Maybe you need to hire Steve Temes, Jack. :-)

Steve Temes