Liver Enzymes

[Guest guest]

I would suggest to my rhuemy just what is causing the enzymes to go up and going off of mtx( I have heard mtx can do this). I have bloodwork done every 6wks just to check my enzymes of the liver. I take mtx orally. Good luck to you and keep us posted. a

[ ] Liver Enzymes

The ongoing good news in my life - My rheumy called me AT HOME this Sunday morning (I have trouble getting an appointment with him, much lessa phone consult, so I knew it must be serious) to tell me that based upon my last three blood tests that my liver enzymes were significantly heightened and he wants me in for another immediate liver biopsy. My first biopsy was when I started MTX (to get a baseline), had another about a year later and now this one. I HATE the biopsy - rather have a root canal or IRS audit, possibly even child birth. Has anyone else gone down this path? What does this mean? I was planning on talking to rheumy about switching from MTX to Enbrel since the MTX I inject does not seem to be wildly effective. Advice?

[Guest guest]

No, never have taken sulfasalzine - am deathly allergic to anything remotely connected to sulpha. My rheumy did warn me that MTX might do it - I do blood tests every 4 weeks. So - I may have to go off the only medication that has helped. GRRRRRR.

[Guest guest]

Have you looked into whether you might have hemochromatosis?

Nelly

[ ] Liver Enzymes

> Thanks to everyone who offered advice regarding the liver enzymes. I'll

check into the

> milk thistle. Pharmanex's Cholestin really helped lower my cholesterol

(that always used

> to be low) so I'm turning into a believer of some supplements. Now if I

could find

> something to lower my very high iron level I'd be even happier.

> Eileen

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

That's a good point Nelly- I would look into chelation therapy for lowering the iron.

Edina

[ ] Liver Enzymes> Thanks to everyone who offered advice regarding the liver enzymes. I'llcheck into the> milk thistle. Pharmanex's Cholestin really helped lower my cholesterol(that always used> to be low) so I'm turning into a believer of some supplements. Now if Icould find> something to lower my very high iron level I'd be even happier.> Eileen>>>> Welcome to >> Easy Reference:> Send a blank email message to:>> -Unsubscribe - Unsubscribe from the list> -Digest - Switch your subscription to a digestformat> -Normal - Switch your subscription to normal>> Please send messages not related to Lyme disease (this includes humor andinformation about other diseases) to -Offtopic >> The archives can be accessed at >> The chat room is always open!> /chat>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Nelly,

I was told that I didn't have Hemochromatosis by a hematologist. Thanks for

the

suggestion. Maybe we're waiting for real signs of organ damage before I get that

diagnosis.

Eileen

[Guest guest]

Eileen,

>I was told that I didn't have Hemochromatosis by a hematologist.

What tests did s/he do?

You can find out immediately without waiting for organ damage from the

genetic test. If you have high ferritin and/or high iron saturation (%)

don't hesitate to demand the genetic test. Women often don't show sx of

hemochromatosis as early as men.

Nelly

Re: [ ] Liver Enzymes

> Hi Nelly,

> I was told that I didn't have Hemochromatosis by a hematologist.

Thanks for the

> suggestion. Maybe we're waiting for real signs of organ damage before I

get that

> diagnosis.

> Eileen

>

>

>

>

>

> Welcome to

>

> Easy Reference:

> Send a blank email message to:

>

> -Unsubscribe - Unsubscribe from the list

> -Digest - Switch your subscription to a digest

format

> -Normal - Switch your subscription to normal

>

> Please send messages not related to Lyme disease (this includes humor and

information about other diseases) to -Offtopic

>

> The archives can be accessed at

>

> The chat room is always open!

> /chat

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/21/02 7:53:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFRITCH@...

writes:

> started milk thistle extract (known to protect and

> normalize liver) and within 3 weeks on it we did another liver profile

> and his liver enzymes were normal for the first time.

Patti --

Do you know your son's liver profile? I mean, do you know how his phase I

and phase II systems compare? My son has a fast phase l and a slower phase

II. I know in that case you have to be careful what supplements you use

because if

the liver is detoxing too fast and the body can't metabolize and get rid of

the detox, then you can have problems.

Celia

[Guest guest]

I just cought the tail end of this post but wanted to mention that my

sons liver enzymes were ALWAYS 10 points above the highest " Normal "

for his range. I started milk thistle extract (known to protect and

normalize liver) and within 3 weeks on it we did another liver profile

and his liver enzymes were normal for the first time. I also notice

that he is much less hyper since starting milk thistle. If anyone has

a child who displays high liver enzymes you may want to consider milk

thistle. I give it to my son 3 times a day. I purchased the extract in

glycerine NOT alcahol at my local health food store.

Patti

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/21/02 10:16:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFRITCH@...

writes:

> I think if he had a problem with it

> we wouldnt see positive things we would be seeing negative. What do

> you think?

>

Patti -- yes, I'm sure you're right. I was just wondering if you had had a

liver profile

done beforehand. I wanted to see how our kids compared and if milk thistle

might

be okay for us to try. We found out about Josh's elevated SGOT when we had

a Great Smokies Liver Profile done a few years back.

Celia

[Guest guest]

Patti,

This is great news!! You have worked so hard to help your little

guy. What do you know about long-term effects of the milk thistle?

A friend at my area parent support group last night said she heard

you have to go off of it periodically so as not to damage the liver,

so you end up having to go back and forth on it. Sorry, I don't know

where she heard this. It sounds like it's working great for you.

> I just cought the tail end of this post but wanted to mention that

my

> sons liver enzymes were ALWAYS 10 points above the highest " Normal "

> for his range. I started milk thistle extract (known to protect and

> normalize liver) and within 3 weeks on it we did another liver

profile

> and his liver enzymes were normal for the first time. I also notice

> that he is much less hyper since starting milk thistle. If anyone

has

> a child who displays high liver enzymes you may want to consider

milk

> thistle. I give it to my son 3 times a day. I purchased the extract

in

> glycerine NOT alcahol at my local health food store.

> Patti

[Guest guest]

--Celia,

no I was talking about AST and ALT. He improved and his enzymes

dropped so our doctor wants us to keep using it. We are chelating once

a month so it is also for support. I think if he had a problem with it

we wouldnt see positive things we would be seeing negative. What do

you think?

Patti

- In @y..., AICFan@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/21/02 7:53:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CFRITCH@R...

> writes:

>

>

> > started milk thistle extract (known to protect and

> > normalize liver) and within 3 weeks on it we did another liver profile

> > and his liver enzymes were normal for the first time.

>

> Patti --

>

> Do you know your son's liver profile? I mean, do you know how his

phase I

> and phase II systems compare? My son has a fast phase l and a

slower phase

> II. I know in that case you have to be careful what supplements you

use

> because if

> the liver is detoxing too fast and the body can't metabolize and get

rid of

> the detox, then you can have problems.

>

> Celia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, I was told by the company to take one day off a week. However

Andy Cutler from the Autism and mercury board suggests giving it

continuously for the metals toxic child. I also read that it is in

extremely high doses that you should take a break and I am only giving

the amount Kirkmans recommends broken down into 3 doses. (100 Divided

up) Milk thistle helps to regulate and produce the right amount of

bile and helps produce glutathion and it actually can help keep a

protective barrier around the liver. from what I read it also mops up

lots of toxins and free radicals helping the body to detox itself

better. I haave been reading many reports on line about milk thistle

and it seems to have no contraindications and has helped many people

with hepatitus C and cirrosis of the liver. It is really fascinating

stuff.

Patti -

-- In @y..., " Kelley " <ckelley100@c...> wrote:

> Patti,

>

> This is great news!! You have worked so hard to help your little

> guy. What do you know about long-term effects of the milk thistle?

> A friend at my area parent support group last night said she heard

> you have to go off of it periodically so as not to damage the liver,

> so you end up having to go back and forth on it. Sorry, I don't know

> where she heard this. It sounds like it's working great for you.

>

>

>

>

>

> > I just cought the tail end of this post but wanted to mention that

> my

> > sons liver enzymes were ALWAYS 10 points above the highest " Normal "

> > for his range. I started milk thistle extract (known to protect and

> > normalize liver) and within 3 weeks on it we did another liver

> profile

> > and his liver enzymes were normal for the first time. I also notice

> > that he is much less hyper since starting milk thistle. If anyone

> has

> > a child who displays high liver enzymes you may want to consider

> milk

> > thistle. I give it to my son 3 times a day. I purchased the extract

> in

> > glycerine NOT alcahol at my local health food store.

> > Patti

[Guest guest]

Hi Patti

Your little man has done so well on this. The only negative thing I have

heard about Milk Thistle and this is only observation of a lay person but

they saw a few, is that by speeding up the Phase 1 liver - which he must have

needed - can maybe deplete fatty acids ie they get used up faster than before

so make sure you continue with some fatty acid supps if you think this maybe

a problem. I ran the source and details past Andy Cutler and he told me not

to wrorry about it. I don't and I'm giving more these days - along with

plenty high quality balanced fatty acids.

HTH

Mandi in UK

> --Celia,

> no I was talking about AST and ALT. He improved and his enzymes

> dropped so our doctor wants us to keep using it. We are chelating once

> a month so it is also for support. I think if he had a problem with it

> we wouldnt see positive things we would be seeing negative. What do

> you think?

> Patti

>

[Guest guest]

I think there is some sort of test - ? detox profile, have a look at

www.gsdl.com it probably explains there. A-M list would know for sure. My

uneducated mummy guess is that he was slow and the milk thistle is speeding

him up hence he is better on it. I think the depleteing fatty acids thing was

looking at long term use. If had the results you have I wouldn't be in a

hurry to stop LOL

Mandi in UK

> --Thanks Mandi, How if any can I tell if my son has slow or fast phase

> I? I just purchased omega eggs and was going to try them on my son

> because he eats a scrambled egg every day.

> Patti

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/21/2002 3:19:01 PM Central Daylight Time,

CFRITCH@... writes:

> How if any can I tell if my son has slow or fast phase

> I?

My son took the Great Smokies Comprehensive Detox Panel, which tells how

phase I and II are doing.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

--Thanks Mandi, How if any can I tell if my son has slow or fast phase

I? I just purchased omega eggs and was going to try them on my son

because he eats a scrambled egg every day.

Patti

- In @y..., Mum231ASD@a... wrote:

> Hi Patti

> Your little man has done so well on this. The only negative thing I

have

> heard about Milk Thistle and this is only observation of a lay

person but

> they saw a few, is that by speeding up the Phase 1 liver - which he

must have

> needed - can maybe deplete fatty acids ie they get used up faster

than before

> so make sure you continue with some fatty acid supps if you think

this maybe

> a problem. I ran the source and details past Andy Cutler and he told

me not

> to wrorry about it. I don't and I'm giving more these days - along with

> plenty high quality balanced fatty acids.

> HTH

> Mandi in UK

>

>

> > --Celia,

> > no I was talking about AST and ALT. He improved and his enzymes

> > dropped so our doctor wants us to keep using it. We are chelating once

> > a month so it is also for support. I think if he had a problem with it

> > we wouldnt see positive things we would be seeing negative. What do

> > you think?

> > Patti

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

---Celia, yes we had ALT drop from 31 down to 26 and AST drop from 42

down to 32 within 2 weeks of starting milk thistle. His SGOT was 37

(within normal ranges but at the very high end) and we have not gotten

a reading for SGOT since starting milk thistle. The Dr. was pleased

that his AST and ALT decreased.

Patti

In @y..., AICFan@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/21/02 10:16:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CFRITCH@R...

> writes:

>

>

> > I think if he had a problem with it

> > we wouldnt see positive things we would be seeing negative. What do

> > you think?

> >

>

> Patti -- yes, I'm sure you're right. I was just wondering if you

had had a

> liver profile

> done beforehand. I wanted to see how our kids compared and if milk

thistle

> might

> be okay for us to try. We found out about Josh's elevated SGOT when

we had

> a Great Smokies Liver Profile done a few years back.

>

> Celia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, I have DM and my liver enzymes were elevated at the time of my

diagnosis. I take milk thistle and alpha lipoic to help the liver. It seems

to be working as my enzymes have been normal or next to normal for the past

6 months or so.

HTH

Carol/Piney

rheumatic liver enzymes

> hi everyone...was wondering if anyone had increased liver enzymes

> when they started the AP. i started about 2 weeks ago. my GP just

> noticed they had increased. which can be normal for DM. he said it

> may mean i have something viral going on. i have my own theory.

> the AP is killing off stuff and it puts a load on the liver (major

> detox organ) hence the increased enzymes. so hopefully it is a good

> sign. anyone know anything of this? thank you.

>

> rachael

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I second Carol's comment regarding Milk Thistle. I had elevated liver and

gall bladder levels from the start. Taking milk thistle, olive leaf extract

and most recently oil of oregano (and of course probiotics) has really

helped me. My enzyme levels were back to normal within a 6 month period. As

you've probably learned from reading the postings here, you need to time

your supplements and antibiotics away from each other so they aren't

canceling each other out. Supposedly, with doxycycline, this is not an

issue. But I like to play safe rather than sorry and keep all my different

medications at least 2 hours apart.

Speaking of probiotics, I've heard people say differing things about when

they take them. I've heard evening before bed and I read on my label today

that morning before a meal is best. What kinds of experiences have others

found with their probiotics that maximizes their benefits?

deano

> From: " Bob and Carol Zarn " <bczarn@...>

> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:35:32 -0600

> <rheumatic >, <dellatigre2@...>

> Subject: Re: rheumatic liver enzymes

>

I take milk thistle and alpha lipoic to help the liver. It seems

> to be working as my enzymes have been normal or next to normal for the past

> 6 months or so.

[Guest guest]

HI, I have two different kinds of probiotics. One is acidophilus and

bifidus and it says to take 30 minutes after meals. the other one is Protec

Acidophilus, enteric coated and says to take on an empty stomach or before

bedtime. Both seem to be beneficial to me.

Carol/Piney

Re: rheumatic liver enzymes

> >

> I take milk thistle and alpha lipoic to help the liver. It seems

> > to be working as my enzymes have been normal or next to normal for the

past

> > 6 months or so.

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Wow, I sure am sorry to hear that you are doing so poorly. I used to take MTX,

and then after weight loss surgery the MTX started effecting my liver enzymes so

I had to stop taking it. Once I stopped, my enzymes went down immediately. I

am surprised that even after skipping your dose, your enzyme levels were still

showing so high that they were off the chart. I'm sure that when you go see

your regular doc that they will refer you to some specialist. Maybe you should

call your regular doc, have them look at the blood work report and they see what

specialist they are going to refer you too, this way you can save yourself a

trip to the regular doc just to be refered to a specialist, especially since you

aren't feel well, plus save you the money of going to the regular doc just to be

refered to a specialist.

When my enzymes were elevated, I ultimately found out that the reason was

because my gall bladder went kaput because of my weight loss surgery, therefore

everything was backing up into my liver. Though I haven't taken MTX since

having my gall bladder taken out because my husband and I are trying to get

pregnant, but I'm willing to bet that I wouldn't have a problem with my liver

enzymes anymore.

I hope that you are feeling better soon! I am not having the greatest day in

regards to pain either so I can so appreciate what you are going through. Hang

in there friend and I pray things will get better soon for you.

[Guest guest]

Are you on injections or pills for MTX?

My Rheumy says not to take the FOlic Acid the day of

the shot, and 12 hours after the shot take a

Leukivorin<--ms and not the FOlic Acid.

I have been on 7.5 of MTX for over a year, and since

January 2003 I have been on Enbrel with the MTX.

[Guest guest]

HI robin,

I hope that your rheumy will consider Enbrel, 25 mg. injections twice

weekly (that's my dosage, and I assume the recommended one). I

couldn't tolerate MTX, and it wasn't doing anything for me, so I went

on the Enbrel and have had fairly good results-- meaning that there

are times when I am relatively pain free.

I " fired " a rheumy who not only would not let me try Enbrel, but

insisted on increasing my MTX dosage and switching me to injectables

even though I was not doing well with it. He maintained that MTX

taken orally doesn't work.

I hope you get relief. My enzymes have been fine with it, too.

Gentle hugs,

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/21/2003 web63@... writes:

> Are you on injections or pills for MTX?

I never took MTX. I started Enbrel in March and is is minimally working. It

is taking the edge off the pain but not enough. Perhaps when I go back to

the rheumy soon, he will start me on something else with it. I think if he

prescribes mtx that I would ask for the injection because I heard there are

less side effects.

Janet

[Guest guest]

I take 7.5 of mtx pills. I see most everyone supplements their mtx with

something else. I'm afraid this isn't going to be enough on its own. This is

scaring me!! I don't want to go back to the way I was!!

Robin