Re: Satanism

[Guest guest]

Tom, please...

Can't you save this for your Christian forum so that those who wish to

discuss it can join you there?

Inger

Re: Satanism

Remember that in the OT God has clearly stated that Israelis are His

chosen people and they will remain such for all time as long as the

israelis are faithful to Him.

God makes no such promises to any other nation or group of people

except Christians in the New Testament where he promises rewards in

Heaven for those who suffer on God's behalf.

I believe that God's promise to the Israeli people has never

waivered. In the last century, you had a nation of devoted followers

for Israel and you had the entire Arab world conspiring to destroy

them. Though Arabs had the advantage logistically, in terms of

ground forces, and in terms of number of troops, not only did Israel

defeat the Arabs, but they conquered additional territory as well.

By contrast, Hussein claimed Allah would cause the US to be defeated

in the " Mother of all Battles. " The Mother of all Battles occured

(twice), but it was Hussein who was defeated and eventually deposed.

Could it be that the resason for this was that thge US defended

Israeli in Gulf War I and God promised to stand by any nation that

support Israel? If the Israelis were able to defeat the Arabs with

fewer men and a lesser amount of military hardware in the Six Day

War, it stands to reason that Hussein, if backed by God, could have

defeated the US.

But in Vietnam, the US was acting in its own interest. Not Israel's.

So it's possible that God remained impartial in the conflict, or

handed victory over to those He felt desaerved it.

Tom

Administrator

" The Bible states that God had the Israelis inflict horrible

casualties on their enemies to show these nations they conquered

which nation(Israel) was supported by God, and what God could do for

a people that believed in Him. "

Kate replied:

That has always scared me - probably because I first learned some of

these Bible stories during the worst part of the Vietnam war. When

the

USA army suffered horrible casualties at the hands of a much smaller

nation (Vietnam), someone could presumably have used the same logic

to

claim that God supported Vietnam against the USA.

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Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 9:47:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

Many times, over and over again, God would tell the Israelis that their army was too big and to halve or even reduce in greater numbers their armies so that their might, as granted by God, could be witnessed by the opposition. There are stories of hundreds of Israelis killing thousands of the oponent, and this was due to the oponent continually defying the Israelis, and therefore God, since the Israelis were God's chosen people.TomAdministrator

Offense is also easier than defense, to an extent. Taking the enemy by surprise or luring them onto a field favorable to your forces can go a long way toward evening the odds. Morale also has a lot to do with.

There have been examples of this from more modern times. During some of the wars in ia (now Zimabew) incidents like this happened. Soldier would be landed by helicopter in front of an enemy position at night. They would advance the enemy and open fire with magazines full of tracers rounds. This would panic the defenders into fleeing, straight into the stealthily positioned troops in the forest on the other side of the camp.

I'm not at saying God didn't have a hand in the Old Testament battles. Some of the military leaders actually had very little or no military experience, yet they came up with brilliant tactics. That inspiration could well have come from God.

[Guest guest]

Kate is not Christian yet has expressed an interest in these matters.

Additionally, she has asked questions from Strict about the Mormon

faith.

It would be unfair to have either Kate or Strict restrict their

discussions to a forum that may not be in keeping with their religious

values. Perhaps they can join the Spiritual Aspie forum where all

religious topics may be discussed freely without any fear of people

getting banned for reasons personal or otherwise?

Even better, let them talk here where they may talk in REAL freedom

amomg those of all religions.

Secret Society's subject matter tends to wander, and I am sure that it

will wander away from religious topics after awhile.

Tom

Administrator

Tom, please...

Can't you save this for your Christian forum so that those who wish to

discuss it can join you there?

Inger

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes:

This scares me, Lwaxy, because my stepmother uses magic to fight her enemies, including my father's children (me included), and has a spell cast over him to keep him under her control. How does one, anyone, define an 'enemy'? I tried to get along with her and he is my father so I have some right to him (as little as he himself concedes.)My stepmother is evil, so she may be an exception in your definition, but still--we are her enemies because we come between her and her having my father all to herself. If a human is allowed magic, couldn't it easily be misused? Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you.

Very good points.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 4:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

It depends how much faith and trust you put in the Bible. I trust it implicity, but even if I didn't, there is corroborrating historical documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of Biblical characters and events, and archeological evidence also provides evidence for the existence of Biblical locations and objects mentioned in the Bible.This, and some of my own experiences that could be described as supernatural have caused me to firmly believe that what is stated in the Bible is true (for me). TomAdministrator

There are some things I have questions about in the Bible. Most of those though are in Genesis and seem rather hard to fathom based on scientific evidence. However, I simply view these as mysteries and will be fully explained one day, probably after I die. Some of the stories, especially in the creation cycle could be a kind of "Cliff's Notes" version of creation. After all, would a barely bronze age people understand concepts of quantum physics, nuclear physics, gravity and particlularly the great distances and time involved in it all? Since most modern humans can't, I don't think they could.

[Guest guest]

Well, that's a clever little flip-flop. I see the bigger problem here

of how this belief brings reproach on God and the bible and causes

confusion but in the case of the individual persons who can say?

People can pretend to be good and do good deeds but are not good.

People can be doing bad things but have good hearts and need

help. 'Satan' is just a name to this person you knew, so while I

believe the real Satan is laughing his head off, she appears good and

innocent.

>

> (I actually knew a Satanist in graduate school - not a Church of

> Satan member, but a member of some other Satanist church - " Gnostic

> Temple " or some such nam. She spent lots of her time working in soup

> kitchens, literacy projects, anti-drug-abuse programs, " Mothers

> Against Drunk Driving, " street-cleanup programs to get rid of

litter,

> programs against cruelty to animals, to raise money for job-training

> for people with disabilities, and similar causes. She did this

> because, in her belief, God wanted death and vice and cruelty and

evil

> but Satan wanted life and virtue and kindness and good. And I also

> know that, on at least one occasion, she saved a life. (I learned

this

> from the man whom she had saved.)

>

> Her church had very unusual religious teachings. According to those

> teachings, an evil one called " God " had created the universe as his

> own private amusement so that he and his friends could have fun

> throughout eternity watching people and animals go through all sorts

> of things including horrible suffering. Then (according to those

> teachings) someone good called " Satan " had rebelled against this,

had

> escaped from " God's " realm, and had vowed to fight back against evil

> in any way he could.

> This naturally made " God " angry, so (according to what her

> church believed) " God " then wrote many statements, books, and

messages

> all designed to make himself look good (including one called " The

> Bible " ) and started giving these out to all the different groups of

> people on Earth: not just to make " God " look good, but also to

create

> even more fun for " God " and his pals because the different

> books/statements/messages all disagreed with one another - so now

the

> different groups of humans could put on an even better show by

arguing

> and even killing each other over the question of who had gotten the

> right book!

> She (my Satanist classmate) used to quote a lot of stuff from

the

> various religious scriptures, including the Bible, to prove God's

> " evilness " as she saw it: for example, the Bible story where God

tells

> soldiers to wipe out the men, women, and boys of an enemy nation but

> to keep the virgin girls alive for themselves (Numbers 31:18).

>

> Question: does a person who does good in the name of Satan rank

> morally higher, or morally lower, than a person who does evil in the

> name of God?

>

>

> Yours for better letters,

> Kate Gladstone

> Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

> handwritingrepair@...

> http://learn.to/handwrite,

http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

> 325 South Manning Boulevard

> Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

> telephone 518/482-6763

> AND REMEMBER ...

> you can order books through my site!

> (Amazon.com link -

> I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

>

[Guest guest]

Tell me, please, how to join the Spiritual Aspie forum.

Hmmm - if religius queries, inquiries and discussions upset so

many people here, might it make sense to have a rule to limit those

discussions to the Spiritual Aspie forum? That would make life easier

for those of us who feel intruded on by questions/discussions about

their own and/or others' religions. I would gladly abide by such a

rule if we had it.

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

Re:

> Remember that in the OT God has clearly stated that Israelis are His

> chosen people and they will remain such for all time as long as the

> israelis are faithful to Him.

I don't know that the OT or any scripture tells the unadulterated

truth. After all, nothing would have stopped some Vietnamese guy (or

gal) from writing a book that claimed God (or Buddha, or someone)

chose the Vietnamese as his new chosen people, and/or claiming " the OT

was mistranslated at this point - where it says 'Israel' it really

means 'Vietnam' and anything else that is hard to understand on that

basis was mistranslated too, so all the Old Testament & New Testament

promises are really about us, not them. "

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

>

>>

> And of course I fight my enemies, no matter if with magic or not.

Someone

> attacks me, they'll be sorry, and it matters little if this is a

> physical attack or a magic attack.

>

> The idea of " harming " others is usually the last straw, when nothing

> else works and they don't leave you alone.

This scares me, Lwaxy, because my stepmother uses magic to fight her

enemies, including my father's children (me included), and has a

spell cast over him to keep him under her control. How does one,

anyone, define an 'enemy'? I tried to get along with her and he is my

father so I have some right to him (as little as he himself concedes.)

My stepmother is evil, so she may be an exception in your definition,

but still--we are her enemies because we come between her and her

having my father all to herself. If a human is allowed magic,

couldn't it easily be misused? Your statement makes me very

frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I do agree though, that dark elements have a tendency to try to

weasel their

> way into for example the New Age movement, by promoting magic as

something

> harmless or fun. (Any serious esoteric student knows to stay well

away from

> such things.)

>

>This is for sure. My stepmother is into the New Age movement and

there are demons that pose as old wise teachers there to help

their 'students'. The demons 'channel' through a person and say

things, like 'My dear' and other such niceties and impart 'wisdom'.

She told me once of a group she belonged to that met with

the 'laughing men', a group of spirits that just love to laugh! When

they went they came away laughing. Oh what fun! Not. I don't know if

that was her cover for her evil deeds or if that's where she learned

them.

>

[Guest guest]

the problem with the Spiritual Aspie forum is that once you start

quoting the Bible or any other text except esoteric ones at length,

Inger tells you to shut up.

Join at your own risk.

Tom

Administrator

Tell me, please, how to join the Spiritual Aspie forum.

Hmmm - if religius queries, inquiries and discussions upset so

many people here, might it make sense to have a rule to limit those

discussions to the Spiritual Aspie forum? That would make life easier

for those of us who feel intruded on by questions/discussions about

their own and/or others' religions. I would gladly abide by such a

rule if we had it.

[Guest guest]

It depends how much faith and trust you put in the Bible. I trust it

implicity, but even if I didn't, there is corroborrating historical

documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of

Biblical characters and events, and archeological evidence also

provides evidence for the existence of Biblical locations and objects

mentioned in the Bible.

This, and some of my own experiences that could be described as

supernatural have caused me to firmly believe that what is stated in

the Bible is true (for me).

Tom

Administrator

Re:

> Remember that in the OT God has clearly stated that Israelis are His

> chosen people and they will remain such for all time as long as the

> israelis are faithful to Him.

I don't know that the OT or any scripture tells the unadulterated

truth. After all, nothing would have stopped some Vietnamese guy (or

gal) from writing a book that claimed God (or Buddha, or someone)

chose the Vietnamese as his new chosen people, and/or claiming " the OT

was mistranslated at this point - where it says 'Israel' it really

means 'Vietnam' and anything else that is hard to understand on that

basis was mistranslated too, so all the Old Testament & New Testament

promises are really about us, not them. "

[Guest guest]

You needn't fear.

Remember what Rome's Chief Exorcists said:

" Q: Are you ever afraid of the Devil?

" AMORTH: Afraid of that beast? He's the one who should be afraid of

me because I work in the name of the Lord of the world. He is only

an ape of God. "

In the Christian religion, God made all things and His power trumps

those of all other dieties. To Him, they are like petty flies which

He can destroy on a whim. Were anyone to cast a spell onto you, you

would serve as an example of God's superior power once he overthrew

the spell.

If anything, other people should be frightened of you because the

Holy Spirit of God dwells within you.

Be strong in the Lord and he will be strong inside of you, even in

your weakness.

Tom

Administrator

" Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure

not to cross you. "

[Guest guest]

Re:

> ... corroborrating historical

> documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of

> Biblical characters and events,

Can you quote some of this? Archeologists/historians who specialize in

the Greek, Roman, and Hebrew cultures tell me that there exists

evidence for some of the Biblical people/events but not for others -

and apparently there also exists strong evidence *against* some of

these events. (For example, they have strong evidence that King Herod

really existed - but they have no evidence for, and at least some

evidence against, the existence of his Biblically reported massacre of

boys aged two and under.)

>and archeological evidence also

> provides evidence for the existence of Biblical locations and objects

> mentioned in the Bible.

Real locations and objects can of course exist within a fictional

story. If archeologists in the future dig up all the places, types of

artifacts, etc., that Agatha Christie mentions in her murder-mystery

novels, that would not mean that the murders (or other events in her

novels) ever happened, or that the people in her novels ever really

existed.

>

> This, and some of my own experiences that could be described as

> supernatural have caused me to firmly believe that what is stated in

> the Bible is true (for me).

Thanks for clarifying this. I'd like to know some of your supernatural

experiences. Of course, possibly other people here have had other

supernatural experiences that have caused them to firmly believe in

the truth of statements/books that disagree with the Bible - so

supernatural experience may not settle the question one way or the

other. I hope that disagreements (over experiences and what they tell

us, etc.) will remain friendly.

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the encouragement. How about: I needn't be overwhelmed by

fear? I don't want to be too cocky!

>

> " Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure

> not to cross you. "

>

[Guest guest]

Re:

>the problem with the Spiritual Aspie forum is that once you start

>quoting the Bible or any other text except esoteric ones at length,

>Inger tells you to shut up.

>

>Join at your own risk.

Thanks, Tom, for the warning. Of course, you know that, if anyone

*mis*quotes the Bible (or misquotes any other text that I can search

to establish that a misquotation has occurred), I'll point out the

misquotation no matter who wants to shut me up.

I have had to do this quite a lot in my life - e.g., with English

teachers who cited " Bible " quotes that actually came from Shakespeare,

or _vice_versa_.

So - now - how and where do I find the Spirital Aspie forum?

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

" ...corroborrating historical documentation in Roman and Greek

literature which makes mention of Biblical characters and events "

" Can you quote some of this? "

Yup.

I offer you the writing of the period by Roman, Jewish, and Pagan

writers which offer testimony to the existence of Jesus. I will

follow this with the history of Pontius Pilate in sources other than

Biblical ones.

There are many more writings and topics available, but too many to

list here.

RE: Jesus.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

A. Tacitus

We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the

statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly

superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the

procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His

religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only

throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the

conflux of all the streams of wickness and shamelessness;

furthermore, that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of

the burning of Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that

these latter were not guilty of arson, though they deserved their

fate on account of their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover,

describes some of the horrible torments to which Nero subjected the

Christians (Ann., XV, xliv). The Roman writer confounds the

Christians with the Jews, considering them as a especially abject

Jewish sect; how little he investigated the historical truth of even

the Jewish records may be inferred from the credulity with which he

accepted the absurd legends and calumnies about the origin of he

Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii, iv).

B. Suetonius

Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the

Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that

Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who

stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-

54): " Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius)

Roma expulit " (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that

emperor as a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of

the Christians: " Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita,

nec minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum

superstitious novae et maleficae " (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does

not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish

antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the

rights of the Christian Church.

C. Pliny the Younger

Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the

Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of

Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the

Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their

lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against

them excepting their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman

as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the

Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom

they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep.,

X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of

criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny

acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires

their constancy in the Faith (pervicacia et inflexibilis

obstinatio), which he appears to trace back to their worship of

Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere).

D. Other pagan writers

The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second

century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed

at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His

miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians

( " Philopseudes " , nn. 13, 16; " De Morte Pereg " ). There are also

alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, " Contra Cels " , IV,

51), to His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the

Crucifixion in Phlegon ( Origen, " Contra Cels. " , II, 14). Before the

end of the second century, the logos alethes of Celsus, as quoted by

Origen (Contra Cels., passim), testifies that at that time the facts

related in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true.

However scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they

bear at least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His

parables, His claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and

to the more striking characteristics of His religion.

II. JEWISH SOURCES

A. Philo

Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he

throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in

some of the Apostles. Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., II, iv) indeed

preserves a legend that Philo had met St. in Rome during his

mission to the Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the

contemplative life he describes the life of the Christian Church in

andria founded by St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and

Therapeutae. But it is hardly probable that Philo had heard enough

of Christ and His followers to give an historical foundation to the

foregoing legends.

B. phus

The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish

historian Flavius phus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of

the Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in

his " Antiquities " which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian

records are not disputed. In the one he reports the murder of "

called Baptist " by Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also 's

character and work; in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disappoves of

the sentence pronounced by the high priest Ananus against " ,

brother of Jesus Who was called Christ. " It is antecedently probable

that a writer so well informed as phus, must have been well

acquainted too with the doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ.

Seeing, also, that he records events of minor importance in the

history of the Jews, it would be surprising if he were to keep

silence about Jesus Christ. Consideration for the priests and

Pharisees did not prevent him from mentioning the judicial murders

of the Baptist and the Apostle ; his endeavour to find the

fulfilment of the Messianic prophecies in Vespasian did not induce

him to pass in silence over several Jewish sects, though their

tenets appear to be inconsistent with the Vespasian claims. One

naturally expects, therefore, a notice about Jesus Christ in

phus. Antiquities XVIII, iii, 3, seems to satisfy this

expectation:

About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to

call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of

such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many

Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at

the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned

Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him

(for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy

prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about

Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this

day.

A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work

of the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings:

those who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider

it to be wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little

of each.

Those who regard the passage as spurious

First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious.

The principal reasons for this view appear to be the following:

phus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and

on the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies

and expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities;

the above cited passage from phus is said to be unknown to

Origen and the earlier patristic writers;

its very place in the phan text is uncertain, since Eusebius

(Hist. Eccl., II, vi) must have found it before the notices

concerning Pilate, while it now stands after them.

But the spuriousness of the disputed phan passage does not imply

the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ.

phus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish

teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the

Temple at the age of twelve; the description of his shipwreck on his

journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. 's shipwreck as told in

the Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised

by the priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing

his supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away

the virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in

the later Jewish writings.

Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious

additions

A second class of critics do not regard the whole of phus's

testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the

interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons

assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two:

phus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized

Him as the Christ; hence part of our present phan text must be

genuine, part must be interpolated.

Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origen knew a

phan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present

reading; for, according to the great andrian doctor, phus

did not believe that Jesus was the Messias ( " In Matth. " , xiii,

55; " Contra Cels. " , I, 47).

Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that

phus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans;

consequently, when he says, " This was the Christ " , he does not

necessarily imply that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans

as the founder of the Christian religion.

Those who consider it to be completely genuine

The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage

concerning Jesus, as it is found today in phus, is genuine. The

main arguments for the genuineness of the phan passage are the

following:

First, all codices or manuscripts of phus's work contain the

text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must

suppose that all the copies of phus were in the hands of

Christians, and were changed in the same way.

Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. makes use

of phus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably

due to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded

phus, and to the relatively little authority he had among the

Roman readers. Writers of the age of Tertullian and could

appeal to living witnesses of the Apostolic tradition.

Third, Eusebius ( " Hist. Eccl " ., I, xi; cf. " Dem. Ev. " , III, v)

Sozomen (Hist. Eccl., I, i), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore

of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii),

Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of phus;

there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of

these illustrious writers.

Fourth, the complete silence of phus as to Jesus would have been

a more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this

latter contains no statement incompatible with its phan

authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was

the Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful

works of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so

incessantly urged by the Christians that without these attributes

the phan Jesus would hardly have been acknowledged as the

founder of Christianity.

All this does not necessarily imply that phus regarded Jesus as

the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His

Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a

Christian. A number of posssible subterfuges might have supplied the

Jewish historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not

embracing Christianity.

C. Other Jewish Sources

The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the

hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is

ascribed to an illicit ( " Acta Pilati " in Thilo, " Codex apocryph.

N.T., I, 526; cf. , " Apol. " , I, 35), or even an adulterous,

union of His parents (Origen, " Contra Cels., " I, 28, 32). The

father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara " Sanhedrin " ,

viii; " Schabbath " , xii, cf. Eisenmenger, " Entdecktes Judenthum " , I,

109; Schottgen, " Horae Hebraicae " , II, 696; Buxtorf, " Lex. Chald. " ,

Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, " Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri " ,

Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear

before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera

myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth

did not begin before the end of the first century.

The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the

murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, " Confut. Libr.Toldoth " , 15;

Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with

the flight into Egypt (cf. phus, " Ant. " XIII, xiii), with the

stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op.

cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ( " Sanhedrin " , 43a;

Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His

miracles (Origen, " Contra Cels " , II, 48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150;

Gemara " Sanhedrin " fol. 17); " Schabbath " , fol. 104b; Wagenseil,

op.cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, " Contra

Cels. " , I, 28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc.

cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, " Contra

cels. " , II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, " Hor.

Heb. " , 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc.

cit.,699 700; cf. " Sanhedrin " , vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, " Contra

Cels. " , II, 55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while

Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body

of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre.

Re: Pontius Pilate:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12083c.htm

After the deposition of the eldest son of Herod, Archelaus (who had

succeeded his father as ethnarch), Judea was placed under the rule

of a Roman procurator. Pilate, who was the fifth, succeeding

Valerius Gratus in A.D. 26, had greater authority than most

procurators under the empire, for in addition to the ordinary duty

of financial administration, he had supreme power judicially. His

unusually long period of office (A.D. 26-36) covers the whole of the

active ministry both of St. the Baptist and of Jesus Christ.

As procurator Pilate was necessarily of equestrian rank, but beyond

that we know little of his family or origin. Some have thought that

he was only a freedman, deriving his name from pileus (the cap of

freed slaves) but for this there seems to be no adequate evidence,

and it is unlikely that a freedman would attain to a post of such

importance. The Pontii were a Samnite gens. Pilate owed his

appointment to the influence of Sejanus. The official residence of

the procurators was the palace of Herod at Cæsarea; where there was

a military force of about 3,000 soldiers. These soldiers came up to

Jerusalem at the time of the feasts, when the city was full of

strangers, and there was greater danger of disturbances, hence it

was that Pilate had come to Jerusalem at the time of the

Crucifixion. His name will be forever covered with infamy because of

the part which he took in this matter, though at the time it

appeared to him of small importance.

Pilate is a type of the worldly man, knowing the right and anxious

to do it so far as it can be done without personal sacrifice of any

kind, but yielding easily to pressure from those whose interest it

is that he should act otherwise. He would gladly have acquitted

Christ, and even made serious efforts in that direction, but gave

way at once when his own position was threatened.

The other events of his rule are not of very great importance. Philo

(Ad Gaium, 38) speaks of him as inflexible, merciless, and

obstinate. The Jews hated him and his administration, for he was not

only very severe, but showed little consideration for their

susceptibilities. Some standards bearing the image of Tiberius,

which had been set up by him in Jerusalem, caused an outbreak which

would have ended in a massacre had not Pilate given way. At a later

date Tiberius ordered him to remove certain gilt shields, which he

had set up in Jerusalem in spite of the remonstrances of the people.

The incident mentioned in St. Luke 13:1, of the Galilaeans whose

blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices, is not elsewhere referred

to, but is quite in keeping with other authentic events of his rule.

He was, therefore, anxious that no further hostile reports should be

sent to the emperor concerning him.

The tendency, already discernible in the canonical Gospels, to lay

stress on the efforts of Pilate to acquit Christ, and thus pass as

lenient a judgment as possible upon his crime, goes further in the

apocryphal Gospels and led in later years to the claim that he

actually became a Christian. The Abyssinian Church reckons him as a

saint, and assigns 25 June to him and to Procula, his wife.

The belief that she became a Christian goes back to the second

century, and may be found in Origen (Hom., in Mat., xxxv). The Greek

Church assigns her a feast on 27 October. Tertullian and

Martyr both speak of a report on the Crucifixion (not extant) sent

in by Pilate to Tiberius, from which idea a large amount of

apocryphal literature originated. Some of these were Christian in

origin (Gospel of Nicodemus), others came from the heathen, but

these have all perished.

His rule was brought to an end through trouble which arose in

Samaria. An imposter had given out that it was in his power to

discover the sacred vessels which, as he alleged, had been hidden by

Moses on Mount Gerizim, whither armed Samaritans came in large

numbers. Pilate seems to have thought the whole affair was a blind,

covering some other more important design, for he hurried forces to

attack them, and many were slain. They appealed to Vitellius, who

was at that time legate in Syria, saying that nothing political had

been intended, and complaining of Pilate's whole administration. He

was summoned to Rome to answer their charges, but before he could

reach the city the Emperor Tiberius had died.

That is the last we know of Pilate from authentic sources, but

legend has been busy with his name. He is said by Eusebius (H.E.,

ii, 7), on the authority of earlier writers, whom he does not name,

to have fallen into great misfortunes under Caligula, and eventually

to have committed suicide. Other details come from less respectable

sources. His body, says the " Mors Pilati " , was thrown into the

Tiber, but the waters were so disturbed by evil spirits that the

body was taken to Vienne and sunk in the Rhône, where a monument,

called Pilate's tomb, is still to be seen. As the same thing

occurred there, it was again removed and sunk in the lake at

Lausanne. Its final disposition was in a deep and lonely mountain

tarn, which, according to later tradition, was on a mountain, still

called Pilatus, close to Lucerne. The real origin of this name is,

however, to be sought in the cap of cloud which often covers the

mountain, and serves as a barometer to the inhabitants of Lucerne.

The are many other legends about Pilate in the folklore of Germany,

but none of them have the slightest authority.

There are cross-references between the Bible and other texts.

http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000281.htm#aa0d8e79

Getting back to Ponius Pilate.

http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000472.htm#f174968a

Pontius Pilate

The fifth Roman procurator of Judea (ruled 26-36 AD), who issued the

official order sentencing Jesus to death by crucifixion (Mt 27; Mk

15; Lk 23; Jn 18-19).

The Jewish historian phus provides what little information is

known about Pilate's life before A. D. 26, when Tiberius appointed

him procurator of Judea. The sketchy data suggests that Pilate was

probably an Italianborn Roman citizen whose family was wealthy

enough for him to qualify for the middle class. Probably he held

certain military posts before his appointment in Judea.

He was married (Mt 27:19), bringing his wife, Procula, to

live with him at Caesarea, the headquarters of the province. Pilate

governed the areas of Judea, Samaria, and the area south as far as

the Dead Sea to Gaza. As procurator he had absolute authority over

the non-Roman citizens of the province. He was responsible to the

Roman governor who lived in Syria to the north (Lk 2:2).

Pilate never became popular with the Jews. He seemed to be

insensitive to their religious convictions and stubborn in the

pursuit of his policies. But when the Jews responded to his rule

with enraged opposition, he often backed down, demonstrating his

weakness. He greatly angered the Jews when he took funds from the

Temple treasury to build an aqueduct to supply water to Jerusalem.

Many Jews reacted violently to this act, and Pilate's soldiers

killed many of them in this rebellion. In spite of this, Pilate

continued in office for ten years, showing that Tiberius considered

Pilate an effective administrator.

Pilate's later history is also shrouded in mystery. phus tells

of a bloody encounter with the Samaritans, who filed a complaint

with Pilate's superior, Vitellius, the governor of Syria. Vitellius

deposed Pilate and ordered him to stand before the emperor in Rome

and answer for his conduct. Legends are confused as to how Pilate

died. Eusebius reports that he was exiled to the city of Vienne on

the Rhone in Gaul (France) where he eventually committed suicide.

Pilate's Encounter with Jesus. Since the Jews could not execute a

person without approval from the Roman authorities (Jn 18:31), the

Jewish leaders brought Jesus to Pilate to pronounce the death

sentence (Mk 14:64). Pilate seemed convinced that Jesus was not

guilty of anything deserving death, and he sought to release Jesus

(Mt. 27:24; Mk 15:9-11; Lk 23:14; Jn 18:38-40; 19:12). Neither did

he want to antagonize the Jews and run the risk of damaging his own

reputation and career. Thus, when they insisted on Jesus'

crucifixion, Pilate turned Jesus over to be executed (Mt. 27:26; Mk

15:12-15; Lk 23:20-25; Jn 19:15-16).

The Caesar's mentioned in the gospels are Augustus (Lk 2:1) and

Tiberius (Lk 3:1; 20:22).

Etc.

As for my spiritual experiences, I will consider telling about them

here. I have spoken of them in the Christian Aspie forum.

TheChristianAspieForum/

[Guest guest]

spiritualaspie/

> So - now - how and where do I find the Spirital Aspie forum?

[Guest guest]

" About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a

performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to

accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the

Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among

us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the

first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named

from him, are not extinct to this day. "

Antiquities, Book 18, 63-64.

He also said that the High Priest Ananias had:

" Convened the Sanhedrin (the highest Jewish religious court /

governing body). He had brought before them the brother of Jesus the

so-called Christ, who was called , and some other men, whom he

accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned. "

Antiquities, Book 20, 200.

Reference to Christianity by Emporer Constantine, First Emperor of

Rome:

http://www.request.org.uk/main/history/romans/constantine.htm

In 312 CE Constantine was about to lead his army in a battle that

would change the world. The soldiers of his enemy Maxentius faced

him at the Milvian Bridge outside Rome. The winner would become the

Roman Emperor.

Constantine was a pagan who worshipped the sun, and he was worried

about the coming battle. He says he started to pray to the " Supreme

God " for help.

There was a sign in the sky " above the sun " and with it the

words " conquer by this " . That night in a dream he said he saw Jesus

telling him to use the chi-rho sign " as a safeguard in all battles " .

Constantine ordered it to be put on his soldier's shields - and won

the battle. The symbol is made of the first two letters of 'Christ'

in Greek - chi (X) and rho (P) .

[Guest guest]

>Do people that are satanists that don't worship satan cast 'magic'

on other people that are satanists but don't worship satan when one

of them makes them mad?

>

> In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> mikecarrie01@... writes:

>

> This scares me, Lwaxy, because my stepmother uses magic to fight

her

> enemies, including my father's children (me included), and has a

> spell cast over him to keep him under her control. How does one,

> anyone, define an 'enemy'? I tried to get along with her and he

is my

> father so I have some right to him (as little as he himself

concedes.)

> My stepmother is evil, so she may be an exception in your

definition,

> but still--we are her enemies because we come between her and her

> having my father all to herself. If a human is allowed magic,

> couldn't it easily be misused? Your statement makes me very

> frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you.

>

>

>

> Very good points.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Like , I definitely have questions about some things in the

Bible - including some things that seem (to me) difficult to view as

" mysteries " and/or " Cliff's Notes " -style abridgments of what really

happened.

To see for yourself,

take the ULTIMATE BIBLE FACTS QUIZ (below) ... unlike other exams you

may have taken, this one gives you more than one chance to get things

right.

Of course, if you don't like long postings and/or quizzes and/or

Bible stuff, just delete this posting now.

ULTIMATE BIBLE FACTS QUIZ

/1/ During Creation, where did the first birds come from?

Genesis 1:20 says they came out of the water.

Genesis 2:19 says they came out of the ground.

/2/ At what age did Levites begin serving?

Age 30, according to Numbers 4:30

Age 25, according to Numbers 8:24

/3/ Fill in the blank:

was 's ___[number]th___ son.

's seventh son, says 1st Chronicles 2:15

's eighth son, says 1st 16:10-11

/4/ How did kill Goliath?

With a sling and stone, in First 17:50

With a sword, in First 17:51

/5/ Who gave the bread in the shrine at Nob?

Ahimelech, say 1st 21:1 and 6 and

1st 22:20.

Abiathar the son of Ahimelech, says Mark 2:25-26

/6/ Who killed Saul?

He committed suicide in 1st 31:4-5

An Amalekite killed him in 2nd 1:4-10

Philistines killed him in 2nd 21:12

God killed him in 1st Chronicles 10:14

/7/ Who induced to take a census of Israel?

God, according to 2nd 24:1

Satan, according to 1st Chronicles 21:1

/8/ How many horsemen did capture in his battle with Hadadezer?

Seven hundred, according to 2nd 8:4

Seven thousand, according to 1st Chronicles 18:4

/9/ How many Syrian charioteers did kill in that battle?

Seven hundred, says 2nd 10:18

Seven thousand, says 1st Chronicles 19:18

/10/ Name the military specialty of the 40,000 other casualties in that battle.

Horsemen, according to 2nd 10:18

Footmen, according to 1st Chronicles 19:18

/12/ To get land to build his altar, bought some property. What

did he buy, whom did he buy it from, how much did he pay, and in what

currency?

2nd 24:18 and 24-25 say bought from Araunah, and

paid Araunah 50 shekels of silver for a threshing-floor and oxen

1st Chronicles 21:22 and 25-26 say bought from Ornan, and

paid Ornan 600 shekels of gold for just the floor alone

/13/ 's temple had two pillars, named Jachin and Boaz. Name

the height of the two pillars.

Eighteen cubits, says 1st Kings 7:15,21

Thirty-five cubits, says 2nd Chronicle 3:15,17

/14/ Where did King Josiah die?

At Megiddo, in 2nd Kings 23:29-30

At Jerusalem, in 2nd Chronicles 35:23-24

/15/ At what age did King Jehoiachin begin to reign?

At age eight, in 2nd Chronicles 36:9

At age eighteen, in 2nd Kings 24:8

/16/ How many descendants of Arah returned from exile?

Seven hundred seventy-five, says Ezra 2:5

Six hundred fifty-two, says Nehemiah 7:10

/17/ From which son and grandson of did Jesus' paternal line descend?

From 's son and grandson Roboam, says 1:1-7

From 's son and grandson Mattatha, says Luke 3:23 and 31

/18/ Name the father of the ph who married .

, according to 1:16

Heli, according to Luke 3:23

(Some people explain this one by saying that the list in Luke actually

shows 's genealogy, but unfortunately for this explanation Luke

3:23 clearly says " son of Heli, " not " son-in-law of Heli " . The word

for " son " that appears in that verse appears throughout this entire

list of fathers and sons.)

/19/ According to Jesus' instructions to his disciples, could they

have shoes and staves?

Yes, says Mark 6:8-9

No, says 10:10

/20/ Did the centurion himself come to Jesus?

Yes, he came himself, says 8:5-6

No, he sent others, says Luke 7:3,6

/21/ When did Jesus curse the fig tree?

After going to the temple, says 21:12

Before going to the temple, says Mark 11:13-15

/22/ Right before Jesus got arrested, who revealed him, and what did

the crowd do then?

Judas revealed Jesus and then the crowd took him, say

26:48-50 and Mark 14:43-46

Jesus revealed himself, and then the crowd fell back, says

18:3-6 (Jesus revealed himself, and the crowd then fell back.)

18:3-6

/23/ What did Jesus say before Pontius Pilate?

Nothing, according to 27:13-14

A lot, according to 18:33-37, 19:11

/24/ People at the crucifixion offered Jesus a drink make of wine

mixed with ___[what?]____

With myrrh, according to Mark 15:23

With gall, according to 27:34

/25/ How many crucified thieves reviled Jesus?

Both of them, says 27:44

Only one, says Luke 23:39-43

/26/ What did Judas do with the money that the Temple gave him?

He used it to buy himself a field, says Acts 1:18

He gave it back to the Temple and the priests used it to buy

themselves a field, says Mathew 27:3-7

/27/ How did Judas die?

He hanged himself in 27:5

He fell and burst open in Acts 1:18

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

>

> I have had to do this quite a lot in my life - e.g., with

English

> teachers who cited " Bible " quotes that actually came from

Shakespeare,

> or _vice_versa_.

>

>Like: 'cleanliness is next to godliness'. Everyone thinks that's in

the bible.

>

> Yours for better letters,

> Kate Gladstone

> Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

> handwritingrepair@...

> http://learn.to/handwrite,

http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

> 325 South Manning Boulevard

> Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

> telephone 518/482-6763

> AND REMEMBER ...

> you can order books through my site!

> (Amazon.com link -

> I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

>

[Guest guest]

Re:

On 3/21/06, mikecarrie01 <mikecarrie01@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > I have had to do this quite a lot in my life - e.g., with

> English

> > teachers who cited " Bible " quotes that actually came from

> Shakespeare,

> > or _vice_versa_.

> >

> >Like: 'cleanliness is next to godliness'. Everyone thinks that's in

> the bible.

Yes - I've had two run-ins with that one:

once with an English-teacher (and part-time deaconess in her

church) who claimed it came from the Bible (and who took 15 points off

my classroom grade when I asked her after class " What chapter and

verse, ma'am, because I've searched a concordance and can't find it

anywhere?),

and once with another English-teacher (teaching English

literature) in a different school, who claimed it came from

Shakespeare (it doesn't come from there, either - when, early in the

term, I asked " Where in Shakespeare, please? " he gave me the " option "

of either immediately failing his course or doing three extra

full-length assignments during the next month: I took the latter

option because, given a choice, I will not accept failure as a

" reward " for honest and needed questions ... but, as he admitted, when

he received my three papers he arbitrarily subtracted 10 points from

each paper before even reading the paper " as a corrective for your

insubordination. If you had not been insubordinate, you would not have

been given the opportunity to have these papers assigned to you, and

therefore your grade on each paper needs to reflect that. " )

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

Re:

> I don't feel like going through all of these and pointing out the

> falsities in the contradictions. I'm too lazy.

Your prerogative, Tom, and I won't press you or anyone else to do so -

despite my curiosity as to where you found falsities in (e.g.) the

Bible's four answers to " who killed Saul? "

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

Re:

> I don't feel like going through all of these and pointing out the

> falsities in the contradictions. I'm too lazy.

Kate said:

" Your prerogative, Tom, and I won't press you or anyone else to do

so - despite my curiosity as to where you found falsities in (e.g.)

the Bible's four answers to " who killed Saul? "

Kate...the test is designed by ignorant people who have no knowledge

of the Bible and no ability to actually read and understand the

passages. Their interest is in torpedoing its honesty and all that

it stands for.

You are clearly able to come to the same conclusion if you simply

READ THE PASSAGES and LOOK AT WHAT THEY SAY.

I have fleshed everything out for you below.

/6/ Who killed Saul?

He committed suicide in 1st 31:4-5

An Amalekite killed him in 2nd 1:4-10

Philistines killed him in 2nd 21:12

God killed him in 1st Chronicles 10:14

1Sa 31:4 Saul groaned to his armor bearer, " Take your sword and

kill me before these pagan Philistines run me through and humiliate

me. " But his armor bearer was afraid and would not do it. So Saul

took his own sword and fell on it.

1Sa 31:5 When his armor bearer realized that Saul was dead, he

fell on his own sword and died beside the king.

<snip>

2Sa 1:4 " What happened? " demanded. " Tell me how the battle

went. " The man replied, " Our entire army fled. Many men are dead and

wounded on the battlefield, and Saul and his son have been

killed. "

2Sa 1:5 " How do you know that Saul and are dead? "

demanded.

2Sa 1:6 The young man answered, " I happened to be on Mount Gilboa.

I saw Saul there leaning on his spear with the enemy chariots

closing in on him.

2Sa 1:7 When he turned and saw me, he cried out for me to come to

him. `How can I help?' I asked him.

2Sa 1:8 And he said to me, `Who are you?' I replied, `I am an

Amalekite.'

2Sa 1:9 Then he begged me, `Come over here and put me out of my

misery, for I am in terrible pain and want to die.'

2Sa 1:10 " So I killed him, " the Amalekite told , " for I knew

he couldn't live. Then I took his crown and one of his bracelets so

I could bring them to you, my lord. "

1 31:4 gives what actually happened while 2 1:8-10

only gives what the Amalekite said happened.

Most probably, the Amalekite took the opportunity to benefit from

the King's death, gathered his crown and bracelet and then brought

them to . Unfortunately for the Amalekite, said in 2

1:13-16, " And said to the young man who told

him, " Where are you from? " And he answered, " I am the son of an

alien, an Amalekite. " 14Then said to him, " How is it you were

not afraid to stretch out your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed? "

15And called one of the young men and said, " Go, cut him

down. " So he struck him and he died. 16And said to him, " Your

blood is on your head, for your mouth has testified against you,

saying, `I have killed the Lord's anointed.' "

The Amalekite probably thought he'd benefit from bringing the King's

possessions to , but his plan backfired.

All it says in the following passage is that Saul died in a battle

with the Philistines, it doesn't say how.

2Sa 21:12 he went to the people of Jabesh-gilead and asked for the

bones of Saul and his son . (When Saul and had died

in a battle with the Philistines, it was the people of Jabesh-gilead

who had retrieved their bodies from the public square of the

Philistine city of Beth-shan.)

The final passage quoted in your test is explained when taken in

context:

1Ch 10:3 The fighting grew very fierce around Saul, and the

Philistine archers caught up with him and wounded him severely.

1Ch 10:4 Saul groaned to his armor bearer, " Take your sword and

run me through before these pagan Philistines come and humiliate

me. " But his armor bearer was afraid and would not do it. So Saul

took his own sword and fell on it.

1Ch 10:5 When his armor bearer realized that Saul was dead, he

fell on his own sword and died.

1Ch 10:6 So Saul and his three sons died there together, bringing

his dynasty to an end.

1Ch 10:7 When the Israelites in the Jezreel Valley saw that their

army had been routed and that Saul and his sons were dead, they

abandoned their towns and fled. So the Philistines moved in and

occupied their towns.

1Ch 10:8 The next day when the Philistines went out to strip the

dead, they found the bodies of Saul and his sons on Mount Gilboa.

1Ch 10:9 So they stripped off Saul's armor and cut off his head.

Then they proclaimed the news of Saul's death before their idols and

to the people throughout the land of Philistia.

1Ch 10:10 They placed his armor in the temple of their gods, and

they fastened his head to the wall in the temple of Dagon.

1Ch 10:11 But when the people of Jabesh-gilead heard what the

Philistines had done to Saul,

1Ch 10:12 their warriors went out and brought the bodies of Saul

and his three sons back to Jabesh. Then they buried their remains

beneath the oak tree at Jabesh, and they fasted for seven days.

1Ch 10:13 So Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord. He

failed to obey the Lord's command, and he even consulted a medium

1Ch 10:14 instead of asking the Lord for guidance. So the Lord

killed him and turned his kingdom over to son of .

The Lord killed Saul by putting himself in a position whereby he

felt he had no recouse but to fall on his sword.

He did this as punishment for Saul, ergo the Lord killed him.

Tom

Administrator