Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Tom, please... Can't you save this for your Christian forum so that those who wish to discuss it can join you there? Inger Re: Satanism Remember that in the OT God has clearly stated that Israelis are His chosen people and they will remain such for all time as long as the israelis are faithful to Him. God makes no such promises to any other nation or group of people except Christians in the New Testament where he promises rewards in Heaven for those who suffer on God's behalf. I believe that God's promise to the Israeli people has never waivered. In the last century, you had a nation of devoted followers for Israel and you had the entire Arab world conspiring to destroy them. Though Arabs had the advantage logistically, in terms of ground forces, and in terms of number of troops, not only did Israel defeat the Arabs, but they conquered additional territory as well. By contrast, Hussein claimed Allah would cause the US to be defeated in the " Mother of all Battles. " The Mother of all Battles occured (twice), but it was Hussein who was defeated and eventually deposed. Could it be that the resason for this was that thge US defended Israeli in Gulf War I and God promised to stand by any nation that support Israel? If the Israelis were able to defeat the Arabs with fewer men and a lesser amount of military hardware in the Six Day War, it stands to reason that Hussein, if backed by God, could have defeated the US. But in Vietnam, the US was acting in its own interest. Not Israel's. So it's possible that God remained impartial in the conflict, or handed victory over to those He felt desaerved it. Tom Administrator " The Bible states that God had the Israelis inflict horrible casualties on their enemies to show these nations they conquered which nation(Israel) was supported by God, and what God could do for a people that believed in Him. " Kate replied: That has always scared me - probably because I first learned some of these Bible stories during the worst part of the Vietnam war. When the USA army suffered horrible casualties at the hands of a much smaller nation (Vietnam), someone could presumably have used the same logic to claim that God supported Vietnam against the USA. FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. Check the Links section for more FAM forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 In a message dated 3/20/2006 9:47:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes: Many times, over and over again, God would tell the Israelis that their army was too big and to halve or even reduce in greater numbers their armies so that their might, as granted by God, could be witnessed by the opposition. There are stories of hundreds of Israelis killing thousands of the oponent, and this was due to the oponent continually defying the Israelis, and therefore God, since the Israelis were God's chosen people.TomAdministrator Offense is also easier than defense, to an extent. Taking the enemy by surprise or luring them onto a field favorable to your forces can go a long way toward evening the odds. Morale also has a lot to do with. There have been examples of this from more modern times. During some of the wars in ia (now Zimabew) incidents like this happened. Soldier would be landed by helicopter in front of an enemy position at night. They would advance the enemy and open fire with magazines full of tracers rounds. This would panic the defenders into fleeing, straight into the stealthily positioned troops in the forest on the other side of the camp. I'm not at saying God didn't have a hand in the Old Testament battles. Some of the military leaders actually had very little or no military experience, yet they came up with brilliant tactics. That inspiration could well have come from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Kate is not Christian yet has expressed an interest in these matters. Additionally, she has asked questions from Strict about the Mormon faith. It would be unfair to have either Kate or Strict restrict their discussions to a forum that may not be in keeping with their religious values. Perhaps they can join the Spiritual Aspie forum where all religious topics may be discussed freely without any fear of people getting banned for reasons personal or otherwise? Even better, let them talk here where they may talk in REAL freedom amomg those of all religions. Secret Society's subject matter tends to wander, and I am sure that it will wander away from religious topics after awhile. Tom Administrator Tom, please... Can't you save this for your Christian forum so that those who wish to discuss it can join you there? Inger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes: This scares me, Lwaxy, because my stepmother uses magic to fight her enemies, including my father's children (me included), and has a spell cast over him to keep him under her control. How does one, anyone, define an 'enemy'? I tried to get along with her and he is my father so I have some right to him (as little as he himself concedes.)My stepmother is evil, so she may be an exception in your definition, but still--we are her enemies because we come between her and her having my father all to herself. If a human is allowed magic, couldn't it easily be misused? Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you. Very good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 In a message dated 3/20/2006 4:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes: It depends how much faith and trust you put in the Bible. I trust it implicity, but even if I didn't, there is corroborrating historical documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of Biblical characters and events, and archeological evidence also provides evidence for the existence of Biblical locations and objects mentioned in the Bible.This, and some of my own experiences that could be described as supernatural have caused me to firmly believe that what is stated in the Bible is true (for me). TomAdministrator There are some things I have questions about in the Bible. Most of those though are in Genesis and seem rather hard to fathom based on scientific evidence. However, I simply view these as mysteries and will be fully explained one day, probably after I die. Some of the stories, especially in the creation cycle could be a kind of "Cliff's Notes" version of creation. After all, would a barely bronze age people understand concepts of quantum physics, nuclear physics, gravity and particlularly the great distances and time involved in it all? Since most modern humans can't, I don't think they could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Well, that's a clever little flip-flop. I see the bigger problem here of how this belief brings reproach on God and the bible and causes confusion but in the case of the individual persons who can say? People can pretend to be good and do good deeds but are not good. People can be doing bad things but have good hearts and need help. 'Satan' is just a name to this person you knew, so while I believe the real Satan is laughing his head off, she appears good and innocent. > > (I actually knew a Satanist in graduate school - not a Church of > Satan member, but a member of some other Satanist church - " Gnostic > Temple " or some such nam. She spent lots of her time working in soup > kitchens, literacy projects, anti-drug-abuse programs, " Mothers > Against Drunk Driving, " street-cleanup programs to get rid of litter, > programs against cruelty to animals, to raise money for job-training > for people with disabilities, and similar causes. She did this > because, in her belief, God wanted death and vice and cruelty and evil > but Satan wanted life and virtue and kindness and good. And I also > know that, on at least one occasion, she saved a life. (I learned this > from the man whom she had saved.) > > Her church had very unusual religious teachings. According to those > teachings, an evil one called " God " had created the universe as his > own private amusement so that he and his friends could have fun > throughout eternity watching people and animals go through all sorts > of things including horrible suffering. Then (according to those > teachings) someone good called " Satan " had rebelled against this, had > escaped from " God's " realm, and had vowed to fight back against evil > in any way he could. > This naturally made " God " angry, so (according to what her > church believed) " God " then wrote many statements, books, and messages > all designed to make himself look good (including one called " The > Bible " ) and started giving these out to all the different groups of > people on Earth: not just to make " God " look good, but also to create > even more fun for " God " and his pals because the different > books/statements/messages all disagreed with one another - so now the > different groups of humans could put on an even better show by arguing > and even killing each other over the question of who had gotten the > right book! > She (my Satanist classmate) used to quote a lot of stuff from the > various religious scriptures, including the Bible, to prove God's > " evilness " as she saw it: for example, the Bible story where God tells > soldiers to wipe out the men, women, and boys of an enemy nation but > to keep the virgin girls alive for themselves (Numbers 31:18). > > Question: does a person who does good in the name of Satan rank > morally higher, or morally lower, than a person who does evil in the > name of God? > > > Yours for better letters, > Kate Gladstone > Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest > handwritingrepair@... > http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair > 325 South Manning Boulevard > Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA > telephone 518/482-6763 > AND REMEMBER ... > you can order books through my site! > (Amazon.com link - > I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Tell me, please, how to join the Spiritual Aspie forum. Hmmm - if religius queries, inquiries and discussions upset so many people here, might it make sense to have a rule to limit those discussions to the Spiritual Aspie forum? That would make life easier for those of us who feel intruded on by questions/discussions about their own and/or others' religions. I would gladly abide by such a rule if we had it. Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Re: > Remember that in the OT God has clearly stated that Israelis are His > chosen people and they will remain such for all time as long as the > israelis are faithful to Him. I don't know that the OT or any scripture tells the unadulterated truth. After all, nothing would have stopped some Vietnamese guy (or gal) from writing a book that claimed God (or Buddha, or someone) chose the Vietnamese as his new chosen people, and/or claiming " the OT was mistranslated at this point - where it says 'Israel' it really means 'Vietnam' and anything else that is hard to understand on that basis was mistranslated too, so all the Old Testament & New Testament promises are really about us, not them. " Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 > >> > And of course I fight my enemies, no matter if with magic or not. Someone > attacks me, they'll be sorry, and it matters little if this is a > physical attack or a magic attack. > > The idea of " harming " others is usually the last straw, when nothing > else works and they don't leave you alone. This scares me, Lwaxy, because my stepmother uses magic to fight her enemies, including my father's children (me included), and has a spell cast over him to keep him under her control. How does one, anyone, define an 'enemy'? I tried to get along with her and he is my father so I have some right to him (as little as he himself concedes.) My stepmother is evil, so she may be an exception in your definition, but still--we are her enemies because we come between her and her having my father all to herself. If a human is allowed magic, couldn't it easily be misused? Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 > > I do agree though, that dark elements have a tendency to try to weasel their > way into for example the New Age movement, by promoting magic as something > harmless or fun. (Any serious esoteric student knows to stay well away from > such things.) > >This is for sure. My stepmother is into the New Age movement and there are demons that pose as old wise teachers there to help their 'students'. The demons 'channel' through a person and say things, like 'My dear' and other such niceties and impart 'wisdom'. She told me once of a group she belonged to that met with the 'laughing men', a group of spirits that just love to laugh! When they went they came away laughing. Oh what fun! Not. I don't know if that was her cover for her evil deeds or if that's where she learned them. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 the problem with the Spiritual Aspie forum is that once you start quoting the Bible or any other text except esoteric ones at length, Inger tells you to shut up. Join at your own risk. Tom Administrator Tell me, please, how to join the Spiritual Aspie forum. Hmmm - if religius queries, inquiries and discussions upset so many people here, might it make sense to have a rule to limit those discussions to the Spiritual Aspie forum? That would make life easier for those of us who feel intruded on by questions/discussions about their own and/or others' religions. I would gladly abide by such a rule if we had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 It depends how much faith and trust you put in the Bible. I trust it implicity, but even if I didn't, there is corroborrating historical documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of Biblical characters and events, and archeological evidence also provides evidence for the existence of Biblical locations and objects mentioned in the Bible. This, and some of my own experiences that could be described as supernatural have caused me to firmly believe that what is stated in the Bible is true (for me). Tom Administrator Re: > Remember that in the OT God has clearly stated that Israelis are His > chosen people and they will remain such for all time as long as the > israelis are faithful to Him. I don't know that the OT or any scripture tells the unadulterated truth. After all, nothing would have stopped some Vietnamese guy (or gal) from writing a book that claimed God (or Buddha, or someone) chose the Vietnamese as his new chosen people, and/or claiming " the OT was mistranslated at this point - where it says 'Israel' it really means 'Vietnam' and anything else that is hard to understand on that basis was mistranslated too, so all the Old Testament & New Testament promises are really about us, not them. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 You needn't fear. Remember what Rome's Chief Exorcists said: " Q: Are you ever afraid of the Devil? " AMORTH: Afraid of that beast? He's the one who should be afraid of me because I work in the name of the Lord of the world. He is only an ape of God. " In the Christian religion, God made all things and His power trumps those of all other dieties. To Him, they are like petty flies which He can destroy on a whim. Were anyone to cast a spell onto you, you would serve as an example of God's superior power once he overthrew the spell. If anything, other people should be frightened of you because the Holy Spirit of God dwells within you. Be strong in the Lord and he will be strong inside of you, even in your weakness. Tom Administrator " Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Re: > ... corroborrating historical > documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of > Biblical characters and events, Can you quote some of this? Archeologists/historians who specialize in the Greek, Roman, and Hebrew cultures tell me that there exists evidence for some of the Biblical people/events but not for others - and apparently there also exists strong evidence *against* some of these events. (For example, they have strong evidence that King Herod really existed - but they have no evidence for, and at least some evidence against, the existence of his Biblically reported massacre of boys aged two and under.) >and archeological evidence also > provides evidence for the existence of Biblical locations and objects > mentioned in the Bible. Real locations and objects can of course exist within a fictional story. If archeologists in the future dig up all the places, types of artifacts, etc., that Agatha Christie mentions in her murder-mystery novels, that would not mean that the murders (or other events in her novels) ever happened, or that the people in her novels ever really existed. > > This, and some of my own experiences that could be described as > supernatural have caused me to firmly believe that what is stated in > the Bible is true (for me). Thanks for clarifying this. I'd like to know some of your supernatural experiences. Of course, possibly other people here have had other supernatural experiences that have caused them to firmly believe in the truth of statements/books that disagree with the Bible - so supernatural experience may not settle the question one way or the other. I hope that disagreements (over experiences and what they tell us, etc.) will remain friendly. Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Thanks for the encouragement. How about: I needn't be overwhelmed by fear? I don't want to be too cocky! > > " Your statement makes me very frightened of you and I will be sure > not to cross you. " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Re: >the problem with the Spiritual Aspie forum is that once you start >quoting the Bible or any other text except esoteric ones at length, >Inger tells you to shut up. > >Join at your own risk. Thanks, Tom, for the warning. Of course, you know that, if anyone *mis*quotes the Bible (or misquotes any other text that I can search to establish that a misquotation has occurred), I'll point out the misquotation no matter who wants to shut me up. I have had to do this quite a lot in my life - e.g., with English teachers who cited " Bible " quotes that actually came from Shakespeare, or _vice_versa_. So - now - how and where do I find the Spirital Aspie forum? Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 " ...corroborrating historical documentation in Roman and Greek literature which makes mention of Biblical characters and events " " Can you quote some of this? " Yup. I offer you the writing of the period by Roman, Jewish, and Pagan writers which offer testimony to the existence of Jesus. I will follow this with the history of Pontius Pilate in sources other than Biblical ones. There are many more writings and topics available, but too many to list here. RE: Jesus. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm A. Tacitus We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the conflux of all the streams of wickness and shamelessness; furthermore, that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of the burning of Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that these latter were not guilty of arson, though they deserved their fate on account of their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover, describes some of the horrible torments to which Nero subjected the Christians (Ann., XV, xliv). The Roman writer confounds the Christians with the Jews, considering them as a especially abject Jewish sect; how little he investigated the historical truth of even the Jewish records may be inferred from the credulity with which he accepted the absurd legends and calumnies about the origin of he Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii, iv). B. Suetonius Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41- 54): " Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit " (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that emperor as a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of the Christians: " Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita, nec minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum superstitious novae et maleficae " (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the rights of the Christian Church. C. Pliny the Younger Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith (pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio), which he appears to trace back to their worship of Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere). D. Other pagan writers The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians ( " Philopseudes " , nn. 13, 16; " De Morte Pereg " ). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, " Contra Cels " , IV, 51), to His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the Crucifixion in Phlegon ( Origen, " Contra Cels. " , II, 14). Before the end of the second century, the logos alethes of Celsus, as quoted by Origen (Contra Cels., passim), testifies that at that time the facts related in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true. However scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they bear at least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His parables, His claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and to the more striking characteristics of His religion. II. JEWISH SOURCES A. Philo Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in some of the Apostles. Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., II, iv) indeed preserves a legend that Philo had met St. in Rome during his mission to the Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the contemplative life he describes the life of the Christian Church in andria founded by St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is hardly probable that Philo had heard enough of Christ and His followers to give an historical foundation to the foregoing legends. B. phus The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish historian Flavius phus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of the Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in his " Antiquities " which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian records are not disputed. In the one he reports the murder of " called Baptist " by Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also 's character and work; in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disappoves of the sentence pronounced by the high priest Ananus against " , brother of Jesus Who was called Christ. " It is antecedently probable that a writer so well informed as phus, must have been well acquainted too with the doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ. Seeing, also, that he records events of minor importance in the history of the Jews, it would be surprising if he were to keep silence about Jesus Christ. Consideration for the priests and Pharisees did not prevent him from mentioning the judicial murders of the Baptist and the Apostle ; his endeavour to find the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecies in Vespasian did not induce him to pass in silence over several Jewish sects, though their tenets appear to be inconsistent with the Vespasian claims. One naturally expects, therefore, a notice about Jesus Christ in phus. Antiquities XVIII, iii, 3, seems to satisfy this expectation: About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day. A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work of the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings: those who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider it to be wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little of each. Those who regard the passage as spurious First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious. The principal reasons for this view appear to be the following: phus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and on the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies and expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities; the above cited passage from phus is said to be unknown to Origen and the earlier patristic writers; its very place in the phan text is uncertain, since Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., II, vi) must have found it before the notices concerning Pilate, while it now stands after them. But the spuriousness of the disputed phan passage does not imply the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ. phus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the Temple at the age of twelve; the description of his shipwreck on his journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. 's shipwreck as told in the Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised by the priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing his supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away the virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in the later Jewish writings. Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious additions A second class of critics do not regard the whole of phus's testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two: phus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized Him as the Christ; hence part of our present phan text must be genuine, part must be interpolated. Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origen knew a phan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present reading; for, according to the great andrian doctor, phus did not believe that Jesus was the Messias ( " In Matth. " , xiii, 55; " Contra Cels. " , I, 47). Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that phus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans; consequently, when he says, " This was the Christ " , he does not necessarily imply that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans as the founder of the Christian religion. Those who consider it to be completely genuine The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage concerning Jesus, as it is found today in phus, is genuine. The main arguments for the genuineness of the phan passage are the following: First, all codices or manuscripts of phus's work contain the text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose that all the copies of phus were in the hands of Christians, and were changed in the same way. Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. makes use of phus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably due to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded phus, and to the relatively little authority he had among the Roman readers. Writers of the age of Tertullian and could appeal to living witnesses of the Apostolic tradition. Third, Eusebius ( " Hist. Eccl " ., I, xi; cf. " Dem. Ev. " , III, v) Sozomen (Hist. Eccl., I, i), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii), Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of phus; there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these illustrious writers. Fourth, the complete silence of phus as to Jesus would have been a more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this latter contains no statement incompatible with its phan authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was the Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful works of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so incessantly urged by the Christians that without these attributes the phan Jesus would hardly have been acknowledged as the founder of Christianity. All this does not necessarily imply that phus regarded Jesus as the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a Christian. A number of posssible subterfuges might have supplied the Jewish historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not embracing Christianity. C. Other Jewish Sources The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ( " Acta Pilati " in Thilo, " Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. , " Apol. " , I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, " Contra Cels., " I, 28, 32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara " Sanhedrin " , viii; " Schabbath " , xii, cf. Eisenmenger, " Entdecktes Judenthum " , I, 109; Schottgen, " Horae Hebraicae " , II, 696; Buxtorf, " Lex. Chald. " , Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, " Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri " , Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end of the first century. The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, " Confut. Libr.Toldoth " , 15; Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the flight into Egypt (cf. phus, " Ant. " XIII, xiii), with the stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ( " Sanhedrin " , 43a; Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen, " Contra Cels " , II, 48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara " Sanhedrin " fol. 17); " Schabbath " , fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op.cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, " Contra Cels. " , I, 28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, " Contra cels. " , II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, " Hor. Heb. " , 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit.,699 700; cf. " Sanhedrin " , vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, " Contra Cels. " , II, 55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre. Re: Pontius Pilate: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12083c.htm After the deposition of the eldest son of Herod, Archelaus (who had succeeded his father as ethnarch), Judea was placed under the rule of a Roman procurator. Pilate, who was the fifth, succeeding Valerius Gratus in A.D. 26, had greater authority than most procurators under the empire, for in addition to the ordinary duty of financial administration, he had supreme power judicially. His unusually long period of office (A.D. 26-36) covers the whole of the active ministry both of St. the Baptist and of Jesus Christ. As procurator Pilate was necessarily of equestrian rank, but beyond that we know little of his family or origin. Some have thought that he was only a freedman, deriving his name from pileus (the cap of freed slaves) but for this there seems to be no adequate evidence, and it is unlikely that a freedman would attain to a post of such importance. The Pontii were a Samnite gens. Pilate owed his appointment to the influence of Sejanus. The official residence of the procurators was the palace of Herod at Cæsarea; where there was a military force of about 3,000 soldiers. These soldiers came up to Jerusalem at the time of the feasts, when the city was full of strangers, and there was greater danger of disturbances, hence it was that Pilate had come to Jerusalem at the time of the Crucifixion. His name will be forever covered with infamy because of the part which he took in this matter, though at the time it appeared to him of small importance. Pilate is a type of the worldly man, knowing the right and anxious to do it so far as it can be done without personal sacrifice of any kind, but yielding easily to pressure from those whose interest it is that he should act otherwise. He would gladly have acquitted Christ, and even made serious efforts in that direction, but gave way at once when his own position was threatened. The other events of his rule are not of very great importance. Philo (Ad Gaium, 38) speaks of him as inflexible, merciless, and obstinate. The Jews hated him and his administration, for he was not only very severe, but showed little consideration for their susceptibilities. Some standards bearing the image of Tiberius, which had been set up by him in Jerusalem, caused an outbreak which would have ended in a massacre had not Pilate given way. At a later date Tiberius ordered him to remove certain gilt shields, which he had set up in Jerusalem in spite of the remonstrances of the people. The incident mentioned in St. Luke 13:1, of the Galilaeans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices, is not elsewhere referred to, but is quite in keeping with other authentic events of his rule. He was, therefore, anxious that no further hostile reports should be sent to the emperor concerning him. The tendency, already discernible in the canonical Gospels, to lay stress on the efforts of Pilate to acquit Christ, and thus pass as lenient a judgment as possible upon his crime, goes further in the apocryphal Gospels and led in later years to the claim that he actually became a Christian. The Abyssinian Church reckons him as a saint, and assigns 25 June to him and to Procula, his wife. The belief that she became a Christian goes back to the second century, and may be found in Origen (Hom., in Mat., xxxv). The Greek Church assigns her a feast on 27 October. Tertullian and Martyr both speak of a report on the Crucifixion (not extant) sent in by Pilate to Tiberius, from which idea a large amount of apocryphal literature originated. Some of these were Christian in origin (Gospel of Nicodemus), others came from the heathen, but these have all perished. His rule was brought to an end through trouble which arose in Samaria. An imposter had given out that it was in his power to discover the sacred vessels which, as he alleged, had been hidden by Moses on Mount Gerizim, whither armed Samaritans came in large numbers. Pilate seems to have thought the whole affair was a blind, covering some other more important design, for he hurried forces to attack them, and many were slain. They appealed to Vitellius, who was at that time legate in Syria, saying that nothing political had been intended, and complaining of Pilate's whole administration. He was summoned to Rome to answer their charges, but before he could reach the city the Emperor Tiberius had died. That is the last we know of Pilate from authentic sources, but legend has been busy with his name. He is said by Eusebius (H.E., ii, 7), on the authority of earlier writers, whom he does not name, to have fallen into great misfortunes under Caligula, and eventually to have committed suicide. Other details come from less respectable sources. His body, says the " Mors Pilati " , was thrown into the Tiber, but the waters were so disturbed by evil spirits that the body was taken to Vienne and sunk in the Rhône, where a monument, called Pilate's tomb, is still to be seen. As the same thing occurred there, it was again removed and sunk in the lake at Lausanne. Its final disposition was in a deep and lonely mountain tarn, which, according to later tradition, was on a mountain, still called Pilatus, close to Lucerne. The real origin of this name is, however, to be sought in the cap of cloud which often covers the mountain, and serves as a barometer to the inhabitants of Lucerne. The are many other legends about Pilate in the folklore of Germany, but none of them have the slightest authority. There are cross-references between the Bible and other texts. http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000281.htm#aa0d8e79 Getting back to Ponius Pilate. http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000472.htm#f174968a Pontius Pilate The fifth Roman procurator of Judea (ruled 26-36 AD), who issued the official order sentencing Jesus to death by crucifixion (Mt 27; Mk 15; Lk 23; Jn 18-19). The Jewish historian phus provides what little information is known about Pilate's life before A. D. 26, when Tiberius appointed him procurator of Judea. The sketchy data suggests that Pilate was probably an Italianborn Roman citizen whose family was wealthy enough for him to qualify for the middle class. Probably he held certain military posts before his appointment in Judea. He was married (Mt 27:19), bringing his wife, Procula, to live with him at Caesarea, the headquarters of the province. Pilate governed the areas of Judea, Samaria, and the area south as far as the Dead Sea to Gaza. As procurator he had absolute authority over the non-Roman citizens of the province. He was responsible to the Roman governor who lived in Syria to the north (Lk 2:2). Pilate never became popular with the Jews. He seemed to be insensitive to their religious convictions and stubborn in the pursuit of his policies. But when the Jews responded to his rule with enraged opposition, he often backed down, demonstrating his weakness. He greatly angered the Jews when he took funds from the Temple treasury to build an aqueduct to supply water to Jerusalem. Many Jews reacted violently to this act, and Pilate's soldiers killed many of them in this rebellion. In spite of this, Pilate continued in office for ten years, showing that Tiberius considered Pilate an effective administrator. Pilate's later history is also shrouded in mystery. phus tells of a bloody encounter with the Samaritans, who filed a complaint with Pilate's superior, Vitellius, the governor of Syria. Vitellius deposed Pilate and ordered him to stand before the emperor in Rome and answer for his conduct. Legends are confused as to how Pilate died. Eusebius reports that he was exiled to the city of Vienne on the Rhone in Gaul (France) where he eventually committed suicide. Pilate's Encounter with Jesus. Since the Jews could not execute a person without approval from the Roman authorities (Jn 18:31), the Jewish leaders brought Jesus to Pilate to pronounce the death sentence (Mk 14:64). Pilate seemed convinced that Jesus was not guilty of anything deserving death, and he sought to release Jesus (Mt. 27:24; Mk 15:9-11; Lk 23:14; Jn 18:38-40; 19:12). Neither did he want to antagonize the Jews and run the risk of damaging his own reputation and career. Thus, when they insisted on Jesus' crucifixion, Pilate turned Jesus over to be executed (Mt. 27:26; Mk 15:12-15; Lk 23:20-25; Jn 19:15-16). The Caesar's mentioned in the gospels are Augustus (Lk 2:1) and Tiberius (Lk 3:1; 20:22). Etc. As for my spiritual experiences, I will consider telling about them here. I have spoken of them in the Christian Aspie forum. TheChristianAspieForum/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 spiritualaspie/ > So - now - how and where do I find the Spirital Aspie forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 " About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day. " Antiquities, Book 18, 63-64. He also said that the High Priest Ananias had: " Convened the Sanhedrin (the highest Jewish religious court / governing body). He had brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, who was called , and some other men, whom he accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned. " Antiquities, Book 20, 200. Reference to Christianity by Emporer Constantine, First Emperor of Rome: http://www.request.org.uk/main/history/romans/constantine.htm In 312 CE Constantine was about to lead his army in a battle that would change the world. The soldiers of his enemy Maxentius faced him at the Milvian Bridge outside Rome. The winner would become the Roman Emperor. Constantine was a pagan who worshipped the sun, and he was worried about the coming battle. He says he started to pray to the " Supreme God " for help. There was a sign in the sky " above the sun " and with it the words " conquer by this " . That night in a dream he said he saw Jesus telling him to use the chi-rho sign " as a safeguard in all battles " . Constantine ordered it to be put on his soldier's shields - and won the battle. The symbol is made of the first two letters of 'Christ' in Greek - chi (X) and rho (P) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 >Do people that are satanists that don't worship satan cast 'magic' on other people that are satanists but don't worship satan when one of them makes them mad? > > In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mikecarrie01@... writes: > > This scares me, Lwaxy, because my stepmother uses magic to fight her > enemies, including my father's children (me included), and has a > spell cast over him to keep him under her control. How does one, > anyone, define an 'enemy'? I tried to get along with her and he is my > father so I have some right to him (as little as he himself concedes.) > My stepmother is evil, so she may be an exception in your definition, > but still--we are her enemies because we come between her and her > having my father all to herself. If a human is allowed magic, > couldn't it easily be misused? Your statement makes me very > frightened of you and I will be sure not to cross you. > > > > Very good points. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Like , I definitely have questions about some things in the Bible - including some things that seem (to me) difficult to view as " mysteries " and/or " Cliff's Notes " -style abridgments of what really happened. To see for yourself, take the ULTIMATE BIBLE FACTS QUIZ (below) ... unlike other exams you may have taken, this one gives you more than one chance to get things right. Of course, if you don't like long postings and/or quizzes and/or Bible stuff, just delete this posting now. ULTIMATE BIBLE FACTS QUIZ /1/ During Creation, where did the first birds come from? Genesis 1:20 says they came out of the water. Genesis 2:19 says they came out of the ground. /2/ At what age did Levites begin serving? Age 30, according to Numbers 4:30 Age 25, according to Numbers 8:24 /3/ Fill in the blank: was 's ___[number]th___ son. 's seventh son, says 1st Chronicles 2:15 's eighth son, says 1st 16:10-11 /4/ How did kill Goliath? With a sling and stone, in First 17:50 With a sword, in First 17:51 /5/ Who gave the bread in the shrine at Nob? Ahimelech, say 1st 21:1 and 6 and 1st 22:20. Abiathar the son of Ahimelech, says Mark 2:25-26 /6/ Who killed Saul? He committed suicide in 1st 31:4-5 An Amalekite killed him in 2nd 1:4-10 Philistines killed him in 2nd 21:12 God killed him in 1st Chronicles 10:14 /7/ Who induced to take a census of Israel? God, according to 2nd 24:1 Satan, according to 1st Chronicles 21:1 /8/ How many horsemen did capture in his battle with Hadadezer? Seven hundred, according to 2nd 8:4 Seven thousand, according to 1st Chronicles 18:4 /9/ How many Syrian charioteers did kill in that battle? Seven hundred, says 2nd 10:18 Seven thousand, says 1st Chronicles 19:18 /10/ Name the military specialty of the 40,000 other casualties in that battle. Horsemen, according to 2nd 10:18 Footmen, according to 1st Chronicles 19:18 /12/ To get land to build his altar, bought some property. What did he buy, whom did he buy it from, how much did he pay, and in what currency? 2nd 24:18 and 24-25 say bought from Araunah, and paid Araunah 50 shekels of silver for a threshing-floor and oxen 1st Chronicles 21:22 and 25-26 say bought from Ornan, and paid Ornan 600 shekels of gold for just the floor alone /13/ 's temple had two pillars, named Jachin and Boaz. Name the height of the two pillars. Eighteen cubits, says 1st Kings 7:15,21 Thirty-five cubits, says 2nd Chronicle 3:15,17 /14/ Where did King Josiah die? At Megiddo, in 2nd Kings 23:29-30 At Jerusalem, in 2nd Chronicles 35:23-24 /15/ At what age did King Jehoiachin begin to reign? At age eight, in 2nd Chronicles 36:9 At age eighteen, in 2nd Kings 24:8 /16/ How many descendants of Arah returned from exile? Seven hundred seventy-five, says Ezra 2:5 Six hundred fifty-two, says Nehemiah 7:10 /17/ From which son and grandson of did Jesus' paternal line descend? From 's son and grandson Roboam, says 1:1-7 From 's son and grandson Mattatha, says Luke 3:23 and 31 /18/ Name the father of the ph who married . , according to 1:16 Heli, according to Luke 3:23 (Some people explain this one by saying that the list in Luke actually shows 's genealogy, but unfortunately for this explanation Luke 3:23 clearly says " son of Heli, " not " son-in-law of Heli " . The word for " son " that appears in that verse appears throughout this entire list of fathers and sons.) /19/ According to Jesus' instructions to his disciples, could they have shoes and staves? Yes, says Mark 6:8-9 No, says 10:10 /20/ Did the centurion himself come to Jesus? Yes, he came himself, says 8:5-6 No, he sent others, says Luke 7:3,6 /21/ When did Jesus curse the fig tree? After going to the temple, says 21:12 Before going to the temple, says Mark 11:13-15 /22/ Right before Jesus got arrested, who revealed him, and what did the crowd do then? Judas revealed Jesus and then the crowd took him, say 26:48-50 and Mark 14:43-46 Jesus revealed himself, and then the crowd fell back, says 18:3-6 (Jesus revealed himself, and the crowd then fell back.) 18:3-6 /23/ What did Jesus say before Pontius Pilate? Nothing, according to 27:13-14 A lot, according to 18:33-37, 19:11 /24/ People at the crucifixion offered Jesus a drink make of wine mixed with ___[what?]____ With myrrh, according to Mark 15:23 With gall, according to 27:34 /25/ How many crucified thieves reviled Jesus? Both of them, says 27:44 Only one, says Luke 23:39-43 /26/ What did Judas do with the money that the Temple gave him? He used it to buy himself a field, says Acts 1:18 He gave it back to the Temple and the priests used it to buy themselves a field, says Mathew 27:3-7 /27/ How did Judas die? He hanged himself in 27:5 He fell and burst open in Acts 1:18 Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 > > I have had to do this quite a lot in my life - e.g., with English > teachers who cited " Bible " quotes that actually came from Shakespeare, > or _vice_versa_. > >Like: 'cleanliness is next to godliness'. Everyone thinks that's in the bible. > > Yours for better letters, > Kate Gladstone > Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest > handwritingrepair@... > http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair > 325 South Manning Boulevard > Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA > telephone 518/482-6763 > AND REMEMBER ... > you can order books through my site! > (Amazon.com link - > I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Re: On 3/21/06, mikecarrie01 <mikecarrie01@...> wrote: > > > > > I have had to do this quite a lot in my life - e.g., with > English > > teachers who cited " Bible " quotes that actually came from > Shakespeare, > > or _vice_versa_. > > > >Like: 'cleanliness is next to godliness'. Everyone thinks that's in > the bible. Yes - I've had two run-ins with that one: once with an English-teacher (and part-time deaconess in her church) who claimed it came from the Bible (and who took 15 points off my classroom grade when I asked her after class " What chapter and verse, ma'am, because I've searched a concordance and can't find it anywhere?), and once with another English-teacher (teaching English literature) in a different school, who claimed it came from Shakespeare (it doesn't come from there, either - when, early in the term, I asked " Where in Shakespeare, please? " he gave me the " option " of either immediately failing his course or doing three extra full-length assignments during the next month: I took the latter option because, given a choice, I will not accept failure as a " reward " for honest and needed questions ... but, as he admitted, when he received my three papers he arbitrarily subtracted 10 points from each paper before even reading the paper " as a corrective for your insubordination. If you had not been insubordinate, you would not have been given the opportunity to have these papers assigned to you, and therefore your grade on each paper needs to reflect that. " ) Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Re: > I don't feel like going through all of these and pointing out the > falsities in the contradictions. I'm too lazy. Your prerogative, Tom, and I won't press you or anyone else to do so - despite my curiosity as to where you found falsities in (e.g.) the Bible's four answers to " who killed Saul? " Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest handwritingrepair@... http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 AND REMEMBER ... you can order books through my site! (Amazon.com link - I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Re: > I don't feel like going through all of these and pointing out the > falsities in the contradictions. I'm too lazy. Kate said: " Your prerogative, Tom, and I won't press you or anyone else to do so - despite my curiosity as to where you found falsities in (e.g.) the Bible's four answers to " who killed Saul? " Kate...the test is designed by ignorant people who have no knowledge of the Bible and no ability to actually read and understand the passages. Their interest is in torpedoing its honesty and all that it stands for. You are clearly able to come to the same conclusion if you simply READ THE PASSAGES and LOOK AT WHAT THEY SAY. I have fleshed everything out for you below. /6/ Who killed Saul? He committed suicide in 1st 31:4-5 An Amalekite killed him in 2nd 1:4-10 Philistines killed him in 2nd 21:12 God killed him in 1st Chronicles 10:14 1Sa 31:4 Saul groaned to his armor bearer, " Take your sword and kill me before these pagan Philistines run me through and humiliate me. " But his armor bearer was afraid and would not do it. So Saul took his own sword and fell on it. 1Sa 31:5 When his armor bearer realized that Saul was dead, he fell on his own sword and died beside the king. <snip> 2Sa 1:4 " What happened? " demanded. " Tell me how the battle went. " The man replied, " Our entire army fled. Many men are dead and wounded on the battlefield, and Saul and his son have been killed. " 2Sa 1:5 " How do you know that Saul and are dead? " demanded. 2Sa 1:6 The young man answered, " I happened to be on Mount Gilboa. I saw Saul there leaning on his spear with the enemy chariots closing in on him. 2Sa 1:7 When he turned and saw me, he cried out for me to come to him. `How can I help?' I asked him. 2Sa 1:8 And he said to me, `Who are you?' I replied, `I am an Amalekite.' 2Sa 1:9 Then he begged me, `Come over here and put me out of my misery, for I am in terrible pain and want to die.' 2Sa 1:10 " So I killed him, " the Amalekite told , " for I knew he couldn't live. Then I took his crown and one of his bracelets so I could bring them to you, my lord. " 1 31:4 gives what actually happened while 2 1:8-10 only gives what the Amalekite said happened. Most probably, the Amalekite took the opportunity to benefit from the King's death, gathered his crown and bracelet and then brought them to . Unfortunately for the Amalekite, said in 2 1:13-16, " And said to the young man who told him, " Where are you from? " And he answered, " I am the son of an alien, an Amalekite. " 14Then said to him, " How is it you were not afraid to stretch out your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed? " 15And called one of the young men and said, " Go, cut him down. " So he struck him and he died. 16And said to him, " Your blood is on your head, for your mouth has testified against you, saying, `I have killed the Lord's anointed.' " The Amalekite probably thought he'd benefit from bringing the King's possessions to , but his plan backfired. All it says in the following passage is that Saul died in a battle with the Philistines, it doesn't say how. 2Sa 21:12 he went to the people of Jabesh-gilead and asked for the bones of Saul and his son . (When Saul and had died in a battle with the Philistines, it was the people of Jabesh-gilead who had retrieved their bodies from the public square of the Philistine city of Beth-shan.) The final passage quoted in your test is explained when taken in context: 1Ch 10:3 The fighting grew very fierce around Saul, and the Philistine archers caught up with him and wounded him severely. 1Ch 10:4 Saul groaned to his armor bearer, " Take your sword and run me through before these pagan Philistines come and humiliate me. " But his armor bearer was afraid and would not do it. So Saul took his own sword and fell on it. 1Ch 10:5 When his armor bearer realized that Saul was dead, he fell on his own sword and died. 1Ch 10:6 So Saul and his three sons died there together, bringing his dynasty to an end. 1Ch 10:7 When the Israelites in the Jezreel Valley saw that their army had been routed and that Saul and his sons were dead, they abandoned their towns and fled. So the Philistines moved in and occupied their towns. 1Ch 10:8 The next day when the Philistines went out to strip the dead, they found the bodies of Saul and his sons on Mount Gilboa. 1Ch 10:9 So they stripped off Saul's armor and cut off his head. Then they proclaimed the news of Saul's death before their idols and to the people throughout the land of Philistia. 1Ch 10:10 They placed his armor in the temple of their gods, and they fastened his head to the wall in the temple of Dagon. 1Ch 10:11 But when the people of Jabesh-gilead heard what the Philistines had done to Saul, 1Ch 10:12 their warriors went out and brought the bodies of Saul and his three sons back to Jabesh. Then they buried their remains beneath the oak tree at Jabesh, and they fasted for seven days. 1Ch 10:13 So Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord. He failed to obey the Lord's command, and he even consulted a medium 1Ch 10:14 instead of asking the Lord for guidance. So the Lord killed him and turned his kingdom over to son of . The Lord killed Saul by putting himself in a position whereby he felt he had no recouse but to fall on his sword. He did this as punishment for Saul, ergo the Lord killed him. Tom Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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