Re: Wood mystery!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/10/2006 8:32:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

Why is my wooden door growing? Or is it the water-based paint that has shrunk? I painted it in the summer and now there is paint missing around the door 'mirrors' (don't know the correct word for those sunken bits on old style doors).And why are the wooden planks that the partition wall is built of shrinking? I filled in the cracks between them with latex in the summer and now there are new cracks between some of the planks, several millimeters wide.I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-(Can someone please explain this mystery? Rainbow perhaps?Inger

It sound like the wood is drying out.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/10/2006 9:03:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rainbow@... writes:

You'll need masonry.

Masonry has it own set of problems though. If it is built on shrink/swell soil or other poor ground, it will develop cracks in time, and possibly worse foundation problems. My house was built in the 1940's or there about on shrink/swell soil and it developed bad cracks in the walls. It cost me rather a lot to have the foundation stabilized. A lot of the other houses around here have trouble too, and a lot of them are worse off than I was.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/10/2006 9:03:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rainbow@... writes:

You'll need masonry.

Masonry has it own set of problems though. If it is built on shrink/swell soil or other poor ground, it will develop cracks in time, and possibly worse foundation problems. My house was built in the 1940's or there about on shrink/swell soil and it developed bad cracks in the walls. It cost me rather a lot to have the foundation stabilized. A lot of the other houses around here have trouble too, and a lot of them are worse off than I was.

[Guest guest]

> Inger: "Can someone please explain this mystery? Rainbow perhaps?"Wood is a living substance. Wood expands as temperature increases, and shrinks as temperature decreases.Wood expands as humidity increases, and shrinks as humidity decreases.Always...... , and more so across the broad than in length. ie. wider/narrower but not longer/shorterNewly cut wood, that which is used for building, is called 'green'. It has much of the moisture in that was in the living tree. Green wood is easy to work/form: ie. cut, shape, drill, sand. etc.It will always shrink as it dries out and loses that original moisture.Treen, cabinets, and furniture and made from dry (kiln dried) stock that is more difficult to work, but also does not shrink.The doors...... I'm not sure what you mean, especially 'mirrors'.The partition wall boards are shrinking because the green lumber is drying out indoors and therefore shrinking.>Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("You'll need masonry.  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

:

> It sound like the wood is drying out.

Thanks.

But can it both swell and shrink from drying? Is this normal during the winter (when the air is naturally dry if it's this cold) or do I have it too dry in my home? I am getting dry skin too, never had that before.

I have a dehydrator but only turn it on when I dry clothes so as to not get steam all over the kitchen. Perhaps I should allow some of the steam next time and not use the dehydrator at all?

Inger

[Guest guest]

> Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("I shrink that would be just swell!  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

LOL!

Re: Wood mystery!

> Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("

I shrink that would be just swell!

Rainbow

[Guest guest]

Ack, I had posted a very detailed reply to this, but had been too

trusting of the webware for my own good, and it got eaten when

I had to provide my password when I hit the Send button....

I think I'll keep the reply *much* shorter and less detailed this

time... unless you're really wanting an extensive explanation as to

how things are built for this sort of reason.

1. All materials have a rate that they expand/contract at based on

temperature, and not all materials expand/contract at the same rate.

2. Many materials are also affected by their water content for their

expansion/contraction coefficient: wood is a prime material subject

to this

3. Properly designed and constructed buildings, furniture,

structures such as bridges and boats/ships etc. are designed to allow

this expansion/contraction to happen without causing structural

problems (such as doors that are too tight or too loose in the

doorframe)

Did you properly seal the wood of the doorframe and the door from

moisture with an oil-based sealer (or something that seals it: it

just needs to keep the moisture content from changing) before

painting it with the water-based paint? If not, then it is very

subject to humidity and water causing it to change significantly

dimensionally.

There is an ideal temperature and humidity at which you should do

anything with wood and many other materials to get the best

dimensional fit, and (you won't like to hear this ) that depends

on the materials used and the conditions. If it is too cold and dry

when you fit a door into a doorframe, and you make it a tight fit,

then when it gets warmer and/or more humid (if it isn't properly

sealed) it will end up binding badly. By contrast, if you fit a door

when it is very hot and humid, it may shrink enough to leave huge

gaps, and may not latch properly when it gets cold and dry. If you

happen to live in a climate that never varies much in humidity and

temperature (perhaps where the standard greeting is " Aloha! " ) then

you may be able to be less exact about these sorts of worries.

Barring those " ideal " conditions, you need to build structures that

have acceptable functioning at both ends of the temperature/humidity

extremes they will encounter, where (in the case of doors) the seal

will be noticeably tighter for the warm and humid condition than when

it is cold and dry; weather-stripping does wonders for allowing this

natural thing to happen without a problem for outside doors, and

there are construction techniques beyond properly sealing a wood door

and the doorframe that allow properly fitting doors and windows.

>

> Why is my wooden door growing? Or is it the water-based paint that

has

> shrunk? I painted it in the summer and now there is paint missing

around the

> door 'mirrors' (don't know the correct word for those sunken bits

on old

> style doors).

>

> And why are the wooden planks that the partition wall is built of

shrinking?

> I filled in the cracks between them with latex in the summer and

now there

> are new cracks between some of the planks, several millimeters wide.

>

> I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-(

>

> Can someone please explain this mystery? Rainbow perhaps?

>

> Inger

>

[Guest guest]

> Inger: ".....do I have it too dry in my home?"Most likely.That is a very common condition inside homes in cold climates in winter.Try adding some living house plants. Watering them regularly will add moisture in a slow, steady manner, actually self regulating the humidity by giving off less moisture as your humidity rises and giving off more moisture as your rooms dry.  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

Rainbow,

thank you so much for this detailed explanation! It really cleared some mysteries up here.

> Wood is a living substance.

Even after it's cut down??? :-o

> Wood expands as temperature increases, and shrinks as temperature decreases.

Aha! It's very warm in those two rooms that are partitioned by the door that seems to have grown.

> Wood expands as humidity increases, and shrinks as humidity decreases.

OK.

> Always...... , and more so across the broad than in length. ie. wider/narrower but not longer/shorter.

Aha! That's precisely what these planks are doing! Getting thinner but not shorter - luckily!

> Newly cut wood, that which is used for building, is called 'green'. It has much of the moisture in that was in the living tree. Green wood is easy to work/form: ie. cut, shape, drill, sand. etc.

Right. But not to burn.

> It will always shrink as it dries out and loses that original moisture.

That makes sense!

> Treen, cabinets, and furniture and made from dry (kiln dried) stock that is more difficult to work, but also does not shrink.

I see.

> e doors...... I'm not sure what you mean, especially 'mirrors'.

You know... a door design from the 19th century will be have say 2 big sunken squares in it with a small sunken rectangle inbetween. We call them mirrors in Swedish even though there is nothing reflective there, just different levels of wood. *frustrated to not be able to attach my thought form to this msg*

> The partition wall boards are shrinking because the green lumber is drying out indoors and therefore shrinking.

But should that not have dried already in the door and plank factory? The door is new-ish but the walls must have been here for several years. They already had cracks between them when I moved in but I thought that was by design. Now I realise they had probably shrunk quite a bit already; thus the cracks - with the original paint oddly stretched over the cracks in places. How much more can they shrink?? :-o

>>Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("

> You'll need masonry.

A mason? What wood he do? Cover my cracks? ;-)

Inger

[Guest guest]

Strict:

> Properly designed and constructed buildings, furniture,

structures such as bridges and boats/ships etc. are designed to allow

this expansion/contraction to happen without causing structural

problems (such as doors that are too tight or too loose in the

doorframe).

I see. Well that's another funny thing. I put the door in the door frame

that the previous owner had already built. It almost fit, missing a few

millimeters so I coudn't close it. Very annoying. When I don't know what to

do, I do nothing at all. Then, a few weeks later, I tried to close the door

again to see how much I would have to file off, and guess what? It fit!

Guess if I was puzzled!

> Did you properly seal the wood of the doorframe and the door from

moisture with an oil-based sealer (or something that seals it: it

just needs to keep the moisture content from changing) before

painting it with the water-based paint?

Eh... nope.

> If not, then it is very subject to humidity and water causing it to

> change significantly dimensionally.

!

> There is an ideal temperature and humidity at which you should

do anything with wood and many other materials to get the best

dimensional fit, and (you won't like to hear this )

:-D

> ...that depends on the materials used and the conditions.

If it is too cold and dry

when you fit a door into a doorframe, and you make it a tight fit,

then when it gets warmer and/or more humid (if it isn't properly

sealed) it will end up binding badly. By contrast, if you fit a door

when it is very hot and humid, it may shrink enough to leave huge

gaps, and may not latch properly when it gets cold and dry.

I painted it and fitted it when it was very hot. It fits nicely now. I hope

it's not going to swell again so I can't close it! :-(

If you happen to live in a climate that never varies much in humidity and

temperature (perhaps where the standard greeting is " Aloha! " )

LOL!!!

> ..then you may be able to be less exact about these sorts of worries.

Barring those " ideal " conditions, you need to build structures that

have acceptable functioning at both ends of the temperature/humidity

extremes they will encounter, where (in the case of doors) the seal

will be noticeably tighter for the warm and humid condition than when

it is cold and dry; weather-stripping does wonders for allowing this

natural thing to happen without a problem for outside doors, and

there are construction techniques beyond properly sealing a wood door

and the doorframe that allow properly fitting doors and windows.

I see. I think I'll just keep my fingers crossed and see what happens in the

summer...

Thanks for the great explanations. Mystery is clearing up more and more

here. :-)

Inger

[Guest guest]

I see. Plants would be nice but I'm not too keen on anything that needs such regular looking after. Would succulents do the same job?

Inger

Re: Re: Wood mystery!

> Inger: ".....do I have it too dry in my home?"

Most likely.

That is a very common condition inside homes in cold climates in winter.

Try adding some living house plants. Watering them regularly will add moisture in a slow, steady manner, actually self regulating the humidity by giving off less moisture as your humidity rises and giving off more moisture as your rooms dry.

Rainbow

[Guest guest]

> Wood is a living substance.  Even after it's cut down??? :-oOh, yes. That is what I meant. Living in the sense that it breathes, moves, and changes shape. Luckily it doesn't crap or reproduce!>You know... a door design from the 19th century will be have say 2 big sunken squares in it with a small sunken rectangle inbetween. We call them mirrors in Swedish even though there is nothing reflective there, just different levels of wood. *frustrated to not be able to attach my thought form to this msg*I don't. Perhaps 'mirrors' are what we call 'panels', a thinner, lighter weight insert within the frame and braces that form the outer parts of a door, like the triangles set into a door that has X shaped diagonals within a box shaped, rectangular frame. Four triangles....These panels are always constructed in such a way that they almost float within the frame. Although they may not move when touched, they are set loosely enough to allow for expansion and contraction within the frame, accordingly with temperature and humidity fluctuations.>>Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("> You'll need masonry.>A mason? What wood he do? Cover my cracks? ;-)Like the three little pigs, you'll need a masonry (brick, block, concrete, or stone) structure to not noticeably shrink or swell.   Rainbow

[Guest guest]

> Inger: "Would succulents do the same job?"Yes, but you'll need more of them because they transpire more slowly.  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

> Inger: "Would succulents do the same job?"Yes, but you'll need more of them because they transpire more slowly.  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

Rainbow:

>>> Wood is a living substance.

>

Inger:

>>Even after it's cut down??? :-o

>

Rainbow:

> Oh, yes. That is what I meant. Living in the sense that it breathes, moves, and changes shape. Luckily it doesn't crap or reproduce!

LOL! I agree!!

>>You know... a door design from the 19th century will be have say 2 big sunken squares in it with a small sunken rectangle inbetween. We call them mirrors in Swedish even though there is nothing reflective there, just different levels of wood. *frustrated to not be able to attach my thought form to this msg*

>

> I don't. Perhaps 'mirrors' are what we call 'panels', a thinner, lighter weight insert within the frame and braces that form the outer parts of a door, like the triangles set into a door that has X shaped diagonals within a box shaped, rectangular frame. Four triangles....

>

> These panels are always constructed in such a way that they almost float within the frame. Although they may not move when touched, they are set loosely enough to allow for expansion and contraction within the frame, accordingly with temperature and humidity fluctuations.

Found a picture now: http://www.kilsgaard.se/massiva-spegeldorr-adeltra.jpg

The older type looked like this: http://www.greenhouse.se/vbv/spegeldorrar.jpg

Are those 'indentations' the panels you're thinking of? *wishing I had the correct door vocabulary in English*

>>>>Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("

>>> You'll need masonry.

>>A mason? What wood he do? Cover my cracks? ;-)

>

> Like the three little pigs, you'll need a masonry (brick, block, concrete, or stone) structure to not noticeably shrink or swell.

Oh right! So the wolf can't huff & puff! :-)

But I kinda like wood. Guess I just have to put up with it having a life of its own. As you said, at least it doesn't crap or reproduce. ;-)

Inger

[Guest guest]

Rainbow:

>>> Wood is a living substance.

>

Inger:

>>Even after it's cut down??? :-o

>

Rainbow:

> Oh, yes. That is what I meant. Living in the sense that it breathes, moves, and changes shape. Luckily it doesn't crap or reproduce!

LOL! I agree!!

>>You know... a door design from the 19th century will be have say 2 big sunken squares in it with a small sunken rectangle inbetween. We call them mirrors in Swedish even though there is nothing reflective there, just different levels of wood. *frustrated to not be able to attach my thought form to this msg*

>

> I don't. Perhaps 'mirrors' are what we call 'panels', a thinner, lighter weight insert within the frame and braces that form the outer parts of a door, like the triangles set into a door that has X shaped diagonals within a box shaped, rectangular frame. Four triangles....

>

> These panels are always constructed in such a way that they almost float within the frame. Although they may not move when touched, they are set loosely enough to allow for expansion and contraction within the frame, accordingly with temperature and humidity fluctuations.

Found a picture now: http://www.kilsgaard.se/massiva-spegeldorr-adeltra.jpg

The older type looked like this: http://www.greenhouse.se/vbv/spegeldorrar.jpg

Are those 'indentations' the panels you're thinking of? *wishing I had the correct door vocabulary in English*

>>>>Inger: "I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or swell. :-("

>>> You'll need masonry.

>>A mason? What wood he do? Cover my cracks? ;-)

>

> Like the three little pigs, you'll need a masonry (brick, block, concrete, or stone) structure to not noticeably shrink or swell.

Oh right! So the wolf can't huff & puff! :-)

But I kinda like wood. Guess I just have to put up with it having a life of its own. As you said, at least it doesn't crap or reproduce. ;-)

Inger

[Guest guest]

Then I'll consider it. Thanks for the tip.

Inger

Re: Re: Wood mystery!

> Inger: "Would succulents do the same job?"

Yes, but you'll need more of them because they transpire more slowly.

Rainbow

[Guest guest]

Then I'll consider it. Thanks for the tip.

Inger

Re: Re: Wood mystery!

> Inger: "Would succulents do the same job?"

Yes, but you'll need more of them because they transpire more slowly.

Rainbow

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/11/2006 8:27:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, julie.stevenson16@... writes:

Both my doors that lead outside are wood and in winter they stick - have possibly grown? are harder to open and close - do not line up as well as they do in summer. I have always just considered this natural and the way things are.

That could be a problem of the wooden doors changing or it could be the foundation shifting with the seasons. Several doors inside my house are like that. During the summer the doors will catch properly, but in the winter the latches are slightly off and don't catch. The exterior doors aren't a problem, though you can see where they are slightly off square because of how the house has settled.

[Guest guest]

Both my doors that lead outside are wood and in winter they stick -

have possibly grown? are harder to open and close - do not line up

as well as they do in summer. I have always just considered this

natural and the way things are.

Inger as for the inlaid panels in the door - can you see through them

sort of - do they let light in? I am wondering if they are glass

panels in the door you are referring to?

>

> > Inger: " .....do I have it too dry in my home? "

>

> Most likely.

>

> That is a very common condition inside homes in cold climates in

winter.

>

> Try adding some living house plants. Watering them regularly will

add

> moisture in a slow, steady manner, actually self regulating the

> humidity by giving off less moisture as your humidity rises and

> giving off more moisture as your rooms dry.

>

> Rainbow

>

[Guest guest]

" Luckily it doesn't crap or reproduce! "

Lol :-)

>

> > Wood is a living substance.

>

> Even after it's cut down??? :-o

>

> Oh, yes. That is what I meant. Living in the sense that it

breathes,

> moves, and changes shape. Luckily it doesn't crap or reproduce!

>

> >You know... a door design from the 19th century will be have say

2

> big sunken squares in it with a small sunken rectangle inbetween.

We

> call them mirrors in Swedish even though there is nothing

reflective

> there, just different levels of wood. *frustrated to not be able

to

> attach my thought form to this msg*

>

> I don't. Perhaps 'mirrors' are what we call 'panels', a thinner,

> lighter weight insert within the frame and braces that form the

outer

> parts of a door, like the triangles set into a door that has X

shaped

> diagonals within a box shaped, rectangular frame. Four triangles....

>

> These panels are always constructed in such a way that they almost

> float within the frame. Although they may not move when touched,

they

> are set loosely enough to allow for expansion and contraction

within

> the frame, accordingly with temperature and humidity fluctuations.

>

> >>Inger: " I'd like a house that sits still and doesn't shrink or

> swell. :-( "

> > You'll need masonry.

> >A mason? What wood he do? Cover my cracks? ;-)

>

> Like the three little pigs, you'll need a masonry (brick, block,

> concrete, or stone) structure to not noticeably shrink or swell.

>

> Rainbow

>

[Guest guest]

> Inger: "Found a picture now: http://www.kilsgaard.se/massiva-spegeldorr-adeltra.jpgThe older type looked like this: http://www.greenhouse.se/vbv/spegeldorrar.jpg > "Are those 'indentations' the panels you're thinking of? *wishing I had the correct door vocabulary in English*Yes, exactly! They are made/fit into the frame of the door in such a manner as to be able to expand/contract with your indoor weather. > "But I kinda like wood. Guess I just have to put up with it having a life of its own."We use wood for many practical reasons: It grows all around us so is easy to locate.It reproduces itself relatively quickly, think forests.It is relatively easy to cut, shape, drill, even with hand tools.It is relatively stable, subject as we have just learned changes with varying temperature and humidity.It is relatively light weight.It is a relatively good insulator.It is both durable and strong.and..... best of all, feels good (is warm to the touch), smells good, and is a pleasure to look at.Wooden you know!  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

> Inger: "But should that not have dried already in the door and plank factory?"Yes, but to their specifications and not necessarily to as dry as your home is.For instance, in my work, I specify kiln dried lumber. It is dried to the lowest possible moisture content by literally cooking it dry.The lumber for your doors may only have been air dried. (Now Kate, don't ask me for more sources/details. I'm an amateur everything here. I have lots of experience, but very informal knowledge.)My experience/craft is called "treen", the manufacture (hand making) of small useful objects of wood. Buttons, for example, which I made my first ten years. I am not a cabinet maker, or carpenter. Doors would fall somewhere between those two professions, I believe.  Rainbow

[Guest guest]

> : "Both my doors that lead outside are wood and in winter they stick - have possibly grown? are harder to open and close - do not line up as well as they do in summer. I have always just considered this natural and the way things are."You are absolutely correct!Unfortunately, you live in an uninhabitable land way too far north. I hear that in England it is often cold, cloudy, and even damp!Achooooo! Excuse me!With increasing humidity this time of year your outside doors have grown, more in width than length. I would hazard to guess that they are sticking along the verticals. I predict that with the arrival of spring, the birds and flowers, that soon all will be well again with your entrance way.  Rainbow