Re: Identifying the Female Child Sex Offender

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/14/2005 11:28:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

I don't consider a 23-year old to be an 'adult', nor do I consider a 14-year old to be a 'child'. Child is what one is before puberty, and adult is when one has matured enough to be a responsible person. Few reach that maturity before 25 or 30, some a lot later.

The Chinese for a very long time considered a person "adult" when they reached 35.

[Guest guest]

On 14 Nov 2005 environmental1st2003 wrote:

> By Hugh Farley, M.S.

> Consultant to the VIRTUS Programs

> ...

> When a female offender, acting alone, is charged with a sex

> offense, the public and even the media tends to be more

> sympathetic than they are to their male counterparts. The

> incident is often reported as being a eduction or that the

> offender was having an affair with the teenage victim.

There's more to it than just " people are more sympathetic.

First, the nature of the " victim " is different. One would be

hard-pressed t find emotional harm to a teenaged boy to having

been deduced by an older woman. This will not " scar him for

life " or make meaningful loving relationships difficult.

(An exception would be insest, but the news story does not

suggest that.

Second, there are cultures in which a teenager is taken to a

prostitute to introduce him to sex. I don't think I'd have

wanted that, but that's not the issue. It's just that it is

much more culturally acceptable for underage boys to be

introduced to sex with older women. (There are also cultures

where teenagers are expected to have sex with each other, but

that obviates the under-age - mature age issue.)

The event does not rais moral approbrium. To the contrary, it's

sort of a fantasy that " If I knew what I know today, I could

have befriended ___ when I was a teen. "

So we're left with two issues:

1. Should boys be treated differently from girls even though

that contradicts the concept of sexual equality?

2. Is there a harm to society or more on-point to the youth

(other than unequal treatment of boys and girls) when an older

woman has sex with him?

- s

[Guest guest]

Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced into sexuality

is with an older female who will teach him what to do.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Since I'm not male, I have no way of

knowing how I'd feel about that.

I do think there should be equality between sexes, though.

Here in Sweden the Age of Consent is 15. That makes the whole issue a lot

less hysterical.

I don't consider a 23-year old to be an 'adult', nor do I consider a 14-year

old to be a 'child'. Child is what one is before puberty, and adult is when

one has matured enough to be a responsible person. Few reach that maturity

before 25 or 30, some a lot later.

Though when one is 15, a person of 30 is practically a senior citizen. :-)

Inger

Re: Identifying the Female Child Sex Offender

On 14 Nov 2005 environmental1st2003 wrote:

> By Hugh Farley, M.S.

> Consultant to the VIRTUS Programs

> ...

> When a female offender, acting alone, is charged with a sex

> offense, the public and even the media tends to be more

> sympathetic than they are to their male counterparts. The

> incident is often reported as being a eduction or that the

> offender was having an affair with the teenage victim.

There's more to it than just " people are more sympathetic.

First, the nature of the " victim " is different. One would be

hard-pressed t find emotional harm to a teenaged boy to having

been deduced by an older woman. This will not " scar him for

life " or make meaningful loving relationships difficult.

(An exception would be insest, but the news story does not

suggest that.

Second, there are cultures in which a teenager is taken to a

prostitute to introduce him to sex. I don't think I'd have

wanted that, but that's not the issue. It's just that it is

much more culturally acceptable for underage boys to be

introduced to sex with older women. (There are also cultures

where teenagers are expected to have sex with each other, but

that obviates the under-age - mature age issue.)

The event does not rais moral approbrium. To the contrary, it's

sort of a fantasy that " If I knew what I know today, I could

have befriended ___ when I was a teen. "

So we're left with two issues:

1. Should boys be treated differently from girls even though

that contradicts the concept of sexual equality?

2. Is there a harm to society or more on-point to the youth

(other than unequal treatment of boys and girls) when an older

woman has sex with him?

- s

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the

folder marked " Other FAM Sites. "

[Guest guest]

How very wise of them.

Inger

Re: Re: Identifying the Female Child Sex Offender

In a message dated 11/14/2005 11:28:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

I don't consider a 23-year old to be an 'adult', nor do I consider a 14-year old to be a 'child'. Child is what one is before puberty, and adult is when one has matured enough to be a responsible person. Few reach that maturity before 25 or 30, some a lot later.

The Chinese for a very long time considered a person "adult" when they reached 35.

[Guest guest]

I think so, too. For the ancient Israelites, it was 30.

>

> How very wise of them.

>

> Inger

>

>

> Re: Re: Identifying the Female Child

Sex Offender

>

>

> In a message dated 11/14/2005 11:28:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

inglori@s... writes:

> I don't consider a 23-year old to be an 'adult', nor do I

consider a 14-year

> old to be a 'child'. Child is what one is before puberty, and

adult is when

> one has matured enough to be a responsible person. Few reach that

maturity

> before 25 or 30, some a lot later.

>

> The Chinese for a very long time considered a person " adult " when

they reached 35.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I see saying that a man having sex with a minor girl is a crime but a woman having sex with a minor is not as rather sexist. Just because a woman offers sex doesn't mean a man or boy is going to be interested. To assume otherwise is to buy into a sexist stereotype.

The opposite also applies. To assume that sexual encounters between an older man and a girl is automatically abuse is also sexist not only against men but girls as well. You can't on one hand say that boys can't be sexually abused by women and then turn around and say that girls can't be but abused by men. It doesn't fly. Who's to say the girls wouldn't enjoy it every bit as much as the boys are supposed to? Since pleasure is to be the determining factor here, then a man and a girl is no worse than a woman and a boy.

In my experience 12 is too young to make serious decisions. A lot of people can't even make sound decisions at 18, 21 or older. This is why credit card companies love college kids. They know the kids have no idea about money so they max out the cards and have to pay lots of interest. It is why cell phone companies want kids to have phones. The kids have no concept of money or responsibility so they use it and rack up huge bills for their parent's and then blame the parents when they take the phone away.

But let's look at this another way. If on the one hand one says kids of 12 should be allowed to have sex and make other adult decisions, then kids of 12 who commit a crime should be charged, prosecuted and jailed as adults and with adults. You can't have one side without the other.

[Guest guest]

On 15 Nov 2005 Inger Lorelei wrote:

> Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced

> into sexuality is with an older female who will teach him what to

> do.

> I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Since I'm not male, I have no

> way of knowing how I'd feel about that.

We get an idea from the comments about it being a fantasy come

true. It's abuse only because the law says it's abuse; not

because of the harm it can cause.

> I do think there should be equality between sexes, though.

Then let's assume we prosecute men for statutory rape

(consentual sex with an underage partner). Then we should make

the crime sex-neutral. Now if we catch a woman having sex with

an underage partner must we apply the same serious criminal

charges against her (criminally prosecute her)? What if the

only reason we prosecute her is to maintain equality?

My response would be:

1. I'd presume that a woman having sex with an underage partner

(in most circumstances) is not the same as a man doing so.

(Actually, I think women should be encouraged to do so as

beneficial to society.)

2. I hold equality to be important as a societal goal. There

should also be reasonable accomodations.

3. There are exceptions to equality, but the exceptions should

be limited to places where reasonable accomodation is not

available.

4. In the case of the burden of equality being exceptionally

high, such as prosecuting women having sex with teenage boys, I

would make an exception to the goal of equality.

> Here in Sweden the Age of Consent is 15. That makes the whole

> issue a lot less hysterical.

Most of the statutory rape laws in the US include an age

difference qualifier, such as " sex with a person under 18,

unless the age difference is less than 3 years. "

- s

[Guest guest]

> On 15 Nov 2005 Inger Lorelei wrote:

>

>> Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced

>> into sexuality is with an older female who will teach him what to

>> do.

Is she a dominatrix? ;-)

>> I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Since I'm not male, I have no

>> way of knowing how I'd feel about that.

I think the same as a girl would about being introduced by an

older man.

> We get an idea from the comments about it being a fantasy come

> true. It's abuse only because the law says it's abuse; not

> because of the harm it can cause.

Yes, exactly. These laws have an agenda, and the agenda is simple.

It's purpose is to serve men. Males don't want girls to have sex before

an age when most males think they are ready for sex. That's also

why older women having sex with young boys is legal (and possibly

even good). It doesn't affect mens possibilites to " be first " with girls

and being first with a boy isn't a big deal.

>> I do think there should be equality between sexes, though.

>

> Then let's assume we prosecute men for statutory rape

> (consentual sex with an underage partner). Then we should make

> the crime sex-neutral. Now if we catch a woman having sex with

> an underage partner must we apply the same serious criminal

> charges against her (criminally prosecute her)? What if the

> only reason we prosecute her is to maintain equality?

>

> My response would be:

>

> 1. I'd presume that a woman having sex with an underage partner

> (in most circumstances) is not the same as a man doing so.

> (Actually, I think women should be encouraged to do so as

> beneficial to society.)

Why? I fail to see the logic. What is so wrong with girls having early

sex? Is it society that should condem this when it is consential? Isn't

this a way of saying that girls don't have the ability to consent to sex

before the age of 15? They obviously seems to have an ability to consent

to many other things long before the age of 15.

Leif

[Guest guest]

What about the question of being taken advantage of? I think this is

likely of either sexes - and there are cases of mothers abusing their

male children and it can and does leave emotional scars. It can

confuse and complicate future relationships.

>

> > By Hugh Farley, M.S.

> > Consultant to the VIRTUS Programs

> > ...

> > When a female offender, acting alone, is charged with a sex

> > offense, the public and even the media tends to be more

> > sympathetic than they are to their male counterparts. The

> > incident is often reported as being a eduction or that the

> > offender was having an affair with the teenage victim.

>

> There's more to it than just " people are more sympathetic.

>

> First, the nature of the " victim " is different. One would be

> hard-pressed t find emotional harm to a teenaged boy to having

> been deduced by an older woman. This will not " scar him for

> life " or make meaningful loving relationships difficult.

>

> (An exception would be insest, but the news story does not

> suggest that.

>

> Second, there are cultures in which a teenager is taken to a

> prostitute to introduce him to sex. I don't think I'd have

> wanted that, but that's not the issue. It's just that it is

> much more culturally acceptable for underage boys to be

> introduced to sex with older women. (There are also cultures

> where teenagers are expected to have sex with each other, but

> that obviates the under-age - mature age issue.)

>

> The event does not rais moral approbrium. To the contrary, it's

> sort of a fantasy that " If I knew what I know today, I could

> have befriended ___ when I was a teen. "

>

> So we're left with two issues:

>

> 1. Should boys be treated differently from girls even though

> that contradicts the concept of sexual equality?

>

> 2. Is there a harm to society or more on-point to the youth

> (other than unequal treatment of boys and girls) when an older

> woman has sex with him?

>

> - s

>

[Guest guest]

:

> What about the question of being taken advantage of? I think this is

> likely of either sexes - and there are cases of mothers abusing their

> male children and it can and does leave emotional scars. It can

> confuse and complicate future relationships.

Yes, the issue of being taken advantage of should be the focus. I

suspect this would be what leaves emotional scars, and not breaking

cultural taboos, which under-age sex really is an example of.

Leif

[Guest guest]

There is also the point that often what we want isn't good for us. Teen sex in US is at high levels right now. On the plus side, pregnancies are down a little. On the negative side, birth to unwed mothers are increasing and STD's are at record high levels. We see much the same pattern in Europe and Japan as well. From what I have gathered, STD's are almost epidemic amongst Japanese teens.

So, just because a kids, boy or girl, wants to have sex doesn't mean they are ready for it or fully understand the consquences. Several studies have linked teen sexual activity with lower self-esteem. This can be a baseline state or very commonly it occurrs after the activity because the person feels bad about it. It can also get them teased and bullied, especially girls.

There is also a term that has been around for ages. "Robbing the cradle" it used to be called when an older person, male of female, took after minors. I honestly think anyone over 18 who is sexually attracted to someone 14 or under is nothing but a pedophile. I mean really, a 12 year old is still a kid and doesn't have a developed adult personality yet. So what else could the attraction be?

Let's take this another step then. If it should be legal for adults to have consensual sex with minors, then we would have to lift the ban on child pornography. Certainly there would be boys and girls out there willing to do it in front of a camera for a few hundred bucks just like the adults. If they are to be deemed to have adult powers of consent, then they should be allowed to make porn, work in strip clubs, as prostitutes and whatever else in the "sex industry".

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/16/2005 2:57:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, vze2txm3@... writes:

I view that as a separate issue, as is the case in which the older woman's authority status raises to the level where the youth cannot easily say "no".

There is a flaw in this argument. This is the same line of reason some radical black leaders use to claim that they aren't racist and that blacks can't be. They claim that because black people don't have power they can't be racist since you have to have power to be racist. This is obviously wrong because racism is a state of mind and has nothing to do with power. A dirt poor redneck is just as capable of being a racist as a mutli-millionaire rap star.

By the same token, you can always say no. The only way someone can still make you do something is by force. That is indeed a more serious offense. However, the law does recognize several types of "force". There is physical force, restraint, denial of aid, psychological abuse and lots of things that the victim might percieve as a threat.

There is also the matter of temptation. This too has great power to get people to do what they otherwise wouldn't. A lot of alcoholics, drug addicts and gamblers ended up as they are by giving in to temptation that first time. I'm sure a slick adult could tempt a child into doing something against the best interest, just like using the right bait can draw a mouse into a trap.

Still, temptation is every bit as wrong as force in this regard.

[Guest guest]

The logic is that girls don't seem to know what they want. If an adult

male approaches them and offers sex, they might be intrigued by the

idea and go along with it, but I don't think they'd really know what

would happen if they'd had it before. Girls tend to THINK they know

what they want, but they really don't.

Boys on the other hand seem to want any kind of sexual contact with a

female they can get. At least hetrosexual boys do. And if a woman came

along that offered it, I think they'd take it, enjoy it, keep it

secret. But if a man offered to have sex with them, because that sort

of thing is taboo, they'd say no immediately and tell anyone who would

listened that they'd been propositioned or raped.

The fact is that in either case, sex is not good for youngsters. Is a

young girl able to deal with STDs or take care of a baby? Is a boy

prepared to deal with STDs or be an early father?

Most youngsters are not allowed to drive because they are incaple of

good judgement at their ages. They may not imbibe alcohol or smoke

because it make cause harm to their developing bodies. They cannot go

to war because seeing guts rupture in front of them would be too

traumatic for them. Kids should not be allowed or encouraged to have

sexual intercourse with adults or with other kids. Allowing them to do

so would be like playing with fire.

Tom

Administrator

Why? I fail to see the logic. What is so wrong with girls having early

sex? Is it society that should condem this when it is consential? Isn't

this a way of saying that girls don't have the ability to consent to

sex before the age of 15? They obviously seems to have an ability to

consent to many other things long before the age of 15.

Leif

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/16/2005 3:39:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes:

Just a side question--are abortions included in the pregnancy rates? Because if not, there would be a much higher rate which would mean that pregnancies are probably up. And do those programs where the kids have to carry dolls around work? I was in church on Sunday and my husband's niece took a crying baby to the back. It turns out it was a doll. They make them realistic now--it sure sounded like a real baby. I just read something recently about chlamydia rates going up drastically. Chlamydia and gonorrhea rates are highest in the 15 to 19 age group.

I don't know if abortions are included or not. I haven't seen figures for that but they're bound to be out there somewhere.

Chlamydia is indeed way up among teens. Most of the time it has no symptoms and can get around condoms to spread. This area around here has some of the highest infection rates in the state and region for chlamydia, herpes and frighteningly syphilus.

[Guest guest]

Something I have noticed is that the older one gets the less age

difference seems to matter - for example when I was 15 a guy of 18

seemed a lot older (to me anyway), but now I am older age differences

don't seem such a big thing - though obviously I am not interested in

minors - for a start I think of them more as a mother would a son (in

a healthy way) and could never imagine intimate relations with them.

>

> > Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced

> > into sexuality is with an older female who will teach him what to

> > do.

> > I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Since I'm not male, I have no

> > way of knowing how I'd feel about that.

>

> We get an idea from the comments about it being a fantasy come

> true. It's abuse only because the law says it's abuse; not

> because of the harm it can cause.

>

> > I do think there should be equality between sexes, though.

>

> Then let's assume we prosecute men for statutory rape

> (consentual sex with an underage partner). Then we should make

> the crime sex-neutral. Now if we catch a woman having sex with

> an underage partner must we apply the same serious criminal

> charges against her (criminally prosecute her)? What if the

> only reason we prosecute her is to maintain equality?

>

> My response would be:

>

> 1. I'd presume that a woman having sex with an underage partner

> (in most circumstances) is not the same as a man doing so.

> (Actually, I think women should be encouraged to do so as

> beneficial to society.)

>

> 2. I hold equality to be important as a societal goal. There

> should also be reasonable accomodations.

>

> 3. There are exceptions to equality, but the exceptions should

> be limited to places where reasonable accomodation is not

> available.

>

> 4. In the case of the burden of equality being exceptionally

> high, such as prosecuting women having sex with teenage boys, I

> would make an exception to the goal of equality.

>

> > Here in Sweden the Age of Consent is 15. That makes the whole

> > issue a lot less hysterical.

>

> Most of the statutory rape laws in the US include an age

> difference qualifier, such as " sex with a person under 18,

> unless the age difference is less than 3 years. "

>

> - s

>

[Guest guest]

>From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >

>

> The logic is that girls don't seem to know what they want.

I disagree...

> Boys on the other hand seem to want any kind of sexual contact with a

> female they can get.

Let's presume that youth of both sexes know what they want. Then it's a matter

of determining what the harm or potential harm is to boys and to girls.

> But if a man offered to have sex with them, because that sort

>of thing is taboo, they'd say no immediately and tell anyone who would

>listened that they'd been propositioned or raped.

That's a matter of what we as a society deem to be acceptable or not acceptable.

i.e., we don't wish to introduce boys to having sex with men.

> The fact is that in either case, sex is not good for youngsters.

The laws for consensual sex between youth within their own age group are much

less harsh, or permit it.

- s

[Guest guest]

>From: greebohere <julie.stevenson16@...>

>

>What about the question of being taken advantage of? I think this is

>likely of either sexes - and there are cases of mothers abusing their

>male children and it can and does leave emotional scars.

I view that as a separate issue, as is the case in which the older woman's

authority status raises to the level where the youth cannot easily say " no " .

- s

[Guest guest]

" On the plus side, pregnancies are down a

> little. On the negative side, birth to unwed mothers are increasing

and STD's

> are at record high levels. "

Just a side question--are abortions included in the pregnancy rates?

Because if not, there would be a much higher rate which would mean that

pregnancies are probably up.

And do those programs where the kids have to carry dolls around work? I

was in church on Sunday and my husband's niece took a crying baby to

the back. It turns out it was a doll. They make them realistic now--it

sure sounded like a real baby.

I just read something recently about chlamydia rates going up

drastically. Chlamydia and gonorrhea rates are highest in the 15 to 19

age group.

[Guest guest]

I agree with on this issue.

Even if you throw moraility and ethics out the window, children who

beleive they know what they want may be wanting something that's not

good for them, and may be trying to acquire something that they are

not yet ready to handle.

When I was in junior high there was a machine in woodshop that

required performing two functions at once (can't remember what it

was). But all the kids were given a dexterity test and if they

passed it, they could use it. What they had to do was rub their

stomach in a circular motion with one hand and pat their head up and

down with the other. The idea was to see if they were physically

cable of coordinating two different actions.

Some kids could do it, and other kids couldn't. In the first case,

the kids were allowed to use the machine, and in the second, the

shop teacher had to use the machine to do whatever needed to be done

for them. This was true even though ALL the kids wanted to use the

machine, but had uncoordinated kids done so, they might have lost a

finger.

Both children AND adults, on the whole, seem to have already proven

that having sex is something that can't always be done responsibly.

There are unwanted teen pregnancies as well as unwanted adult

pregrancies. STDs and HIV are rampant in both age groups, although

at present HIV is more prominent in adults.

From roughly the age of 12 onward, all I and my male friends thought

about was sex. Nothing wrong with that. It's normal. Both for

children and adults. And you are always going to have

experimentation of all kinds going on: Masturbation, sex, fetishes.

It's probably all just another part of life.

However, sooner or later, people need to start taking responsibility

for themselves. As a taxpayer, I should not have to pay for

abortions, post-abortion counseling, children in foster care or

orphanages, etc. (Don't get me wrong - I will pay taxes that support

an orphanage any day. I would rather have my money go to that

instead of paying for elective abortions.) Yet I wind up paying for

them. Why? Because either:

A) People made a decision to abort or..

People made a mistake and decided to abort or to place the child

up for adoption.

It's understandable that people make certain decisions, and people

do make mistakes. I make mistakes all the time.

But the best way to avoid making them is firhst to educate oneself

before doing something, assess and evaluate possible risks, and

abstain from the actvity if the potential risks outweigh the

advantages.

Is one orgasm worth the price of either destroying an unborn baby or

rasing an unwanted child to the age of 18? For me, the answer is no.

And, to be honest, if anyone would answer " Yes " then my feeling

would be that they should not be having sex at all.

The very fact that we are all having such discussions indicates that

we are mature enough to seriously consider the ramifications of kids

having sex with kids and adults having sex with kids. But most of

the people who engage in those activities are NOT mature enough,

otherwise they would elect not to engage in those activities.

" If it feels good, do it " is not a good enough reason to do

something, especially when there may be a third party involved who

could lose his or her life that never asked to be involved in the

situation in the first place.

Tom

Administrator

-- In , VISIGOTH@A... wrote:

There is also the point that often what we want isn't good for us.

Teen sex in US is at high levels right now. On the plus side,

pregnancies are down a little. On the negative side, birth to unwed

mothers are increasing and STD's are at record high levels. We see

much the same pattern in Europe and Japan as well. From what I have

gathered, STD's are almost epidemic amongst Japanese teens.

So, just because a kids, boy or girl, wants to have sex doesn't mean

they are ready for it or fully understand the consquences. Several

studies have linked teen sexual activity with lower self-esteem.

This can be a baseline state or very commonly it occurrs after the

activity because the person feels bad about it. It can also get them

teased and bullied, especially girls.

There is also a term that has been around for ages. " Robbing the

cradle " it used to be called when an older person, male of female,

took after minors. I honestly think anyone over 18 who is sexually

attracted to someone 14 or under is nothing but a pedophile. I mean

really, a 12 year old is still a kid and doesn't have a developed

adult personality yet. So what else could the attraction be?

Let's take this another step then. If it should be legal for adults

to have consensual sex with minors, then we would have to lift the

ban on child pornography. Certainly there would be boys and girls

out there willing to do it in front of a camera for a few hundred

bucks just like the adults. If they are to be deemed to have adult

powers of consent, then they should be allowed to make porn, work in

strip clubs, as prostitutes and whatever else in the " sex industry " .

[Guest guest]

,

for once, I agree 100%- :-)

Inger

Re: Re: Identifying the Female Child Sex Offender

I see saying that a man having sex with a minor girl is a crime but a woman having sex with a minor is not as rather sexist. Just because a woman offers sex doesn't mean a man or boy is going to be interested. To assume otherwise is to buy into a sexist stereotype.

The opposite also applies. To assume that sexual encounters between an older man and a girl is automatically abuse is also sexist not only against men but girls as well. You can't on one hand say that boys can't be sexually abused by women and then turn around and say that girls can't be but abused by men. It doesn't fly. Who's to say the girls wouldn't enjoy it every bit as much as the boys are supposed to? Since pleasure is to be the determining factor here, then a man and a girl is no worse than a woman and a boy.

In my experience 12 is too young to make serious decisions. A lot of people can't even make sound decisions at 18, 21 or older. This is why credit card companies love college kids. They know the kids have no idea about money so they max out the cards and have to pay lots of interest. It is why cell phone companies want kids to have phones. The kids have no concept of money or responsibility so they use it and rack up huge bills for their parent's and then blame the parents when they take the phone away.

But let's look at this another way. If on the one hand one says kids of 12 should be allowed to have sex and make other adult decisions, then kids of 12 who commit a crime should be charged, prosecuted and jailed as adults and with adults. You can't have one side without the other.

[Guest guest]

> On 15 Nov 2005 Inger Lorelei wrote:

>

>> Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced

>> into sexuality is with an older female who will teach him what to

>> do.

>

> Is she a dominatrix? ;-)

No, she's a sleazy romance novel writer. :-)

>>> I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Since I'm not male, I have no

>> way of knowing how I'd feel about that.

>

> I think the same as a girl would about being introduced by an

older man.

And I would think that depends on HOW much older.

> 1. I'd presume that a woman having sex with an underage partner

> (in most circumstances) is not the same as a man doing so.

> (Actually, I think women should be encouraged to do so as

> beneficial to society.)

Leif:

> What is so wrong with girls having early sex? Is it society that should

> condem this when it is consential? Isn't this a way of saying that girls

> don't have the ability to consent to sex before the age of 15? They

> obviously seems to have an ability to consent to many other things long

> before the age of 15.

If the girl really WANTS it, then I see nothing wrong with starting when

puberty sets in, as all other amilmals do. The problem arises if it is not

only permitted but EXPECTED - as it is in many African and Hindu cultures,

where the girl has no way to refuse if she doesn't feel ready for it.

Even in the West now I understand that there is a growing trend among teens

that girls are expected to do certain things for guys at their command and

girls have to comply or risk being seen as uncool and becoming unpopular?

That can hardly healthy. And if it was permitted for older men to have

affairs with younger girls, there is no end to how many girls would be taken

advantage of AGAINST their will. (Even more than already are today.)

But I also think it's ridiculous when a man over 20 gets charged with

statuatory rape for having a relationship with someone of 17. Like Charlie

Chaplin and Errol Flynn.

Inger

[Guest guest]

I know a 70-year old woman who was raped as a teenager by an older

man. He then married her to make it okay. She was extremely beautiful

(still is) so it was almost considered by himself and society that he

couldn't help it. Her parents thought the marriage would make it

right. It really messed her up and after being married to him all

those years, he died about 5 years ago. She says she grew to love him

and misses him but the poor woman is now looking for a boyfriend who

is about 40 and black. (Her husband was quite older than her and

white, to me showing the buried aversion she had for him.) She

honestly doesn't understand that a 40 year old man will not go for a

70 year old woman and it has caused a lot of problems when her

targets have thought she was being a mother-figure.

> >

> >> Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced

> >> into sexuality is with an older female who will teach him what to

> >> do.

> >

> > Is she a dominatrix? ;-)

>

> No, she's a sleazy romance novel writer. :-)

>

> >>> I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Since I'm not male, I have

no

> >> way of knowing how I'd feel about that.

> >

> > I think the same as a girl would about being introduced by an

> older man.

>

> And I would think that depends on HOW much older.

>

> > 1. I'd presume that a woman having sex with an underage partner

> > (in most circumstances) is not the same as a man doing so.

> > (Actually, I think women should be encouraged to do so as

> > beneficial to society.)

>

> Leif:

> > What is so wrong with girls having early sex? Is it society that

should

> > condem this when it is consential? Isn't this a way of saying

that girls

> > don't have the ability to consent to sex before the age of 15?

They

> > obviously seems to have an ability to consent to many other

things long

> > before the age of 15.

>

> If the girl really WANTS it, then I see nothing wrong with starting

when

> puberty sets in, as all other amilmals do. The problem arises if it

is not

> only permitted but EXPECTED - as it is in many African and Hindu

cultures,

> where the girl has no way to refuse if she doesn't feel ready for

it.

>

> Even in the West now I understand that there is a growing trend

among teens

> that girls are expected to do certain things for guys at their

command and

> girls have to comply or risk being seen as uncool and becoming

unpopular?

> That can hardly healthy. And if it was permitted for older men to

have

> affairs with younger girls, there is no end to how many girls would

be taken

> advantage of AGAINST their will. (Even more than already are today.)

>

> But I also think it's ridiculous when a man over 20 gets charged

with

> statuatory rape for having a relationship with someone of 17. Like

Charlie

> Chaplin and Errol Flynn.

>

> Inger

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/16/2005 11:26:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

> On 15 Nov 2005 Inger Lorelei wrote:>>> Barbara Cartland says the best way for boys to get introduced>> into sexuality is with an older female who will teach him what to>> do.>> Is she a dominatrix? ;-)No, she's a sleazy romance novel writer. :-)

This reminds me. A few years ago a nearby Theme Park was opening a new ride. Right up front was Romance Novel cover model Fabio. As the roller coaster was coming down one of the hills, Fabio heroically saved the passengers behind him from a low fly duck by catching it with his nose. It was really funny seeing him on the news, the roller coaster train coming into the station and him with blood and feathers all over his face. The blood was his and as far as I know the duck or goose whatever it was flew away.

[Guest guest]

, I don't think anyone on this thread said it's OK to have sex with CHILDREN.

There is a difference between someone over 18 having consensual sex with a 15-yo vs with a pre-pubescent CHILD. In the latter case I very much doubt that it is consensual or non-harmful, regardless of gender. Anyone over 18 who is wants to have sex with someone under 13 is a paedophile indeed!

That said, there ARE individual differences in sexual maturity, just as in other types of maturity. But a limit at 15 as we have here in Sweden seems to work well enough. This doesn't mean you HAVE to have sex at that age, only that it's not illegal.

With proper education on risks and protection, that's probably a better way of avoiding teen pregnancies, STDs etc, than just having an age limit that no one will follow and sweep the whole issue under the carpet and hope for the best.

Inger

Re: Re: Identifying the Female Child Sex Offender

There is also the point that often what we want isn't good for us. Teen sex in US is at high levels right now. On the plus side, pregnancies are down a little. On the negative side, birth to unwed mothers are increasing and STD's are at record high levels. We see much the same pattern in Europe and Japan as well. From what I have gathered, STD's are almost epidemic amongst Japanese teens.

So, just because a kids, boy or girl, wants to have sex doesn't mean they are ready for it or fully understand the consquences. Several studies have linked teen sexual activity with lower self-esteem. This can be a baseline state or very commonly it occurrs after the activity because the person feels bad about it. It can also get them teased and bullied, especially girls.

There is also a term that has been around for ages. "Robbing the cradle" it used to be called when an older person, male of female, took after minors. I honestly think anyone over 18 who is sexually attracted to someone 14 or under is nothing but a pedophile. I mean really, a 12 year old is still a kid and doesn't have a developed adult personality yet. So what else could the attraction be?

Let's take this another step then. If it should be legal for adults to have consensual sex with minors, then we would have to lift the ban on child pornography. Certainly there would be boys and girls out there willing to do it in front of a camera for a few hundred bucks just like the adults. If they are to be deemed to have adult powers of consent, then they should be allowed to make porn, work in strip clubs, as prostitutes and whatever else in the "sex industry".

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/18/2005 2:20:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

With proper education on risks and protection, that's probably a better way of avoiding teen pregnancies, STDs etc, than just having an age limit that no one will follow and sweep the whole issue under the carpet and hope for the best.

Inger

Proper education can help, but then again it can also hurt. We've been having sex education here in the States for some time, but the teen sexual activity rates have been going up as have STDs. I think, however, that this is because most of the sex education programs have been hijacked by people with ulterior motives. Many of the programs gloss over abstinence and STDs and are instead more of a "how to" manual and the message is "It feels good so damn the consequences and full speed ahead!"

Here is an example that was caught and challenged. This is by no means an isolated incident but has been common for the last 15 years.

WARNING: if you are offended by sexual material don't read any further.

Abstinence Educators Call for GAO Investigation of Government Spending on Comprehensive Sex Education

11/3/2005 12:54:00 PM

National Desk

Contact: Nickle of Project Reality, 847-729-3298 or melissa@...

GLENVIEW, Ill., Nov. 3 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In the midst of a national Abstinence Education Evaluation Conference being sponsored by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services this week, abstinence educators are calling for an investigation of the questionable content and ethical concerns with comprehensive sex education programs being supported with government money. Rather than allowing abstinence educators to follow the conference agenda, an organization called Housing Works sabotaged this morning's session with a 10-minute demonstration attacking abstinence education and Claude , the deputy secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, to the point that security needed to be called to restore order. In addition, it has been revealed that individuals representing the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS) and other nationally known abstinence education opponents, are present at the meeting.

Prior to the start of the conference attendees had been informed that SIECUS and other abstinence opponents might launch an attack on this conference in an attempt to deflect attention away from questionable and unethical studies on comprehensive sex education programs. One such study is on the Focus on Kids program that evaluated children as young as age nine on condom use. However, it was never made public that SIECUS would have representation at the conference. Representatives from Project Reality are present at the conference and able to report first-hand information about the current happenings.

SIECUS and the CDC have a record of recommending curricula with extremely graphic content such as the use of grocery items like grape jelly being used as lubricants (Becoming a Responsible Teen), condom relay races, condom practice and fantasizing during classroom time, a homework assignment to go shopping for condoms, and how-to instructions for oral sex (Becoming a Responsible Teen, Be Proud! Be Responsible!, Get Real About AIDS). Focus on Kids, a curriculum for 9-15-year-olds, assigns teens to create a list of ways to be close to a person without having intercourse, including, "body massage, bathing together, masturbation, sensuous feeding, fantasizing, watching erotic movies, reading erotic books and magazines."

"The content of these programs and exposing children as young as age nine to studies on sexual practices calls into question who authorized and recommended these programs in the first place," stated Libby Gray Macke, director of Project Reality. "Once again, SIECUS and other comprehensive sex ed advocates prefer to attack successful programs rather than have the content of their own recommended programs exposed. We hope that the GAO will investigate these programs to ensure that children are not exposed to these dangerous programs."

Abstinence opponents like SIECUS claim that abstinence programs have not been proven successful despite the many studies that support abstinence education across the country, including Northwestern University Medical School's high-quality evaluations on Project Reality's programs. Both the Game Plan evaluation and Navigator initial results have indicated that survey data presents clear and convincing evidence that adolescents who participated in an abstinence education program shifted their attitudes towards a stronger belief in the value of abstinence and a greater commitment to practice abstinence until marriage. In addition, it shows that the abstinence message can reach youth who are already sexually active. For example, in the Game Plan evaluation post-test, 83 percent of teens agreed/strongly agreed that a person who has been sexually active is able to choose abstinence for the future vs. the pre-test figure of 48 percent. The Navigator initial results were almost identical with 83 percent post-test vs. 45 percent pre-test. In addition, numbers dramatically increased in both evaluations when asked if abstinence is a healthy choice. Game Plan results showed an increase from 57 percent pre-test to 87 percent post-test in the agree/strongly agree category and Navigator results increased from 54 percent pre-test to 82 percent post-test respectively. Visit http://projectreality.org/reality/teachers/index.php?id=38 to see evaluation results.

Project Reality, a 501©(3) not-for-profit organization, has been a pioneer in the national field of adolescent health education since 1985. Funded in part by grants from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Project Reality specializes in the development, teaching and evaluation of abstinence programs in the public schools. Project Reality serves middle and high school students, youth groups and parents with their abstinence and character education programs such as Game Plan, Navigator, I Can Do That! and Parent Power. During the 2004- 2005 school year, more than 100,000 students in approximately 525 schools throughout the state of Illinois were served through Project Reality programs and 20,000 additional students will be served during the 2005-2006 school year in the District of Columbia, Florida and New Mexico.

http://www.usnewswire.com/

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