Re: Are We Really Capable of Meaningful Relationships?

[Guest guest]

,

It seems that with each succeeding generation we have people saying

that there was less crime and happier times when they were younger.

People who know we personally have said I am starting to sound like an

old man because even I am starting to make such comments these days.

The media, and some sociologists, will say that the reson we see more

crime these days is simply that with the advancement of technology,

more crimes are being REPORTED, even though crime experience per

CAPITA is actually on the DECREASE.

Those statements are misleading. All that can be said is that, as the

population expands, the AVERAGE number of crimes decreases per person.

But statistics will bear out that the acutal NUMBER of crimes still

increases as the population grows. Also, the media and sociologists

tend to focus on violent crime as an indicator of whether the criminal

behavior is getting better or getting worse. That perspective does not

acknowledge that the TYPES of crimes tend to fluctuate due to savvy

criminals figuring out how to exploit the latest advancements and

inventions to their advantage.

For example: In the old days, you had bank robberies and holdups.

After that you had counterfitting. Now you see identity theft. But

because couterfieting and identity theft aren't VIOLENT crimes,

society is argued to be improving. This ignores the fact that

identity theft is at an all time high.

The fact is, there is more crime going on than there has ever been in

the history of the United States, so part of the degeneration into

Roman times can be explained by this ever increasing amount of

criminal behavior.

But then there is also " happiness " and this would be the main item

that caused the Romans to fall.

The US constitution does NOT guaruntee happiness. It merely guaruntees

the right to PURSUE happiness.

Nevertheless, most people feel happiness is something they are

entitled to rather than something they need to work for.

My feeling is that we have TV, PCs, CDs, DVDs, video games, movies,

drugs, alcohol, sex, porn and everything else in such proliferation

because people do not want to take the time to WORK for happiness and

want to have fun and pleasure NOW. Thus they settle for base

diversions, games and toys as a catharsis rather than on working to

make comfortable lives for themselves and working to grow long

lasting, meaningful rerlationships with their friends, loved ones,

family members and partners.

For generation after generation we have been seeing degeneration after

degeneration, but society has allowed it because the government, the

media, and commercial entities have successfully managed to dull and

paradoxically satisfy the minds and cravings of the people who are

actually best suited to rise up and overthrow them.

So instead of craving deep relationships with people and modest

lifestyles at home, we think " me first " and work to beat the es.

The American ethic " Keeping up with the es " is now old hat. Now

it's " Lets beat them and who cares about them anyway? " This is why

nobody knows their neighbors anymore. You cannot get too friendly with

people you are competing against or they will " drag you down. "

Sooner or later, a very low threshold will be reached, and breaking

this barrier will mean that the people, or a segment of the people

will not stand for any more base and degrading behavior. You will then

see uprisings. But until that time, I am convinced that things will

get worse rather than better.

Tom

Maybe this is an indicator (see: Romans) that our society is at it's

end.

[Guest guest]

That's like my neighborhood when I was a kid. What would often happen was if a parent caught us doing something wrong, they would give us a talking to but they would also tell our parent's about it. Our own parent's would then dish out the punishment.

Its true we didn't know which parent might be watching, but we also had the eyes of the other neighbors on us too. Now and then we would hear a "you kids be careful now," when we were playing around the creek. It was one of the neighbors and sometimes we didn't even see them even when they called to us. If they saw us doing something they might yell at us to cut it out and if they could figure out who we were, they would pass it on to our parents.

When I was in school, they could tell you not to do things because it was a bad thing to do. We had some bullying and fights, but it was rare. I can recall several years where there weren't any fights at all between anyone in the grades in our buildings. There might have been a couple of tussles, but nothing like a fight, especially not the kinds of fights you see these days. At military school, we had clear regulations as to what was acceptable and not. If you transgressed, you got demerits. The more demerits, the more priviledges you lost and the more punishments you got. To work off demerits you might have to work in the mess hall taking and cleaning dirty trays, you might have to help clean the grounds or you might have to march for 45 minutes per demerit. The worst of the privelidges you could lose was your weekend leave. Leaves were when you left on Friday to go home and you came back on Sunday. The demerits were never actually removed from your record. They stayed and accumulated. If you reached 120 I think it was, you got expelled. You could also get expelled for things like getting drunk (I know of at least 3 cases of cadets expelled for that), really beating someone up in a fight and things like that. Fighting was a lot of demerits and if you had rank you stood a good chance of losing it. Of course we had the chronic troublemakers, but most of them eventually reached the magic number and were gone.

[Guest guest]

>

> Maybe this is an indicator (see: Romans) that our society is at it's

> end.

>

[Guest guest]

I still believe there is hope; maybe I am over optimistic, but this

forum itself lends testimony to people wanting to get involved in

deeper conversations and scratch below the surface level - I think a

lot of people crave this, but few are willing to work for it.

Yes in the past I think in some cases some things were better, but

also some things were worse. Yes you could leave your door unlocked,

but then most people didn't have anything worth stealing, yes in some

respects there was more of a sense of community - but there was also

lots of idle chit chat and gossip - single mothers were shunned and

given little to no support. I do believe it is irresponsible to have

lots of children to different fathers, but also I do believe not

every woman intends to end up a single mother. I am a single mother,

but I married the father of my child. Why should a mother be made a

scapegoat to irresponsible fathers.

Also there was a lot less crime reported, but also a lot more crime

got hushed up - things that went on behind closed doors was very

rarely reported with belief systems such as 'keep it in the family'

and 'don't air your dirty laundry in public' and such like.

I wonder about some things though - the media do potray crime as

glamorous to some extent - gangs as cool etc and I think there

certainly seems to be more of a drug culture and problem now.

There is definitely some sort of degeneration going on - family

values are hardly noticeable, more broken homes etc. I am not sure

quite what is to blame here? In my grandmothers generation she didn't

work, apart from maybe war time effort, but my mother has always

worked whether part time or full time, but this was more out of

neccesity than want - financially she needed to work even though she

was married. My grandparents helped out with me and my brother, my

mum hasn't been able to help me out as much with my son as she has

been busy working.

Values have changed people rate possesions over people, material

stuff over values - I believe there is no lasting hapiness in any of

this material junk. Relationships are hard and do take working at,

but there value is so much more than any money could buy - I could

never buy the love of my son - nor do I try.

" The American ethic " Keeping up with the es " is now old hat.

Now it's " Lets beat them and who cares about them anyway? " This is

why nobody knows their neighbors anymore. You cannot get too friendly

with people you are competing against or they will " drag you down. " "

I have gotten to know my neighbours in the past, mostly because they

were genuinely nice people and had the time - I think a lot of people

now a days just do not have the time (I think time to get to know

people is important btw) and my social and sensory difficulties makes

it hard to get to know people too.

>

> Maybe this is an indicator (see: Romans) that our society is at it's

> end.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, we've become a soft society addicted to comforts and pleasures--

no one wants to risk those or put themselves on the line. And how

many governments have we seen replace governments that were the same

or worse in cycle after cycle on the earth?

>

>

> It could be a symptom of it, but I don't think the end is

inevitable. We

> could stop it if decent people woudl stand up and say " ENOUGH!! " to

the

> foolishness that is dividing and weakening the country. I don't

think it will happen

> though. When societies are in bad shape it is rare that anything

will be done

> to save it. Rather it will fall and usually be replaced by a

dictatorship.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> " What really upsets me though is all the people who are going into

debt to

> buy these things. Basic personal finance says that's a bad idea.

Sure you can

> take a loan and buy some fancy things, but you'll be paying not

only the cost

> of the item but also the cost of interest. So, that new thing is

costing more

> than the original price. It would be much better to save up the

money that

> would have gone to the loan payments for several months an then

buy the thing.

> By that time the price probably would have come down anyway or

something

> newer would have come out lowering the price even more. "

I've read that the amount of people getting interest-only mortgages

was 31% last year. People are getting them in order to afford more

house or because they can't afford the one they got. And the average

credit card debt is somewhere between $8,000 and $10,000.

[Guest guest]

Well, I suppose another purpose of these groups is to really, really

REALLY say what is on our minds. Aspies are by nature deep thinkers

and the difference bewteen Aspies and non-Aspies is that we allow

ourselves to contemplate in depth topics that are not necessarily

socially permissible. To do so here with such freedom is very

liberating to me.

For instance here we are having a political discussion on the

ramifications of society's apparent moral degeneration. We have

effectly pointed out the inherent faults in America's political and

governing system, and managed to blame 90% of American citizenry for

the problem.

If this were the McCarthy era we would all be under investigation from

the FBI right now.

As these conversations stand now however, it's clear that no here is

plotting the overthrow of the US Government, nor are we trying to

inspire a societal upheaval, but one must admit that talking and

contemplating and really THINKING about these things has cathartic and

therapeutic value. And many good ideas have been generated besides.

My mind is never so much in contentment as when it is deeply

contemplating subject matters that most people avoid as a matter of

course due to social unacceptableness.

But seldom if ever do I see such conversations going on between non-

Aspies, and if I have seen them, they are one time events.

The irony is that these types of in-depth conversations are NEEDED for

society to continue to grow in a more positive direction. And I don't

just mean political debates. I mean debates on every conceivable

subject matter.

In the time that this forum has been in existence we have talked about

conservation, new energy sources, space exploration, life (it's

meaning and its worth) politics, emotions, feelings, love. All sorts

of things.

When is the last time that anyone has ever had so many deep and

meaningful conversations in the space of less than a year and a half?

Yet I can't help but think that if EVERYONE thought in such depth that

real progress could be made in the world and the world would be a

better place for everyone in the end.

But most people can't or don't want to see past their own noses and

pursue any intellectual exploration that does not have personal

benefits.

Tom

Administrator

I still believe there is hope; maybe I am over optimistic, but this

forum itself lends testimony to people wanting to get involved in

deeper conversations and scratch below the surface level - I think a

lot of people crave this, but few are willing to work for it.

[Guest guest]

When I was a kid there were twelve kids on the block, and there was an

unspoken rule among the parents and children that any parent could

discipline any other parent's kid any way they wanted to at any time

for any reason without consequence. In fact, even if you weren't a

parent but still an adult, you could discipline misbehaving kids.

This worked well.

Though some parents were stricter than others, it was never really an

issue because, since we were never sure where the boudaries and what

the limits were, we kids took it upon ourselves to behave well so as

not to RISK getting punished.

Also, when we all played outside, we never knew which parents were

looking out the windows at us to make sure we weren't up to any

mischeif, so even if we were playing in a deserted corner of someone's

backyard, we were still well-behaved.

This sort of communal parenting worked well on a second level. Because

no parent wanted to offend another parent, they were reserved with

handing out discipline and played the parts of mentors rather than

enforcers of rules. A child was more likely to get talked to than

yelled and and spanked.

But, at the same time, because the parents didn't want to be held

responsible if someone's kid was about to be hurt, they would always

err on the side of caution and step in the second they felt they

should.

Now days many parents tell others " If you discipline my kid, I'll sue

ya! " Supervision of any kind is a joke in many homes because the kids

seem to be left to their own devices while the parents watch TV, talk

on the phone, or use the computer. Many times, kids are simply left

home alone while the parents go out shopping.

There are indeed problems with morals and ethics these days. When I

was a kid (and boy do I sound like an old man or what?) good was good

and bad was bad, and while the people in my neighborhood were multi-

cultural, and of varying religions or of no religions at all, all had

a basic understanding of morals and ethics that transcended and built

upon the tenets of our combined religions and lack of religions that

approximated law.

And my family's own morals and values were stricter than that. I can

remember my mom sitting down with me after certain TV shows and asking

if I thought what a character did was right or wrong and why, and

asking what I would do in the situation, and then her telling me what

SHE would do.

One doesn't have to be religious to have morals and ethics, and it is

a fallacy to think that morals and ethics should not be taught in

schools.

Is stealing right or wrong?

Is hitting someone else right or wrong?

Is copying someone else's work and claming it as your own right or

wrong?

These and other questions are easily answered and no religious values

need be brought into the discussion to validate the morals and ethics

of NOT stealing, hitting, or copying.

ly I am stunned and shocked that, when people are faced with a

moral delimma, they will, without a qualm, throw morals and ethics out

the window so that they may avoid treading on another's feet and so

that they can stay in good social standing with them.

Tom

Also, they can't teach right from wrong in public schools anymore.

Right and wrong may have a " religious " connotation and that is not

allowed under separation of church and state. That separation actually

comes from a letter written by one of the Founders and is nowhere in

the Constitution. What IS in the Constitution is a prohibition on an

official government church, like the Church of England. Expression of

religion is protected by the First, not prohibited by it. Anyway, the

result is kids aren't being taught basic rules of ethical and civil

behavior. Add to that the violent games and music and lack of

punishment when they do act up and you get little monsters running

around. This in turn feeds people's fear and willingness to let the

government " do something " about it. The media further hypes this with

scare stories about kidnappings, childmolesters and home invasions.

[Guest guest]

Yes. I have found it so frustrating to bring up a topic that I

thought was important to discuss or interesting or in trying to bring

about some little change based on logic or fairness or compassion or

at least to bounce ideas off someone to get perspective only to have

blank stares or silence be the response. It's not only frustrating

but incomprehensible to me. I would often even prefer a hostile

response to no response at all (and I don't like hostility).

>

> I still believe there is hope; maybe I am over optimistic, but this

> forum itself lends testimony to people wanting to get involved in

> deeper conversations and scratch below the surface level - I think a

> lot of people crave this, but few are willing to work for it.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> " When I was a kid there were twelve kids on the block, and there was

an

> unspoken rule among the parents and children that any parent could

> discipline any other parent's kid any way they wanted to at any

time

> for any reason without consequence. In fact, even if you weren't a

> parent but still an adult, you could discipline misbehaving kids.

>

> This worked well. "

This is the way it should be. The 'It takes a child to raise a

village' truism. Besides being a deterrant to bad behavior it teaches

children that they are part of society--that there are guidelines

that apply to everyone and a resulting duty to act within the

guidelines of a system, as well as teaching them modesty because they

are not the king of all they survey, merely a subject. Just as they

need discipline in the family to teach them boundaries, security and

how they fit in, they need the larger discipline of the community for

the same reasons but on a larger scale. It is also needed for those

kids who do not have discipline at home or a good family life. Not

allowing other adults and teachers provide discipline is a huge

mistake. It's also creating little monsters who are not answerable to

anyone and who will retaliate if you even try to tell them anything.

I am now afraid of children which is a very ominous sign. I look at

them and see children but then I remember that are not the children

of prior generations and I know what some of them are capable of. I

also wonder what our society willbe like when these children become

adults.