Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

[Guest guest]

Not good enough.

Sitting behind a veil of ignorance on this issue is simply not helpful.

Understand the issue. Speak with intelligence and forthrightness.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Lenny, as you may be aware; I live in the camp in which one is neither convinced nor unconvinced of any connection between vaccines and autism. While I neither defend nor advocate any position except to explore all possibilities I am often criticized by individuals who believe there is such a connection.

Recently I was told that if I loved my child I would not have vaccinated him. It is quite sad that it has come to this in that another parent could say such a thing. While I agree with you that individuals have a right to complain about how any not-for-profit spends its funds, I find it deeply sad that there remains such intolerance in the autism community in that person's indicidual beliefs often are not respected if they differ from some.

I am not sure if we will ever bridge the gap the first step is for tolerance and shifting focus where it belongs and away from other parent's of children with ASD's.

Marty

> > >> > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she said was> > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there> > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then let> > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was toward> > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant. > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a part> > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at least> > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > blending of how to help the kids. > > > > > > Debi> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

If, in fact, 's son is getting better -- please show us instead of just telling us about it! While I might think that would be an invasion of a family's privacy -- I know that and her parents are all over the place publicizing Christian's problems. And of course, we hear from about his wonderful progress. If Christian's progress is real and his grandparents can see it with their own eyes, the family's failure to share it with the autism community would be extremely sad considering how vocal the family has been otherwise. If biomedical treatments are working for Christian, I'm sure we'd all love to see it with our own eyes. Action speaks much louder than words. s_degiusti <blessingsx10@...> wrote: I am sure they are waiting for Christian Genetics testing to come back( I know a Sarcastic remark) Your so right, its been repeated over and over again. Something Rotten in tall cotton with AS and their supporters. In EOHarm , JOE HARRIS` <ccdaddy57@...> wrote:>> when they AS are benefiting from their grand sons pain relief. When > Christian's symptoms are the same as my > sons and they are sitting on that knowledge> and want help any other children. Maybe its >

his stock at GE after all they would not want > it proven their product caused any of this > damage oh! in case you did not know GE> owns a thimerosal facility. If they AS are > in it for the right reason. Then If true science> goes were the evidence leads why want > they share that christian is speaking after > chealation and he is sleeping after pentasin > 6mp after all I thought they were going to > declare war on autism. It seems to me they are > doing what they were created for steering away > from a pharma cause. Its like if you lose your > wallet in the bedroom but you are looking for it> every where but the bed room. It should be all> over the press that Bob 's grand child is > getting better instead they are hiding it from the> public and he should be touting DR.Wakefield> was right and helping out a courageous hero> instead of

letting him be persecuted by a > corrupted system here and abroad.> > > mommiepie2000 <mommiepie2000@...> wrote:> They are millionaires or probably billionaires. They do not get any > money from AS, nor do they need it. This line of thinking makes no > sense to me. I do not understand why they have not come out publicly > like did if their grandson is improving. I do not think money or > power are the reasons. Bob ran gigantic corporations, I don't > think he is bewitched by the $$ & power of AS. > > > >> > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk away from> > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the

$$$$$$$$> > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances with the> > bouncer at the Pearly Gates. > > > >>

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[Guest guest]

Yes, Amber, but you are still looking at toxicity issues and vaccines are just one way to deliver that toxicity to kids, albeit much more directly and in high doses!

Barb

Re: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Autism existed before our current insanely overdone vaccination schedule. If all vaccine- or environmentally- damaged kids out there were healed or recovered, I believe there will still be those who have autism.ASD is currently a catch-all for some definitely genetic disorders (Rett's) and some that don't appear to be genetic at all. I imagine the future will bring about various sub-types of ASDs as well as contributing factors (e.g. q22 deletion syndrome often manifests as autism/ADHD though it is genetic in nature and those parents ARE told not to vaccinate their children because of the syndrome).My son is definitely a case of regressive autism. However, he is very aware of me, attached to me, cuddly, and doesn't like it when I leave him, which are not "typical" autistic traits. I don't believe he is classically autistic, I also am not sure vaccinations were completely at fault. In his case, it seems that the early, high doses of antibiotics and leaky gut (how else can you explain a neonatal infection of e. coli in the bloodstream?) combined with the live attenuated viruses of the MMR played into his regression. I want answers, but I am not prepared to lay the blame solely at the foot of vaccines. I do believe vaccinations have caused damage to countless children, but I also believe there are kids out there who have never been vaccinated who are autistic. It is not coincidental that autism rates in North Dakota are obscenely low with not much of a spike in recent years, but when you overlay a map of Superfund sites and environmentally toxic areas in the US you see corresponding increases in autism rates. I want to see more research, but I want ALL of the bases covered, not just the vaccine ones. My newborn has not and will not see any vaccines if I have anything to say about it, but if she turns out to be autistic (at 4 months old she is already receiving EI services for visual/social issues - doesn't watch faces/make eye contact as much as babies should), then I can hardly blame that on vaccines.AmberEllen Sweeney wrote:

Why would a parent that doesnt agree with what these orgs are doing with the money they raised from other parents want to raise a dime for them?I am personally sick and tired of organizations lik NAAR, AS, CAN and all the other genetic Nazis out there that discount research into environmental causes and do purely genetic research. That call parents like myself who believe their is a connection between the MMR, thimerosal, and vaccines and my childs autism/mercury poisoning "delusional. That call my son's regression after his MMR and sound proof that my child is getting better through chelation "anecdotal".....Org's like AS claim they are "funding global biomedical research into the causes, prevention, treatments, and cure for autism" and theyre NOT.....if theyre duping parents into raising money for them under the guise that theyre doing this type of research, then we as parents have a right to criticize the way they spend money that they bleed out of fellow parents who spend their time and energies raising money for org's lying to them.....I for one have talked yet another parent out of walking for AS this September here in NJ and I am damn proud of it...every dime I deprive them of while insigificant in the grand scheme of things is a victory to me.....If you cant understand this Pamela, well too goddamn bad.....Ellen

[Guest guest]

Henry, buy a clue.

I'm begining to think most who post do so merely because they like

the sound of their voice, and nothing more.

> > > >

> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think

what she

> > said was

> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was

saying is there

> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

using the

> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change

course, then

> > let

> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people,

it was

> > toward

> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

Saying

> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > >

> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

often has

> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.

But, only a

> > part

> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

genetic, at

> > least

> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have

a good

> > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > >

> > > > Debi

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Not good enough? I think yoiu miss the point. You apparently make

an arrogrant presumption about my knowledge and simply reinforce the

point I made.

Marty

> > > >

> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

said was

> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is

there

> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the

> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then

let

> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was

toward

> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying

> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > >

> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has

> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a

part

> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at

least

> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > >

> > > > Debi

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

How does one avoid it? Do we all move to North Dakota or third world

countries? Lord knows our government certainly isn't going to clean up

this country...

jromkema wrote:

Yes, Amber, but you are still looking at toxicity

issues and vaccines are just one way to deliver that toxicity to kids,

albeit much more directly and in high doses!

Barb

[Guest guest]

Lenny, I absolutely agree with you as you state " The discussion and

dissection of Autism Speaks is a good exercise, beyond venting, even if

they contain fellow autism parents. "

I am not shocked by any flack I receive here for my doubts or elsewhere

and that often makes for good discussion once one gets past the anger.

I agree with the cliche " heat, kitchen " . I can take the heat but I may

just move on to other things at this point.

In any event, good luck to all and hopefully we will all find the

answers we are looking for.

Marty

> > > > >

> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

said

> > was

> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is

there

> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using

the

> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

then

> > let

> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was

> > toward

> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

Saying

> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often

has

> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only

a

> > part

> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic,

at

> > least

> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Debi

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Marty,

I just wanted to

say that I appreciate having you on this list because I think you represent a

large community of people neither convinced for or against the vaccine

culpability. I was a parent who saw for my own eyes that the vaccines

were involved completely, but understand that if I hadn’t seen that, I

would not be so strong in my convictions. No one should have told you

that you don’t love your child if you vaccinated him. I would never

tell anyone that, for it’s the most personal decision. But I try

and inform anyone I can of where they can get all sources of information in

order to make their own decisions entirely informed.

As I sit here

with my son while he laughs uncontrollably from yeast overgrowth and is re-watching

Toy Story 2 for the 10, 000th time, I renew my battle for better

investment in treatments and fighting like hell to remove mercury from all

vaccines and where ever else it may be. There are so many avenues to

spend monies for research where Autism is concerned. But the research

monies towards actual treatments to help their physical bodies, is so lacking

it’s criminal.

Are there areas of

interest you have in particular, in regards to the physical nature of autism

for research and how that may be directed towards actual treatments? I

wanted to ask that question to London when I saw him speak but I was too

new to everything and only in absorb mode and thought I was the only one who

thought vaccines destroyed my son’s immune system. Thanks,

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of martinx2us

Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:48

PM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: Wagers for

AS shuting down??

Lenny, as

you may be aware; I live in the camp in which one is neither

convinced nor unconvinced of any connection between vaccines and autism.

While I neither defend nor advocate any position except to explore all

possibilities I am often criticized by individuals who believe there

is such a connection.

Recently I

was told that if I loved my child I would not have vaccinated him. It is

quite sad that it has come to this in that another parent could say such a

thing. While I agree with you that individuals have a right to complain about

how any not-for-profit spends its funds, I find it deeply sad that there

remains such intolerance in the autism community in that person's indicidual

beliefs often are not respected if they differ from some.

I am not

sure if we will ever bridge the gap the first step is for tolerance and

shifting focus where it belongs and away from other parent's of children with

ASD's.

Marty

> > >

> > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

said was

> > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is

there

> > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the

> > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then

let

> > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was toward

> > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

Saying

> > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > >

> > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has

> > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a

part

> > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at

least

> > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > >

> > > Debi

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If you impose healthcare on an individual by fiat, you are a medical fascist. Plain and simple. In violation of international medical protocols, etc. It's called the Nuremberg code for a reason, somewhat related to the term used. Suggest you revisit your history.

After causing damage from that imposed healthcare, to lie about it, and to conduct misinformation campaigns (in the form of much of the genetic research in this area) is to add insult to injury.

Especially given the fact that the kids need help.

I thought Batts was your name, not your thought process.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Henry, buy a clue.I'm begining to think most who post do so merely because they like the sound of their voice, and nothing more.> > > >> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she> > said was> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then> > let> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was> > toward> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > >> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a> > part> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at> > least> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > >> > > > Debi> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

No, I don't.

It almost appears as if your posts are an apology for NAAR's overreliance on a misapplied genetic solution to the problem at hand (which is primarily immunological and toxicological in nature).

Although genetic research would be appropriate, for example, for developing an assay which might be used to identify biomarkers and assays based upon same for those children who might be at risk for the vaccine protocol, relying on genetics in the first instance represents an attempt at a post hoc rationalization of what is essentially a biomedical problem caused by toxicity and immune dysfunction in an inadequately tested vaccine protocol injected into countless immature immune systems.

Of course, genetics has its value. Its just not the value that NAAR either ascribes to it or practices it.

I would be much less critical of NAAR if I saw more honesty in the research they do in the genetics area. Their research appears to be an attempt to deflect blame from a defective vaccine protocol using genetics as a red herring to gull the masses.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Not good enough? I think yoiu miss the point. You apparently makean arrogrant presumption about my knowledge and simply reinforce thepoint I made.Marty> > > >> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what shesaid was> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying isthere> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, thenlet> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it wastoward> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > >> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only apart> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, atleast> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > >> > > > Debi> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I completely understand where you are coming from. You certainly not alone in your thinking of your child. That is exactly why I never dismiss a parent when they have a strong belief about something.

I could not agree more with you that "...the research monies towards actual treatments to help their physical bodies, is so lacking it's criminal." I desperately want to see more money go towards research into that area. But we also need to encourage more researchers to submit grants in those areas.

While I am sure all the research grants funded by AS meet the definition of being scientifically valid, I hardly believe all of them are of much value. Of course I do not know what pool AS had to choose from but I wish there were more meaningful projects to fund.

Without sounding like a broken record, we can talk about what we want but we need to have researchers submit such proposals. I think that is where we need to put some collective energy going forward.

Marty

> > > >> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she said was> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then let> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was toward> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant. > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a part> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at least> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > blending of how to help the kids. > > > > > > > > Debi> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

A person who contends that a vaccinated child is an unloved child is analogous to the doctors who refuse to accept familes as patients if the parents refuse to vaccinate.

Completely inappropriate, but perhaps necessary to fight the propaganda.

Real informed consent based upon honest information would hopefully go a long way toward putting an end to this madness.

RE: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Marty,

I just wanted to say that I appreciate having you on this list because I think you represent a large community of people neither convinced for or against the vaccine culpability. I was a parent who saw for my own eyes that the vaccines were involved completely, but understand that if I hadn’t seen that, I would not be so strong in my convictions. No one should have told you that you don’t love your child if you vaccinated him. I would never tell anyone that, for it’s the most personal decision. But I try and inform anyone I can of where they can get all sources of information in order to make their own decisions entirely informed.

As I sit here with my son while he laughs uncontrollably from yeast overgrowth and is re-watching Toy Story 2 for the 10, 000th time, I renew my battle for better investment in treatments and fighting like hell to remove mercury from all vaccines and where ever else it may be. There are so many avenues to spend monies for research where Autism is concerned. But the research monies towards actual treatments to help their physical bodies, is so lacking it’s criminal.

Are there areas of interest you have in particular, in regards to the physical nature of autism for research and how that may be directed towards actual treatments? I wanted to ask that question to London when I saw him speak but I was too new to everything and only in absorb mode and thought I was the only one who thought vaccines destroyed my son’s immune system. Thanks,

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of martinx2usSent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:48 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Lenny, as you may be aware; I live in the camp in which one is neither convinced nor unconvinced of any connection between vaccines and autism. While I neither defend nor advocate any position except to explore all possibilities I am often criticized by individuals who believe there is such a connection.

Recently I was told that if I loved my child I would not have vaccinated him. It is quite sad that it has come to this in that another parent could say such a thing. While I agree with you that individuals have a right to complain about how any not-for-profit spends its funds, I find it deeply sad that there remains such intolerance in the autism community in that person's indicidual beliefs often are not respected if they differ from some.

I am not sure if we will ever bridge the gap the first step is for tolerance and shifting focus where it belongs and away from other parent's of children with ASD's.

Marty

> > >> > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she said was> > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there> > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then let> > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was toward> > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant. > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a part> > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at least> > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > blending of how to help the kids. > > > > > > Debi> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

If I may clarify a few points. First NAAR is no longer an organization. They were merged into Autism Speaks last year. Second contrary to your assertion, NAAR never did any research. They only funded pilot grants from a list of submissions.

NAAR was started by a group of parents who saw a need to do something. Clearly you disagree with what hey did and see a need in a different direction so why not start an organization that can accomplish what you see as the need today. I don't see how simply criticizing NAAR over and over gets you to where you want to go.

Needles to say I disagree with your conclusion notwithstanding the mis-statement about NAAR doing research that "Their research appears to be an attempt to deflect blame from a defective vaccine protocol using genetics as a red herring to gull the masses."

There was no conspiracy just a legitimate difference of opinion on how to obtain the answers. But, it is OK we can agree to disagree on this point.

Marty

> > > > >> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she> said was> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is> there> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then> let> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was> toward> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > >> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a> part> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at> least> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > >> > > > > Debi> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I wonder who Germans used as a nonpalliative comparisons back in the

thirties and forties as the nazis took power. I can see this

argument happening in front of a sausage shop:

Person 1: " This Hitler guy is like Genghis Khan! " .

Person 2: " That's an offensive comparison " .

Person 1: " But he wants to invade other countries, expand the master

race and exterminate humans. That Mengele is doing inhumane medical

expiriments on people. These guys are like Vlad the Impaler! " .

Person 2: " You shouldn't hyperbolize " .

Of course evil in this country is fragmented, can no longer be

performed quite as overtly at home and is not personified by just a

few individuals, it's harder to grasp and characterize, but those

forces are always there in every society and must always be guarded

against. There are quite a few valid comparisons to present

conditions in the U.S. and the Third Reich. Inhumane medical

expirimentation on people (the fragmented version in the form of

untested and dangerous drugs and vaccines going to market) is of

course one. The growing use of psychiatric drugs which facilitate

acts of disassociated violence was another (the Luftwaffe and Hitler

took the equivalent of " ADHD " drugs. Not kidding: cross

search " Hitler " and " methamphetamine " ). Another is that the Third

Reich developed a " psychiatric state " - a state-determined format for

what constituted " mental deficiencies " . Of course fanatic

nationalism and jingoistic bigotry were considered shining mental

health. If you look at Bush's " New Freedom Commission " and plans to

screen the population for " mental health " and drug as many people as

possible at the behest of the APA and psychopharm.

If you can actually read the details of proposed social programs for

monitering the public which are getting underway, it certainly does

resemble fascism in places. But not Vlad the Impaler. That's going

too far!

> > > > >

> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think

> what she

> > > said was

> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was

> saying is there

> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

> using the

> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change

> course, then

> > > let

> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people,

> it was

> > > toward

> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

> Saying

> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

> often has

> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.

> But, only a

> > > part

> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

> genetic, at

> > > least

> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have

> a good

> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Debi

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I would disagree with " perhaps necessary to fight the propaganda. " I

don't believe it is ever appropriate to say such a thing to a parent.

There are better and more productive ways to make a point.

Marty

> > > >

> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

said was

> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is

there

> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the

> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then

let

> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was

toward

> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying

> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > >

> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has

> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a

part

> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at

least

> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > >

> > > > Debi

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Very valid statements. I too would

like to understand how some of these research ideas are set up. Maybe

some of our political actions should be gathering scientists together to look

at the things we already know are going on in our kid’s bodies.

Actually there is already a ton of science out there maybe what we need is a

group to gather together everything already out there and start piecing

everything together instead of just starting with new disjointed studies

replicating what’s already out there. If you have not yet looked at

Natasa’s paper on calcium channelopathy, you can view it here

http://www.autismcalciumchannelopathy.com/

She took existing published papers and

brought them together in a paper outlining what she believes is an underlying

factor in Autism. It’s a wonderful paper.

We need to join with other organizations

who are looking at toxicity as plausible causes in numerous disorders and

diseases. As a community it might be beneficial of us to develop a

business plan in where we decide what the necessary science needs are for us

and then going about finding those independent science institutions to write a

proposal and parameters. Then we can find the money to fund them.

The only problem with all of this is time. -

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of martinx2us

Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:00

AM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: Wagers for

AS shuting down??

I completely understand where you are coming from. You certainly not

alone in your thinking of your child. That is exactly why I never

dismiss a parent when they have a strong belief about something.

I

could not agree more with you that " ...the research monies

towards actual treatments to help their physical bodies, is so lacking

it's criminal. " I desperately want to see more money go

towards research into that area. But we also need to encourage more

researchers to submit grants in those areas.

While

I am sure all the research grants funded by AS meet the definition of being

scientifically valid, I hardly believe all of them are of much value. Of

course I do not know what pool AS had to choose from but I wish there

were more meaningful projects to fund.

Without

sounding like a broken record, we can talk about what we want but we need to

have researchers submit such proposals. I think that is where we need to

put some collective energy going forward.

Marty

> > > >

> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what

she said was

> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying

is there

> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

using the

> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

then let

> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it

was toward

> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her

intent. Saying

> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > >

> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

often has

> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But,

only a part

> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

genetic, at least

> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a

good

> > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > >

> > > > Debi

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Nice post.

A lot of us live in a “biomed bubble” and forget sometimes that there are millions of people who think there is no connection between autism and vaccines/mercury/thimerosal/heavy metals, etc.

On 7/3/07 10:34 AM, " Chap 'n Ali " <chapnalli@...> wrote:

Marty,

I just wanted to say that I appreciate having you on this list because I think you represent a large community of people neither convinced for or against the vaccine culpability. I was a parent who saw for my own eyes that the vaccines were involved completely, but understand that if I hadn’t seen that, I would not be so strong in my convictions. No one should have told you that you don’t love your child if you vaccinated him. I would never tell anyone that, for it’s the most personal decision. But I try and inform anyone I can of where they can get all sources of information in order to make their own decisions entirely informed.

As I sit here with my son while he laughs uncontrollably from yeast overgrowth and is re-watching Toy Story 2 for the 10, 000th time, I renew my battle for better investment in treatments and fighting like hell to remove mercury from all vaccines and where ever else it may be. There are so many avenues to spend monies for research where Autism is concerned. But the research monies towards actual treatments to help their physical bodies, is so lacking it’s criminal.

Are there areas of interest you have in particular, in regards to the physical nature of autism for research and how that may be directed towards actual treatments? I wanted to ask that question to London when I saw him speak but I was too new to everything and only in absorb mode and thought I was the only one who thought vaccines destroyed my son’s immune system. Thanks,

[Guest guest]

MY five cents worth...cleaning the mercury out of my 30+ son got rid of his OCD, even an older child /person can be made clearer in the brain. Me included... Nora G

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Marty,There is a growing camp of people who believe, based on the evidencealready at hand, that there is a vaccine connection to autism. Thegrowth of this list is one indicator. Among this group you will finda spectrum of tolerance or intolerance towards those who are perceivedas mercury apologists or towards those who are perceived as seekingrefuge from conviction in being undecided.When I say, for example, that I have seen my son damaged from vaccinesbefore my eyes, and am told in response by someone from your camp thatI am not to be believed, I just might get a little pissed. Or I mightget downright angry.When I am say that my son has dramatically improved from poisonreducing treatments, and am told in response, that it is probably aplacebo effect, I just might get a little pissed. Or I might getdownright angry.Only a small percentage of list members actually post to this list,most lurk. So who knows for sure what the group think really is. Donot be so shocked that you catch some flack here for your doubts. The discussion and dissection of Autism Speaks is a good exercise,beyond venting, even if they contain fellow autism parents. I believethe focus will shift away from bashing the organization eventually. But their mistakes deserve exposure to make room for competition. Imay not think much of Autism Speaks' agenda, but they are not the oneswho put dirty vaccines into my son's body. They are not main "theenemy", even if accessories after the fact.I cannot moderate the level of tolerance here, but I can as host tryto encourage an atmosphere polite discourse. No guarantees, so thinkcliche, heat, kitchen.Lenny> > > >> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she said> was> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then> let> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was> toward> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > >> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a> part> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at> least> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > >> > > > Debi> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I understand your points about NAAR and the fact that they do not do lab bench research, they merely fund lab bench research. That's a fair distinction, although the ultimate result is the same.

I believe that NAAR started off well-intentioned, if somewhat addled, due to a misplaced emphasis on genetics for a poorly understood/misunderstood disease state. It represented the best temporal evidence (if you can call it that) of a disease state that grew out of a psychiatric misdiagnosis (Kanner) and evolved into a genetic disease (in a minority of instances, it actually is a genetic disease). At least they closed the Frigidaire behind them.

Perhaps due to institutional or professional bias, or simply bureaucratic inertia (or lack thereof), NAAR, which merged into Autism Speaks, appears to still call the shots with respect to the allocation of research dollars and continues to devote outsized research dollars to the area they know best, but which will provide the fewest answers for the kids already damaged- genetic research.

A large portion of the donor base of Autism Speaks would for liability reasons continue to support the misguided perambulations of the NAAR/Autism Speaks emphasis on genetics. It conveniently continues to support this approach because it allows them to circle jerk the actual cause of autism ad infinitum. Perhaps unsurprisingly, just like defendants in a typical lawsuit.

NAAR/Autism Speaks feels like they are actually doing something, while the donors feed their misguided emphasis. It appears to be no more than bureaucratic bungling on NAAR's/Autism Speaks' part, opportunity on the part of the donors. The sharks simply smell a fish. Rather than eat the fish, they prefer to keep the fish alive.

That is not to suggest there is a conspiracy here. A requirement of a conspiracy is that parties are knowledgeable enough to form a conspiracy. In this case they are not. Rather, NAAR/Autism Speaks blathers on and on about research in the genetics area, which, because their scientific and professional backgrounds and bias require them to continue to do so and because they are otherwise completely ill-suited to actually identifying and dealing with the physiological conditions and disease states caused by the vaccine protocol in the children.

The donor base continues to feed the fish as the fish plays Where's Wally with the research grants and research goals.

Why would anyone upset the applecart here?

They wouldn't- except that the EOH-Killer Bees have identified their next target.

Stay tuned.

I don't think there is a conspiracy at all- with respect to the some

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

If I may clarify a few points. First NAAR is no longer an organization. They were merged into Autism Speaks last year. Second contrary to your assertion, NAAR never did any research. They only funded pilot grants from a list of submissions.

NAAR was started by a group of parents who saw a need to do something. Clearly you disagree with what hey did and see a need in a different direction so why not start an organization that can accomplish what you see as the need today. I don't see how simply criticizing NAAR over and over gets you to where you want to go.

Needles to say I disagree with your conclusion notwithstanding the mis-statement about NAAR doing research that "Their research appears to be an attempt to deflect blame from a defective vaccine protocol using genetics as a red herring to gull the masses."

There was no conspiracy just a legitimate difference of opinion on how to obtain the answers. But, it is OK we can agree to disagree on this point.

Marty

> > > > >> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she> said was> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is> there> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then> let> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was> toward> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > >> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a> part> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at> least> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > >> > > > > Debi> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I agreed that that is too harsh.

But I can see why they do it.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

I would disagree with "perhaps necessary to fight the propaganda." Idon't believe it is ever appropriate to say such a thing to a parent. There are better and more productive ways to make a point.Marty> > > >> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what shesaid was> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying isthere> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, thenlet> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it wastoward> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > >> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only apart> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, atleast> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good> > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > >> > > > Debi> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

What would call a scheme to force vaccination on babies without informed consent using highly toxic solutions which are inadequately tested in violation of the Nuremberg code?

It ain't duck-duck-goose!

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

I wonder who Germans used as a nonpalliative comparisons back in the thirties and forties as the nazis took power. I can see this argument happening in front of a sausage shop:Person 1: "This Hitler guy is like Genghis Khan!".Person 2: "That's an offensive comparison".Person 1: "But he wants to invade other countries, expand the master race and exterminate humans. That Mengele is doing inhumane medical expiriments on people. These guys are like Vlad the Impaler!".Person 2: "You shouldn't hyperbolize". Of course evil in this country is fragmented, can no longer be performed quite as overtly at home and is not personified by just a few individuals, it's harder to grasp and characterize, but those forces are always there in every society and must always be guarded against. There are quite a few valid comparisons to present conditions in the U.S. and the Third Reich. Inhumane medical expirimentation on people (the fragmented version in the form of untested and dangerous drugs and vaccines going to market) is of course one. The growing use of psychiatric drugs which facilitate acts of disassociated violence was another (the Luftwaffe and Hitler took the equivalent of "ADHD" drugs. Not kidding: cross search "Hitler" and "methamphetamine"). Another is that the Third Reich developed a "psychiatric state"- a state-determined format for what constituted "mental deficiencies". Of course fanatic nationalism and jingoistic bigotry were considered shining mental health. If you look at Bush's "New Freedom Commission" and plans to screen the population for "mental health" and drug as many people as possible at the behest of the APA and psychopharm. If you can actually read the details of proposed social programs for monitering the public which are getting underway, it certainly does resemble fascism in places. But not Vlad the Impaler. That's going too far! > > > > >> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think > what she> > > said was> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was > saying is there> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been > using the> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change > course, then> > > let> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, > it was> > > toward> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. > Saying> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > >> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money > often has> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. > But, only a> > > part> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% > genetic, at> > > least> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have > a good> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > >> > > > > Debi> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

" As a community it might be beneficial of us to develop a business

plan in where we decide what the necessary science needs are for us

and then going about finding those independent science institutions

to write a proposal and parameters. Then we can find the money to

fund them. "

You are an amazing woman and that is a GREAT idea baby.

('s worser half)

> > > > >

> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what

she said

> was

> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying

is there

> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

using the

> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

then let

> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it

was toward

> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

Saying

> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

often has

> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But,

only a

> part

> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

genetic, at

> least

> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a

good

> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Debi

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

MArty,

To answer your question I wouldnt and I havent.....I have been

called an " antivaccine

Nazi " ..I have been questioned about how I could so easily discount

the benefits of America's " wonderful vaccination program " ........But

in reality, my views arise from experience and I feel my experience

has made me wiser in regards to vaccines than the general population

and most pediatricians.....I tend not to believe the things I am

spoon fed by others who hide behind medical degrees, titles and

their roles in pharmaceutical companies, and the powers that be that

sit on the boards of autism organizations that are turning their

backs on participating in all realms of autism research to avoid

conflicts with their donors and those who provide their advertising

revenues and funding for their big fat pensions.

I question vaccination because the idea of a government mandating

poisons being injected into children and adults to me is

insane.....some people call it medical experimentation because of the

lack of safety research before the vaccines are approved by the

FDA....and I have heard numerous people that are part of the

antivaccines movement compare the US's vaccine mandates to that of

NAzi Germany....do I agree?.....Maybe....but like our conversation

before its my opinion and I am entitled to it.

So to sum it up.....I dont give a damn what others think about me or

my views.....call me a Nazi call me whatever...come to think of it,

Ive been called worse....

Ellen

Ellen

> > > > >

> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what

she

> > > said was

> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is

> > there

> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using

> > the

> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

> > then

> > > let

> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it

was

> > > toward

> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

Saying

> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often

> > has

> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But,

only

> > a

> > > part

> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic,

> > at

> > > least

> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a

good

> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Debi

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

They are ill-informed and we must inform them.

Re: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Hey ,Nice post.A lot of us live in a “biomed bubble” and forget sometimes that there are millions of people who think there is no connection between autism and vaccines/mercury/thimerosal/heavy metals, etc.On 7/3/07 10:34 AM, "Chap 'n Ali" <chapnalliverizon (DOT) net> wrote:

Marty, I just wanted to say that I appreciate having you on this list because I think you represent a large community of people neither convinced for or against the vaccine culpability. I was a parent who saw for my own eyes that the vaccines were involved completely, but understand that if I hadn’t seen that, I would not be so strong in my convictions. No one should have told you that you don’t love your child if you vaccinated him. I would never tell anyone that, for it’s the most personal decision. But I try and inform anyone I can of where they can get all sources of information in order to make their own decisions entirely informed. As I sit here with my son while he laughs uncontrollably from yeast overgrowth and is re-watching Toy Story 2 for the 10, 000th time, I renew my battle for better investment in treatments and fighting like hell to remove mercury from all vaccines and where ever else it may be. There are so many avenues to spend monies for research where Autism is concerned. But the research monies towards actual treatments to help their physical bodies, is so lacking it’s criminal. Are there areas of interest you have in particular, in regards to the physical nature of autism for research and how that may be directed towards actual treatments? I wanted to ask that question to London when I saw him speak but I was too new to everything and only in absorb mode and thought I was the only one who thought vaccines destroyed my son’s immune system. Thanks,

[Guest guest]

GE also manufactures vaccines for countries overseas.

Definite conflict there.....his buddies at GE might ignore him at the

country club if he speaks the truth....we cant have that can we?

Ellen

> > >

> > > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk

away from

> > > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the

$$$$$$$$

> > > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances

with the

> > > bouncer at the Pearly Gates.

> > >

> > >

> >

>