Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

[Guest guest]

, I couldn't agree with you more. The back and forth nature of this debate for the most part has taken us away from the real issues going forward, and specifically how do we get the research that we so desperately need to help our kids, and by our kids I mean our own children who are affected and all the children to come who will be affected if we can't figure this out. Your comment from earlier: We need to join with other organizations who are looking at toxicity as plausible causes in numerous disorders and diseases. As a community it might be beneficial of us to develop a business plan in where we decide what the necessary science needs are for us and then going about finding those independent science institutions to write a proposal and parameters. Then we can find the money to fund them. The only problem with all of this is

time. - I couldn't agree more! The AS list is incredibly disappointing, but who knows if they ever got 'real research' proposals. It would be great if we as a community could get together and say: we need these studies, and then go petition/ hound respected commission institutions to write proposals and research methodologies and develop budgets. We'll raise the money if we have a specific goal and if we're united. Marie Chap 'n Ali <chapnalli@...>

wrote: Henry, I agree with you most often but in this case I don’t see how this has gotten so unruly. Marty may have defended NAAR, we most certainly don’t have to agree with that stance, but I didn’t really see an AS butt kissing going on in his posts. I thought I put out a good question/suggestion earlier and was waiting for a response, instead more posturing. I

like both of you from what responses and queries I’ve seen, and am not defending anything so please don’t bring down the gauntlet on me for saying this but, “PLAY NICE”! Remember I’ve been watching Toy Story all day. - From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of martinx2usSent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 5:56 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down?? That's a good one. I do however find your reply laughable. Howpathetic to write " Believe me, you don't f__k with the moms of EOH."Believe as you wish.Marty> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I thinkwhat> she> > > > said was> > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she wassaying> is> > > > there> > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been> using the> > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't changecourse,> then> > > > let> > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people,it> was> > > > toward> > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't

her intent.> Saying> > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money> often has> > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.But,> only a> > > > part> > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> genetic, at> > > > least> > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll havea> good> > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > >

> >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------\> ------> > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> >>

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

I apologize for perhaps misreading your intentions.

There seems to be an inconsistency in some of your presentation for which I probe.

It may simply be that you are trying to find answers.

If it is simply a function of meeting a burden, which we have not met, that is fine.

But to me, there is a measure of defense of AS, for which we see no defense.

A failure to comprehend that toxins will produce toxicity and vaccines could produce immunological reactions, coupled with a quasi defense of AS, breeds some measure of distrust in me.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

That's a good one. I do however find your reply laughable. Howpathetic to write " Believe me, you don't f__k with the moms of EOH."Believe as you wish.Marty> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I thinkwhat> she> > > > said was> > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she wassaying> is> > > > there> > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been> using the> > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't changecourse,> then> > > > let> > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people,it> was> > > > toward> > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.> Saying> > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money> often has> > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.But,> only a> > > > part> > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> genetic, at> > > > least> > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll havea> good> > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------\> ------> > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> >>

[Guest guest]

I am not sure about the inconsistency but I agree I am always looking

for answers. There is no failure to me to comphrehend that " ...that

toxins will produce toxicity and vaccines could produce immunological

reactions, " The question I have and care for is whether that will

cause autism. I know some can't accept that I remain open to that

question but that is how I feel.

I read this board to see what many think. In betweent the spats we or

some seem to have at times there is interesting information set forth on

this list. Even if I don't agree with it all, I still want to try to

undersatnd it.

I agree I am defensive about NAAR in its early days but I am not a

cheerleader for AS nor do I want to even try to change anyones mind

regarding how they feel about AS. I certainaly don't agree with

everything written on this board about AS but that does not mean I

support all they do either.

Having some measure of mistrust in me is OK - that I am not offended at

all.

Have a happy fouth of July.

Marty

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think

> what

> > she

> > > > > said was

> > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was

> saying

> > is

> > > > > there

> > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

> > using the

> > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change

> course,

> > then

> > > > > let

> > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people,

> it

> > was

> > > > > toward

> > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her

intent.

> > Saying

> > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

> > often has

> > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.

> But,

> > only a

> > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

> > genetic, at

> > > > > least

> > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll

have

> a

> > good

> > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Debi

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------\

> > ------

> > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

> > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think he bought into a mess that is difficult to extricate oneself from, kind of like buying into a swamp, and trying to convince others that it is a worthwhile investment, so that he can recoup some of his investment. Well, with some of us, this isn't working at all. AS is a mess, and I can't see why anyone would want to direct their dollars there, to fund their useless research projects. All they are doing is funding research into ways for undoing the damage other factors may have caused, such as vaccines and mercury in various forms. Good luck with that! They'll never even get close to a "cause", because they still refuse to study the possible causes which have been put forward by parents, i.e., the possibility of environmental causes. Aasa mommiepie2000 <mommiepie2000@...> wrote: Ok, follow me here.... Bob is not a young man. He has had a successful career for decades. I assume he was paid handsomely. I assume he has other sources of income (cash reserves, other stocks, private retirement plans, lots of houses all over the world, etc). Is he really selling his soul ( & his family) for GE's retirement package? > > >> > > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk away from> > > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the $$$$$$$$> > > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances with the> > > bouncer at the Pearly Gates. > > > > > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more. I'm still looking for any signs of integrity

with Bob and Suzanne . How do they sleep at night? How do they

look themselves in the mirror in the morning? When one achieves this

level of financial status, are there Integrity Services out there that

they contract with who send people in to do these things for these

kind of people? Kinda like a spiritual Escort Service that

specializes in character trait brainwashing?

> > > > >

> > > > > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk

> > away from

> > > > > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the

> > $$$$$$$$

> > > > > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances

> > with the

> > > > > bouncer at the Pearly Gates.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

"I read this board to see what many think."

What is your purpose on this website then?

Why do you care what people on this website think?

For whose benefit, other than your own, is your involvement with this site?

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

I am not sure about the inconsistency but I agree I am always lookingfor answers. There is no failure to me to comphrehend that "...thattoxins will produce toxicity and vaccines could produce immunologicalreactions," The question I have and care for is whether that willcause autism. I know some can't accept that I remain open to thatquestion but that is how I feel.I read this board to see what many think. In betweent the spats we orsome seem to have at times there is interesting information set forth onthis list. Even if I don't agree with it all, I still want to try toundersatnd it.I agree I am defensive about NAAR in its early days but I am not acheerleader for AS nor do I want to even try to change anyones mindregarding how they feel about AS. I certainaly don't agree witheverything written on this board about AS but that does not mean Isupport all they do either.Having some measure of mistrust in me is OK - that I am not offended atall.Have a happy fouth of July.Marty> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think> what> > she> > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was> saying> > is> > > > > there> > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been> > using the> > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change> course,> > then> > > > > let> > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people,> it> > was> > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't herintent.> > Saying> > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money> > often has> > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.> But,> > only a> > > > > part> > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> > genetic, at> > > > > least> > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'llhave> a> > good> > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > ------> > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I think I have said enough on this topic already. Perhaps the better

question is why do you seem to care care so much about this? It is

time to move on.

If these questions are so important to you why not take a group survey

of all the members and then you can analyze the data and publish your

results.

I think we all have better things to do,

Marty

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think

> > what

> > > she

> > > > > > said was

> > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was

> > saying

> > > is

> > > > > > there

> > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have

been

> > > using the

> > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change

> > course,

> > > then

> > > > > > let

> > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward

people,

> > it

> > > was

> > > > > > toward

> > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her

> intent.

> > > Saying

> > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant

money

> > > often has

> > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.

> > But,

> > > only a

> > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

> > > genetic, at

> > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll

> have

> > a

> > > good

> > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Debi

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------\

> > > ------

> > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

> > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Your evasion is noted.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

I think I have said enough on this topic already. Perhaps the betterquestion is why do you seem to care care so much about this? It istime to move on.If these questions are so important to you why not take a group surveyof all the members and then you can analyze the data and publish yourresults.I think we all have better things to do,Marty> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think> > what> > > she> > > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was> > saying> > > is> > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who havebeen> > > using the> > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change> > course,> > > then> > > > > > let> > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't towardpeople,> > it> > > was> > > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her> intent.> > > Saying> > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grantmoney> > > often has> > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.> > But,> > > only a> > > > > > part> > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> > > genetic, at> > > > > > least> > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll> have> > a> > > good> > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > > ------> > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

The reason why I care is that it is imperative to try to keep the debate honest on this website. The debate here must remain uncorrupted, because the debate in most other forums, and in particular, the public domain has become completely corrupted.

Separate agendas, detected from motivation, are important to reference bias and perspective.

That is all.

But the query still stands.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

I think I have said enough on this topic already. Perhaps the betterquestion is why do you seem to care care so much about this? It istime to move on.If these questions are so important to you why not take a group surveyof all the members and then you can analyze the data and publish yourresults.I think we all have better things to do,Marty> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think> > what> > > she> > > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was> > saying> > > is> > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who havebeen> > > using the> > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change> > course,> > > then> > > > > > let> > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't towardpeople,> > it> > > was> > > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her> intent.> > > Saying> > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grantmoney> > > often has> > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.> > But,> > > only a> > > > > > part> > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> > > genetic, at> > > > > > least> > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll> have> > a> > > good> > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > > ------> > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

>> If we collectively as Parents of Autistic Children present to AS a legitimate project and follow the grant >submission process and protocol and the funds are then denied then I will join in on railing against AS >as a shill and a front for evil forces.>> Chris

I'm just wondering if there is a mechanism for looking at the studies/proposals that Autism Speaks has denied funding for? I would guess they get a fair number of grant requests that they deem unworthy. Do we know of any? What areas of study have they already rejected? Maybe if we knew the answers to these questions, and a few others I can't think of right now, we could save the time and effort of submitting a grant to a predetermined outcome.

I would rather donate to an independent study anyway.

Harry H.See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Uncorrupted or only as you see it? In any intellectually honest debate all sides are vetted for a good discussuion.

Here is an idea, look at the last 200 posts you have made and see it word "bias" comes to mind. "b: an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment "

Seriousely, this is a group discussion list. The rule here are fair and simple as Lenny has denoted a few times already.

Duly noted that your last round of question still remain. Are we done yet with this topic?

Marty

> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think> > > what> > > > she> > > > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was> > > saying> > > > is> > > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have> been> > > > using the> > > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change> > > course,> > > > then> > > > > > > let> > > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward> people,> > > it> > > > was> > > > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her> > intent.> > > > Saying> > > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant> money> > > > often has> > > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.> > > But,> > > > only a> > > > > > > part> > > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> > > > genetic, at> > > > > > > least> > > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll> > have> > > a> > > > good> > > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > > > ------> > > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Sorry for posting so late, but I need to touch upon the Nazi theme

here...how about the Autism Genome Project, part of the Human Genome Project

currently being superfunded?

At the Autism Society of North Carolina's recent conference, one of the

geneticists presented with a power point showing slides of " NORMAL " genetic

structures and " autistic " genetic structures repeatedly. They are not even

trying to be PC here, folks! When I questioned the honest scientist

presenting (and I say honest because he summed up his talk by saying they

had not found very much to date!), he explained the slides did not originate

from him, but many scientists around the country share these presentations.

Hmmm, did they originate from COLD SPRING HARBOR? I see AS in bed with

them: do you remember PR pics of Bob & Suzanne visiting this historical

place? This laboratory's infamous history has been spoken of in past posts

on this list. Check it out!

>From: Aasa <penas7ar@...>

>Reply-EOHarm

>EOHarm

>Subject: Re: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

>Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:46:42 -0400 (EDT)

>

>Marty,

> While I can understand your being repulsed by Ellen's reference to

> " Nazi's " in this regard, I can also totally understand her using Nazis as a

>reference point with what is going on with vaccines these days. Here our

>governments are (both in the US and in Canada), trying to convince us of

>the genetic basis for several neurological " disorders " . If one follows the

> " science " , the actual science, not what is delivered to us in the

>mainstream news, one may think differently. If any of us were sit down and

>do even a bit of research on the Internet, it would not take long to

>unearth information contrary to what some of our countries are telling us.

>Those epidemiological studies which originated in Scandinavia are full of

>holes. Worse, some were conducted by researchers who worked for the SSI,

>Staten Serum Institut, i.e., the local vaccine manufacturer/provider.

> While no-one has acknowledged what has happened with children nowadays,

>I would not be surprised to read years from now, if I am still alive, that

>this comes near to another holocaust, but this time it is an assault on

>children with various vaccines and drugs that have gone awry.

>

> Aasa

>

>martinx2us <martyx2@...> wrote:

>

>Ellen what I can understand is that your " Nazi " reference is repulsive

>and has no place on any autism list.

>

>Marty

>

>

> > > >

> > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

> > said was

> > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there

> > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the

> > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then

> > let

> > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was

> > toward

> > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying

> > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > >

> > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has

> > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a

> > part

> > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at

> > least

> > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > >

> > > > Debi

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

http://liveearth.msn.com

[Guest guest]

So, Happy 4th of July right back at you: one more thought, I can't resist:

how can we not be speaking out about Autism Speaks, when they support

funding for research by people who deny we have a pandemic? And they

support funding for research by people who will report it may be just as

easy to avoid autism as it is Down's?

Alison , mother to 3 boys mutated and injured by MERCURY in Rhogam in

utero and out.

>From: " Alison " <helloknitty@...>

>Reply-EOHarm

>EOHarm

>Subject: Re: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

>Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:58:23 -0400

>

>Sorry for posting so late, but I need to touch upon the Nazi theme

>here...how about the Autism Genome Project, part of the Human Genome

>Project

>currently being superfunded?

>

>At the Autism Society of North Carolina's recent conference, one of the

>geneticists presented with a power point showing slides of " NORMAL " genetic

>structures and " autistic " genetic structures repeatedly. They are not even

>trying to be PC here, folks! When I questioned the honest scientist

>presenting (and I say honest because he summed up his talk by saying they

>had not found very much to date!), he explained the slides did not

>originate

>from him, but many scientists around the country share these presentations.

>

>Hmmm, did they originate from COLD SPRING HARBOR? I see AS in bed with

>them: do you remember PR pics of Bob & Suzanne visiting this historical

>place? This laboratory's infamous history has been spoken of in past posts

>on this list. Check it out!

>

> >From: Aasa <penas7ar@...>

> >Reply-EOHarm

> >EOHarm

> >Subject: Re: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

> >Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:46:42 -0400 (EDT)

> >

> >Marty,

> > While I can understand your being repulsed by Ellen's reference to

> > " Nazi's " in this regard, I can also totally understand her using Nazis as

>a

> >reference point with what is going on with vaccines these days. Here our

> >governments are (both in the US and in Canada), trying to convince us of

> >the genetic basis for several neurological " disorders " . If one follows

>the

> > " science " , the actual science, not what is delivered to us in the

> >mainstream news, one may think differently. If any of us were sit down

>and

> >do even a bit of research on the Internet, it would not take long to

> >unearth information contrary to what some of our countries are telling

>us.

> >Those epidemiological studies which originated in Scandinavia are full of

> >holes. Worse, some were conducted by researchers who worked for the SSI,

> >Staten Serum Institut, i.e., the local vaccine manufacturer/provider.

> > While no-one has acknowledged what has happened with children

>nowadays,

> >I would not be surprised to read years from now, if I am still alive,

>that

> >this comes near to another holocaust, but this time it is an assault on

> >children with various vaccines and drugs that have gone awry.

> >

> > Aasa

> >

> >martinx2us <martyx2@...> wrote:

> >

> >Ellen what I can understand is that your " Nazi " reference is repulsive

> >and has no place on any autism list.

> >

> >Marty

> >

> >

> > > > >

> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

> > > said was

> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is there

> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using the

> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course, then

> > > let

> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was

> > > toward

> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent. Saying

> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often has

> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only a

> > > part

> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic, at

> > > least

> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Debi

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>_________________________________________________________________

>http://liveearth.msn.com

>

_________________________________________________________________

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! 

http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2

[Guest guest]

The AGP project was a carryover of a flawed NAAR project, one in which I

voted against at the time but it went forward as it was Andy Shih's pet

project. Apparently he had plenty of free time to lobby and fool other

board members into thinking this was a worthwhile investment.

Perhaps the only point I could agree with Andy was that even if the

project found nothing it is valuable in knowing that. The problem is

that while it is true that any definitive finding positive or negative

is valuable, given the limited resources, money should be spent where it

is most productive.

There are many institutions around the world working on AGP. I am not

sure exactly what slides you are referring to but your reference to Cold

Spring Harbor and AS is a stretch.

Marty

> > > > >

> > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what she

> > > said was

> > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying is

there

> > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been using

the

> > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

then

> > > let

> > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it was

> > > toward

> > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

Saying

> > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > >

> > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money often

has

> > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But, only

a

> > > part

> > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33% genetic,

at

> > > least

> > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a good

> > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Debi

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> http://liveearth.msn.com

>

[Guest guest]

" I am not sure exactly what slides you are referring to but your

reference to Cold Spring Harbor and AS is a stretch " .

Nothing is a stretch in The Land of Make Believe, Marty...

The Land where safe is dangerous and common sense is lost.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what

she

> > > > said was

> > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying

is

> there

> > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

using

> the

> > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

> then

> > > > let

> > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it

was

> > > > toward

> > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

> Saying

> > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

often

> has

> > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But,

only

> a

> > > > part

> > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

genetic,

> at

> > > > least

> > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a

good

> > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Debi

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > _________________________________________________________________

> > http://liveearth.msn.com

> >

>

[Guest guest]

So true!!

Marty

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think what

> she

> > > > > said was

> > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was saying

> is

> > there

> > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have been

> using

> > the

> > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change course,

> > then

> > > > > let

> > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward people, it

> was

> > > > > toward

> > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her intent.

> > Saying

> > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant money

> often

> > has

> > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place. But,

> only

> > a

> > > > > part

> > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%

> genetic,

> > at

> > > > > least

> > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll have a

> good

> > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Debi

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > _________________________________________________________________

> > > http://liveearth.msn.com

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Absolutely not.

I wonder if anyone else sees my point.

Fw: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Uncorrupted or only as you see it? In any intellectually honest debate all sides are vetted for a good discussuion.

Here is an idea, look at the last 200 posts you have made and see it word "bias" comes to mind. "b: an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment "

Seriousely, this is a group discussion list. The rule here are fair and simple as Lenny has denoted a few times already.

Duly noted that your last round of question still remain. Are we done yet with this topic?

Marty

> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think> > > what> > > > she> > > > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was> > > saying> > > > is> > > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have> been> > > > using the> > > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change> > > course,> > > > then> > > > > > > let> > > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward> people,> > > it> > > > was> > > > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her> > intent.> > > > Saying> > > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant> money> > > > often has> > > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.> > > But,> > > > only a> > > > > > > part> > > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> > > > genetic, at> > > > > > > least> > > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll> > have> > > a> > > > good> > > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > > > ------> > > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

http://www.autismspeaks.org/sponsoredevents/cold_spring_harbor_awards.php

> > >

> > > Sorry for posting so late, but I need to touch upon the Nazi theme

> > > here...how about the Autism Genome Project, part of the Human

> Genome

> > Project

> > > currently being superfunded?

> > >

> > > At the Autism Society of North Carolina's recent conference, one

> of

> > the

> > > geneticists presented with a power point showing slides

> of " NORMAL "

> > genetic

> > > structures and " autistic " genetic structures repeatedly. They are

> not

> > even

> > > trying to be PC here, folks! When I questioned the honest

> scientist

> > > presenting (and I say honest because he summed up his talk by

> saying

> > they

> > > had not found very much to date!), he explained the slides did not

> > originate

> > > from him, but many scientists around the country share these

> > presentations.

> > >

> > > Hmmm, did they originate from COLD SPRING HARBOR? I see AS in bed

> with

> > > them: do you remember PR pics of Bob & Suzanne visiting this

> > historical

> > > place? This laboratory's infamous history has been spoken of in

> past

> > posts

> > > on this list. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

Look, I admit I'm very biased on this issue

That's because I believe I know the truth and I'm a forceful advocate for that position.

My positions are basically consistent with the philosphical leanings of this group which are based on the book Evidence of Harm, which provides, as its main tenet/thesis, that highly toxic levels of mercury in vaccines are strongly implicated in the autism epidemic, the group's understanding of recent history and the personal experiences of most who actually their children deteriorate after the administration of vaccines.

Most, not all, of my posts are highly reasoned.

If you don't think so I'm more than comfortable with that- you also don't see a thimerosal/vaccine/autism connection.

Fw: Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Uncorrupted or only as you see it? In any intellectually honest debate all sides are vetted for a good discussuion.

Here is an idea, look at the last 200 posts you have made and see it word "bias" comes to mind. "b: an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment "

Seriousely, this is a group discussion list. The rule here are fair and simple as Lenny has denoted a few times already.

Duly noted that your last round of question still remain. Are we done yet with this topic?

Marty

> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I think> > > what> > > > she> > > > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she was> > > saying> > > > is> > > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who have> been> > > > using the> > > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't change> > > course,> > > > then> > > > > > > let> > > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward> people,> > > it> > > > was> > > > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her> > intent.> > > > Saying> > > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant> money> > > > often has> > > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a place.> > > But,> > > > only a> > > > > > > part> > > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than 33%> > > > genetic, at> > > > > > > least> > > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then you'll> > have> > > a> > > > good> > > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > > > ------> > > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

and I were talking about these research projects last night

and how we as a group here could make a difference as opposed to

tilting at the AS windmill.

I see a lot of discussion on " wasted research dollars " that AS does,

but on the flip side I have not seen one example of a research

project that we want, that was presented by a credible

scientist/doctor in the formal grantwriting process that has been

turned away. Perhaps this has happened and I do not know about them?

So what Alli and I were talking about is collectively identifying

those Doctor's and Scientists that are looking for funding in the

areas of our interests, and as a group sheparding them through the

formal grantwriting and submission process with AS.

So that being said what Doctor's/Scientist's do we know that are

wanting to do studies in our interest that we can assist to get

funding from AS?

If we collectively as Parents of Autistic Children present to AS a

legitimate project and follow the grant submission process and

protocol and the funds are then denied then I will join in on railing

against AS as a shill and a front for evil forces.

Chris

> > > >

> > > > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk

> away from

> > > > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the

> $$$$$$$$

> > > > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances

> with the

> > > > bouncer at the Pearly Gates.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Condider this. You believe you believe you know the truth and I

believe I don't know the truth about what causes autism. Why is that

so hard for you to accept?

Based upon your writings I believe you are understatimng you position

when saying " that highly toxic levels of mercury in vaccines are

strongly implicated in the autism epidemic. " That statement implies

some unknown as well as the fact there is room for other explanations.

It is OK for us to see things differnently.

Marty

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, I

think

> > > > what

> > > > > she

> > > > > > > > said was

> > > > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took she

was

> > > > saying

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > there

> > > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those who

have

> > been

> > > > > using the

> > > > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can't

change

> > > > course,

> > > > > then

> > > > > > > > let

> > > > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward

> > people,

> > > > it

> > > > > was

> > > > > > > > toward

> > > > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her

> > > intent.

> > > > > Saying

> > > > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant

> > money

> > > > > often has

> > > > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have a

place.

> > > > But,

> > > > > only a

> > > > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than

33%

> > > > > genetic, at

> > > > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, then

you'll

> > > have

> > > > a

> > > > > good

> > > > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Debi

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------\

> > > > > ------

> > > > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

> > > > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I believe that is a very logical and worthwhile approach.

Marty

> > > > >

> > > > > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk

> > away from

> > > > > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the

> > $$$$$$$$

> > > > > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances

> > with the

> > > > > bouncer at the Pearly Gates.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I applaud you for doing something positive- good luck!

On 7/4/07 10:10 AM, " chapdoggy " <chris@...> wrote:

and I were talking about these research projects last night

and how we as a group here could make a difference as opposed to

tilting at the AS windmill.

I see a lot of discussion on " wasted research dollars " that AS does,

but on the flip side I have not seen one example of a research

project that we want, that was presented by a credible

scientist/doctor in the formal grantwriting process that has been

turned away. Perhaps this has happened and I do not know about them?

So what Alli and I were talking about is collectively identifying

those Doctor's and Scientists that are looking for funding in the

areas of our interests, and as a group sheparding them through the

formal grantwriting and submission process with AS.

So that being said what Doctor's/Scientist's do we know that are

wanting to do studies in our interest that we can assist to get

funding from AS?

If we collectively as Parents of Autistic Children present to AS a

legitimate project and follow the grant submission process and

protocol and the funds are then denied then I will join in on railing

against AS as a shill and a front for evil forces.

Chris

> > > >

> > > > If Bob and Suzanne had any integrity they would walk

> away from

> > > > AS and expose the group for what it really is. Oh, but the

> $$$$$$$$

> > > > seems to get in the way. Maybe they are taking their chances

> with the

> > > > bouncer at the Pearly Gates.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

For anyone unfamiliar with Cold Springs Harbor's history. I found

this article I pasted partially below.

That picture makes me sick of Bob and Suzanne accpeting medals

from that place.

It is beyond my copmprehension that Autism Speaks would have any

association with a faciltiy with such a reprehensible past.

That association alone makes me certain AS stands for nothing good.

Learning from History: Long Island's Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory,

Long Island Business News,

Apr 7, 2006

by Harrell

They dreamed of a master race, free of the swarthy and feeble minded,

untainted by the blind, the deaf or the orphaned. It was to be an

ideal society of the well born, bred racially pure, intellectually

superior and physically fit.

This wasn't Hitler's Third Reich. It was Long Island's Cold Spring

Harbor Laboratory, circa 1920.

As the birthplace of the American eugenics movement, Cold Spring

Harbor would be the wellspring for laws that led to the forced

sterilization of more than 60,000 Americans. Over the course of three

decades, Cold Spring Harbor zealots led a national move for fitter

families and lobbied for the most restrictive immigration laws in our

country's history.

Today one of the most respected centers of genetic research in the

world, Cold Spring Harbor's darker past begins in 1898 when the

eminent scientist Davenport assumed its helm.

A sort of summer camp for scientists, Cold Spring Harbor had been

founded eight years before as a rural outpost where scientists could

observe marine and land-based wildlife. Darwin's theory of

evolution was still fresh, and biologists such as Davenport liked to

reproduce survival of the fittest scenarios through experiments with

plants and animals.

Davenport also became a member of the American Breeders Association,

a group created in 1903 to produce the best farm products, whether

animal or vegetable. A year later, he convinced a foundation

established by Carnegie to bankroll The Station for

Experimental Evolution at Cold Spring Harbor, the lab's first foray

into human genetics.

At some point, people said the natural thing: If we're building the

fastest racehorse or the best-yielding corn, why can't we apply these

principals to human beings? says Micklos, director of the Dolan

DNA Learning Center, the public education arm of Cold Spring Harbor

Laboratory.

Darwin's cousin, Sir Franics Galton, coined the term eugenics in

1883. Meaning well-born, it describes the science of creating a

better human race. In one form, practiced predominantly in Europe,

eugenics concerned itself with selective breeding to produce better

humans. The American version, however, focused on vacuuming the gene

pool, controlling reproduction of the dark-skinned and dim-witted who

would contaminate the America population.

It was a popular idea at the time. Fears were widespread that the

country was being overwhelmed by waves of immigrants, threatening to

drown out the northern Europeans who dominated the upper echelons of

society.

Scientists were also deeply involved in the study of the mentally

ill, and the progressive movement that emerged at the turn of the

century taught America that smart policy could cure social ills such

as poverty. Given the potent combination of cultural sentiment and

the new frontier of evolution and genetics, it's clear why eugenics

appealed to so many.

At the time, it seemed right and progressive to a lot of people,

including presidents such as Teddy Roosevelt and noted people such as

Graham Bell, Micklos said. These were well-intentioned

people.

But, he adds, Bad things aren't always done by bad people. It can be

you and me.

Deep pockets

In 1910, Davenport coaxed more money out of another captain of

industry - this time the family of Harriman, a Hempstead

native who had built a railroad empire in the 1800s - to establish

the Eugenics Record Office, a repository of knowledge about the

subject.

Davenport tapped Harry Laughlin, a crusading high school teacher from

Missouri, to run the new bureau, situated next door in Cold Spring

Harbor. Davenport focused more keenly on the science, while Laughlin

served as the proselytizer.

Governments, he believed, backed by genetic science, could weed out

the less desirable elements of American society and eventually purify

it.

Presidents agreed, prominent scientists did, too, and foundations

endowed by extremely wealthy Americans gave the Laughlin group money

to further its research.

Laughlin wrote model legislation, passed in 18 states and upheld by

the U.S. Supreme Court, allowing states to sterilize feebleminded

people deemed unfit to reproduce. The Nazis relied loosely on

Laughlin's model to create their own law, leading to the

sterilization of more than 350,000 Europeans in the 1930s and into

the '40s.

In 1924, Laughlin testified before an eager Congress in support of

America's most sweeping immigration law, restricting the entry of

Italians, Asians and Jews. And the work of Laughlin and his Cold

Spring Harbor colleagues led to the passage or reinforcement of state

laws barring interracial marriage.

The 1927 Supreme Court decision, in which Oliver Wendell Holmes

justified sterilization by declaring that three generations of

imbeciles is enough, has never been overturned.

Researchers flocked to Long Island to learn the latest techniques.

During a 30-year span, Davenport, Laughlin and company amassed a

trove of articles, studies and family histories to bolster their

theories about why America's gene pool was becoming increasingly

corrupted. The Eugenics Records Office sponsored Fitter Families

competitions at state fairs, where families vied to see who had the

best pedigree.

Continues:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4189/is_20060407/ai_n16188002

>

>

http://www.autismspeaks.org/sponsoredevents/cold_spring_harbor_awards.

php

>

[Guest guest]

It is.

It's just that on this issue my personal experience has been that generally bright people who could understand this and who have read enough to understand deny the connection only to corrupt the issue. I have yet to find someone who really doesn't believe a connection exists.

Without exception.

You may be the first.

Re: Wagers for AS shuting down??

Condider this. You believe you believe you know the truth and Ibelieve I don't know the truth about what causes autism. Why is thatso hard for you to accept?Based upon your writings I believe you are understatimng you positionwhen saying "that highly toxic levels of mercury in vaccines arestrongly implicated in the autism epidemic." That statement impliessome unknown as well as the fact there is room for other explanations.It is OK for us to see things differnently.Marty> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > As one who was never involved in NAAR or AS, Ithink> > > > what> > > > > she> > > > > > > > said was> > > > > > > > > > > > not arrogant or mean-spirited. What I took shewas> > > > saying> > > > > is> > > > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been enough progress and if those whohave> > been> > > > > using the> > > > > > > > > > > > research money in a certain direction can'tchange> > > > course,> > > > > then> > > > > > > > let> > > > > > > > > > > > someone else. IMO, her statement wasn't toward> > people,> > > > it> > > > > was> > > > > > > > toward> > > > > > > > > > > > answers. She even came back & said it wasn't her> > > intent.> > > > > Saying> > > > > > > > > > > > answers need to be found isn't to me arrogant.> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I totally understand what your saying that grant> > money> > > > > often has> > > > > > > > > > > > stipulations attached and genetic does have aplace.> > > > But,> > > > > only a> > > > > > > > part> > > > > > > > > > > > of the place. As I've said before, no more than33%> > > > > genetic, at> > > > > > > > least> > > > > > > > > > > > 33% environmental, and 33% behavioral, thenyou'll> > > have> > > > a> > > > > good> > > > > > > > > > > > blending of how to help the kids.> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Debi> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------\> > > > > ------> > > > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?> > > > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>