Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 , I suspect you should e-mail the Geiers. Aren't they the genetic experts.? Kirby <dkirby@...> wrote: I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is a lot of info on it. Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin’ study on cell death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal. “In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al., 1975). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000), and in cell culture conditions it was shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985).” His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts: “Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage” “We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal.” Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the “spontaneous” mutations mentioned in the study? Thanks DK 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Search movie showtime shortcut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 , I suspect you should e-mail the Geiers. Aren't they the genetic experts.? Kirby <dkirby@...> wrote: I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is a lot of info on it. Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin’ study on cell death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal. “In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al., 1975). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000), and in cell culture conditions it was shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985).” His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts: “Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage” “We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal.” Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the “spontaneous” mutations mentioned in the study? Thanks DK 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Search movie showtime shortcut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal exposure] could be related to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in the study? " The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood that thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified in this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion. Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is > a lot of info on it. > > Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin' study on cell > death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal. > > " In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which > then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al., > 1975 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BLAIR- ETAL-1 > 975#BLAIR-ETAL-1975> Go). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane > and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#FERRAT- ETAL- > 2002#FERRAT-ETAL-2002> Go;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BEN- OZER-ETA > L-2000#BEN-OZER-ETAL-2000> Go), and in cell culture conditions it was > shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below > 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#SCHURZ- ETAL- > 2000#SCHURZ-ETAL-2000> Go). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the > concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#MAGOS- ETAL-1 > 985#MAGOS-ETAL-1985> Go). " > > His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell > cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts: > > " Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage " > " We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts > after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells > were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these > experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all > cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. > The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells > were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the > concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal. " > > > Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the " spontaneous " > mutations mentioned in the study? > Thanks > DK > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal exposure] could be related to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in the study? " The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood that thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified in this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion. Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is > a lot of info on it. > > Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin' study on cell > death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal. > > " In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which > then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al., > 1975 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BLAIR- ETAL-1 > 975#BLAIR-ETAL-1975> Go). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane > and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#FERRAT- ETAL- > 2002#FERRAT-ETAL-2002> Go;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BEN- OZER-ETA > L-2000#BEN-OZER-ETAL-2000> Go), and in cell culture conditions it was > shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below > 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#SCHURZ- ETAL- > 2000#SCHURZ-ETAL-2000> Go). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the > concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985 > <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#MAGOS- ETAL-1 > 985#MAGOS-ETAL-1985> Go). " > > His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell > cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts: > > " Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage " > " We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts > after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells > were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these > experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all > cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. > The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells > were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the > concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal. " > > > Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the " spontaneous " > mutations mentioned in the study? > Thanks > DK > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 , It's dissent, not hate. Rhodoprion makes a point, I mean, rhodopsin1. However, IMO The editors and reviewers at the journal Science haven't done jack for our kids except to sow complacency for the autism epidemic by closing ranks in defense of mercury. Let them produce more than facil alibis. Lenny EOHarm list co-host > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal > exposure] > > could be related to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in the > > study? " > > > > The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most > > prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood > that > > thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified > in > > this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion. > > > > Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just > > how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic > > researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Rhodopsin, By this time, many of us have lost faith in "creditable" medical journals. They publish what they will, according to their own agendas. The BMJ has become less accessible to us commoners/campaigners. The Lancet also stinks, partly thanks to the stupid letter that its editor apparently sent to Mike Stanton about Mark Geier's qualifications/background. That was totally unprofessional! Aasarhodopsin1 <rhodopsin1@...> wrote: Kirby asked, "Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal exposure] could be related to the "spontaneous" mutations mentioned in the study?"The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood that thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified in this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion.Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue.>> I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is> a lot of info on it.> > Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin' study on cell> death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal.> > "In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which> then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al.,> 1975> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BLAIR-ETAL-1> 975#BLAIR-ETAL-1975> Go). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane> and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#FERRAT-ETAL-> 2002#FERRAT-ETAL-2002> Go;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BEN-OZER-ETA> L-2000#BEN-OZER-ETAL-2000> Go), and in cell culture conditions it was> shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below> 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#SCHURZ-ETAL-> 2000#SCHURZ-ETAL-2000> Go). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the> concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#MAGOS-ETAL-1> 985#MAGOS-ETAL-1985> Go)."> > His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell> cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts:> > "Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage"> "We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts> after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells> were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these> experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all> cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. > The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells> were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the> concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal."> > > Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the "spontaneous"> mutations mentioned in the study?> Thanks> DK> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I think he was trying to out you as one of those nasty genetic researchers. Why hasn't anyone asked you for your relationship with Autism Speaks? Heidi From: " Hooker" <brian@...>Reply-EOHarm To: EOHarm Subject: Re: Mercury and DNADate: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:44:33 -0000 I'm sure that rhodopsin1 was feeling nothin' but love when he used my name in such a sarcastic way...> > >> > > Kirby asked, "Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal > > exposure] > > > could be related to the "spontaneous" mutations mentioned in the > > > study?"> > > > > > The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most > > > prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood > > that > > > thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified > > in > > > this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion.> > > > > > Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just > > > how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic > > > researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue.> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed Type in thimerosal mutagenicity. Thimerosal is a known mutagen. Re: Mercury and DNA Kirby asked, "Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal exposure] could be related to the "spontaneous" mutations mentioned in the study?"The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood that thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified in this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion.Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue.>> I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is> a lot of info on it.> > Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin' study on cell> death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal.> > "In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which> then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al.,> 1975> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BLAIR-ETAL-1> 975#BLAIR-ETAL-1975> Go). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane> and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#FERRAT-ETAL-> 2002#FERRAT-ETAL-2002> Go;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BEN-OZER-ETA> L-2000#BEN-OZER-ETAL-2000> Go), and in cell culture conditions it was> shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below> 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#SCHURZ-ETAL-> 2000#SCHURZ-ETAL-2000> Go). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the> concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#MAGOS-ETAL-1> 985#MAGOS-ETAL-1985> Go)."> > His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell> cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts:> > "Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage"> "We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts> after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells> were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these> experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all> cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. > The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells> were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the> concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal."> > > Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the "spontaneous"> mutations mentioned in the study?> Thanks> DK> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed Type in thimerosal mutagenicity. Thimerosal is a known mutagen. Re: Mercury and DNA Kirby asked, "Can anyone tell me if this [thimerosal exposure] could be related to the "spontaneous" mutations mentioned in the study?"The editors and reviewers at the journal Science, one of the most prestigious research journals in the world, know the likelihood that thimerosal was the cause of the spontaneous mutations identified in this study. They thought it didn't warrant discussion.Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher and would seem qualified to explain this issue.>> I have been looking at the mutagenic properties of mercury, and there is> a lot of info on it.> > Specifically, this is from the intro to Baskin' study on cell> death from exposure to nanomolars of thimerosal.> > "In the body, ethylmercury can be converted to inorganic mercury, which> then preferentially accumulates in the kidneys and brain (Blair et al.,> 1975> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BLAIR-ETAL-1> 975#BLAIR-ETAL-1975> Go). Inorganic mercury is known to induce membrane> and DNA damage (Ferrat et al., 2002> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#FERRAT-ETAL-> 2002#FERRAT-ETAL-2002> Go;Ben-Ozer et al., 2000> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#BEN-OZER-ETA> L-2000#BEN-OZER-ETAL-2000> Go), and in cell culture conditions it was> shown to be mutagenic and generate DNA breaks in concentrations below> 500 nM (Schurz et al., 2000> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#SCHURZ-ETAL-> 2000#SCHURZ-ETAL-2000> Go). Ethylmercury can significantly increase the> concentration of inorganic mercury in many organs (Magos et al., 1985> <http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/2/361#MAGOS-ETAL-1> 985#MAGOS-ETAL-1985> Go)."> > His study likewise found that thimerosal caused DNA breaks in cell> cultures of human neurons and fibroblasts:> > "Detection of Thimerosal-Induced DNA Damage"> "We used TUNEL to detect DNA breaks generated in neurons and fibroblasts> after 6 h of incubation with thimerosal. Following incubation, the cells> were fixed, labeled by TUNEL, and counterstained by DAPI, which in these> experiments was employed as a fluorescent DNA marker to visualize all> cell nuclei in fixed cell cultures. > The results of these experiments demonstrate that TUNEL-positive cells> were detected in ALL cell cultures after 6 h of incubation, up to the> concentration of 2 µM of thimerosal."> > > Can anyone tell me if this could be related to the "spontaneous"> mutations mentioned in the study?> Thanks> DK> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Dear " rodopsin1 " , Forthright people that have a problem with anything I post usually address their objections to me and provide evidence (at a minimum, peer-reviewed journal references) that supports their differences with what I have stated. Since you have provided NO such references proving that preconceptual and/or prenatal exposure to Thimerosal or mercury CANNOT cause the " spontaneous " mutations being observed, then, as I stated, it is scientifically POSSIBLE that such exposures may be a cause. As a true scientist, I am bound to accept the possibility of any logical cause and effect relationship (e.g., treating men, women and pregnant women with a known mutagen [Thimerosal] that metabolizes into " tissue- bound inorganic mercury, " another mutagen, may cause mutations: a. in sperm and/or the egg or b. at an early stage in fetal development that could give rise to the " spontaneous " mutations being reporterd. As I intimated, I do not think that the probability of the later option (during early fetal development) is very high. In addition, I did not even attempt guess the probability for a viable sperm or egg mutation from the father's or mother's prior exposure to Thimerosal(mercury) [exposures occuring at some time before conception]. Let me be perfectly clear, not bound by " geneticists' orthodoxy, " I understand that all things in science that are " possible " cannot be dismissed simply because the current view of science does not " believe " that certain environ- mental toxins, like Thimerosal or mercury, can cause the " spontaneous " mutations that are being observed. As a scientist, I must accept all rational options as being possible until someone can prove they are not possible. Thus, your unsupported statements as to what " you " think the " editors and reviewers at the journal Science, ..., know, " or do NOT know, carries NO weight with me -- NO pun intended. Moreover, your " [m]aybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that scenario is " ADMITS that it is a POSSIBLE scenario. Thus, based on your own words, you are agreeing with me that the scenario broached by Kirby as a question and answered by me as a " possibility " is POSSIBLE though you believe that it is " totally unlikely. " Hopefully, to support your position, you will provide peer-reviewed published articles that have PROVEN that it is NOT possible for mercury or Thimerosal to affect the sperm or egg to cause these " spontaneous " mutations as well as similar citations that prove that it is impossible for Thimerosl or mercury to cause mutations in early cell division of the fertilized embryo like those being observed. If you CANNOT provide such evidence, then please refrain from posts such as these, which appear to be ONLY an attempt to stir up discord rather than to provide meaningful commentary. Respectfully, Dr. King http://www.dr-king.com PS: In general, I subscribe to Dr. Hooker's reality and do NOT attack those who are truly working to find the root cause(s) of the harm that is being done and either eliminate it (or them) OR minimize its (or their) effects so that the rate for DSM autism will return to the 1 to 2 in 10,000 from whence it came or, if possible, cease to exist -- goals that you do not seem to share. Moreover, when I find what appears to be a factual error, I generally cite the evidence on which my difference of view is based -- hopefully, you will do the same in the future. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ At 00:15 3/18/07 -0000, rhodopsin1 wrote: > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in >the study? " > >The editors and reviewers at the journal >Science, one of the most prestigious research >journals in the world, know the likelihood >that thimerosal was the cause of the >spontaneous mutations identified in >this study. They thought it didn't >warrant discussion. > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Beautifully put, Dr. King... I don't have to talk " sense " into any such folks as honorable as you and Mr. Kirby. Tom Hoaglund's (aka rhodopsin1 aka rhoprion) feeble attempt at some bizarre " divide and conquer " tactic involving the 3 of us as protagonists, has failed miserably. Somewhere, his best friend Ad Hominem is weeping softly. > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > >the study? " > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > >spontaneous mutations identified in > >this study. They thought it didn't > >warrant discussion. > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher > >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 The members of EoH hold a fervent belief in an unsupported hypothesis that thimerosal is the cause of autism. They deride Autism Speaks for funding a genomic study published in Nature Genetics that does not support the thimerosal hypothesis. They claim it's a waste of time and money, because they already know it's the thimerosal. A study in the journal Science finds spontaneous CNVs in some autistics. The study doesn't support vaccines as the culprit. Rather it highlights a genetic, prenatal cause that yet again leaves thimerosal out in the cold. In a rush to undermine the study, the EoH experts suggest that thimerosal is a mutagen and so therefore it's possible that the real cause of the findings are thimerosal induced CNVs. Let's examine that possibility. It means that thimerosal elegantly cleves and duplicates DNA in several specific genotypes that cause different autism phenotypes. If small doses of thimerosal can so easily cause mutagenesis and/or aneuploidy related autism, it means that thimerosal is also likely a cause of most every genetic disorder known to man as well as the cause of spontaneous abortions due to viability issues. It means that the fathers were dosed with thimerosal within 72 days of conception. It means that Fredrick Wellman, the subject of Dan Olmstead's recent article, had a very weird mercury fetish that lasted for at least 14 years after he stopped working with the substance. It means that mothers are likely carrying stockpiles of mutated eggs as the result of their childhood vaccinations. It means that epidemiologists have missed a causal association that rivals smoking and lung cancer. Meanwhile the EoH spin cycle starts. Soon Kirby is sniffing around to look for mileage. And so, when I suggest that maybe Dr. Hooker can save you from yourselves, he remains silent. And instead, Dr. King asks me to prove a negative by providing references that eliminate thimerosal as the possible mutagenic culprit. Dr. King does say that he doubts thimerosal is the cause. Well, that's good. Cause while anything is possible not everything is probable. > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > >the study? " > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > >spontaneous mutations identified in > >this study. They thought it didn't > >warrant discussion. > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher > >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 hello..you ,who will are remaining nameless... you believe that lead posioning when ingested by young children causes mental retardation. you agree don't you? right? then why is it so hard for you to believe that mercury.. the deadliest toxin known to mankind.. when injected into the nervous systems can cause autism and other issues? why are you defending thimerosol? don't be insulting my intelligence and all others here. I know my son.. I know what happened after his vaccines. LiaAOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Why do you bother wasting your time here then? We SHOULD be irrelevant you, why aren't we? > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > >the study? " > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher > > >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 > > The members of EoH hold a fervent belief in an unsupported hypothesis [. . .] Your point here starts out with a fallacious device: there is no such collective straw man that you have attempted to build, lumping us all together under one set of polarized beliefs. Perhaps if you start your observations with honest constructions, some of us on the EoHarm list might take your intentions as made in good faith. You could start out by signing your work. Who are you? Lenny Izak's dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Because you are trying to hold legitimate research ransom. Because my tax dollars are being wasted on an NIH trial for chelation. Because when my son was diagnosed someone " trying to help " insisted that our son had been poisoned and that we had to chelate him immediately or we were failing him. Because a local DAN supporter insisted we read a ridiculous book about vaccines producing hallucinogenic tree frog venom in children with autism. Because vaccination rates are declining to levels that leave everyone susceptible to preventable and nasty diseases. The problem is so bad here in my community that the local school system had to suspend thousands of students until they received their vaccinations. Because children have died in serving the view that autism is poisoning that can be reversed. > > > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > > >the study? " > > > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 > > > > > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study? " > > > > > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Rhodopsin http://www.autism-hub.co.uk/ This is the link for Nitwits Anonymous, you will be welcomed there. > > > > > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study? " > > > > > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Just to let you know I have been very successfully chelating my child with a DAN doctor. My child has had no negative reactions to chelation. He used to not talk, now he does talk. He used to not sleep through the night, and now he sleeps well. He used to run around crazy hyper active, now he is calm and can sit and do his schoolwork. He used to never look at me, now he likes to look at me. Chelation has been used safely and successfully for years. Maybe you should go to the Autism Research Institutes website and see how many parent feel chelation benefitted their children. Maybe you should watch some videos of children recovered from autism (AKA MERCURY POISONING). Open your eyes! --- rhodopsin1 <rhodopsin1@...> wrote: > Because you are trying to hold legitimate research > ransom. > > Because my tax dollars are being wasted on an NIH > trial for > chelation. > > Because when my son was diagnosed someone " trying to > help " insisted > that our son had been poisoned and that we had to > chelate him > immediately or we were failing him. > > Because a local DAN supporter insisted we read a > ridiculous book > about vaccines producing hallucinogenic tree frog > venom in children > with autism. > > Because vaccination rates are declining to levels > that leave everyone > susceptible to preventable and nasty diseases. The > problem is so bad > here in my community that the local school system > had to > suspend thousands of students until they received > their vaccinations. > > Because children have died in serving the view that > autism is > poisoning that can be reversed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study? " > > > > > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely > that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic > researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. http://videogames./platform?platform=120121 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 My son is doing very well with chelation also- and no side effects. Also- I’m so sick of people using that poor child’s death as an example of how chelation is dangerous. It was human error- they gave him the wrong bag. More children die from vaccine reactions then chelation- but no one wants to talk about THAT. On 3/19/07 7:22 PM, " Fund " <susan_fund@...> wrote: Just to let you know I have been very successfully chelating my child with a DAN doctor. My child has had no negative reactions to chelation. He used to not talk, now he does talk. He used to not sleep through the night, and now he sleeps well. He used to run around crazy hyper active, now he is calm and can sit and do his schoolwork. He used to never look at me, now he likes to look at me. Chelation has been used safely and successfully for years. Maybe you should go to the Autism Research Institutes website and see how many parent feel chelation benefitted their children. Maybe you should watch some videos of children recovered from autism (AKA MERCURY POISONING). Open your eyes! --- rhodopsin1 <rhodopsin1@... <mailto:rhodopsin1%40> > wrote: > Because you are trying to hold legitimate research > ransom. > > Because my tax dollars are being wasted on an NIH > trial for > chelation. > > Because when my son was diagnosed someone " trying to > help " insisted > that our son had been poisoned and that we had to > chelate him > immediately or we were failing him. > > Because a local DAN supporter insisted we read a > ridiculous book > about vaccines producing hallucinogenic tree frog > venom in children > with autism. > > Because vaccination rates are declining to levels > that leave everyone > susceptible to preventable and nasty diseases. The > problem is so bad > here in my community that the local school system > had to > suspend thousands of students until they received > their vaccinations. > > Because children have died in serving the view that > autism is > poisoning that can be reversed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study? " > > > > > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely > that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic > researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. http://videogames./platform?platform=120121 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 More kids die from pharmaceuticals made for diseases that are not autism than chelation, secretin or any of the other things that actually work on our kids too. PS, chelation ROCKS. My kid’s metals are reducing with every test. From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of christine Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:34 PM EOHarm Subject: Re: Re: Mercury and DNA My son is doing very well with chelation also- and no side effects. Also- I’m so sick of people using that poor child’s death as an example of how chelation is dangerous. It was human error- they gave him the wrong bag. More children die from vaccine reactions then chelation- but no one wants to talk about THAT. On 3/19/07 7:22 PM, " Fund " <susan_fund > wrote: Just to let you know I have been very successfully chelating my child with a DAN doctor. My child has had no negative reactions to chelation. He used to not talk, now he does talk. He used to not sleep through the night, and now he sleeps well. He used to run around crazy hyper active, now he is calm and can sit and do his schoolwork. He used to never look at me, now he likes to look at me. Chelation has been used safely and successfully for years. Maybe you should go to the Autism Research Institutes website and see how many parent feel chelation benefitted their children. Maybe you should watch some videos of children recovered from autism (AKA MERCURY POISONING). Open your eyes! --- rhodopsin1 <rhodopsin1 <mailto:rhodopsin1%40> > wrote: > Because you are trying to hold legitimate research > ransom. > > Because my tax dollars are being wasted on an NIH > trial for > chelation. > > Because when my son was diagnosed someone " trying to > help " insisted > that our son had been poisoned and that we had to > chelate him > immediately or we were failing him. > > Because a local DAN supporter insisted we read a > ridiculous book > about vaccines producing hallucinogenic tree frog > venom in children > with autism. > > Because vaccination rates are declining to levels > that leave everyone > susceptible to preventable and nasty diseases. The > problem is so bad > here in my community that the local school system > had to > suspend thousands of students until they received > their vaccinations. > > Because children have died in serving the view that > autism is > poisoning that can be reversed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirby asked, " Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the " spontaneous " mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study? " > > > > > > > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal > > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research > > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion. > > > > > > > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby > > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely > that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic > researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. http://videogames./platform?platform=120121 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 The child died from medical error, which is now the most common cause of death in the United States. Much more common than cancer deaths or deaths from cardiovascular disease. Chelation agents have been used successfully for many years from the early 1950's until today with few side effects. That is not to say that errors cannot be made by doctors who use the wrong agent in the wrong way to produce an unfortunate result. That's actually a very common occurrence. Maybe you could ferret out some information on the other 700,000+ deaths which occur each year from medical error. Then report back to the group with your results! Re: Re: Mercury and DNA My son is doing very well with chelation also- and no side effects.Also- I’m so sick of people using that poor child’s death as an example of how chelation is dangerous.It was human error- they gave him the wrong bag.More children die from vaccine reactions then chelation- but no one wants to talk about THAT. On 3/19/07 7:22 PM, " Fund" <susan_fund > wrote: Just to let you know I have been very successfullychelating my child with a DAN doctor. My child has hadno negative reactions to chelation. He used to nottalk, now he does talk. He used to not sleep throughthe night, and now he sleeps well. He used to runaround crazy hyper active, now he is calm and can sitand do his schoolwork. He used to never look at me,now he likes to look at me. Chelation has been usedsafely and successfully for years. Maybe you should goto the Autism Research Institutes website and see howmany parent feel chelation benefitted their children.Maybe you should watch some videos of childrenrecovered from autism (AKA MERCURY POISONING). Openyour eyes!--- rhodopsin1 <rhodopsin1 <mailto:rhodopsin1%40> > wrote:> Because you are trying to hold legitimate research> ransom. > > Because my tax dollars are being wasted on an NIH> trial for > chelation. > > Because when my son was diagnosed someone "trying to> help" insisted > that our son had been poisoned and that we had to> chelate him > immediately or we were failing him. > > Because a local DAN supporter insisted we read a> ridiculous book > about vaccines producing hallucinogenic tree frog> venom in children > with autism. > > Because vaccination rates are declining to levels> that leave everyone > susceptible to preventable and nasty diseases. The> problem is so bad > here in my community that the local school system> had to > suspend thousands of students until they received> their vaccinations. > > Because children have died in serving the view that> autism is > poisoning that can be reversed. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Kirby asked, "Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the "spontaneous" mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study?"> > > > >> > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal> > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research> > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion.> > > > >> > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby> > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely> that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic> researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this> issue.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > __________________________________________________________Be a PS3 game guru.Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.http://videogames./platform?platform=120121 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 my grandson dumped so much lead the last time we tested-during chelation-that I had thoughts to open a pencil factory.Holly Bortfeld <maximom@...> wrote: More kids die from pharmaceuticals made for diseases that are not autism than chelation, secretin or any of the other things that actually work on our kids too. PS, chelation ROCKS. My kid’s metals are reducing with every test. From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of christineSent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:34 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Re: Mercury and DNA My son is doing very well with chelation also- and no side effects.Also- I’m so sick of people using that poor child’s death as an example of how chelation is dangerous.It was human error- they gave him the wrong bag.More children die from vaccine reactions then chelation- but no one wants to talk about THAT. On 3/19/07 7:22 PM, " Fund" <susan_fund > wrote: Just to let you know I have been very successfullychelating my child with a DAN doctor. My child has hadno negative reactions to chelation. He used to nottalk, now he does talk. He used to not sleep throughthe night, and now he sleeps well. He used to runaround crazy hyper active, now he is calm and can sitand do his schoolwork. He used to never look at me,now he likes to look at me. Chelation has been usedsafely and successfully for years. Maybe you should goto the Autism Research Institutes website and see howmany parent feel chelation benefitted their children.Maybe you should watch some videos of childrenrecovered from autism (AKA MERCURY POISONING). Openyour eyes!--- rhodopsin1 <rhodopsin1 <mailto:rhodopsin1%40> > wrote:> Because you are trying to hold legitimate research> ransom. > > Because my tax dollars are being wasted on an NIH> trial for > chelation. > > Because when my son was diagnosed someone "trying to> help" insisted > that our son had been poisoned and that we had to> chelate him > immediately or we were failing him. > > Because a local DAN supporter insisted we read a> ridiculous book > about vaccines producing hallucinogenic tree frog> venom in children > with autism. > > Because vaccination rates are declining to levels> that leave everyone > susceptible to preventable and nasty diseases. The> problem is so bad > here in my community that the local school system> had to > suspend thousands of students until they received> their vaccinations. > > Because children have died in serving the view that> autism is > poisoning that can be reversed. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Kirby asked, "Can anyone tell me if > > > > >this [thimerosal exposure] could be related > > > > >to the "spontaneous" mutations mentioned in > > > > >the study?"> > > > >> > > > >The editors and reviewers at the journal> > > > >Science, one of the most prestigious research> > > > > >journals in the world, know the likelihood > > > > >that thimerosal was the cause of the > > > > >spontaneous mutations identified in > > > > >this study. They thought it didn't > > > > >warrant discussion.> > > > >> > > > >Maybe Dr. Hooker could explain to Kirby> > > > > >and to Dr. King just how totally unlikely> that > > > > >scenario is. Dr. Hooker is a genomic> researcher > > > > >and would seem qualified to explain this> issue.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > __________________________________________________________Be a PS3 game guru.Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.http://videogames./platform?platform=120121 Finding fabulous fares is fun.Let FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 The study doesn't support vaccines as the culprit. > Rather it highlights a genetic, prenatal cause that yet again leaves > thimerosal out in the cold. This could easily be translated into mercury given to mom during preganancy or mothers mercury load affecting the genes leading to genetic prenatal cause so whoever thinks it leaves thimerosal out in the cold is more than ridiculous....... The only problem at all with the thimerosal vaccine causal trip is this.....its just not the ONLY cause of autism, its not the ONLY source of mercury contamination.....it just is not the only heavy metal and chemical compound that is freaking out the bodies of the children. By the way last night I wrote to another autism group this after reading the Discovery article. One very striking piece of evidence many of us have noticed is that when autistic children go in for certaindiagnostic tests and are told not to eat or drink anything ahead of time, parents often report their child¹s symptoms improve-until they start eating again after the procedure. Now if this is really true I will say out loud shouting as loud as I can that it is a crying shame, a tragedy for these kids and their parents, that the medical community is not feeding these kids clay. Mark Sircus Ac., OMDDirector International Medical Veritas Association I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.It has removed 17084 spam emails to date.Paying users do not have this message in their emails.Try SPAMfighter for free now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Can I ask when you started noticing the changes in your son? I started Oral DMPS on my 14 yr old son and we are now on round 7. Teachers are saying that he's a completely different kid than last year, more talkative, more cooperative, trying new things. (He's PDD/NOS.) I've noticed at home he's more social, seems happier, saying more things. Just not sure how much change I should see by now or if it's too early to tell. (Also, does progress seem to accelerate if you add ALA?) Thank you in advance for your input!! Carla In a message dated 3/19/2007 9:05:16 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, kevntimmcd@... writes: Many, many people have commented on his improvement including his teachers, his DAN doctor, friends and family members. He is happy now, and enjoying life. Chelation Therapy and the DAN protocol is without a doubt the best thing we've ever done for him in his 12-1/2 years. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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