Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

[Guest guest]

Only one judge in my mind and that will come eventually no matter the

outcome. But yes she has the right to a fair trial.

I'd also like to say I posted this original message on many lists.

This is the only one where there is any conversation and discussion.

I think that it is very good to discuss this.

I am also hoping that some good comes from this, that did

not die in vain. That folks will identify if they fell this way and

seek support. That communities lacking outlets of support for

families will realize it's needed and too, and most importantly we

will not forget this.

Hopefully this will bring about more than discussion.

Carolyn

>

> " But she still in my mind does need to be charged and

> prosecuted. "

>

> Again, No one is disagreeing. She is unsafe and needs to be

> evaluated..then judged based on that evaluation.

>

> I agree with all that you just said but this was a crime and no one

is

> denying this. What I find very troubling is posts of killing this

> woman as an answer to this crime?

>

> No one here is her judge or jury.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob, Oh no!

This comment was not directed to you in the least. I was refering to

the official hand-wringers who followup on these incidents like the

post from the Illinois chapter of the ASA, which is the initial post

of this thread.

Your compassion and passion for our children and the families is never

in doubt by me, no matter how we may agree or disagree on specific

issues, publicly or privately.

I have told you this privately and I will say here publicly. You are

one of my biggest heroes for all that you do for our children. I

would never try to lecture you on anything and I am most distressed

that you have taken my words in a way never intended.

Bob, I love you and I apologize for not being careful enough in my

words to have caused you injury.

Lenny

>

> " whimpy pandering "

>

> Lenny, give me a break. I do not need to be lectured about standing up

> for our children.

>

> Lenny, I think the tone of your comments in response to my message are

> misplaced and inappropriately extreme. Beyond that I will respond to

> you privately, because I don't think anyone other than you needs to

> see my view of what you have written to me.

>

[Guest guest]

> My own mother used to shake me, slap me, scratch me, scream at me,

> curse at me, etc. When I was five she made me walk on a severely

> injured ankle and when I could not she drug me across the pavement by

> one arm. I hung from the barrel of a shotgun when I was about 9 years

> old begging my father not to murder my mother.

Debi,

This is so painful to hear. I too, come from a family that at times

became abusive, but never anything like you described. My mother and

father loved me and they showed it enough I think, in addition to the

times when things went ugly. It was the love that was there that

saved me. But perhaps this is why I am sensitive to the issue. How

wonderful it would have been for someone to have stood up for us kids

back then. . .

Lenny

[Guest guest]

And I believe for someone who is of right mind that statement is true.

No matter how hard things would get, I would never imagine killing my own

children. There are other options.

But there is such thing as mental illness and seemily normal people suddenly

are NOT in their " right mind "

I am not say that is an excuse --please do not think that, Lenny I see you

point, I do.

And I do NOT know this case, so I am speaking in general.

A woman who could do this --kill her own kids, is certainly not in her right

mind.

Mental illness is REAL.

Mental illness makes people do wrong things, and they have no control over

it.

----- Original Message -----

From: " CG " <gammicca@...>

--snip--

All of our kids are precious and all have

challenges, but too killing your own child shouldn't be an option no

matter how hard it is.

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

History may show that "nanny state" has morphed into "psychonanny state".

Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

> >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes such> >as this tests my beliefs.> >Lenny> >> >> >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, Thesaying goes it > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever> >> >MarlyWho let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists formurder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blameeverything on a negligent nanny government. By the way "it takes a village to raise a child" is a Clintonesecorruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,"it takes a village to raise an orphaned child." Since the modern day"progressive" model for the American family is to have both parentsworking full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning ofchildren is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkeywrench into that brave new world "equality" model.Lenny

[Guest guest]

Mental illness is real It lurks like a thief in the night ready to pounce. This woman IS a doctor, so she has had far better training and understanding of M I 's complexities. This translates into... she also would be very adept at hiding its traits from all around her. This doctor knows all this. She took the Hippocratic oath = first do no harm. Her confession at the hospital clearly indicates rational thought. Legally this will translate into "there was intent". She's in deep trouble......but I predict she'll get off pretty lightly. She certainly knows right from wrong, moral from immoral, ethical from unethical. So at the end of all of this a 3 year old's innocent life was snuffed out in a deliberately cruel manner. We euthenize dogs humanely by gently lulling them into a permanent sleep. I think of how fierce and strong the human

instinct for survival is, how people battled for years to survive brutality like the Holocaust. This doctors struggle/s pale/s into insignificance when measured against that type of suffering. I recall from reading earlier that her child couldn't speak, but I know from experience with my own that our kids understand and clearly know what's happening around them. How awfully terrifying and confusing that poor souls final moments were. The dichotomy of spending the final moments of your life in the arms of the one being who has succoured and comforted you, contrasted with the realization that, that same person is doing something to you that your survival insticnts are urging you to resist with every fibre of your being, only to be followed by the terrifying realization of the futility of your effort before finally plummeting into oblivion. It's wanton cruelty, there were plenty of rational pauses in

this mother's doctor life where she clearly knew that she was descending into an abyss of calamity. She willfully chose to subjugate them. That's also intent. It's a difficult choice deciding how to view this case. Legally it's a cakewalk, rationally it's a cakewalk, emotionally.......ahhh, .....here's where we as humans obfuscate issues. ?? I weep for this 3 year soul, and I pity this mother doctor, because all her training will never assuage her torment. Even worse if she ever is cured of her mental illness, then she will endure an even greater torment. Take care, n " M. Webster" <jwebs94@...> wrote: And I believe for someone who is of right mind that statement is

true.No matter how hard things would get, I would never imagine killing my own children. There are other options.But there is such thing as mental illness and seemily normal people suddenly are NOT in their "right mind"I am not say that is an excuse --please do not think that, Lenny I see you point, I do.And I do NOT know this case, so I am speaking in general.A woman who could do this --kill her own kids, is certainly not in her right mind.Mental illness is REAL.Mental illness makes people do wrong things, and they have no control over it.----- Original Message ----- From: "CG" <gammicca@...>--snip--All of our kids are precious and all havechallenges, but too killing your own child shouldn't be an option nomatter how hard it is.Carolyn

Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

My son with ASD is mentally ill. He is not mentally well. I do not

feel any stigma from applying that term. I love my son deeply, I

anticipate and ask his needs, and luckily I can cope with his modest

level of impairment.

Mentally ill people do not choose options. They are at the mercy of

their brain wiring and chemistry. That's a valid part of the tragedy.

It's not much of a comfort knowing that if I did lose my mind and

perform a dispicable act contrary to my current nature, Lenny

Schafer would be excoriating me with self-serving posturing on a

listserv that goes out to tens of thousands of people.

- Hokkanen

> > > > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous

> > crimes such

> > > > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > > > >Lenny

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down,

The

> > > saying goes it

> > > > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

> > > > >

> > > > >Marly

> > >

> > > Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic

> apologists

> > for

> > > murder are saying the girl with autism let them down,

ultimately.

> > > After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to

blame

> > > everything on a negligent nanny government.

> > >

> > > By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a

Clintonese

> > > corruption of an African expression which actually says, in

> > essence,

> > > " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the

> modern

> > day

> > > " progressive " model for the American family is to have both

> > parents

> > > working full time, it would seem that such functional

orphaning of

> > > children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw

a

> > monkey

> > > wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

> > >

> > > Lenny

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, .

The issue is mental illness and emotional stability. This horrible

tragedy has maybe brought up issues for people, whether " baggage " from

their own lives or historical references that make their judgement

clouded.

Mental illness does not make it " right " but EXPLAINS it. Trying to

make sense of it is the hard part..but not one person has said that it

was " excusable " ...it is not!

did not deserve ANY of it. She is the victim and that is

what should be our focus, not condemning, blaming, or calling someone

" the devil " .

The loss of a life is painful but this is just torturous.

It is the " angry " posters vs the " saddened " posters and it may just

show more than their opinion.

> > > > > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous

> > > crimes such

> > > > > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > > > > >Lenny

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down,

> The

> > > > saying goes it

> > > > > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Marly

> > > >

> > > > Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic

> > apologists

> > > for

> > > > murder are saying the girl with autism let them down,

> ultimately.

> > > > After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to

> blame

> > > > everything on a negligent nanny government.

> > > >

> > > > By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a

> Clintonese

> > > > corruption of an African expression which actually says, in

> > > essence,

> > > > " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the

> > modern

> > > day

> > > > " progressive " model for the American family is to have both

> > > parents

> > > > working full time, it would seem that such functional

> orphaning of

> > > > children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw

> a

> > > monkey

> > > > wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

> > > >

> > > > Lenny

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh well, made me who I am today. Some people are thankful for that,

many more are regretful... <g>

Yes, I would say that's why I am such an advocate for kids. The thing

is, kids don't have a choice in where they're born. They can't ask

their caregivers to get counseling, take their meds, etc (when they

are very young, anyway). There is an individual responsibility that

seems to be lacking. If I throw my kid up against some wall it could

be argued that " that's how I was raised. " However, by adulthood I had

the choice, do I behave this way or do I fix it.

I accept that many adults don't understand these behaviors are not

normal. That doesn't excuse the pain inflicted on little children who

cannot do anything about it.

Debi

> Debi,

> This is so painful to hear. I too, come from a family that at times

> became abusive, but never anything like you described. My mother and

> father loved me and they showed it enough I think, in addition to the

> times when things went ugly. It was the love that was there that

> saved me. But perhaps this is why I am sensitive to the issue. How

> wonderful it would have been for someone to have stood up for us kids

> back then. . .

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think the original " sympathy " statement from the Autism Society of

Illinois is quite good and merits reposting. In particular, this

section:

" Finally, please take a moment to cherish your child, no matter what

difficulties we face, and remember to take care of your own emotional

health. If you are feeling overwhelmed, or angry at your child, or

feel that you might lose control, please admit it to yourself and

reach get help. Please reach out to a professional, whether it's a

psychologist or a social worker, and use support groups like the

Autism Society of Illinois for referrals and information: 1-888-691-

1290. "

Some of the best advice I received was from another Dad: " When it's

5AM, and he's been screaming for 3 hours, and you want to throw him

through the wall, leave the room for 10 minutes- no matter what.

Read the paper, do some laundry, whatever- JUST LEAVE THE ROOM. "

=============================

(the entire statement) It is with great sorrow that we have learned

of the death of McCarron, a three-year-old girl with autism

from Peoria. Her mother has been charged with her murder.

There is obviously more to this story than what is in the papers and

we may never know what really happened, but I knew 's mom (at

least through email and phone, as I know most of you) and it is

obvious that stress relating to the child's autism was a major

factor.

's mom, , is a doctor who tried to get her daughter the

best care she could. She and her husband could not find that

care in Illinois and they committed to moving and out of

state for a year, so could attend one of the best schools in

the country for young children with autism. was determined to

help learn how to speak and interact with the world, and she

stayed here in Illinois with her practice and with 's little

sister, while got a new job and cared for outside school

hours. I had a number of conversations with about the school,

about getting better services in Illinois, and about her and her

husband's amazing dedication to giving their little girl the best

chance at life that they could. From what I know, and

recently returned to Illinois and was trying to get help with

their local school district.

It's terribly hard to comprehend how this could happen, especially to

this family. But it is not hard to imagine that it happened—as a

parent of a child with autism, I know the incredible stress and

frustration that we all endure and the urgency to get help now and

make progress every day and the consequences of poor intervention (or

no intervention), and the ever-present fear of what will happen when

mom and dad are gone. It only takes a moment of anger and lost

control.

Without support in our homes, without understanding from people

outside the autism community, and with what seems like constant

opposition to every effort to provide what's really best for our

loved one, it seems it was simply a question of when and to whom

something like this would happen. Although we may not like to admit

it, there can be very few among us who have not felt the desperation

and anger from autism that makes you want to lash out at someone--

and none of us can say we have never been mad at our child(ren) with

autism at some point. This is not an attempt to excuse, but to

understand.

Whatever may have happened in this case, I hope that we can withhold

judgment and support this family. I also hope that this will be the

last family to experience this, because state policy and public

understanding must change for the better. Our families need and

deserve help--and promoting just one program or provider or approach

is not the answer.

Finally, please take a moment to cherish your child, no matter what

difficulties we face, and remember to take care of your own emotional

health. If you are feeling overwhelmed, or angry at your child, or

feel that you might lose control, please admit it to yourself and

reach get help. Please reach out to a professional, whether it's a

psychologist or a social worker, and use support groups like the

Autism Society of Illinois for referrals and information: 1-888-691-

1290.

M. Kennedy

> >

> > ,

> >

> > I would not consider children with ASD to be mentally ill.

> Personally

> > as well I would not judge another parent in most instances,

except

> > for murder. Sorry but I can't personally do that. I won't

judge

> > this woman, don't know the entire story either. But I don't

think

> > there is a reason from someone to do this. Sorry but I just

can't

> > excuse this loss of life. All of our kids are precious and all

> have

> > challenges, but too killing your own child shouldn't be an

option

> no

> > matter how hard it is.

> >

> > Carolyn

[Guest guest]

> It's not much of a comfort knowing that if I did lose my mind and

> perform a dispicable act contrary to my current nature, Lenny

> Schafer would be excoriating me with self-serving posturing on a

> listserv that goes out to tens of thousands of people.

Yes, you can count on it that I would not give comfort to those who

commit dispicable acts against their children. Your comments are not

fair to challenge my motives and sincerity because you disagree,

however. That is sad to hear.

Lenny

[Guest guest]

I am standing up for you now. No one had the right to hurt either one of

you as children or adults. Nothing you ever did was deserving of that kind

of treatment.

Barb

Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

> My own mother used to shake me, slap me, scratch me, scream at me,

> curse at me, etc. When I was five she made me walk on a severely

> injured ankle and when I could not she drug me across the pavement by

> one arm. I hung from the barrel of a shotgun when I was about 9 years

> old begging my father not to murder my mother.

Debi,

This is so painful to hear. I too, come from a family that at times

became abusive, but never anything like you described. My mother and

father loved me and they showed it enough I think, in addition to the

times when things went ugly. It was the love that was there that

saved me. But perhaps this is why I am sensitive to the issue. How

wonderful it would have been for someone to have stood up for us kids

back then. . .

Lenny

[Guest guest]

I'm sure there is more to this case. There is to pretty much every

murder case because when you think about it, it's not very rational

to take another person's life.

What I've thought about is how long it would have taken for a three

year old child to die when being suffocated? I think about what she

was thinking as she took her last breath, and too how she may have

struggled to live. That is what I think about and I hope that

everyone will do so as well.

Typically it may take 2-4 minutes for a person to loose their life

in this manner. So please, just time this......in silence while you

prayer for and what she may have gone through in the last

minutes of her life.

Then if you can have compassion for the person that would have done

something in that manner that is your right. I do for one reason,

she has to live the rest of her life with what she did to her

child. Forgiveness can come easy, especially when not directly

effected. But the lives of our kids should not be of less value

because they have autism, no matter who severely affected.

Carolyn

>

>

> > I am sorry there was no other person available to talk her out

of

> > her hopelesness and grief.

>

> We don't really know about her state of mind. At this point

> " hopelesness and grief " is speculation. It could also be the

result of

> drug induced homocidal rage. We just don't know. What we do know

for

> a fact is that an innocent three year old autistic girl was

murdered.

> For that, I can only feel a sense of outrage and injustice for

her -

> first and foremost. Maybe if myself and others express it strong

and

> loud enough, the message may penetrate through the dark thoughts of

> others and the next child may be instead spared. Last and least, I

> will save my sympathetic hugs for the mother after a jury reaches

its

> verdict of innocent or after she's ruled incompetent to have

> understood the right and wrong of her actions. A rush to sympathy

for

> the suspected murderer, instead of outrage against the act of

murder,

> is a rush to judgment that may be cheating the next child out of a

> chance to survive.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you CG Luv ya nCG <gammicca@...> wrote: I'm sure there is more to this case. There is to pretty much every murder case because when you think about it, it's not very rational to take another person's life.What I've thought about is how long it would have taken for a three year old child to die when being suffocated? I think about what she was thinking as she took her last breath, and too how she may have struggled to live. That is what I think about and I hope that everyone will do so as well. Typically it may take 2-4 minutes for a person to loose their life in this manner. So please, just time this......in silence while you prayer for and what she may have gone through in the last minutes of her

life.Then if you can have compassion for the person that would have done something in that manner that is your right. I do for one reason, she has to live the rest of her life with what she did to her child. Forgiveness can come easy, especially when not directly effected. But the lives of our kids should not be of less value because they have autism, no matter who severely affected.Carolyn >> > > I am sorry there was no other person available to talk her out of > > her hopelesness and grief.> > We don't really know about her state of mind. At this point> "hopelesness and grief" is speculation. It could also be the result of> drug induced homocidal rage. We just don't know. What we do know for> a fact is that an innocent three year

old autistic girl was murdered.> For that, I can only feel a sense of outrage and injustice for her -> first and foremost. Maybe if myself and others express it strong and> loud enough, the message may penetrate through the dark thoughts of> others and the next child may be instead spared. Last and least, I> will save my sympathetic hugs for the mother after a jury reaches its> verdict of innocent or after she's ruled incompetent to have> understood the right and wrong of her actions. A rush to sympathy for> the suspected murderer, instead of outrage against the act of murder,> is a rush to judgment that may be cheating the next child out of a> chance to survive.> > Lenny>

Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

Carolyn..

You said, " But the lives of our kids should not be of less value

because they have autism, no matter who severely affected. "

If this child was NT, I would respond the same way..horrible,

terrible, her mother is sick!

Value has nothing to do with this tragedy.

It is not " sympathy for the devil " ...it is knowledge of mental

illness and how scary IT is.

> >

> >

> > > I am sorry there was no other person available to talk her out

> of

> > > her hopelesness and grief.

> >

> > We don't really know about her state of mind. At this point

> > " hopelesness and grief " is speculation. It could also be the

> result of

> > drug induced homocidal rage. We just don't know. What we do

know

> for

> > a fact is that an innocent three year old autistic girl was

> murdered.

> > For that, I can only feel a sense of outrage and injustice for

> her -

> > first and foremost. Maybe if myself and others express it strong

> and

> > loud enough, the message may penetrate through the dark thoughts

of

> > others and the next child may be instead spared. Last and

least, I

> > will save my sympathetic hugs for the mother after a jury

reaches

> its

> > verdict of innocent or after she's ruled incompetent to have

> > understood the right and wrong of her actions. A rush to

sympathy

> for

> > the suspected murderer, instead of outrage against the act of

> murder,

> > is a rush to judgment that may be cheating the next child out of

a

> > chance to survive.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In my opinion, the major role of awareness is to prevent ASD kids from getting killed. We really have no idea how many ASD kids have been killed by their parents. In the area where I live every time there is a infant or toddler death there is that thought in the back of the head that makes me wonder if "Mad Child Disease" was involved.

They told us it was the terrible twos. Then it was the terrible threes. At terrible three and a half we began to question the "authority" of the pediatrician. At terrible four and a half we usurped the "authority" of the pediatrician.

During this time autism was not being diagnosed. The term was Eskimo. We never heard it from them. Kids are hyper. He looks good. Kids get upset when they see my white coat. He must have had a bad experience. Sh'yeah he did.

Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

My son with ASD is mentally ill. He is not mentally well. I do not feel any stigma from applying that term. I love my son deeply, I anticipate and ask his needs, and luckily I can cope with his modest level of impairment. Mentally ill people do not choose options. They are at the mercy of their brain wiring and chemistry. That's a valid part of the tragedy.It's not much of a comfort knowing that if I did lose my mind and perform a dispicable act contrary to my current nature, Lenny Schafer would be excoriating me with self-serving posturing on a listserv that goes out to tens of thousands of people.- Hokkanen> > > > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous > > crimes such> > > > >as this tests my beliefs.> > > > >Lenny> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The> > > saying goes it > > > > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever> > > > >> > > > >Marly> > > > > > Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic > apologists > > for> > > murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.> > > After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame> > > everything on a negligent nanny government. > > > > > > By the way "it takes a village to raise a child" is a Clintonese> > > corruption of an African expression which actually says, in > > essence,> > > "it takes a village to raise an orphaned child." Since the > modern > > day> > > "progressive" model for the American family is to have both > > parents> > > working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of> > > children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a > > monkey> > > wrench into that brave new world "equality" model.> > > > > > Lenny> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Just saw this and and have calmed down (a day at work will take the

edge off, if you can believe that). I misread your message. The

distress that we all feel over the tragic news about what happened to

the Illinois family provokes strong emotions. My fault for jumping in

on the middle of the conversation.

On May 18, 2006, at 1:59 AM, schaferatsprynet wrote:

>

> Bob, Oh no!

>

> This comment was not directed to you in the least. I was refering to

> the official hand-wringers who followup on these incidents like the

> post from the Illinois chapter of the ASA, which is the initial post

> of this thread.

>

> Your compassion and passion for our children and the families is never

> in doubt by me, no matter how we may agree or disagree on specific

> issues, publicly or privately.

>

> I have told you this privately and I will say here publicly. You are

> one of my biggest heroes for all that you do for our children. I

> would never try to lecture you on anything and I am most distressed

> that you have taken my words in a way never intended.

>

> Bob, I love you and I apologize for not being careful enough in my

> words to have caused you injury.

>

> Lenny

>

>

>

>

>>

>> " whimpy pandering "

>>

>> Lenny, give me a break. I do not need to be lectured about standing up

>> for our children.

>>

>> Lenny, I think the tone of your comments in response to my message are

>> misplaced and inappropriately extreme. Beyond that I will respond to

>> you privately, because I don't think anyone other than you needs to

>> see my view of what you have written to me.

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Was doing something constructive ...fighting for children with vaccine

injuries to get them the resources for a decent life! That's not work

- nothing I'd rather be doing.

On May 18, 2006, at 11:44 PM, Debi wrote:

> Now Bob, a day working as a lawyer will take the edge off? Wow. Go

> figure...

>

> <g>

> Debi

>

>

>>

>> Just saw this and and have calmed down (a day at work will take the

>> edge off, if you can believe that). I

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