Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

[Guest guest]

>From: " schaferatsprynet " <schafer@...>

>Reply-EOHarm

>EOHarm

>Subject: OT: More sympathy for the devil

>Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:26:37 -0000

>

>

>It is with great sorrow that we have learned of the death of

>McCarron, a three-year-old girl with autism from Peoria. Her mother

>has been charged with her murder.

>(http://www.week.com/Story.aspx?type=ln & NStoryID=50781) There is

>obviously more to this story than what is in the papers and we may

>never know what really happened, but I knew 's mom (at least

>through email and phone, as I know most of you) and it is obvious that

>stress relating to the child's autism was a major factor.

>

>'s mom, , is a doctor who tried to get her daughter the best

>care she could. She and her husband could not find that care in

>Illinois and they committed to moving and out of state for

>a year, so could attend one of the best schools in the country

>for young children with autism. was determined to help

>learn how to speak and interact with the world, and she stayed here in

>Illinois with her practice and with 's little sister, while

>got a new job and cared for outside school hours. I had a

>number of conversations with about the school, about getting

>better services in Illinois, and about her and her husband's amazing

>dedication to giving their little girl the best chance at life that

>they could. From what I know, and recently returned to

>Illinois and was trying to get help with their local school

>district.

>

>It's terribly hard to comprehend how this could happen, especially to

>this family. But it is not hard to imagine that it happened—as a

>parent of a child with autism, I know the incredible stress and

>frustration that we all endure and the urgency to get help now and

>make progress every day and the consequences of poor intervention (or

>no intervention), and the ever-present fear of what will happen when

>mom and dad are gone. It only takes a moment of anger and lost control.

>

>Without support in our homes, without understanding from people

>outside the autism community, and with what seems like constant

>opposition to every effort to provide what's really best for our loved

>one, it seems it was simply a question of when and to whom something

>like this would happen. Although we may not like to admit it, there

>can be very few among us who have not felt the desperation and anger

>from autism that makes you want to lash out at someone--and none of us

>can say we have never been mad at our child(ren) with autism at some

>point. This is not an attempt to excuse, but to understand.

>

>Whatever may have happened in this case, I hope that we can withhold

>judgment and support this family. I also hope that this will be the

>last family to experience this, because state policy and public

>understanding must change for the better. Our families need and

>deserve help--and promoting just one program or provider or approach

>is not the answer.

>

>Finally, please take a moment to cherish your child, no matter what

>difficulties we face, and remember to take care of your own emotional

>health. If you are feeling overwhelmed, or angry at your child, or

>feel that you might lose control, please admit it to yourself and

>reach get help. Please reach out to a professional, whether it's a

>psychologist or a social worker, and use support groups like the

>Autism Society of Illinois for referrals and information: 1-888-691-1290.

>

> M. Kennedy

>

>cmk@...

>

>--------------------------------------------

>

>

>I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes such

>as this tests my beliefs.

>Lenny

>

>

>O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree,But who let this family down,The saying goes it

>takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

>

>Marly

>

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[Guest guest]

> >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes such

> >as this tests my beliefs.

> >Lenny

> >

> >

> >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The

saying goes it

> >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

> >

> >Marly

Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists for

murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

everything on a negligent nanny government.

By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

corruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,

" it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the modern day

" progressive " model for the American family is to have both parents

working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkey

wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

Lenny

[Guest guest]

If anyone knows how we can reach her or her family, I

would love to write her and her family a letter of

support. I would also like to get her daughters

vaccine records and see which pharmaceutical co we

should insist they press charges against as an

accomplice in this tragic death!

--- schaferatsprynet <schafer@...> wrote:

>

>

> > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but

> a heinous crimes such

> > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > >Lenny

> > >

> > >

> > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this

> family down, The

> saying goes it

> > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist

> resonds ever

> > >

> > >Marly

>

> Who let the family down? It would seem the

> sympathetic apologists for

> murder are saying the girl with autism let them

> down, ultimately.

> After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no

> need to blame

> everything on a negligent nanny government.

>

> By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is

> a Clintonese

> corruption of an African expression which actually

> says, in essence,

> " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. "

> Since the modern day

> " progressive " model for the American family is to

> have both parents

> working full time, it would seem that such

> functional orphaning of

> children is the defacto standard. But, boy does

> autism throw a monkey

> wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

>

> Lenny

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

You hit the nail on the head!

>

> >

> >

> > > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but

> > a heinous crimes such

> > > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > > >Lenny

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this

> > family down, The

> > saying goes it

> > > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist

> > resonds ever

> > > >

> > > >Marly

> >

> > Who let the family down? It would seem the

> > sympathetic apologists for

> > murder are saying the girl with autism let them

> > down, ultimately.

> > After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no

> > need to blame

> > everything on a negligent nanny government.

> >

> > By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is

> > a Clintonese

> > corruption of an African expression which actually

> > says, in essence,

> > " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. "

> > Since the modern day

> > " progressive " model for the American family is to

> > have both parents

> > working full time, it would seem that such

> > functional orphaning of

> > children is the defacto standard. But, boy does

> > autism throw a monkey

> > wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

attended The Mariposa School for a year an a half, leaving just two weeks ago to return to Illinois.

I believe that loved both of her children with all of her heart. I honestly don't know what happened, but as we all know, grief can effect us all in terrible and unseen ways, eating away at a person from within.

was trying to leave no stone unturned to help when I knew her. She called me frequently to ask about biomedical treatments -- what I'd heard, what I thought, if I knew anybody who'd tried a particular treatment, if I could put her in touch with parents who had been to a certain doctor ...

Each of us experiences the effects of autism differently, and each of us tries to develop our own coping mechanisms. Apparently, it was just too overwhelming for .

The hearts of our entire staff at The Mariposa School go out to the McCarron family. spent many hours volunteering his time and expertise with the computer systems at the school, so we knew him well.

We have planted a beautiful garden in front of the school in 's memory.

s

persistentC@...

President and Executive Director

The Mariposa School

for Children with Autism

203 Gregson Drive

Cary, NC 27511

919-461-0600

www.MariposaSchool.org

"Most of the important things in all the world have been accomplished by people who kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." Dale Carnegie

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of schaferatsprynetSent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:27 PMEOHarm Subject: OT: More sympathy for the devil

It is with great sorrow that we have learned of the death of McCarron, a three-year-old girl with autism from Peoria. Her motherhas been charged with her murder.(http://www.week.com/Story.aspx?type=ln & NStoryID=50781) There isobviously more to this story than what is in the papers and we maynever know what really happened, but I knew 's mom (at leastthrough email and phone, as I know most of you) and it is obvious thatstress relating to the child's autism was a major factor.'s mom, , is a doctor who tried to get her daughter the bestcare she could. She and her husband could not find that care inIllinois and they committed to moving and out of state fora year, so could attend one of the best schools in the countryfor young children with autism. was determined to help learn how to speak and interact with the world, and she stayed here inIllinois with her practice and with 's little sister, while got a new job and cared for outside school hours. I had anumber of conversations with about the school, about gettingbetter services in Illinois, and about her and her husband's amazingdedication to giving their little girl the best chance at life thatthey could. From what I know, and recently returned toIllinois and was trying to get help with their local schooldistrict.It's terribly hard to comprehend how this could happen, especially tothis family. But it is not hard to imagine that it happened—as aparent of a child with autism, I know the incredible stress andfrustration that we all endure and the urgency to get help now andmake progress every day and the consequences of poor intervention (orno intervention), and the ever-present fear of what will happen whenmom and dad are gone. It only takes a moment of anger and lost control. Without support in our homes, without understanding from peopleoutside the autism community, and with what seems like constantopposition to every effort to provide what's really best for our lovedone, it seems it was simply a question of when and to whom somethinglike this would happen. Although we may not like to admit it, therecan be very few among us who have not felt the desperation and angerfrom autism that makes you want to lash out at someone--and none of uscan say we have never been mad at our child(ren) with autism at somepoint. This is not an attempt to excuse, but to understand.Whatever may have happened in this case, I hope that we can withholdjudgment and support this family. I also hope that this will be thelast family to experience this, because state policy and publicunderstanding must change for the better. Our families need anddeserve help--and promoting just one program or provider or approachis not the answer. Finally, please take a moment to cherish your child, no matter whatdifficulties we face, and remember to take care of your own emotionalhealth. If you are feeling overwhelmed, or angry at your child, orfeel that you might lose control, please admit it to yourself andreach get help. Please reach out to a professional, whether it's apsychologist or a social worker, and use support groups like theAutism Society of Illinois for referrals and information: 1-888-691-1290. M. Kennedycmk@... --------------------------------------------I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes suchas this tests my beliefs. Lenny

[Guest guest]

On May 17, 2006, at 8:30 PM, schaferatsprynet wrote:

> sympathetic apologists for

> murder

No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was, all we

have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy for the

act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is

justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for the

daughter, the mother, the family, all of us. The mother will be

punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.

Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing. It is piling on, so I

don't see the point in reacting that way. Condemnation is inherent in

the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child. No one

apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes beyond

condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What are we

to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her? I dare say she would not

care because she was and is beyond desperation. I really don't

understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you think

that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will murder

their children?

Rather let's view the tragedy for what it is and rather than spending

words on condemnation, build support for other parents out there who

are desperate, lest they too lapse into despair and tragedy. Lord

knows each of us feels desperate at some point as we witness the pain

that our children endure. We are fortunate each of us who is strong

enough to resist the despair that this poor mother must have felt, and

that drove her to an unspeakable act.

Let us understand what happened here so that we do not lapse into the

feelings she must have felt.

Rather than judge her, which is an easy thing to do, let us measure our

own strength so that we may always be strong for our own children.

That is not sympathy for the devil - that is drawing strength by

meeting the challenge of understanding what happened here. That is the

challenge I take from the sad, sad news of a mother murdering a

desperately ill child she most surely loved.

[Guest guest]

Bob,

This was just such a touching way to address this extremely painful

tragedy.

Thank you.

>

> > sympathetic apologists for

> > murder

>

>

> No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was, all we

> have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy for the

> act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is

> justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for the

> daughter, the mother, the family, all of us. The mother will be

> punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.

>

> Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing. It is piling on, so I

> don't see the point in reacting that way. Condemnation is inherent in

> the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child. No one

> apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes beyond

> condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What are we

> to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her? I dare say she would not

> care because she was and is beyond desperation. I really don't

> understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you think

> that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will murder

> their children?

>

> Rather let's view the tragedy for what it is and rather than spending

> words on condemnation, build support for other parents out there who

> are desperate, lest they too lapse into despair and tragedy. Lord

> knows each of us feels desperate at some point as we witness the pain

> that our children endure. We are fortunate each of us who is strong

> enough to resist the despair that this poor mother must have felt, and

> that drove her to an unspeakable act.

>

> Let us understand what happened here so that we do not lapse into the

> feelings she must have felt.

>

> Rather than judge her, which is an easy thing to do, let us measure our

> own strength so that we may always be strong for our own children.

>

> That is not sympathy for the devil - that is drawing strength by

> meeting the challenge of understanding what happened here. That is the

> challenge I take from the sad, sad news of a mother murdering a

> desperately ill child she most surely loved.

>

[Guest guest]

>From: " schaferatsprynet " <schafer@...>

>Reply-EOHarm

>EOHarm

>Subject: Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

>Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:30:52 -0000

>

>

>

> > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes such

> > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > >Lenny

> > >

> > >

> > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The

>saying goes it

> > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

> > >

> > >Marly

>

>Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists for

>murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

>After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

>everything on a negligent nanny government.

>

>By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

>corruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,

> " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the modern day

> " progressive " model for the American family is to have both parents

>working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

>children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkey

>wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

>

>Lenny

>

>

>

>I guess where you come from

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

There's a big difference between willfully putting a plastic bag over the head of a small child to kill her than having a child accidentally getting wrapped up in plastic and dying while mommy is passed out from exhaustion.

We have no idea what the heck happened and we have no idea of what the true character of this person was. Let's not rush to judge things. Let's not rush to excuse things. SSRIs may have been involved, maybe not. Please try to take a wait and see attitude.

Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

> >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes such> >as this tests my beliefs.> >Lenny> >> >> >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, Thesaying goes it > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever> >> >MarlyWho let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists formurder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blameeverything on a negligent nanny government. By the way "it takes a village to raise a child" is a Clintonesecorruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,"it takes a village to raise an orphaned child." Since the modern day"progressive" model for the American family is to have both parentsworking full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning ofchildren is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkeywrench into that brave new world "equality" model.Lenny

[Guest guest]

Is insanity really so difficult to comprehend?

Most of us are parents of mentally ill children. We of all people

should understand how chemical imbalances skew the human brain --

impacting decisions and actions.

Understanding this, however, does not imply condoning the act of

murder.

Also, it's cruel to criticize some parents who, realizing their

limitations, make the excruciating decision to have others raise

their children. That's what we'd prefer to murder, right?

Imagine having several children and realizing that you cannot care

for them all... that you're spending most of your time with the

autitic child, and you can't even keep him out of danger. With

little or no support system or money, what would you do?

Some parents do bail prematurely -- but rather than sneer at them

and puff ourselves up by comparison, we should be damn glad they

abrogated responsibility. I don't think they comprise the majority.

- Hokkanen

> > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous

crimes such

> > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > >Lenny

> > >

> > >

> > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The

> saying goes it

> > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

> > >

> > >Marly

>

> Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists

for

> murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

> After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

> everything on a negligent nanny government.

>

> By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

> corruption of an African expression which actually says, in

essence,

> " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the modern

day

> " progressive " model for the American family is to have both

parents

> working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

> children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a

monkey

> wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

well put, . Thanks. Maurinenhokkanen <nhokkanen@...> wrote: Is insanity really so difficult to comprehend?Most of us are parents of mentally ill children. We of all people should understand how chemical imbalances skew the human brain -- impacting decisions and actions.Understanding this, however, does not imply condoning the act of murder. Also, it's cruel to criticize some parents who, realizing their limitations, make the excruciating decision to have others raise their children. That's what we'd prefer to murder, right?Imagine having several children and realizing that you cannot care for them all... that you're spending most of your time with the autitic child, and you can't even keep him out of danger. With little or no support system or money, what would

you do?Some parents do bail prematurely -- but rather than sneer at them and puff ourselves up by comparison, we should be damn glad they abrogated responsibility. I don't think they comprise the majority.- Hokkanen> > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous crimes such> > >as this tests my beliefs.> > >Lenny> > >> > >> > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The> saying goes it > > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever> > >> > >Marly> > Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists for> murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.> After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no

need to blame> everything on a negligent nanny government. > > By the way "it takes a village to raise a child" is a Clintonese> corruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,> "it takes a village to raise an orphaned child." Since the modern day> "progressive" model for the American family is to have both parents> working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of> children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkey> wrench into that brave new world "equality" model.> > Lenny>

Sneak preview the all-new .com. It's not radically different. Just radically better.

[Guest guest]

I would venture to say in large, the mother let the family down by not

saying she needed the help, *if* what the article says is true.

According to the article the mother showed no signs of emotional

difficulty. It's difficult to help someone who doesn't let her needs

known.

Sure, we have little in the way of support, at least some of us. But

it doesn't excuse that it was the mother who was suffering, but she

failed to let her needs be known. We can't be mindreaders. I had an

uncle commit suicide, no one ever knew he had any issues. How could

his family help him if we knew not the problem? Yes, the issues with

autism are quite clear to many of us, but according to the article,

this mom did not seem to need/want help. If she did, how would anyone

have known what to do?

IF she was asking for help and no one gave, then blame those she went

to. But if she went to no one, no one failed her.

Debi

> Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists for

> murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

> After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

> everything on a negligent nanny government.

>

> By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

> corruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,

> " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the modern day

> " progressive " model for the American family is to have both parents

> working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

> children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkey

> wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

Deb,

When someone is truly having impairments in thinking and emotions,

they are too ill to see they need help. We just don't know and they

often don't either.

>

> I would venture to say in large, the mother let the family down by not

> saying she needed the help, *if* what the article says is true.

> According to the article the mother showed no signs of emotional

> difficulty. It's difficult to help someone who doesn't let her needs

> known.

>

> Sure, we have little in the way of support, at least some of us. But

> it doesn't excuse that it was the mother who was suffering, but she

> failed to let her needs be known. We can't be mindreaders. I had an

> uncle commit suicide, no one ever knew he had any issues. How could

> his family help him if we knew not the problem? Yes, the issues with

> autism are quite clear to many of us, but according to the article,

> this mom did not seem to need/want help. If she did, how would anyone

> have known what to do?

>

> IF she was asking for help and no one gave, then blame those she went

> to. But if she went to no one, no one failed her.

>

> Debi

>

>

> > Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists for

> > murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

> > After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

> > everything on a negligent nanny government.

> >

> > By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

> > corruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,

> > " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the modern day

> > " progressive " model for the American family is to have both parents

> > working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

> > children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkey

> > wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Let me just say that you can't always believe what you read in newspapers.

The situation was more complicated than it appears.

I cannot say anything further.

Please have compassion.

s

persistentC@...

President and Executive Director

The Mariposa School

for Children with Autism

203 Gregson Drive

Cary, NC 27511

919-461-0600

www.MariposaSchool.org

"Most of the important things in all the world have been accomplished by people who kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." Dale Carnegie

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of DebiSent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:31 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

I would venture to say in large, the mother let the family down by notsaying she needed the help, *if* what the article says is true.According to the article the mother showed no signs of emotionaldifficulty. It's difficult to help someone who doesn't let her needsknown.Sure, we have little in the way of support, at least some of us. Butit doesn't excuse that it was the mother who was suffering, but shefailed to let her needs be known. We can't be mindreaders. I had anuncle commit suicide, no one ever knew he had any issues. How couldhis family help him if we knew not the problem? Yes, the issues withautism are quite clear to many of us, but according to the article,this mom did not seem to need/want help. If she did, how would anyonehave known what to do?IF she was asking for help and no one gave, then blame those she wentto. But if she went to no one, no one failed her.Debi> Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic apologists for> murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.> After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame> everything on a negligent nanny government. > > By the way "it takes a village to raise a child" is a Clintonese> corruption of an African expression which actually says, in essence,> "it takes a village to raise an orphaned child." Since the modern day> "progressive" model for the American family is to have both parents> working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of> children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a monkey> wrench into that brave new world "equality" model.> > Lenny>

[Guest guest]

A FRIENDLY MENTAL HEALTH MEMO TO AUTISM COMMUNITY:

The only way to avoid perception building from eroding your brain away is to practice good mental hygiene. Luther said, "I can not prevent the birds from flying around in the air, but I can certainly prevent them from nesting in my hair."

Re: Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

On May 17, 2006, at 8:30 PM, schaferatsprynet wrote:> sympathetic apologists for> murderNo one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was, all we have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy for the act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for the daughter, the mother, the family, all of us. The mother will be punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing. It is piling on, so I don't see the point in reacting that way. Condemnation is inherent in the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child. No one apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes beyond condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What are we to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her? I dare say she would not care because she was and is beyond desperation. I really don't understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you think that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will murder their children?Rather let's view the tragedy for what it is and rather than spending words on condemnation, build support for other parents out there who are desperate, lest they too lapse into despair and tragedy. Lord knows each of us feels desperate at some point as we witness the pain that our children endure. We are fortunate each of us who is strong enough to resist the despair that this poor mother must have felt, and that drove her to an unspeakable act.Let us understand what happened here so that we do not lapse into the feelings she must have felt.Rather than judge her, which is an easy thing to do, let us measure our own strength so that we may always be strong for our own children.That is not sympathy for the devil - that is drawing strength by meeting the challenge of understanding what happened here. That is the challenge I take from the sad, sad news of a mother murdering a desperately ill child she most surely loved.

[Guest guest]

I have compassion. Like I said, *if* the article was correct. I feel

for her that she was so desperate, I feel for her that she was so

scared. But even more than that, I feel for a 3 year old child who

felt and saw her own mother murder her. I believe most people do the

best they can with what they have. I don't know this mom, she could

have been thinking she was sending her child straight to Jesus' arms

and she was saving her daughter, or she coulda been thinking she

wanted out of the autism life for the ease of life, or anything in

between. The reasoning doesn't matter so much as the fact that she

killed her child. I don't believe in mercy killing, esp when there is

hope for a bright future.

Debi

>

> Let me just say that you can't always believe what you read in

newspapers.

>

> The situation was more complicated than it appears.

>

> I cannot say anything further.

>

> Please have compassion.

>

> s

> persistentC@...

> President and Executive Director

> The Mariposa School

> for Children with Autism

> 203 Gregson Drive

> Cary, NC 27511

> 919-461-0600

> www.MariposaSchool.org <http://www.mariposaschool.org/>

>

> " Most of the important things in all the world have been accomplished by

> people who kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all. " Dale

> Carnegie

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > sympathetic apologists for

> > murder

>

>

> No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was, all we

> have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy for the

> act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is

> justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for the

> daughter, the mother, the family, all of us.

Bob, there is no equivalency of tragedy here. The mother, the family,

and " all of us " didn't get murdered. The little girl did. We all may

feel real bad. But the girl feels only dead. Such loss of

perspective is indicative of apologist misplaced sympathy and frankly

frightens me.

The mother will be

> punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.

>

> Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing.

Acommplishes nothing? Would you have murder of difficult children

then legalized? Lack of condemnation is an act of complicity.

What needs to be condemned here is not the the mother, after all, she

is innocent until proven guilty right? What needs to be condemned is

the act of murder. And I am sorry Bob, but I don't hear much of that

so far. What I hear is " oh, how awful it must have been for the mom " .

There are two or three stories like this every year. And they are

followed like clock work hand-wringing from self-described advocates

who seem only to be able to mount sympathy for the victimizers, and

little more than lip service to the victims. I find it repulsive.

> Condemnation is inherent in

> the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child. No one

> apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes beyond

> condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What are we

> to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her?

No, of course not! But maybe a little humiliation for those who

moslty pine away in sympathy for the murderer might be in order.

Where are the tears for the girl? What? What? I can't hear you.

Those who spend more tears on the perpetrators than the victim only

encourage the rationalized thinking of tommorow's child killers.

> I really don't

> understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you think

> that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will murder

> their children?

If we fail to condemn those acts loudly and without equivocation, yes

other parents on the edge may take some comfort and encouragement in

grotesquely misplaced expressions of sympathy.

I am here as first and foremost as as advocate for the children. They

are the ones most vulnerable, the ones most at risk. I make no

apologies for standing up for them. Parents need to stand up and

condemning the horrors other would visit upon the children, no matter

who the perps are, pharma or mama.

What is not needed is whimpy pandering to the fears of those parents

who may think that they, too could " lose it " if things got bad enough

and deserve a same measure of sympathy for any horrible mistakes they

might make. They don't.

Lenny

[Guest guest]

You are thinking her thoughts were rational. Yes, she did say

according to the paper, that she wanted to end her own and her

daughter's pain.

Doing what she did was not a rational, normal decision. Something

snapped and a tragedy occurred. And yes, it was gruesome, which just

speaks to the horror of it all.

> >

> > Let me just say that you can't always believe what you read in

> newspapers.

> >

> > The situation was more complicated than it appears.

> >

> > I cannot say anything further.

> >

> > Please have compassion.

> >

> > s

> > persistentC@

> > President and Executive Director

> > The Mariposa School

> > for Children with Autism

> > 203 Gregson Drive

> > Cary, NC 27511

> > 919-461-0600

> > www.MariposaSchool.org <http://www.mariposaschool.org/>

> >

> > " Most of the important things in all the world have been

accomplished by

> > people who kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all. "

Dale

> > Carnegie

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

As always, you cut right to the point and are a constant crusader for our children.

Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

> > > sympathetic apologists for> > murder> > > No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was, all we > have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy for the > act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is > justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for the > daughter, the mother, the family, all of us. Bob, there is no equivalency of tragedy here. The mother, the family,and "all of us" didn't get murdered. The little girl did. We all mayfeel real bad. But the girl feels only dead. Such loss ofperspective is indicative of apologist misplaced sympathy and franklyfrightens me.The mother will be > punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.> > Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing. Acommplishes nothing? Would you have murder of difficult childrenthen legalized? Lack of condemnation is an act of complicity. What needs to be condemned here is not the the mother, after all, sheis innocent until proven guilty right? What needs to be condemned isthe act of murder. And I am sorry Bob, but I don't hear much of thatso far. What I hear is "oh, how awful it must have been for the mom". There are two or three stories like this every year. And they arefollowed like clock work hand-wringing from self-described advocateswho seem only to be able to mount sympathy for the victimizers, andlittle more than lip service to the victims. I find it repulsive.> Condemnation is inherent in > the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child. No one > apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes beyond > condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What are we > to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her? No, of course not! But maybe a little humiliation for those whomoslty pine away in sympathy for the murderer might be in order. Where are the tears for the girl? What? What? I can't hear you.Those who spend more tears on the perpetrators than the victim onlyencourage the rationalized thinking of tommorow's child killers. > I really don't > understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you think > that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will murder > their children?If we fail to condemn those acts loudly and without equivocation, yesother parents on the edge may take some comfort and encouragement ingrotesquely misplaced expressions of sympathy.I am here as first and foremost as as advocate for the children. Theyare the ones most vulnerable, the ones most at risk. I make noapologies for standing up for them. Parents need to stand up andcondemning the horrors other would visit upon the children, no matterwho the perps are, pharma or mama. What is not needed is whimpy pandering to the fears of those parentswho may think that they, too could "lose it" if things got bad enoughand deserve a same measure of sympathy for any horrible mistakes theymight make. They don't.Lenny

[Guest guest]

No, I'm not thinking her thoughts were rational. I don't think any

mother *ever* killing her child is rational. Both extreme examples I

gave are anything but rational, and I don't have a fat clue what she

was thinking, nor do I care to really know. Nor do we know if she

snapped. The fact is, those of us who are strangers know nothing

except she killed her child. I personally prefer not to live in a

society where mothers killing their children is excusable.

My own mother used to shake me, slap me, scratch me, scream at me,

curse at me, etc. When I was five she made me walk on a severely

injured ankle and when I could not she drug me across the pavement by

one arm. I hung from the barrel of a shotgun when I was about 9 years

old begging my father not to murder my mother. It could be argued that

they " snapped " during these episodes, but it doesn't dismiss what they

did to me. Sure they had situations going on that caused them stress,

a lot of it looking back were the odd actions of my brother, who meets

all the criteria for Aspergers and myself who met many of the same

characteristics. Does it make it okay or exusable? Not according to

all the head shrinks I've seen. <g>

It's really easy to live in a society where we want to explain every

bad thing away. It does make it easier to try and make us feel better

about bad things. But there is also accountability. And the bottom

line is, the mother was the one who chose to do it, regardless of

reasoning.

Debi

> > >

> > > Let me just say that you can't always believe what you read in

> > newspapers.

> > >

> > > The situation was more complicated than it appears.

> > >

> > > I cannot say anything further.

> > >

> > > Please have compassion.

> > >

> > > s

> > > persistentC@

> > > President and Executive Director

> > > The Mariposa School

> > > for Children with Autism

> > > 203 Gregson Drive

> > > Cary, NC 27511

> > > 919-461-0600

> > > www.MariposaSchool.org <http://www.mariposaschool.org/>

> > >

> > > " Most of the important things in all the world have been

> accomplished by

> > > people who kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all. "

> Dale

> > > Carnegie

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

I would not consider children with ASD to be mentally ill. Personally

as well I would not judge another parent in most instances, except

for murder. Sorry but I can't personally do that. I won't judge

this woman, don't know the entire story either. But I don't think

there is a reason from someone to do this. Sorry but I just can't

excuse this loss of life. All of our kids are precious and all have

challenges, but too killing your own child shouldn't be an option no

matter how hard it is.

Carolyn

> > > >I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous

> crimes such

> > > >as this tests my beliefs.

> > > >Lenny

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The

> > saying goes it

> > > >takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

> > > >

> > > >Marly

> >

> > Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic

apologists

> for

> > murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

> > After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

> > everything on a negligent nanny government.

> >

> > By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

> > corruption of an African expression which actually says, in

> essence,

> > " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the

modern

> day

> > " progressive " model for the American family is to have both

> parents

> > working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

> > children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a

> monkey

> > wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

I think both you and Lenny have sadly misunderstood everything I have

said.

So be it. Condemn the murderer all you want.

Bob

On May 18, 2006, at 12:14 AM, Bradley wrote:

> Lenny,

>  

> As always, you cut right to the point and are a constant crusader for

> our children.

>

>> Re: OT: More sympathy for the devil

>>

>>

>> >

>> > >  sympathetic apologists for

>> > > murder

>> >

>> >

>> > No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was,

>> all we

>> > have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy for

>> the

>> > act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is

>> > justified. It is not and no one thinks so.  This is a tragedy for

>> the

>> > daughter, the mother, the family, all of us.

>>

>> Bob, there is no equivalency of tragedy here.  The mother, the family,

>> and " all of us " didn't get murdered.  The little girl did. We all may

>> feel real bad.  But the girl feels only dead.  Such loss of

>> perspective is indicative of apologist misplaced sympathy and frankly

>> frightens me.

>>

>> The mother will be

>> > punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.

>> >

>> > Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing. 

>>

>> Acommplishes nothing?  Would you have murder of difficult children

>> then legalized?  Lack of condemnation is an act of complicity.

>>

>> What needs to be condemned here is not the the mother, after all, she

>> is innocent until proven guilty right? What needs to be condemned is

>> the act of murder.  And I am sorry Bob, but I don't hear much of that

>> so far.   What I hear is " oh, how awful it must have been for the

>> mom " . 

>>

>> There are two or three stories like this every year.  And they are

>> followed like clock work hand-wringing from self-described advocates

>> who seem only to be able to mount sympathy for the victimizers, and

>> little more than lip service to the victims.  I find it repulsive.

>>

>>

>> > Condemnation is inherent in

>> > the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child. No

>> one

>> > apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes beyond

>> > condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother.  What are

>> we

>> > to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her?

>>

>> No, of course not!  But maybe a little humiliation for those who

>> moslty pine away in sympathy for the murderer might be in order.

>> Where are the tears for the girl?  What?  What?  I can't hear you.

>> Those who spend more tears on the perpetrators than the victim only

>> encourage the rationalized thinking of tommorow's child killers. 

>>

>> > I really don't

>> > understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you think

>> > that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will murder

>> > their children?

>>

>> If we fail to condemn those acts loudly and without equivocation, yes

>> other parents on the edge may take some comfort and encouragement in

>> grotesquely misplaced expressions of sympathy.

>>

>> I am here as first and foremost as as advocate for the children.  They

>> are the ones most vulnerable, the ones most at risk. I make no

>> apologies for standing up for them. Parents need to stand up and

>> condemning the horrors other would visit upon the children, no matter

>> who the perps are, pharma or mama. 

>>

>> What is not needed is whimpy pandering to the fears of those parents

>> who may think that they, too could " lose it " if things got bad enough

>> and deserve a same measure of sympathy for any horrible mistakes they

>> might make. They don't.

>>

>> Lenny 

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

did not excuse murder or suggest killing a child is an acceptable

option. was trying to explain this abhorrent conduct, not

justifying it. Killing a child is not justifiable. It is not an

option. did not suggest it was an option.

Life is complex. Murder is abhorrent. We can condemn but we can also

try to understand human conduct.

On May 18, 2006, at 12:35 AM, CG wrote:

> ,

>

> I would not consider children with ASD to be mentally ill. Personally

> as well I would not judge another parent in most instances, except

> for murder. Sorry but I can't personally do that. I won't judge

> this woman, don't know the entire story either. But I don't think

> there is a reason from someone to do this. Sorry but I just can't

> excuse this loss of life. All of our kids are precious and all have

> challenges, but too killing your own child shouldn't be an option no

> matter how hard it is.

>

> Carolyn

>

>

>

>>>>> I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but a heinous

>> crimes such

>>>>> as this tests my beliefs.

>>>>> Lenny

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> O.M.G Yes Lenny I do agree, But who let this family down, The

>>> saying goes it

>>>>> takes a community to raise a child,,,,,my fist resonds ever

>>>>>

>>>>> Marly

>>>

>>> Who let the family down? It would seem the sympathetic

> apologists

>> for

>>> murder are saying the girl with autism let them down, ultimately.

>>> After all, if it wasn't for her, there would be no need to blame

>>> everything on a negligent nanny government.

>>>

>>> By the way " it takes a village to raise a child " is a Clintonese

>>> corruption of an African expression which actually says, in

>> essence,

>>> " it takes a village to raise an orphaned child. " Since the

> modern

>> day

>>> " progressive " model for the American family is to have both

>> parents

>>> working full time, it would seem that such functional orphaning of

>>> children is the defacto standard. But, boy does autism throw a

>> monkey

>>> wrench into that brave new world " equality " model.

>>>

>>> Lenny

>>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

I have to agree. There are also many more murders like this than

folks know, or want to hear about. This year alone I've tracked

ten. This is not to mention accidental deaths of our kids that are

also much higher than other kids. Eloping issues, kids drowning,

kids being hit by cars, trains, etc. It does not stop and it has

gotten worse.

What we need to address is why folks aren't able to acknowledge that

this is problematic, that victimization is very much a part of the

lives of kids and adults with autism.

Our kids may not have a voice, but in when things of this nature

happen we cannot forget them. We do need to also look at why these

events take place and make sure families have support. But I still,

no matter how horrid things may be for a family, think that murdering

ones child is the answer. Could this person have been so irrational

to think her daugther would be better off dead, perhaps. But that

too is not an excuse. That is even more reason for us to try to take

care of ourselves, to try to obtain support and if we can't do it,

seek others that can. I know six families that gave up their child

with autism, mostly because they had other children to care for and

identified they could not provide appropriate care for their child

with ASD. There are folks out there as well that are willing to take

our kids, good homes, loving folks. But I also know from these

parents that did so that it was very difficult and he hardest thing

they've ever done in their lives.

I do have compassion for this woman because she will have to live the

rest of her life knowing what she has done. Too for her family and

other child. But she still in my mind does need to be charged and

prosecuted. We cannot provide a path on this for others to think

it's ok to end your child's life.

Sorry too but I see the worst in folks almost daily. Keeps me

employed I hate to admit. I've also been on calls of this nature and

it's hard, very hard for all involved to try and understand and yes

make sense of it.

I will pray for , her family, and yes can forgive her mother

due to my faith. But she still in my eyes murdered her daughter and

someone needs to be a voice for .

Carolyn

> >

> > > sympathetic apologists for

> > > murder

> >

> >

> > No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was,

all we

> > have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy

for the

> > act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is

> > justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for

the

> > daughter, the mother, the family, all of us.

>

> Bob, there is no equivalency of tragedy here. The mother, the

family,

> and " all of us " didn't get murdered. The little girl did. We all

may

> feel real bad. But the girl feels only dead. Such loss of

> perspective is indicative of apologist misplaced sympathy and

frankly

> frightens me.

>

> The mother will be

> > punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.

> >

> > Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing.

>

> Acommplishes nothing? Would you have murder of difficult children

> then legalized? Lack of condemnation is an act of complicity.

>

> What needs to be condemned here is not the the mother, after all,

she

> is innocent until proven guilty right? What needs to be condemned is

> the act of murder. And I am sorry Bob, but I don't hear much of

that

> so far. What I hear is " oh, how awful it must have been for the

mom " .

>

> There are two or three stories like this every year. And they are

> followed like clock work hand-wringing from self-described advocates

> who seem only to be able to mount sympathy for the victimizers, and

> little more than lip service to the victims. I find it repulsive.

>

>

> > Condemnation is inherent in

> > the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child.

No one

> > apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes

beyond

> > condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What

are we

> > to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her?

>

> No, of course not! But maybe a little humiliation for those who

> moslty pine away in sympathy for the murderer might be in order.

> Where are the tears for the girl? What? What? I can't hear you.

> Those who spend more tears on the perpetrators than the victim only

> encourage the rationalized thinking of tommorow's child killers.

>

> > I really don't

> > understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you

think

> > that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will

murder

> > their children?

>

> If we fail to condemn those acts loudly and without equivocation,

yes

> other parents on the edge may take some comfort and encouragement in

> grotesquely misplaced expressions of sympathy.

>

> I am here as first and foremost as as advocate for the children.

They

> are the ones most vulnerable, the ones most at risk. I make no

> apologies for standing up for them. Parents need to stand up and

> condemning the horrors other would visit upon the children, no

matter

> who the perps are, pharma or mama.

>

> What is not needed is whimpy pandering to the fears of those parents

> who may think that they, too could " lose it " if things got bad

enough

> and deserve a same measure of sympathy for any horrible mistakes

they

> might make. They don't.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

" But she still in my mind does need to be charged and

prosecuted. "

Again, No one is disagreeing. She is unsafe and needs to be

evaluated..then judged based on that evaluation.

I agree with all that you just said but this was a crime and no one is

denying this. What I find very troubling is posts of killing this

woman as an answer to this crime?

No one here is her judge or jury.

> > >

> > > > sympathetic apologists for

> > > > murder

> > >

> > >

> > > No one excuses or tolerates this murder (if that is what it was,

> all we

> > > have are news reports.) To suggest so - that there is sympathy

> for the

> > > act of murder - implies that someone, somewhere feels the act is

> > > justified. It is not and no one thinks so. This is a tragedy for

> the

> > > daughter, the mother, the family, all of us.

> >

> > Bob, there is no equivalency of tragedy here. The mother, the

> family,

> > and " all of us " didn't get murdered. The little girl did. We all

> may

> > feel real bad. But the girl feels only dead. Such loss of

> > perspective is indicative of apologist misplaced sympathy and

> frankly

> > frightens me.

> >

> > The mother will be

> > > punished if she did this, or confined in a mental institution.

> > >

> > > Condemnation of this act accomplishes nothing.

> >

> > Acommplishes nothing? Would you have murder of difficult children

> > then legalized? Lack of condemnation is an act of complicity.

> >

> > What needs to be condemned here is not the the mother, after all,

> she

> > is innocent until proven guilty right? What needs to be condemned is

> > the act of murder. And I am sorry Bob, but I don't hear much of

> that

> > so far. What I hear is " oh, how awful it must have been for the

> mom " .

> >

> > There are two or three stories like this every year. And they are

> > followed like clock work hand-wringing from self-described advocates

> > who seem only to be able to mount sympathy for the victimizers, and

> > little more than lip service to the victims. I find it repulsive.

> >

> >

> > > Condemnation is inherent in

> > > the act of murder performed by the mother against her own child.

> No one

> > > apologizes for it, but this act warrants a response that goes

> beyond

> > > condemnation. I pity the poor child and the poor mother. What

> are we

> > > to do Lenny, stone the mother, humiliate her?

> >

> > No, of course not! But maybe a little humiliation for those who

> > moslty pine away in sympathy for the murderer might be in order.

> > Where are the tears for the girl? What? What? I can't hear you.

> > Those who spend more tears on the perpetrators than the victim only

> > encourage the rationalized thinking of tommorow's child killers.

> >

> > > I really don't

> > > understand the intensity of your need for condemnation. Do you

> think

> > > that if we fail to condemn strongly enough other parents will

> murder

> > > their children?

> >

> > If we fail to condemn those acts loudly and without equivocation,

> yes

> > other parents on the edge may take some comfort and encouragement in

> > grotesquely misplaced expressions of sympathy.

> >

> > I am here as first and foremost as as advocate for the children.

> They

> > are the ones most vulnerable, the ones most at risk. I make no

> > apologies for standing up for them. Parents need to stand up and

> > condemning the horrors other would visit upon the children, no

> matter

> > who the perps are, pharma or mama.

> >

> > What is not needed is whimpy pandering to the fears of those parents

> > who may think that they, too could " lose it " if things got bad

> enough

> > and deserve a same measure of sympathy for any horrible mistakes

> they

> > might make. They don't.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>