Re: Does EDTA chelate mycotoxin?; PhosChol?

[Guest guest]

Hi LiveSimply,

> And then there is also the climate change issue.. certainly that is

> effecting the mold growth issue..

While I am not sure we can control the amount of C02 levels because

mother nature can spew out much more in one volcanic erruption than

all human activity since we have been here, I have wondered about

our ozone levels and airborne toxins and the amount of hydrogen

peroxide in rainwater.

If mankind's chemicals have lowered ozone which then makes less

hydrogen peroxide or if the toxins in our atmosphere uses it up

before they reach the ground, that natural fungicide formed in the

sky, hydrogen peroxide, is less available perhaps to protect plants

and ergo we have increased spore levels.

The ozone going away would have had to have happened long ago before

air conditioners became in use though because I have read of older

varieties of grains years ago would rust and then better plant

varieties had to be cultivated by man to withstand more. If a very

old wheat variety of the 1930s were seeded, it would just rust away

to nothing today. Rusts and fungus have always been a problem.

I don't know the answers.

Fletch

[Guest guest]

Fletch,

I haven't followed all of the discussion, especially since it took

this turn. But I would like to suggest that some of the information

about ozone and its role in the atmosphere is misleading.

Specifically:

> If mankind's chemicals have lowered ozone which then makes less

> hydrogen peroxide or if the toxins in our atmosphere uses it up

> before they reach the ground, that natural fungicide formed in the

> sky, hydrogen peroxide, is less available perhaps to protect plants

> and ergo we have increased spore levels.

This is popular with the manufacturers of ozone equipment, but wrong.

Some, a specific group, of mankind's chemicals have lowered ozone,

but in the ozone layer above the general atmosphere where it blocks

UV . Ozone creating hydrogen peroxide in the atmosphere to kill mold

and destroy toxins is one of many myths promoted by manufacturer's

web sites selling ozone equipment. It is their spin to convince us

that ozone is safe for us and is in some way Mother Nature's secret

way of protecting us - so buy their equipment for the inside scoop on

safety! Increased or decreased spore counts have nothing to do with

the level of ozone in the atmosphere. It has to do with food,

available moisture and advancing weather fronts. Another myth, for

anyone interested, is that ozone is the reason the sky is blue.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Hi LiveSimply,

>

> > And then there is also the climate change issue.. certainly that is

> > effecting the mold growth issue..

>

> While I am not sure we can control the amount of C02 levels because

> mother nature can spew out much more in one volcanic erruption than

> all human activity since we have been here, I have wondered about our

> ozone levels and airborne toxins and the amount of hydrogen peroxide

> in rainwater.

>

> If mankind's chemicals have lowered ozone which then makes less

> hydrogen peroxide or if the toxins in our atmosphere uses it up

> before they reach the ground, that natural fungicide formed in the

> sky, hydrogen peroxide, is less available perhaps to protect plants

> and ergo we have increased spore levels.

>

> The ozone going away would have had to have happened long ago before

> air conditioners became in use though because I have read of older

> varieties of grains years ago would rust and then better plant

> varieties had to be cultivated by man to withstand more. If a very

> old wheat variety of the 1930s were seeded, it would just rust away to

> nothing today. Rusts and fungus have always been a problem.

>

> I don't know the answers.

> Fletch

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks a lot, Quack for sharing your experience with CSM. That really helps.

Your story is consistent with many as I have heard that symptoms do get worse

temporarily and then better.

Jay

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

My $0.02.. Just my own experience.. nothing more...

You know what's strange.. When I first started taking CSM, I was very

very sick, with too many symptoms to describe now/here.. I was in

hell..panicking totally..and

for the first few days after i took it it sometimes seemed as if it

was making me feel *sicker*..

Because it was *sucking something out of me that was very toxic, that

had been there a long time* and that process seemed to be exposing it

to me in some way- again.. until the bulk of it had passed out..

I had unbelievable aces and pains in my gut.. grinding, bloating..

serious reflux.. and some of the mold symptoms came and went sometimes

almost as bad as before..

but all that has slacked off, to be replaced by steady, nuanced

improvements on many levels.. noticable to me but hard to describe..

One of the biggest ones is that i am sleeping much better now than I

have in a long time.. still needing to get up to pee, but not five or

six times like I had to before.. (I never got any real rest..) instead

just once or twice..

I still notice that when I take it on an empty stomach in the morning,

as soon as I eat something after that, my fingers get numb and

sometimes, start to hurt..

Maybe that is the night's mycotoxins? I don't know.. I do still have a

mold problem...

But the cold/numbness and pain/tingling goes away pretty quickly..

once I get moving and doing things.. and it is CLEAR that my overall

symptom level has been going steadily down.. esp. when I take it 4 x a

day.. (hard to maintain) And I have even been getting some of my old

energy back.. (and feeling noticably less scrambled..)

And that has been continuing. Today I went for a trip to do a buch of

errands and I felt better than I have in months. And I didn't get that

overwhelmed, sweaty feeling I used to get with the slightest exertion

until I was almost home..going up a hill..

If i was going to go through this again, I would tell myself to def.

give it a chance to start working... really i wasn't 100% sure that

the real positive changes were happening for over a week..

But it is for real.. at least if your problems are caused by mold.. I

think those here feel that the chances of it helping are very high..

(would people say 99%? I think so..)

>We have tried CSM before for only 4-5 days in a row (3 times

>a day) and I saw that my son was great one evening, but the next day

>wasn't the same. Then I went back to reading the Detoxx book and

>thought it may have been due to his depletion of fats by CSM and I

stopped. Now, I realize that reexposure may have been the reason as

he went back to the bed that was, I am sure, contaminated. I even

tried it once a day but didn't see much at all. Now, I have stopped

it and want to do it correctly starting with reducing the reexposure.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

>>>>The ozone going away would have had to have happened long ago before

air conditioners became in use though because I have read of older

varieties of grains years ago would rust and then better plant

varieties had to be cultivated by man to withstand more. If a very

old wheat variety of the 1930s were seeded, it would just rust away

to nothing today. Rusts and fungus have always been a problem.

I don't know the answers.Fletch>>>

Excellent point Fletch. I'm reading a most interesting book PLANT-DERIVED

ANTIMYCOTICS CURRENT TRENDS AND FUTURE PROSPECTS, ISBN:1560229268

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560229268/ref=sr_11_1/104-8977818-2794349?

%5Fencoding=UTF8

" There is a compelling logic in the expectation that the billion-year

evolutionary war between plants and fungi will have thrown up some really

effective defenses against fungal infection that we could exploit.....

When plants interact with certain pathogens, they protect themselves by

generating various chemical and physical barriers called the hypersensitive

response (Keen, 1990). During the hypersensitive response, recognition of a

pathogen triggers the activation of a cell-death pathway that results in the

formation of a zone of dead cells (hypersensitive cell death) around the

site of infection. This is accompanied by the accumulation of antimicrobial

compounds called phytoalexins, .......

So, even plants have problems and we can learn much from them.

Just my petals of thoughts,

Rosie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Yes, I'm still taking it. When I have started feeling my oats..

feeling a bit better and gotten a little lax about taking it then,

bang, often I will start feeling a lot of the symptoms like the

headaches and inability to concentrate, which seem to come first..then

shortly, the extreme tiredness. There have been times the tiredness

lasted weeks..Its a nightmare..when I get really sick, it takes a long

time to get back to the point where I can function to the point where

I can do even the basic things that people do to keep themselves

going..

If we have a bad mold day and I have been taking my CSM, I still get

the symptoms, but they seem substantially reduced..and the length of

time that they effect me is also reduced..

But if the mold is still around, even with CSM, its almost impossible

to get up the sustained energy to get very far in cleaning it up..

Because doing that, unless I'm very careful - zonks me out..

Its like I'm going through the motions... but very slowly.. and under

extreme gravity...the bed beckons..

Sometimes its so bad I start getting nauseous..

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl,

You were right about me reading it on a web site, but they sold

hydrogen peroxide, not ozone equipment.

I guess I really don't know if rainwater has h2o2 in it or if ozone

in the atmosphere creates it if it is. I had better read material

from an encyclopedia or a known reputable source before I get too

carried away. I hope all who read posts on these boards to check

things out for themselves. I do post a lot of links for discussion

and thank you for your reply. If rainwater does have hydrogen

peroxide in it, it could just come from interaction with plain

oxygen.

I did sort of give myself my own answer about our environment being

filled with more or less fungus in saying that rusts in our grain

crops has always been a problem, it is nothing new. Dr.Shoemaker is

right about our houses being made tighter since the 70s energy

crunch and that being a cause of more mold problems, it was the

problem in my house.

I am not sure why people think the climate changing is abnormal. It

would seem to be more abnormal for it not to change looking at

history. I suppose speed of change would be the thing to look at.

I do believe we spew too many powerful toxins into the environment

especially mercury.

My interest in h2o2 started when I bought it to shock my well which

now has iron bacteria and I wanted something less toxic than

chlorine. It seemed to work last spring since all the pipes let go

a dark brownish-red material and I just reshocked it a few weeks ago

to keep it in check. I have been on rural water until I can get the

sediment in the well to stop after the shock treatment. I don't

want to be on rural water because of the fluoride which is hard to

filter out. But if I stay on my well, I now seem to have an iron

and manganese problem to filter out along with dealing with the iron

bacteria. It had been such a good well.

I had planned on testing the h2o2 on wheat this summer but was too

busy to take the time. It is cheap and safe and if it works as a

fungicide, great. Fungicides sold to farmers are toxic and often

don't work that well. The cleared fungicides this year did not stop

scab and vomitoxin in the wheat very well because of the extra wet

weather. I am told that some people who bale alfalfa spray h2o2 as

it is baled and mold does not form as easily. I grass feed a few of

my own cows and buying quality hay is a bit of an art. I do not

have enough cows to truck in a big load from far away where the

weather was better for bales. I try to be as mold free for our meat

as possible. Most beef in this country is feedlot fed and most

grains with micotoxins in them end up going to feedlots because they

are cheaper and many times the human food industry does want them.

Busch's own elevators will not buy barley with over .5DON(vomitoxin)

in it. But they will buy the very same barley they reject as malt

from Cargill, and by very same I mean the very same. I have hauled

barley from being rejected at a Busch elevator straight to a Cargill

malt plant who will take up to 2ppm DON(sometimes more depending on

the year) and the Cargill tickets had " for Busch " stamped right on

them. If the DON is too high for Cargill, it is sold as feed.

I did use h2o2 on one of my evergreens which is almost dead from the

fungus needle cast disease(I have a lot of evergreens and many have

it). I also used chlorothalonil fungicide on it like the rest of my

evergreens, it is still hanging on. Many evergreens in our area are

dead, we have been in a wet cycle since 1993. My trees are slowly

coming back with the spraying. I have a big gun to spray the

evergreens, but don't like the chlorothalonil exposure one gets no

matter how careful you try to be.

I better quit what was going to be a short reply, oh well, I hope

you don't have a life or anything like that.

Thanks,

Fletch

[Guest guest]

I find what you're doing fascinating, Fletch. That's a bit shocking about Busch.

Are they just doing the deal where Cargill mixes the bad stuff down to a level

Busch can accept, do you think? Or are they pulling a fast one?

fletch_82000 <fletch_8@...> wrote:

Hi Carl,

You were right about me reading it on a web site, but they sold

hydrogen peroxide, not ozone equipment.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Serena,

Elevators do blend, but in years where the DON is high all over there

is less to blend off. A lot of micotoxins come off during handling

and processing into malt and I am sure the end product is at levels

the government has called safe. What we always hear is that high

vomitoxin barley makes beer that is too foamy, but I don't know if

that is true, just what you hear.

What makes farmers mad is that we take big discounts when it all goes

to the same place and sold without discount. Less filling, more vom

beer ever sold cheaper?

Fletch

[Guest guest]

Hey Fletch -

I see your point.

" the end product is at levels

the government has called safe "

And that's a good way to put it. The government seems completely oblivious to

the fact that the lies allowed about indoor mycotoxins calls their whole idea of

" safe " into question.

I'm sorry you guys are getting ripped off like that.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for this info; could you tell me how much B5 to go with the lecithin?

just as a ball

park figure. I am still fighting an exposure I had on New Years day. Getting

better, but this

sounds helpfil, cheap and vegetarian.

Thanks,

>

> I make up pills for myself that contain choline bitartrate and Vitamin

> B5, and I have noticed that they help a lot with my mold symptoms.

>

> Inexpensive Phosphtatidyl Choline (commonly known as 'lechithin') is also

good.

>

> The best form of choline that is widely available is called Alpha GPC

> choline. But it costs around $30/ounce....wholesale... It is very

> powerful and also, helps with mold symptoms.. a lot.. But its pricey..

> is it worth it? I would say this is up to you..

>

> Choline bitartrate is around 1/3 as good and it costs around $20/kilo

> wholesale. A kilo would last you a whole year..

>

> There are various forms of phosphatidyl choline (Lechithin) available,

> some very inexpensive.. Walgreens has it for around $10/bottle of 120

> gelcaps..

>

> All forms of choline require supplemental vitamin B5 to be assimilated fully..

>

> Choline is synergistic with piracetam.. the two go well together...

>

[Guest guest]

I have heard 1/3 the amount of actual choline.. So if you are taking 1

gm lechithin softgels.. they have 400 mg. choline, approx, take at

least 125 mg. B5 equivalent.. (which is slightly more calcium

pantheonate.. or however its spelled, if you are using that, because

its a salt.. )

B5 seems to be a help for a lot of things.. many say it helps with

acne, etc.. Def. seems to help my endurance.. YMMV.

On 1/18/06, kl_clayton <kl_clayton@...> wrote:

> Thanks for this info; could you tell me how much B5 to go with the lecithin?

just as a ball

> park figure. I am still fighting an exposure I had on New Years day. Getting

better, but this

> sounds helpfil, cheap and vegetarian.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I make up pills for myself that contain choline bitartrate and Vitamin

> > B5, and I have noticed that they help a lot with my mold symptoms.

> >

> > Inexpensive Phosphtatidyl Choline (commonly known as 'lechithin') is also

good.

> >

> > The best form of choline that is widely available is called Alpha GPC

> > choline. But it costs around $30/ounce....wholesale... It is very

> > powerful and also, helps with mold symptoms.. a lot.. But its pricey..

> > is it worth it? I would say this is up to you..

> >

> > Choline bitartrate is around 1/3 as good and it costs around $20/kilo

> > wholesale. A kilo would last you a whole year..

> >

> > There are various forms of phosphatidyl choline (Lechithin) available,

> > some very inexpensive.. Walgreens has it for around $10/bottle of 120

> > gelcaps..

> >

> > All forms of choline require supplemental vitamin B5 to be assimilated

fully..

> >

> > Choline is synergistic with piracetam.. the two go well together...

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had a similar experience after I started taking Diflucan, only I got *really*

sick for about a

month before I started getting better, and it was all due to my massive fungal

infection

dying off and me getting more toxins. If only I had known then what I know

now....but I

did do whatever I could to help my body detox, and my chiropractor helped me

with that.

If I had to do it over again, I might get some activated charcoal, or bentonite

if I could not

get the CSM.

>

> My $0.02.. Just my own experience.. nothing more...

>

> You know what's strange.. When I first started taking CSM, I was very

> very sick, with too many symptoms to describe now/here.. I was in

> hell..panicking totally..and

> for the first few days after i took it it sometimes seemed as if it

> was making me feel *sicker*..

>

> Because it was *sucking something out of me that was very toxic, that

> had been there a long time* and that process seemed to be exposing it

> to me in some way- again.. until the bulk of it had passed out..

>

> I had unbelievable aces and pains in my gut.. grinding, bloating..

> serious reflux.. and some of the mold symptoms came and went sometimes

> almost as bad as before..

>

> but all that has slacked off, to be replaced by steady, nuanced

> improvements on many levels.. noticable to me but hard to describe..

>

> One of the biggest ones is that i am sleeping much better now than I

> have in a long time.. still needing to get up to pee, but not five or

> six times like I had to before.. (I never got any real rest..) instead

> just once or twice..

>

> I still notice that when I take it on an empty stomach in the morning,

> as soon as I eat something after that, my fingers get numb and

> sometimes, start to hurt..

>

> Maybe that is the night's mycotoxins? I don't know.. I do still have a

> mold problem...

>

> But the cold/numbness and pain/tingling goes away pretty quickly..

> once I get moving and doing things.. and it is CLEAR that my overall

> symptom level has been going steadily down.. esp. when I take it 4 x a

> day.. (hard to maintain) And I have even been getting some of my old

> energy back.. (and feeling noticably less scrambled..)

>

> And that has been continuing. Today I went for a trip to do a buch of

> errands and I felt better than I have in months. And I didn't get that

> overwhelmed, sweaty feeling I used to get with the slightest exertion

> until I was almost home..going up a hill..

>

> If i was going to go through this again, I would tell myself to def.

> give it a chance to start working... really i wasn't 100% sure that

> the real positive changes were happening for over a week..

>

> But it is for real.. at least if your problems are caused by mold.. I

> think those here feel that the chances of it helping are very high..

> (would people say 99%? I think so..)

>

>

> >We have tried CSM before for only 4-5 days in a row (3 times

>

> >a day) and I saw that my son was great one evening, but the next day

>

> >wasn't the same. Then I went back to reading the Detoxx book and

>

> >thought it may have been due to his depletion of fats by CSM and I

> stopped. Now, I realize that reexposure may have been the reason as

> he went back to the bed that was, I am sure, contaminated. I even

> tried it once a day but didn't see much at all. Now, I have stopped

> it and want to do it correctly starting with reducing the reexposure.

>

[Guest guest]

Can you tell me how your chiropractor helped you detox. I have a great

chiropractor and maybe he could help me if I could share your info with him!!

Thanks,

Sue

I had a similar experience after I started taking Diflucan, only I got

*really* sick for about a

month before I started getting better, and it was all due to my massive

fungal infection

dying off and me getting more toxins. If only I had known then what I know

now....but I

did do whatever I could to help my body detox, and my chiropractor helped me

with that.