Re: cost of raw milk

July 12, 2010

First of all, I was assuming that CWT meant 'hundred weight'? As in by the pound, so $25/CWT would have been roughly $2/gal since a gallon weighs a little over 8 lbs.But then the numbers go berserk and we're then talking about $15/gal. No such high markup (from $2 to $15) exists anywhere, not even in the high fashion rag industry. Something isn't making sense. Are you saying that the bigAg dairy price setters are giving you $2/gal and then the entire rest is their greed money?As for the cost of living being bandied about, I'd suggest that the world economy is going to level a lot of the playing field and we'll see a lot of changes in the way we live as the markets adjust, and the American stranglehold on banking and currencies decreases til things have shifted to where the power in the market will be the Asian centers in China and India, with some South American business markets in the power mix. The American worker has unfortunately been seduced into thinking they should emulate the greed and bad habits of the CEOs and similar crooks, including politicians. So now the lowend wage is out of balance and that balance is swinging as the excesses of govt come home to roost. So it would be advantageous for farmers to have figured out the Salatin philosophy and be able to hold their own with the declining demand-side of the American population's income already dwindling. When I figured out our situation last year for tax analyses, I was drawing on my residual pension and my social security, using that to fund a business startup for our family of three adults to the total of about $20k per year for the three of us and making 'ends meet' and so I feel that punishing people for their lack of income is basically just as bad as punishing them for being openly poorer than your artificial benchmark in the govt/political defined standards. As for milk, we simply do not drink much simple milk, have a bit of yogurt, and don't use much butter either. My interest in raw milk is in the aspect of its benefits as medicine, not as ordinary food. Maybe you would prefer to consider your prices in the medical market, IF WE COULD JUST GET A FULL BLOWN NUTRITIONAL MEDICINE SYSTEM UP AND RUNNING, INCLUDING A DECENT METHOD OF HANDLING SERIOUS EMERGENCIES.I consider making yogurt from ordinary decently produced quality dairy milk to be quite adequately healthy and I have not seen any research to show that even pasteurized milk (preferably some decent processes are coming that are better than the current) can be adequately decent for medical uses. I'd also wonder if there was a decent process for doing DRY milk, since I've seen decent drying processes evolve for fresh wheat grass as a health food store product available online. And I like the sensible idea of drying as a way of preserving goodness. Wouldn't you say that they could do something like that with raw milk?Just my view point in this tangled economics discussion using the abbreviations that I hadn't seen anywhere before.MJ Re: Re:Self-intro of Leah /cost of raw milk

Jo

You are so RIGHT! For far too long, we as farmers have been price takers; not price makers! By rights "commodity" milk producers should get $20-$25 CWT for their milk to make ends meet. But we don't. with the premiums (milk fats, other solids, protein etc) wee get in the area of $16-17 cwt. Farmers are also one of the few businesses that have to pay RETAIL for equipment BUT get paid WHOLESALE for their goods!

Just because we can set our prices high doesn't mean we should. HOWEVER, those smaller farmers, who milk small numbers, by hand or with the old bucket milkers do need to cover their costs. We are fortunate on our farm. We have the acreage to produce our own corn, oats and hay (as well as pasture). We do not have to buy it.

Those who live in an area where milk is $15 a gallon should price it at that to stay competitive! Consumers may "perceive" lower cost milk to be inferior to the $15 milk even tho it may not be. or producers, their customers "perception can be the make it or break it point for them. Maybe if you don't want to pay the $15 a gallon you could give up some of your time to help your farmer out. Cleaning out the barn or helping milk or putting up hay. Whatever the case may be. Maybe they will drop the price of the milk for sweat equity.

The farmer takes the biggest risk when they sell fresh milk.

ro

Re: Re:Self-intro of Leah /cost of raw milk

I know right? In my Â“otherÂ” job I charge 65-85/hour for my experience and expertise in my field. Yet when I tried to add just a 1/8 of that to my soap costs (a bit more then minimum wage) it put the soap thru the roof. I was adding my Â“timeÂ” into the mix. I guess the going rate of homemade means one shouldnÂ’t add their time into the costs. And historically farmers never did that. And its a shame. Its the most honest work one will ever do.I find this whole topic a bit disturbing. All I can say to joannes comments is donÂ’t buy raw milk. Go to the store and support them, big box stores who undercut the mom and pop shops as they come to town. I am small potatoes to the real farmers on this list who have no other income to Â“subsidyÂ” them. For me this started out as a hobby. Now its a matter of being able to feed the goats, so I can keep them. Having them Â“workÂ” and pay their way is the only way. If this is exploitative? Then so be it. Which is interesting since iÂ’m still not breaking even. Also, I would venture a guess that if you saw my farm/animals/care vs. others that sell only to profit, youÂ’d likely not be so demeaning in your Â“boycottÂ” especially when your health is at risk.... IÂ’ve been to a few farms lately that I didnÂ’t even want to walk on the property, let alone buy milk from. And that is the price you are paying for.No amount of discussion will likely change your view that raw milk should be cheap. The reality is farming is expensive. And Milk is not cheap. WeÂ’ve given valid reasons as to what goes into it. How things really cost. How a raw farmer is struggling to keep it feasible. $12-15gallons is the wholesale cost of a farmer trying to make it work. And All without gov involvement. If a person can sell it for $9/gallon I suspect their cost of living is a bit cheaper.. There comes a time where costs vs. quality will be at issue. Where each farmer is at a crossroad to what he can handle without giving up either. Raw will never be as huge as pastuerized. How many animals can you milk before you lose the ability to handle the quality control that raw milk entails? That one more animal in the production line up that will lower quality. Would you rather we do that to create cheaper milk? If so then its back to factory farming. Pastuerizing the milk. Etc.There will always be subsidied dead milk to buy, I suggest you stick with that joanne.j

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July 14, 2010

I'd just like to say that after reading the thread about this subject, I'm now

very concerned that my farmer isn't charging enough for his wonderful product!

I think I might start paying him more per gallon on my own. I knew that farmers

work hard and I know " my farmer " works very hard, as well as his wife and his

mother, who helps him in his little store front but my eyes have been opened in

many ways since joining this group. I am always wondering how in the world they

ever get a vacation or any time off.

I'm so glad I joined this group and learned more about this. Today I'm taking

my son on a homeschool trip to a farm and they are going to let the kids try

milking if they want to. I really hope they will let me try too!

Take care and THANK YOU to all you farmers out there!!!

~Karin

p.s. Personally, if the Milk got so expensive that I couldn't afford it under

my current budget, I would cut something else out and keep buying the milk. (I

might drink a little less though)

July 14, 2010

I'd just like to say that after reading the thread about this subject, I'm now

very concerned that my farmer isn't charging enough for his wonderful product!

I think I might start paying him more per gallon on my own. I knew that farmers

work hard and I know " my farmer " works very hard, as well as his wife and his

mother, who helps him in his little store front but my eyes have been opened in

many ways since joining this group. I am always wondering how in the world they

ever get a vacation or any time off.

I'm so glad I joined this group and learned more about this. Today I'm taking

my son on a homeschool trip to a farm and they are going to let the kids try

milking if they want to. I really hope they will let me try too!

Take care and THANK YOU to all you farmers out there!!!

~Karin

p.s. Personally, if the Milk got so expensive that I couldn't afford it under

my current budget, I would cut something else out and keep buying the milk. (I

might drink a little less though)

July 14, 2010

Karin

I'm sure your farmer will appreciate it!

ro

Re: cost of raw milk

I'd just like to say that after reading the thread about this subject, I'm now very concerned that my farmer isn't charging enough for his wonderful product! I think I might start paying him more per gallon on my own. I knew that farmers work hard and I know "my farmer" works very hard, as well as his wife and his mother, who helps him in his little store front but my eyes have been opened in many ways since joining this group. I am always wondering how in the world they ever get a vacation or any time off. I'm so glad I joined this group and learned more about this. Today I'm taking my son on a homeschool trip to a farm and they are going to let the kids try milking if they want to. I really hope they will let me try too!Take care and THANK YOU to all you farmers out there!!!~Karinp.s. Personally, if the Milk got so expensive that I couldn't afford it under my current budget, I would cut something else out and keep buying the milk. (I might drink a little less though)

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July 14, 2010

Most of the " poor " mothers who can't afford raw milk get WIC or food stamps, etc they can use in the grocery stores. No, it isn't raw milk, but it gets them what they need. I, personally, would never sell raw milk for a baby just on the principle of not wanting a law suit if the baby gets sick from anything & it being blamed on raw milk. I may not like the way big business operations, but I'm not about to lose my farm & animals because people can use the current system to sue me. Bonnie RobbinsTub Creek FarmsGreensburg, IN Thank you so much, for presenting your mindset to the group. I have enormous respect for you and what you're trying to do. It's difficult charging less for a product than your competition. The customers love it, but the competitors hate it. I was telling my friend Barbara yesterday about this debate and she said, " What about all the poor mothers and their babies who can never afford raw milk? These farmers are the same people who complain, complain, complain about big business but then turn around and operate the same way. " ------------ --------- --------- ---- And thank you, B. Dunlap and silkiechicken for providing pricing information and profitable business models. I agree, Dunlap, that you determine how much profit you need, then you find out if a particular business model will support that need. If it doesn't, then you have to modify the model or find another. ------------ --------- --------- ---- Thank you, , for presenting an opposing view. Yes, everyone has a right to charge what they want, and every consumer has a right to accept or reject that price. I personally reject $16 per gallon. I find it repugnant. I currently pay $6.50 per gallon grass-fed Jersey milk from a retailer, and I understand there's a farm even closer to me who sells for $2 a gallon, which I think is too low. The opposite of the " all the market will bear " mindset is found in spiritual endeavors. Spiritual advisors, healers, etc., feel that money taints their efforts, and so they starve to death while sacrificing their lives to help other people. Everyone loves getting something for free, but it's equally abhorrent to take from others without doing what you can to support them and ensure their livelihood. " The workman is worthy of his hire. " I also think those in this fight to legalize raw milk should be supporting those who are fighting against the government, whether it's giving donations, taking time to write letters or call government officials, or showing up at rallies. And for the record, I never said " production costs + MINIMAL profit margin. " I wrote: " I've always thought that price was dictated by cost of production + profit margin. You figure out how much it costs to produce it and then add a profit margin you feel comfortable with that allows you a good living and provides an affordable product to those who need it. " I guess I'm just an idealist. I'd like to see a world motivated not by greed and profit, but by mutual support. Joanne www.joanneunleashed .comOn Jul 14, 2010, at 3:46 AM, rawDairy@yahoogroup s.comwrote: As a producer I try to bring a good product at a reasonable price. I am constantly being told that I can get more for my milk. I don't see that as fair to the consumer. I want to promote and educate my consumer and to help other producers get started to bring more product to the market. We as producers have a responsibility to bring good reasonable product to the market so that as many as possible can have it.

July 14, 2010

I am newer to farming I admit(I am a homesteader curing my sons

autism with raw milk) but my training is in business and that talks about an

equilibrium priceâ€¦ Â they make all sorts of charts on how much you can sell a

product.. and at what profit .. and how many units.. and as the price rises

there are usually less items sold.. but at a higher profit and .. if you chart

out and research your markets they are able to figure out .. at what price to

market at where you retain enough profit.. yet sell enough units to equal the

best profitâ€¦ the equilibrium priceâ€¦

But I think the concept is what we all are talking about.

Also marketing and target markets really play into it. If you

are targeting autistics and crohns and such peoples who are gluten free and you

feed all non GMO feed and are moistly grassfed.. and you have no wheat in any

of your feed stuff â€¦ then that market â€¦ is used to paying for their special

requirements.. that market if singled out â€¦ will pay 20 a gallonâ€¦ and if you

jump thru a ton of hoops to get them that particular product â€¦ that they value

... you are meeting their need and thatâ€™s all good in my book.

From:

RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of

Robbins

Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:33 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: RE: cost of raw milk

Most of the " poor " mothers who can't afford raw milk get

WIC or food stamps, etc they can use in the grocery stores. No, it isn't raw

milk, but it gets them what they need. I, personally, would never sell

raw milk for a baby just on the principle of not wanting a law suit if the baby

gets sick from anything & it being blamed on raw milk. I may not like the

way big business operations, but I'm not about to lose my farm & animals

because people can use the current system to sue me.

Bonnie Robbins

Tub Creek Farms

Greensburg, IN

Thank you so much, for presenting your mindset to

the group. I have enormous respect for you and what you're trying to do. It's

difficult charging less for a product than your competition. The customers love

it, but the competitors hate it.

I

was telling my friend Barbara yesterday about this debate and she said,

" What about all the poor mothers and their babies who can never afford raw

milk? These farmers are the same people who complain, complain, complain about

big business but then turn around and operate the same way. "

------------

--------- --------- ----

And

thank you, B. Dunlap and silkiechicken for providing pricing information and

profitable business models. I agree, Dunlap, that you determine how much profit

you need, then you find out if a particular business model will support that

need. If it doesn't, then you have to modify the model or find another.

------------

--------- --------- ----

Thank

you, , for presenting an opposing view. Yes, everyone has a right to

charge what they want, and every consumer has a right to accept or reject that

price. I personally reject $16 per gallon. I find it repugnant. I currently pay

$6.50 per gallon grass-fed Jersey milk from a retailer, and I understand

there's a farm even closer to me who sells for $2 a gallon, which I think is

too low.

The

opposite of the " all the market will bear & quot; mindset is found in

spiritual endeavors. Spiritual advisors, healers, etc., feel that money taints

their efforts, and so they starve to death while sacrificing their lives to

help other people. Everyone loves getting something for free, but it's equally

abhorrent to take from others without doing what you can to support them and

ensure their livelihood. " The workman is worthy of his hire. "

I

also think those in this fight to legalize raw milk should be supporting those

who are fighting against the government, whether it's giving donations, taking

time to write letters or call government officials, or showing up at rallies.

And

for the record, I never said " production costs + MINIMAL profit

margin. " I wrote:

" I've

always thought that price was dictated by cost of production + profit margin.

You figure out how much it costs to produce it and then add a profit margin you

feel comfortable with that allows you a good living and provides an affordable

product to those who need it. "

I

guess I'm just an idealist. I'd like to see a world motivated not by greed and

profit, but by mutual support.

Joanne

www.joanneunleashed .com

On

Jul 14, 2010, at 3:46 AM, rawDairy@yahoogroup

s.comwrote:

As

a producer I try to bring a good product at a reasonable price. I am constantly

being told that I can get more for my milk. I don't see that as fair to the

consumer. I want to promote and educate my consumer and to help other producers

get started to bring more product to the market. We a s producers have a

responsibility to bring good reasonable product to the market so that as many

as possible can have it.

July 14, 2010

I'm a raw milk producer, starting within the last year, after purchasing it for

the past 5 yrs, so I've been on both sides.

This is very hard work & very low pay, and not sustainable way of life for most

people in Oregon, given our raw milk restrictions: Oregon law states you can

have 3 cows or less, no advertising, on farm sales only. There's no economy of

scale with 2 or even 3 cows.

In the 5 yrs. I bought milk, I personally saw 3 small dairy (3 cows or less)go

out of business. It just takes one tragedy, because it can't generate enough

income to have a savings set aside to cover the tragedies. I know several

others of the small producers in the area around me. It's a hobby for all of us

- we are greatly subsidized by our husband's jobs or some other income source.

Much food is subsidized in this country. Until people are willing to pay the

price for nutritionally dense food, it won't be available to all. If we start

paying what nutritionally dense food is worth, then we will have more families

able to start up small, raw milk dairies so it's more readily available. There

is not one answer to solve this argument.

I have 50 regular customers. Maybe 2 of these customers can be considered

affluent. The rest are made up of all ages, with a large percentage being young

families where the mom is home with the children, they live off 1 income, many

teachers (not high paying, especially for 1 income). they budget carefully for

the gallon of milk from us, & couple pounds grass fed meat & organic veggies

they buy each week. They (and my husband & I) drive very old cars & are very

frugal so we can all eat as healthfully as possible. Any income can do this. On

westonaprice.org you can find info about how to feed a family a nutritionally

dense diet on a lower income.

Americans are used to a lot of food, convenient, and cheap. You don't need to

eat as much food if it's nutritionally dense. There will be an investment of

time, too - my customers drive to me each week, as I drove weekly 1 hr. rountrip

for 5 yrs. There is more preparation time to eat healthfully. It's not

convenient nor cheap; it is a lifestyle.

When I can no longer milk my cows I will pay one of my dairying friends $25

gallon easily because I have such an appreciation for what we do. I am not

affluent. But that will be my part to hopefully keep them going through the ups

and downs of milking. There are many things my family gives up in order to buy

good food.

>

> I'd just like to say that after reading the thread about this subject, I'm now

very concerned that my farmer isn't charging enough for his wonderful product!

I think I might start paying him more per gallon on my own. I knew that farmers

work hard and I know " my farmer " works very hard, as well as his wife and his

mother, who helps him in his little store front but my eyes have been opened in

many ways since joining this group. I am always wondering how in the world they

ever get a vacation or any time off.

>

> I'm so glad I joined this group and learned more about this. Today I'm taking

my son on a homeschool trip to a farm and they are going to let the kids try

milking if they want to. I really hope they will let me try too!

>

> Take care and THANK YOU to all you farmers out there!!!

>

> ~Karin

>

> p.s. Personally, if the Milk got so expensive that I couldn't afford it under

my current budget, I would cut something else out and keep buying the milk. (I

might drink a little less though)

>

July 14, 2010