Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff,

The conversion rate from ALA is very low. In fact way too low to deliver

sufficient EPA. Also the back conversion from DHA is also low. It would seem

we need to eat preformed EPA for max biological effect and the other

pathways only provide a bare minimum. Some even suggest the back conversion

of DHA to EPA occurred to provide EPA from eating animal brain DHA where

aquatic EPA was not available.

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

> The body can make EPA from ALA and the body can back

> convert DHA to EPA..

>

> Thats why EPA and DHA are not considered " essential "

> and only ALA and LA are.

>

> As the review article I posted last week suggested,

> aquatic sources of EFAs may not be neccessary

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> The conversion rate from ALA is very low. In fact

> way too low to deliver

> sufficient EPA. Also the back conversion from DHA is

> also low.

Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 Jun;59(6):1304-9. Dietary

substitution with an alpha-linolenic acid-rich

vegetable oil increases eicosapentaenoic acid

concentrations in tissues.Mantzioris E, MJ,

Gibson RA, Cleland LG.

Rheumatology Unit, Royal Adelaide Hospital, Australia.

Thirty healthy male volunteers were randomly allocated

into two dietary treatment groups. The flaxseed group

(n = 15) maintained a diet high in alpha-linolenic

acid (alpha-LA; 18:3n-3) and low in linoleic acid (LA;

18:2n-6) by using a flaxseed oil and spread that are

high in alpha-LA. The control group (n = 15)

maintained a diet high in LA and low in alpha-LA,

typifying a Western diet. Both groups maintained their

diets for 4 wk, followed by another 4-wk period in

which they supplemented the diets with fish oil [1.62

g eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20:5n-3) daily and 1.08

g docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6n-3) daily] in a

triglyceride form. The flaxseed oil-containing diet

resulted in significant increases in alpha-LA

concentrations in the plasma phospholipid, cholesteryl

ester, and triglyceride fractions (eightfold increase)

and neutrophil phospholipids (50% increase). EPA

concentrations increased by 2.5-fold in the plasma

lipid fractions and neutrophil phospholipids. After

fish-oil supplementation EPA concentrations increased

in parallel in both dietary groups, remaining higher

in the flaxseed group for both the plasma lipid

fractions and neutrophil phospholipids. The results

indicate that alpha-LA-rich vegetable oils can be used

in a domestic setting (in conjunction with a

background diet low in LA) to elevate EPA in tissues

to concentrations comparable with those associated

with fish-oil supplementation.

PMID: 7910999

Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Mar;49(3):169-78. Links

Supplementation with flaxseed oil versus sunflowerseed

oil in healthy young men consuming a low fat diet:

effects on platelet composition and function.Allman

MA, Pena MM, Pang D.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Sydney,

Australia.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of supplementing a

low fat diet with an alpha-linolenic acid-rich (C18:3

n-3) oil with a linoleic acid-rich (C18:2 n-6) oil on

platelet composition and function. DESIGN: Prospective

study with random allocation to one of the two oils.

SETTING: Free-living study. SUBJECTS: Eleven healthy

young males recruited from within the University.

INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were allocated to consume 40 g

of either flaxseed oil (n = 5) or sunflowerseed oil (n

= 6) daily for 23 days. Fasting blood samples were

collected at commencement and completion of

supplementation for analysis of platelet fatty acids

and platelet aggregation. RESULTS: The platelet

eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) more than doubled in the

group taking flaxseed oil (P < 0.05) but was unchanged

in the sunflowerseed group. As a result the platelet

EPA:arachidonic acid ratio, considered a marker for

thromboxane production and platelet aggregation

potential, increased in the flaxseed group (P < 0.05).

The aggregation response induced by 0.75 and 2

micrograms of collagen was decreased in those taking

flaxseed oil (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: This study

provides further evidence that consumption of

alpha-linolenic acid-rich oils may offer protective

effects against cardiovascular disease over linoleic

acid-rich oils via their ability to decrease the

tendency of platelets to aggregate.

PMID: 7774533

Eur J Clin Nutr. 1996 Apr;50(4):229-35. Links

Alpha-linolenic acid in rapeseed oil partly

compensates for the effect of fish restriction on

plasma long chain n-3 fatty acids.Valsta LM, Salminen

I, Aro A, Mutanen M.

Department of Nutrition, National Public Health

Institute, Helsinki, Finland.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the ability of alpha-linolenic

acid (ALA) in low erucic acid rapeseed oil (RO) to

compensate for the effects of a restriction in fish

intake on plasma fatty acid composition. DESIGN AND

SUBJECTS: Two times 6 weeks' randomized dietary

intervention was used with blind crossover design in

40 healthy unconfined women and men (age 20-46y).

INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were assigned to two fish

restricted diets, namely RO diet and Trisun-sunflower

oil (TSO) diet, with similar proportions of saturated:

monounsaturated : polyunsaturated fatty acids

(11.5:17.5:8.5% of total energy, En%), but differing

in their ALA content (2.2 and 0.3 En%) and n-6 :

n-3-ratio (3 : 1 and 23 : 1, respectively). The fatty

acid compositions of plasma triglycerides (TG),

cholesterol esters (CE), and phospholipids (PL) were

analyzed by gas chromatography. Dietary intake was

evaluated based on 3- to 7-day food records. RESULTS:

The proportion of TG and CE ALA decreased on the TSO

diet (from 1.6% to 0.9% and from 0.9% to 0.4%,

respectively, P < 0.001) and increased on the RO diet

(from 1.7% to 3.4% and from 0.9% to 1.3%,

respectively, P < 0.001) compared to the baseline

level. The proportion of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)

in all three plasma fractions decreased on the TSO

diet but not on the RO diet. The proportions of

docosa-hexaenoic acid (DHA) decreased on both

experimental diets and there was no difference in CE

DHA between the diets. PL docosa-pentaenoic acid (DPA)

and PL DHA remained at a higher level on the RO diet

compared to the TSO diet (P < 0.001 and P < 0.05,

respectively). CONCLUSIONS: ALA is metabolized to EPA

in humans to a significant extent. The degree to which

rapeseed oil (ca 50g/day) affects the proportion of

EPA resembled the effect of a weekly portion (50-100g)

of fatty fish depending on the fat content of the

fish.

PMID: 8730609

Br J Nutr. 1993 Mar;69(2):443-53. Links High

alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum

usitatissimum): some nutritional properties in

humans.Cunnane SC, Ganguli S, Menard C, Liede AC,

Hamadeh MJ, Chen ZY, Wolever TM, DJ.

Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of

Medicine, University of Toronto, Canada.

Although high alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum

usitatissimum) is one of the richest dietary sources

of alpha-linolenic acid and is also a good source of

soluble fibre mucilage, it is relatively unstudied in

human nutrition. Healthy female volunteers consumed 50

g ground, raw flaxseed/d for 4 weeks which provided

12-13% of energy intake (24-25 g/100 g total fat).

Flaxseed raised alpha-linolenic acid and long-chain

n-3 fatty acids in both plasma and erythrocyte lipids,

as well as raising urinary thiocyanate excretion

2.2-fold. Flaxseed also lowered serum total

cholesterol by 9% and

low-density-lipoprotein-cholesterol by 18%. Changes in

plasma alpha-linolenic acid were equivalent when 12 g

alpha-linolenic acid/d was provided as raw flaxseed

flour (50 g/d) or flaxseed oil (20 g/d) suggesting

high bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid from

ground flaxseed. Test meals containing 50 g

carbohydrate from flaxseed or 25 g flaxseed mucilage

each significantly decreased postprandial blood

glucose responses by 27%. Malondialdehyde levels in

muffins containing 15 g flaxseed oil or flour/kg were

similar to those in wheat-flour muffins. Cyanogenic

glycosides (linamarin, linustatin, neolinustatin) were

highest in extracted flaxseed mucilage but were not

detected in baked muffins containing 150 g

flaxseed/kg. We conclude that up to 50 g

high-alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed/d is palatable,

safe and may be nutritionally beneficial in humans by

raising n-3 fatty acids in plasma and erythrocytes and

by decreasing postprandial glucose responses.

PMID: 8098222

[Guest guest]

Review Article

Has an aquatic diet been necessary for hominin brain

evolution and functional development?

H. Langdon*

British Journal of Nutrition (2006), 96, 7–17

A number of authors have argued that only an

aquatic-based diet can provide the necessary quantity

of DHA to support the human brain, and that a

switch to such a diet early in hominin evolution was

critical to human brain evolution. This paper

identifies the premises behind this hypothesis and

critiques them on the basis of clinical literature.

Both tissue levels and certain functions of the

developing infant brain are sensitive to extreme

variations in the supply of DHA in artificial feeding,

and it can be shown that levels in human milk reflect

maternal diet. However, both the

maternal and infant bodies have mechanisms to store

and buffer the supply of DHA, so that functional

deficits are generally resolved without

compensatory diets. There is no evidence that human

diets based on terrestrial food chains with

traditional nursing practices fail to provide adequate

levels of DHA or other n-3 fatty acids. Consequently,

the hypothesis that DHA has been a limiting resource

in human brain evolution must be considered to be

unsupported.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff,

I can drag up paper after paper which clearly shows there is no way the body

can convert anything like enough ALA to EPA to get optimal levels of EPA in

the cell membrane walls. And if you tried to eat a lot of ALA you will

consume all the enzyme needed to do the beneficial Omega 6 conversion. It's

been years since I last discussed this so it will take a few days to get the

dusty brain pathways reenergized.

To be clear about our biases here. Do you or do you not eat long chain omega

3 rich fish? Is this desire to prove you can get optimal levels of EPA by

eating a lot of ALA about science or supporting personal eating choices? If

you don't choose to eat fish, then that is your choice but trust me you

can't get enough EPA without using fish oil capsules despite what you may

wish to read into selected papers.

With respect,

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

>> The conversion rate from ALA is very low. In fact

>> way too low to deliver

>> sufficient EPA. Also the back conversion from DHA is

>> also low.

>

> Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 Jun;59(6):1304-9. Dietary

> substitution with an alpha-linolenic acid-rich

> vegetable oil increases eicosapentaenoic acid

> concentrations in tissues.Mantzioris E, MJ,

> Gibson RA, Cleland LG.

> Rheumatology Unit, Royal Adelaide Hospital, Australia.

>

> Thirty healthy male volunteers were randomly allocated

> into two dietary treatment groups. The flaxseed group

> (n = 15) maintained a diet high in alpha-linolenic

> acid (alpha-LA; 18:3n-3) and low in linoleic acid (LA;

> 18:2n-6) by using a flaxseed oil and spread that are

> high in alpha-LA. The control group (n = 15)

> maintained a diet high in LA and low in alpha-LA,

> typifying a Western diet. Both groups maintained their

> diets for 4 wk, followed by another 4-wk period in

> which they supplemented the diets with fish oil [1.62

> g eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20:5n-3) daily and 1.08

> g docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6n-3) daily] in a

> triglyceride form. The flaxseed oil-containing diet

> resulted in significant increases in alpha-LA

> concentrations in the plasma phospholipid, cholesteryl

> ester, and triglyceride fractions (eightfold increase)

> and neutrophil phospholipids (50% increase). EPA

> concentrations increased by 2.5-fold in the plasma

> lipid fractions and neutrophil phospholipids. After

> fish-oil supplementation EPA concentrations increased

> in parallel in both dietary groups, remaining higher

> in the flaxseed group for both the plasma lipid

> fractions and neutrophil phospholipids. The results

> indicate that alpha-LA-rich vegetable oils can be used

> in a domestic setting (in conjunction with a

> background diet low in LA) to elevate EPA in tissues

> to concentrations comparable with those associated

> with fish-oil supplementation.

>

> PMID: 7910999

>

>

>

> Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Mar;49(3):169-78. Links

> Supplementation with flaxseed oil versus sunflowerseed

> oil in healthy young men consuming a low fat diet:

> effects on platelet composition and function.Allman

> MA, Pena MM, Pang D.

> Department of Biochemistry, University of Sydney,

> Australia.

>

> OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of supplementing a

> low fat diet with an alpha-linolenic acid-rich (C18:3

> n-3) oil with a linoleic acid-rich (C18:2 n-6) oil on

> platelet composition and function. DESIGN: Prospective

> study with random allocation to one of the two oils.

> SETTING: Free-living study. SUBJECTS: Eleven healthy

> young males recruited from within the University.

> INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were allocated to consume 40 g

> of either flaxseed oil (n = 5) or sunflowerseed oil (n

> = 6) daily for 23 days. Fasting blood samples were

> collected at commencement and completion of

> supplementation for analysis of platelet fatty acids

> and platelet aggregation. RESULTS: The platelet

> eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) more than doubled in the

> group taking flaxseed oil (P < 0.05) but was unchanged

> in the sunflowerseed group. As a result the platelet

> EPA:arachidonic acid ratio, considered a marker for

> thromboxane production and platelet aggregation

> potential, increased in the flaxseed group (P < 0.05).

> The aggregation response induced by 0.75 and 2

> micrograms of collagen was decreased in those taking

> flaxseed oil (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: This study

> provides further evidence that consumption of

> alpha-linolenic acid-rich oils may offer protective

> effects against cardiovascular disease over linoleic

> acid-rich oils via their ability to decrease the

> tendency of platelets to aggregate.

>

> PMID: 7774533

>

> Eur J Clin Nutr. 1996 Apr;50(4):229-35. Links

> Alpha-linolenic acid in rapeseed oil partly

> compensates for the effect of fish restriction on

> plasma long chain n-3 fatty acids.Valsta LM, Salminen

> I, Aro A, Mutanen M.

> Department of Nutrition, National Public Health

> Institute, Helsinki, Finland.

>

> OBJECTIVE: To examine the ability of alpha-linolenic

> acid (ALA) in low erucic acid rapeseed oil (RO) to

> compensate for the effects of a restriction in fish

> intake on plasma fatty acid composition. DESIGN AND

> SUBJECTS: Two times 6 weeks' randomized dietary

> intervention was used with blind crossover design in

> 40 healthy unconfined women and men (age 20-46y).

> INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were assigned to two fish

> restricted diets, namely RO diet and Trisun-sunflower

> oil (TSO) diet, with similar proportions of saturated:

> monounsaturated : polyunsaturated fatty acids

> (11.5:17.5:8.5% of total energy, En%), but differing

> in their ALA content (2.2 and 0.3 En%) and n-6 :

> n-3-ratio (3 : 1 and 23 : 1, respectively). The fatty

> acid compositions of plasma triglycerides (TG),

> cholesterol esters (CE), and phospholipids (PL) were

> analyzed by gas chromatography. Dietary intake was

> evaluated based on 3- to 7-day food records. RESULTS:

> The proportion of TG and CE ALA decreased on the TSO

> diet (from 1.6% to 0.9% and from 0.9% to 0.4%,

> respectively, P < 0.001) and increased on the RO diet

> (from 1.7% to 3.4% and from 0.9% to 1.3%,

> respectively, P < 0.001) compared to the baseline

> level. The proportion of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)

> in all three plasma fractions decreased on the TSO

> diet but not on the RO diet. The proportions of

> docosa-hexaenoic acid (DHA) decreased on both

> experimental diets and there was no difference in CE

> DHA between the diets. PL docosa-pentaenoic acid (DPA)

> and PL DHA remained at a higher level on the RO diet

> compared to the TSO diet (P < 0.001 and P < 0.05,

> respectively). CONCLUSIONS: ALA is metabolized to EPA

> in humans to a significant extent. The degree to which

> rapeseed oil (ca 50g/day) affects the proportion of

> EPA resembled the effect of a weekly portion (50-100g)

> of fatty fish depending on the fat content of the

> fish.

>

> PMID: 8730609

>

> Br J Nutr. 1993 Mar;69(2):443-53. Links High

> alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum

> usitatissimum): some nutritional properties in

> humans.Cunnane SC, Ganguli S, Menard C, Liede AC,

> Hamadeh MJ, Chen ZY, Wolever TM, DJ.

> Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of

> Medicine, University of Toronto, Canada.

>

> Although high alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum

> usitatissimum) is one of the richest dietary sources

> of alpha-linolenic acid and is also a good source of

> soluble fibre mucilage, it is relatively unstudied in

> human nutrition. Healthy female volunteers consumed 50

> g ground, raw flaxseed/d for 4 weeks which provided

> 12-13% of energy intake (24-25 g/100 g total fat).

> Flaxseed raised alpha-linolenic acid and long-chain

> n-3 fatty acids in both plasma and erythrocyte lipids,

> as well as raising urinary thiocyanate excretion

> 2.2-fold. Flaxseed also lowered serum total

> cholesterol by 9% and

> low-density-lipoprotein-cholesterol by 18%. Changes in

> plasma alpha-linolenic acid were equivalent when 12 g

> alpha-linolenic acid/d was provided as raw flaxseed

> flour (50 g/d) or flaxseed oil (20 g/d) suggesting

> high bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid from

> ground flaxseed. Test meals containing 50 g

> carbohydrate from flaxseed or 25 g flaxseed mucilage

> each significantly decreased postprandial blood

> glucose responses by 27%. Malondialdehyde levels in

> muffins containing 15 g flaxseed oil or flour/kg were

> similar to those in wheat-flour muffins. Cyanogenic

> glycosides (linamarin, linustatin, neolinustatin) were

> highest in extracted flaxseed mucilage but were not

> detected in baked muffins containing 150 g

> flaxseed/kg. We conclude that up to 50 g

> high-alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed/d is palatable,

> safe and may be nutritionally beneficial in humans by

> raising n-3 fatty acids in plasma and erythrocytes and

> by decreasing postprandial glucose responses.

>

> PMID: 8098222

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff provided the following studies, which I've trimmed to just their

titles and PMID's, that appear to show conversion from ALA to EPA is

performed quite well enough for our needs. DHA, when mentioned at

all, seemed to be a different story. Perhaps this is why the

vegetarian supplements are mostly of the DHA variety? Or is there no

non-animal source of EPA?

Thanks,

-

--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 Jun;59(6):1304-9. Dietary

> substitution with an alpha-linolenic acid-rich

> vegetable oil increases eicosapentaenoic acid

> concentrations in tissues.Mantzioris E, MJ,

> Gibson RA, Cleland LG.

> Rheumatology Unit, Royal Adelaide Hospital, Australia.

>

> PMID: 7910999

>

> Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Mar;49(3):169-78. Links

> Supplementation with flaxseed oil versus sunflowerseed

> oil in healthy young men consuming a low fat diet:

> effects on platelet composition and function.Allman

> MA, Pena MM, Pang D.

> Department of Biochemistry, University of Sydney,

> Australia.

>

> PMID: 7774533

>

> Eur J Clin Nutr. 1996 Apr;50(4):229-35. Links

> Alpha-linolenic acid in rapeseed oil partly

> compensates for the effect of fish restriction on

> plasma long chain n-3 fatty acids.Valsta LM, Salminen

> I, Aro A, Mutanen M.

> Department of Nutrition, National Public Health

> Institute, Helsinki, Finland.

>

> PMID: 8730609

>

> Br J Nutr. 1993 Mar;69(2):443-53. Links High

> alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum

> usitatissimum): some nutritional properties in

> humans.Cunnane SC, Ganguli S, Menard C, Liede AC,

> Hamadeh MJ, Chen ZY, Wolever TM, DJ.

> Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of

> Medicine, University of Toronto, Canada.

>

> PMID: 8098222

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Here the suggested daily intake of preformed EPA + DHA is 0.65 g / day with a min of 0.22 g each. Assuming there was enough lengthening and double bond creating enzymes available you would need to eat about 13 g of ALA which would also eliminate the necessary good part of the GLA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-linolenic_acid conversion to DGLA (a good Omega 6 fatty acid) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihomo-gamma-linolenic_acid process as the same initial lengthening enzyme is used.for both GLA and ALA lengthening. Also having unconverted GLA in the blood is not desirable.

http://www.issfal.org.uk/Welcome/AdequateIntakes.asp

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

Essential or not, many studies have shown beneficialhealth outcomes (including mood stabilization with highEPA doses, lower dementia risk with high serum DHA)associated with higher intakes of marine omega-3 oils.

On 11/18/06, Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...> wrote:

The body can make EPA from ALA and the body can backconvert DHA to EPA..Thats why EPA and DHA are not considered "essential"and only ALA and LA are.As the review article I posted last week suggested,aquatic sources of EFAs may not be neccessaryRegardsJeff

..

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/537 - Release Date: 17/11/2006 5:56 PM

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

We need about 0.65 g / day of EPA + DHA and you just can't get that from ALA

conversion. Higher intakes of EPA have been shown to be beneficial to some

individuals.

http://www.issfal.org.uk/Welcome/AdequateIntakes.asp

As for EPA availability, I don't know of any non fish source of any

significance.

Greg

[ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

> Jeff provided the following studies, which I've trimmed to just their

> titles and PMID's, that appear to show conversion from ALA to EPA is

> performed quite well enough for our needs. DHA, when mentioned at

> all, seemed to be a different story. Perhaps this is why the

> vegetarian supplements are mostly of the DHA variety? Or is there no

> non-animal source of EPA?

>

> Thanks,

> -

>

>

>

>>

>> Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 Jun;59(6):1304-9. Dietary

>> substitution with an alpha-linolenic acid-rich

>> vegetable oil increases eicosapentaenoic acid

>> concentrations in tissues.Mantzioris E, MJ,

>> Gibson RA, Cleland LG.

>> Rheumatology Unit, Royal Adelaide Hospital, Australia.

>>

>> PMID: 7910999

>>

>> Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Mar;49(3):169-78. Links

>> Supplementation with flaxseed oil versus sunflowerseed

>> oil in healthy young men consuming a low fat diet:

>> effects on platelet composition and function.Allman

>> MA, Pena MM, Pang D.

>> Department of Biochemistry, University of Sydney,

>> Australia.

>>

>> PMID: 7774533

>>

>> Eur J Clin Nutr. 1996 Apr;50(4):229-35. Links

>> Alpha-linolenic acid in rapeseed oil partly

>> compensates for the effect of fish restriction on

>> plasma long chain n-3 fatty acids.Valsta LM, Salminen

>> I, Aro A, Mutanen M.

>> Department of Nutrition, National Public Health

>> Institute, Helsinki, Finland.

>>

>> PMID: 8730609

>>

>> Br J Nutr. 1993 Mar;69(2):443-53. Links High

>> alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum

>> usitatissimum): some nutritional properties in

>> humans.Cunnane SC, Ganguli S, Menard C, Liede AC,

>> Hamadeh MJ, Chen ZY, Wolever TM, DJ.

>> Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of

>> Medicine, University of Toronto, Canada.

>>

>> PMID: 8098222

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I with you on this one Dr D.,

I have found I need some AA/ALA for skin health and that may have nothing to do with making eicos.

Also I think I need some EPA/DHA just in case the EPA/DHA pathways don't work so well at age. I'm not convinced we know the aging effects that well.

Also medications like ASA can interfere with the AA and EPA pathways.

But I don't use the FO caps. I use cod liver oil 1/2 tsp.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

Essential or not, many studies have shown beneficialhealth outcomes (including mood stabilization with highEPA doses, lower dementia risk with high serum DHA)associated with higher intakes of marine omega-3 oils.

On 11/18/06, Jeff Novick <chefjeff40 > wrote:

The body can make EPA from ALA and the body can backconvert DHA to EPA..Thats why EPA and DHA are not considered "essential"and only ALA and LA are.As the review article I posted last week suggested,aquatic sources of EFAs may not be neccessaryRegardsJeff

..

[Guest guest]

While it may vary with age and health/medical status,

humans can convert ALA to EPA and DHA and also back

convert DHA to EPA. My bias is to discuss what is

known regardless of whether you or I decide to eat

fish or take fish oil, as there are many who dont.

The NSA set the AI at 1.1 for women and 1.6 for men

last year.

Jeff

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/422.html

From The 2005 National Acadamy Of Science

Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate,

Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and

Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2005)

Food and Nutrition Board (FNB)

An AI is set for & #945;-linolenic acid based on median

intakes in the United States where an n-3 fatty acid

deficiency is nonexistent in healthy individuals. The

AI is 1.6 and 1.1 g/d for men and women, respectively.

And..

Studies using isotopically labeled & #945;-linolenic

acid, however, have shown that adults and newborn

infants can desaturate and elongate & #945;-linolenic

acid to form DHA (Carnielli et al., 1996b; Salem et

al., 1996; Sauerwald et al., 1996, 1997; Uauy et al.,

2000a; Vermunt et al., 2000). Recent studies with

infants have shown that the rates of conversion of

& #945;-linolenic acid to DHA appear to be higher in

preterm infants and decrease with increasing

gestational age (Uauy et al., 2000a). These types of

studies have also shown that high intakes of

& #945;-linolenic acid result in reduced conversion to

DHA (Vermunt et al., 2000).

Whereas the retroconversion of adrenic acid to

maintain tissue arachidonic acid requires the removal

of only a single 2-carbon unit, the retroconversion of

DHA to EPA is more complex and involves the removal of

the double bond at the & #916;4 position, in addition

to a 2-carbon unit. Supplementation with DHA is

accompanied by an increase in EPA, which could be

explained by retroconversion of DHA to EPA or by

inhibition of further metabolism of EPA formed from

& #945;-linolenic acid (Brossard et al., 1996; Conquer

and Holub, 1996; et al., 1997; Vidgren et al.,

1997).

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim,

Making healthy skin is ALL about a balance between the two families of eicosanoids and that balance is determined by the Omega 3 and Omega 6 short and long chain fatty acids that are in the cell membrane walls and the balance of those fats are a direct result of the fatty acids you eat.

Checkout:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/ods.html

Download KIM:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/kim1.html

Your skin will thank you.

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

Essential or not, many studies have shown beneficialhealth outcomes (including mood stabilization with highEPA doses, lower dementia risk with high serum DHA)associated with higher intakes of marine omega-3 oils.

On 11/18/06, Jeff Novick <chefjeff40 > wrote:

The body can make EPA from ALA and the body can backconvert DHA to EPA..Thats why EPA and DHA are not considered "essential"and only ALA and LA are.As the review article I posted last week suggested,aquatic sources of EFAs may not be neccessaryRegardsJeff

..

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/537 - Release Date: 17/11/2006 5:56 PM

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff,

I have worked on 0.65 g of EPA + DHA per day as a min as was suggested by a

working group back in 2000. At a conversion efficiency of 5% you would need

to eat 13 g of ALA, which is not a good idea as you would totally chew up

the available elongation and double bonding enzymes also needed to do the

Omega 6 LA to DGLA conversion.

While there may be a few papers which suggest we can get by on ALA to EPA

internal conversion, the vast majority suggest we need much more.

Additionally we need to manage the balance between the short and long chain

Omega 3s and 6s.

Have a play with KIM and see if you can get anything like a balanced

eicosanoid ratio eating only ALA as your Omega 3 fatty acid source. KIM

makes it very clear the ALA only pathway is suboptimal.

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

> While it may vary with age and health/medical status,

> humans can convert ALA to EPA and DHA and also back

> convert DHA to EPA. My bias is to discuss what is

> known regardless of whether you or I decide to eat

> fish or take fish oil, as there are many who dont.

>

> The NSA set the AI at 1.1 for women and 1.6 for men

> last year.

>

> Jeff

>

> http://www.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/422.html

>

> From The 2005 National Acadamy Of Science

>

> Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate,

> Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and

> Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2005)

> Food and Nutrition Board (FNB)

>

> An AI is set for & #945;-linolenic acid based on median

> intakes in the United States where an n-3 fatty acid

> deficiency is nonexistent in healthy individuals. The

> AI is 1.6 and 1.1 g/d for men and women, respectively.

>

> And..

>

> Studies using isotopically labeled & #945;-linolenic

> acid, however, have shown that adults and newborn

> infants can desaturate and elongate & #945;-linolenic

> acid to form DHA (Carnielli et al., 1996b; Salem et

> al., 1996; Sauerwald et al., 1996, 1997; Uauy et al.,

> 2000a; Vermunt et al., 2000). Recent studies with

> infants have shown that the rates of conversion of

> & #945;-linolenic acid to DHA appear to be higher in

> preterm infants and decrease with increasing

> gestational age (Uauy et al., 2000a). These types of

> studies have also shown that high intakes of

> & #945;-linolenic acid result in reduced conversion to

> DHA (Vermunt et al., 2000).

>

> Whereas the retroconversion of adrenic acid to

> maintain tissue arachidonic acid requires the removal

> of only a single 2-carbon unit, the retroconversion of

> DHA to EPA is more complex and involves the removal of

> the double bond at the & #916;4 position, in addition

> to a 2-carbon unit. Supplementation with DHA is

> accompanied by an increase in EPA, which could be

> explained by retroconversion of DHA to EPA or by

> inhibition of further metabolism of EPA formed from

> & #945;-linolenic acid (Brossard et al., 1996; Conquer

> and Holub, 1996; et al., 1997; Vidgren et al.,

> 1997).

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff,

Let me ask a different question. If I am eating at the low end of energy, like 1800 kcals, how do I guard against my system using the EFA's and perhaps the FO's for energy?

I just hafta think the little bit of EFA's in a low fat diet would get oxidized quickly.

Do I use a diet with more fat?

regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

While it may vary with age and health/medical status,humans can convert ALA to EPA and DHA and also backconvert DHA to EPA. My bias is to discuss what isknown regardless of whether you or I decide to eatfish or take fish oil, as there are many who dont.The NSA set the AI at 1.1 for women and 1.6 for menlast year. Jeffhttp://www.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/422.htmlFrom The 2005 National Acadamy Of ScienceDietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate,Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, andAmino Acids (Macronutrients) (2005)Food and Nutrition Board (FNB)An AI is set for & #945;-linolenic acid based on medianintakes in the United States where an n-3 fatty aciddeficiency is nonexistent in healthy individuals. TheAI is 1.6 and 1.1 g/d for men and women, respectively.And..Studies using isotopically labeled & #945;-linolenicacid, however, have shown that adults and newborninfants can desaturate and elongate & #945;-linolenicacid to form DHA (Carnielli et al., 1996b; Salem etal., 1996; Sauerwald et al., 1996, 1997; Uauy et al.,2000a; Vermunt et al., 2000). Recent studies withinfants have shown that the rates of conversion of & #945;-linolenic acid to DHA appear to be higher inpreterm infants and decrease with increasinggestational age (Uauy et al., 2000a). These types ofstudies have also shown that high intakes of & #945;-linolenic acid result in reduced conversion toDHA (Vermunt et al., 2000).Whereas the retroconversion of adrenic acid tomaintain tissue arachidonic acid requires the removalof only a single 2-carbon unit, the retroconversion ofDHA to EPA is more complex and involves the removal ofthe double bond at the & #916;4 position, in additionto a 2-carbon unit. Supplementation with DHA isaccompanied by an increase in EPA, which could beexplained by retroconversion of DHA to EPA or byinhibition of further metabolism of EPA formed from & #945;-linolenic acid (Brossard et al., 1996; Conquerand Holub, 1996; et al., 1997; Vidgren et al.,1997).

[Guest guest]

The 2005 NAS Committee that published the paper I

linked to was not as convinced about the data as you

are. They still list only ALA and LA as essential

and that human conversion for EPA and DHA is adequate.

The paper is less than one year old. Apparently the

available data is not as one sided as you stated.

The backconversion of DHA to EPA has been shown to be

around 10% Conquer JA, Holub BJ. Supplementation with

an algae source of docosahexaenoic acid increases

(n-3) fatty acid status and alters selected risk

factors for heart disease in vegetarian subjects. J

Nutr. 1996 Dec;126(12):3032-9.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Deja Vu all over again.

Seriously, guys the average American eats enough grease he could never encounter EFAD.

With a CR diet it is more likely. If you eat JUST enough soy oil (1/2 oz) to get your LA, ALA, and you are say 10% under your BMR for intake, your body will burn those fatty acids for energy.

Chapter 8 of NAP IOM

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/487.html

discusses the specifics ad nauseam except for CRONies.

I must eat enough oil so the EFA's and/or EPA/DHA are not scavenged for energy.

In a low fat diet, I experienced the dusty elbows, first sign of inadequate EFA's. A low fat diet of say 3000 kcals may be adequate for most, may be ideal to heal/prevent CVD - but an 1800 kcal diet - different story.

So my question for several years was how to protect those EFA's and the simple solution was to increase oils. The real issue is which oil (we don't eat fatty acids), or combination of oils provide the optimum for an 1800 kcal diet.

Since there are articles linking ALA with PCa, eg, one would tend to think a mono would be best just for the energy. Also the IOM identifies an increasing risk for CVD with sat fats, so a mono oil might be indicated. BUT:

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/486.html

"Hazard Identification

Cardiovascular Disease. Within the range of usual intake, there are no clearly established adverse effects of n-9 monounsaturated fatty acids in humans. There is some preliminary evidence that a meal providing 50 g of fat from olive oil reduced brachial artery flow-mediated vasodilation by 31 percent in 10 healthy, normolipidemic individuals versus canola oil or salmon (Vogel et al., 2000). In addition, there is evidence from nonhuman primates that a diet rich in n-9 monounsaturated fatty acids promotes atherosclerosis just as much as a diet containing isocaloric amounts of saturated or polyunsaturated fatty acids (Rudel et al., 1997)."

What to do?

Decide for myself is what I must do, and that is to first use the fatty acids available in foods, like raw walnuts for LA/ALA. A 1/2 oz provides 4.5/0.97 "costing" 96 kcals. My 1/2 tsp of CLO proivdes 0.16/0.26, EPA/DHA costing 21 kcals.

Adding 0.5 oz of olive oil provides more LA/ALA bringing my intake in line with Modern Nutrition's 8/2 req't. You might want to use more walnuts.

Just my way of balancing the energy req'ts.

EFA's, EPA/DHA are easy to get.

There is the idea that the body makes fat, palmitate, ie, from a say 65% carb diet. I really doubt that preserves the LA/ALA from conversion to energy. So I have now opted for a higher fat % and I balance the fat/carbs like 42/42.

I would also appreciate some discussion from the experts, since I'm no expert. I'm just trying to understand what the heavies are saying - how to apply it to my 1800 kcals.

Regards

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

Hi Jim,

Making healthy skin is ALL about a balance between the two families of eicosanoids and that balance is determined by the Omega 3 and Omega 6 short and long chain fatty acids that are in the cell membrane walls and the balance of those fats are a direct result of the fatty acids you eat.

Checkout:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/ods.html

Download KIM:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/kim1.html

Your skin will thank you.

Greg

.. d

[Guest guest]

From: " Jeff Novick " <chefjeff40@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:05 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

> The 2005 NAS Committee that published the paper I

> linked to was not as convinced about the data as you

> are.

With respect there are so many papers published on EPA and DHA that I'm sure

you can pick and choose to post what you wish. But you can't ignore the

eicosanoid balancing issue and if you have had a go with KIM you will

discover that no matter what you choose to eat, you can't get an optimal

balance without eating preformed EPA.

> They still list only ALA and LA as essential

> and that human conversion for EPA and DHA is adequate.

Adequate for what? Optimal nutrition?

> The paper is less than one year old. Apparently the

> available data is not as one sided as you stated.

>

> The backconversion of DHA to EPA has been shown to be

> around 10% Conquer JA, Holub BJ. Supplementation with

> an algae source of docosahexaenoic acid increases

> (n-3) fatty acid status and alters selected risk

> factors for heart disease in vegetarian subjects.

Note well the last line which suggests vegetarians are at elevated risk for

heart disease. Anyway if you have selected a vegetarian lifestyle then you

don't need medical research papers to back up your eating choices decision

so why not just leave science out of it? But if you wish to continue the

science at a back conversion of 10% you will need to eat about 10 g of DHA

per day to get enough to help your EPA minimal cell membrane balance. I for

one would not suggest to anyone to eat 10 g per day of DHA, especially as it

is 50 times more sensitive to free radical attack than EPA.

Again try to run your diet through KIM and look at what it is telling you.

Greg

[Guest guest]

> With respect there are so many papers published on

> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

perhaps the most respected scientific organization

there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

It might help those on the list if you present the

recent studies supporting your position.

You might also want to check the archives for the

recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

oil

Regard

jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff,

With respect you are a vegetarian and don't eat fish. I accept your choice

and I will not try to turn you in a fish eater so please respond likewise.

As for the science are you saying eicosanoid balancing is not an important

element in obtaining optimal nutrition with reduced calories? Have you

checked out your tissue ratios via KIM? There is no anti / pro fish bias in

KIM, just the scientific numbers.

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

>> With respect there are so many papers published on

>> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

>> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

>

> The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

> perhaps the most respected scientific organization

> there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

>

> It might help those on the list if you present the

> recent studies supporting your position.

>

> You might also want to check the archives for the

> recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

> oil

>

> Regard

> jeff

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

You could, it seems, pick and choose your study to say

long-chain fatty acids are better than alpha-linolenic

acids, but the overall findings indicate at least some

of the former are better, it seems. See the

pdf-availed below paper.

Wang C, WS, Chung M, Lichtenstein AH, Balk EM,

Kupelnick B, Jordan HS, Lau J.

n-3 Fatty acids from fish or fish-oil supplements, but

not alpha-linolenic acid, benefit cardiovascular

disease outcomes in primary- and secondary-prevention

studies: a systematic review.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jul;84(1):5-17. Review.

PMID: 16825676

Studies on the relation between dietary n-3 fatty

acids (FAs) and cardiovascular disease vary in

quality, and the results are inconsistent. A

systematic review of the literature on the effects of

n-3 FAs (consumed as fish or fish oils rich in

eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid or as

alpha-linolenic acid) on cardiovascular disease

outcomes and adverse events was conducted. Studies

from MEDLINE and other sources that were of > or =1 y

in duration and that reported estimates of fish or n-3

FA intakes and cardiovascular disease outcomes were

included. Secondary prevention was addressed in 14

randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of fish-oil

supplements or of diets high in n-3 FAs and in 1

prospective cohort study. Most trials reported that

fish oil significantly reduced all-cause mortality,

myocardial infarction, cardiac and sudden death, or

stroke. Primary prevention of cardiovascular disease

was reported in 1 RCT, in 25 prospective cohort

studies, and in 7 case-control studies. No significant

effect on overall deaths was reported in 3 RCTs that

evaluated the effects of fish oil in patients with

implantable cardioverter defibrillators. Most cohort

studies reported that fish consumption was associated

with lower rates of all-cause mortality and adverse

cardiac outcomes. The effects on stroke were

inconsistent. Evidence suggests that increased

consumption of n-3 FAs from fish or fish-oil

supplements, but not of alpha-linolenic acid, reduces

the rates of all-cause mortality, cardiac and sudden

death, and possibly stroke. The evidence for the

benefits of fish oil is stronger in secondary- than in

primary-prevention settings. Adverse effects appear to

be minor.

-- Al Pater, PhD; email: Alpater@...

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near 39yr lows.

$310k for $999/mo. Calculate new payment!

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[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

It seems to me there have been a lot of posts lately making

categorical statements about what is the appropriate quantity and

types of fats to eat, especially regarding ratios between w-3 and w-6.

Did I miss the posts that provided the references which contained the

evidence that supports the statements made? I.E. That some

particular amount, or ratio, results in superior health, or longer

average lifespan?

The results of various Ornish and Pritikin studies (in humans) we are

familiar with. And the Nurses' Health Study findings about fats have

often been posted here. But from what I recall I do not think they

analyzed the results for people consuming different ratios.

Some here prefer to see results from empirical studies demonstrating

benefit, before making major decisions about changing feeding

habits. Especially if their biomarkers suggest they are not sick

before considering making a change!

Rodney.

>

> Hi Jeff,

>

> With respect you are a vegetarian and don't eat fish. I accept your

choice

> and I will not try to turn you in a fish eater so please respond

likewise.

>

> As for the science are you saying eicosanoid balancing is not an

important

> element in obtaining optimal nutrition with reduced calories? Have

you

> checked out your tissue ratios via KIM? There is no anti / pro fish

bias in

> KIM, just the scientific numbers.

>

> Greg

>

> Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

>

>

> >> With respect there are so many papers published on

> >> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

> >> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

> >

> > The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

> > perhaps the most respected scientific organization

> > there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

> >

> > It might help those on the list if you present the

> > recent studies supporting your position.

> >

> > You might also want to check the archives for the

> > recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

> > oil

> >

> > Regard

> > jeff

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Rodney,

The evidence is contained in the National Institutes of Health web site on

eicosanoids and Omega 3 and 6 balancing at:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/ods.html

There are many papers as well as videos of paper presentations. Also there

is the KIM software package that they developed:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/kim1.html

It works a lot like DWIDP so input your diet and see what the results are

instead of asking for papers as both the web site and KIM are the result of

the papers.

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

>>

>>

>> >> With respect there are so many papers published on

>> >> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

>> >> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

>> >

>> > The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

>> > perhaps the most respected scientific organization

>> > there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

>> >

>> > It might help those on the list if you present the

>> > recent studies supporting your position.

>> >

>> > You might also want to check the archives for the

>> > recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

>> > oil

>> >

>> > Regard

>> > jeff

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

> You could, it seems, pick and choose your study to

> say > long-chain fatty acids are better than

> alpha-linolenic acids, but the overall findings

indicate at least some of the former are better, it

seems. See the > pdf-availed below paper.

Thanks Al.

Remember... in the famous Lyon Heart Trial (which is

considered THE Mediterranean Diet Study).. heart

disease was reduced by 72%.. not by fish, or by olive

oil, but by adding canola oil. It also reduced the

rate of cancer.

Omega 3s as either fish, canola oil, soybean oil or

mustard seed oil reduced death 26% to 60% in the Lyon

Heart Trial, the 1000 subject Indo-Mediterranean Diet

Study, the 2000 subject DART study and the 11,0000

subject GISSI study.

These are all very well known, often cited studies,

with most having at least one if not several follow up

studies also published. All references have been

posted before and can be reposted, but here are two

for now.

Mediterranean diet, traditional risk factors, and the

rate of cardiovascular complications after myocardial

infarction: final report of the Lyon Diet Heart Study.

Circulation. 1999 Feb 16;99(6):779-85. PMID: 9989963

Effect of an Indo-Mediterranean diet on progression of

coronary artery disease in high risk patients

(Indo-Mediterranean Diet Heart Study): a randomised

single-blind trial. Lancet. 2002 Nov

9;360(9344):1455-61. PMID: 12433513

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg:

Thank you for responding to my post. You say: " The evidence is

contained in the National Institutes of Health web site on

eicosanoids and Omega 3 and 6 balancing at:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/ods.html "

But the links you provide do not supply any evidence. They simply

make another bunch of categorical statements with no support. Many

of us around here are not as interested in people's opinions, no

matter how illustrious the authors may (consider themselves to?) be,

as much as in the evidence that led them to hold those opinions.

Then we can decide for ourselves whether we feel the nature of the

evidence is of the kind that would convince us that the assertions

are likely to be reliable. And for many of us bald statements, on

their own, without referenced papers which found health or longevity

benefits, do not qualify.

[Now, as many here know, I am not unamenable to the idea that fat

from marine sources is healthier than land-animal or vegetable

sources of fat. As I have said here numerous (too many?!) times I go

to the trouble to eat some fish almost every day; and also that I try

to restrict my total fat intake to below twenty percent of total

calories but sometimes have trouble largely because of my fish

intake. So I am not trying to discredit what you are saying. I

would be positively delighted to see evidence that what I have been

doing for years may actually have been, fortuitously, helpful.]

So, may I ask if you know of studies where subjects (humans or

monkeys, or other mammals with susceptibilities to CVD and cancer

similar to those of humans) were fed varying ratios of w-6 to w-3 and

statistically significant benefits were consistently found in health

biomarkers, disease incidence or average lifespan at some particular

ratio? This, it seems to me, is the the kind of information I would

consider to constitute evidence supporting the claims.

The custom around here is, wherever possible, to reference recent

papers accessible at Pubmed. That way we can go read the abstract

and decide if it appears relevant, and interesting enough, to go to

the trouble to find the full text.

Thank you.

Rodney.

> >>

> >> Hi Jeff,

> >>

> >> With respect you are a vegetarian and don't eat fish. I accept

your

> > choice

> >> and I will not try to turn you in a fish eater so please respond

> > likewise.

> >>

> >> As for the science are you saying eicosanoid balancing is not an

> > important

> >> element in obtaining optimal nutrition with reduced calories?

Have

> > you

> >> checked out your tissue ratios via KIM? There is no anti / pro

fish

> > bias in

> >> KIM, just the scientific numbers.

> >>

> >> Greg

> >>

> >> Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

> >>

> >>

> >> >> With respect there are so many papers published on

> >> >> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

> >> >> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

> >> >

> >> > The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

> >> > perhaps the most respected scientific organization

> >> > there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

> >> >

> >> > It might help those on the list if you present the

> >> > recent studies supporting your position.

> >> >

> >> > You might also want to check the archives for the

> >> > recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

> >> > oil

> >> >

> >> > Regard

> >> > jeff

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Rodney,

I'm not an expert on eicosanoid signalling and how it is effected by the

balance in Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids in the cell membrane but those in the

NIH who created the web site are. I also suggest posting isolated papers can

be found to support almost any point of view and posting such papers do

little to support anything more than a personal point of view as, with

respect, we are not experts in the field.

However the creators of the site are eicosanoid signalling experts,

have looked at all the papers, have created some of the papers themselves

and have attempted to put it all together in a such a way that intelligent

lay folks can understand what balancing eicosanoid production is all about

I suggest these to review:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/annotated2.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/relatedw.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/video.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/overview1.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/workshop1.html

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> >> With respect there are so many papers published on

>> >> >> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

>> >> >> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

>> >> >

>> >> > The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

>> >> > perhaps the most respected scientific organization

>> >> > there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

>> >> >

>> >> > It might help those on the list if you present the

>> >> > recent studies supporting your position.

>> >> >

>> >> > You might also want to check the archives for the

>> >> > recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

>> >> > oil

>> >> >

>> >> > Regard

>> >> > jeff

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

[Guest guest]

Greg: you have been given ample board space to be heard on this. Unless there's something new, let's move on please.

on 11/21/2006 8:51 PM, Greg at greg.watson@... wrote:

Hi Rodney,

I'm not an expert on eicosanoid signalling and how it is effected by the

balance in Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids in the cell membrane but those in the

NIH who created the web site are. I also suggest posting isolated papers can

be found to support almost any point of view and posting such papers do

little to support anything more than a personal point of view as, with

respect, we are not experts in the field.

However the creators of the site are eicosanoid signalling experts,

have looked at all the papers, have created some of the papers themselves

and have attempted to put it all together in a such a way that intelligent

lay folks can understand what balancing eicosanoid production is all about

I suggest these to review:

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/annotated2.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/relatedw.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/video.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/overview1.html

http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/workshop1.html

Greg

Re: [ ] Re: Fish Oil and Oxidation Products

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> >> With respect there are so many papers published on

>> >> >> EPA and DHA that I'm sure

>> >> >> you can pick and choose to post what you wish.

>> >> >

>> >> > The NAS is more than just picking and choosing. It is

>> >> > perhaps the most respected scientific organization

>> >> > there is. This is the recent update on EFAs.

>> >> >

>> >> > It might help those on the list if you present the

>> >> > recent studies supporting your position.

>> >> >

>> >> > You might also want to check the archives for the

>> >> > recent article discussions on EPA/DHA and also olive

>> >> > oil

>> >> >

>> >> > Regard

>> >> > jeff

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg:

Thank you for those links. Especially the first one which provides

quite a few relevant references. However, from looking at the titles

I do not see any that refer to *ratios* of w-6/w-3 fats. Nor do I

see titles which suggest empirical benefit for any particular ratio.

Although almost all of them do indicate either benefit from dietary

intake of additional w-3, or potential for harm from excessive

amounts of w-6. I will take a closer look at them on the weekend.

Also, I see there is a 'Contact Us' link on one of those pages. So I

will contact them and ask the same question.

If I can persuade myself that there is a health-maximizing 'sort-of-

magic' ratio of dietary fat intake I will pay much closer attention

to the precise amounts of my intake of the various fats than I have

been to date. All I have been doing up until now is reducing my

overall fat intake as much as possible consistent with satisfying

micronutrient RDAs, while eating perhaps 100 grams of fish daily -

often high-fat fish, but not always - and a few nuts from time to

time. I have also taken some trouble to avoid 14:0 which presumably

is important. And based on the titles of the papers listed that does

not seem to be addressed in this material either. This may be an

issue since many sources of w-3s also contain 14:0.

If I find anything of interest I will post it.

Thanks again for raising this issue. I realize this may be an aspect

of nutrition that up until now I have not paid enough attention to.

Rodney.

>

> Hi Rodney,

>

>

> I'm not an expert on eicosanoid signalling and how it is effected

by the

> balance in Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids in the cell membrane but those

in the

> NIH who created the web site are. I also suggest posting isolated

papers can

> be found to support almost any point of view and posting such

papers do

> little to support anything more than a personal point of view as,

with

> respect, we are not experts in the field.

>

> However the creators of the site are eicosanoid signalling experts,

> have looked at all the papers, have created some of the papers

themselves

> and have attempted to put it all together in a such a way that

intelligent

> lay folks can understand what balancing eicosanoid production is

all about

> I suggest these to review:

>

> http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/annotated2.html

> http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/relatedw.html

> http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/video.html

> http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/overview1.html

> http://efaeducation.nih.gov/sig/workshop1.html

>

> Greg