Re: re: inclusion, the law, and 'best for'

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/2002 7:52:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

linman42@... writes:

<< It's NYC, dont forget - LRE up the wassoo (what kind of word is that???).

And when it's time, if you need or want help, the list will guide you and I

am only a phone call away - and you know I know both sides of the fence -

the

parent and the teacher side.

>>

Thanks ! You make a lot of sense. I can't see why they wouldn't want

to give him a chance. He's a nice guy.

Kathy, Liam's mom(4)

June 18, 2002

Funny, I think as a woman, I would fight for my rights, but not to the extent

that I do for my children. I would just do what I wanted to do anyway,

but not feel that I needed to make a real difference for others.

I agree that I would relate this more to racial issues. For THAT I would and

do fight hard. We are a mixed race family and it's amazing the

discrimination against my kids still today! And it's so much the same as the

discrimination against Mav.

(who met my husband 24 yrs ago wearing a Tshirt that said, " A woman

without a man, is like a fish without a bicycle!! " ..... lol...it got his

attention!)

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/2002 8:42:13 PM Central Standard Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> Kathy mom to Sara 10..........sometimes I compare the woman's movement to

> rights for the disabled, now as woman we would fight to have choices right?

> this is why I will always fight for Sara.........in my way and my time

>

> That is funny you relate the two. For me, I relate advocacy for our

> children with discrimination against color. Luther King fought for

> civil rights for ALL...he's become my hero. As the black population has

> made great strides (and women, too), there is still discrimination going

> on. One of my favorite coworkers is black and hispanic. She has three

> master's degrees and has the morals of the pope. She could work just about

> anywhere and make big bucks, but her heart is with abused and neglected

> kids. Recently, she went into a store, following a mother and young

> daughter. The little girl was holding the door open for her when the

> mother turned and said to her daughter " You don't hold the door for those

> people " . I know that pain, it's the same when a mother tells her child to

> get away from .

>

HI

I don't know why I relate the two lolololol maybe because of the

discrimination we still receive being a woman. Even hubby with a heart of

gold will make some realllllllllllllllllllllllly sexist comments and

overwhelm me with woman's work ugggggggg

In the disability circle we've come along way but still have further to

go.........Poor Pitiful Pearl (we call her Sara lol) she's hit by

discrimination doubily ....is that a word????? lol to much time in the sun

today lol anyway I know female children of color are hit harder.

Kathy mom to Sara 10............I think I just really appreciate the burning

of the bra incident lolol

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/2002 8:42:13 PM Central Standard Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> That is funny you relate the two. For me, I relate advocacy for our

> children with discrimination against color. Luther King fought for

> civil rights for ALL...he's become my hero.

HI Again

You know Ive been pondering my comparison lol and maybe the reason I don't

relate the disability issues with racial issues is because I was here in

Memphis when Luther King was killed. I was 8 or 9 and I remember

staying with my dad's sister (we had an aunt in the hospital here) I remember

the garbage piling up ....The sanitation workers were on strike I later found

out, I remember a curfew and was told we'd all be killed if we went out of

the house. My dad quickly sent us back to Milwaukee during the night. It was

bad here, at least my memories tell me this and I don't have much info since

then on the civil right movement. It's the same with the Kennedy's, I cried

when they were killed and blocked out a lot of info for that time.

Now the women's movement WOW I got to see my moms little sister arrested lol

she dressed in weird clothes and was so out spoken, the look on my grandmas

face told me that (my aunt) was now emancipated heehee I guess I liked

the look on old grandmas face, that I now enjoy it when I see it on others

......concerning my Sara heehee

Kathy mom to Sara 10..........who was named after that rebel Aunt of

mine lol boy I loved this walk down memory lane lol

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/02 10:56:45 PM Central Daylight Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> I don't know why I relate the two lolololol maybe because of the

> discrimination we still receive being a woman. Even hubby with a heart of

> gold will make some realllllllllllllllllllllllly sexist comments and

> overwhelm me with woman's work ugggggggg

>

What gets me is men who think they know more about everything BECAUSE

they are men. Like the guys from the roofing company who gave me the biggest

line of BULL I have ever heard and thought I would believe it because I'm a

dumb woman and they were MEN. Boy, I fooled them. All women know what I

mean but very few men get it.

I have always thought there couldn't be anyone more discriminated

against than a black child with DS.

And Kathy, if I'd been the right age I'd have been out there burning

my bra with you too!!!!!

Jessie, Mom to , 37 and the light of my life.

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/02 11:22:08 PM Central Daylight Time,

FlowerMommi@... writes:

> Recently, she went

> > into a store, following a mother and young daughter. The little

> > girl was holding the door open for her when the mother turned and

> > said to her daughter " You don't hold the door for those people " . I

> > know that pain, it's the same when a mother tells her child to get

> > away from .

>

You know the irony in this? We often have people hold doors for us

with the wheel chair, we can do it but it does help. Black people are much

more helpful. I have seen able bodied young white men move away so they

don't have to be bothered, not often but it has happened. Never a black

person. And often the persons least able to help are the ones who go out of

their way to help, an old man who hurries to get to the door first to hold

it, things like that. You really learn a lot pushing a wheel chair around.

For instance, once went into a rest room and seemed to never come

out. I was standing there waiting, finally I well-dressed white guy came out

and I asked him if he'd noticed a young man in a wheelchair and he barely

answered, NO. A black guy behind him s topped and told me he was washing his

hands and would be out in a minute. Since then I always ask a black guy.

I can't imagine telling a child not to hold the door for " those

people " . What a thing to teach a child!!

By the way, I push 's chair on longer distances and through

doors and such, usually inside he goes by himself. In grocery stores, or

where there are carts, I push him and he pushes the cart. We get a lot of

comments and laughs about that. He does't live in the chair with the big

wheels, and he pedals with his feet quite a bit but gets more tired on long

hauls. Besides, it keeps me from falling on my face which I have been known

to do.

Jessie, Mom to , 37 and the light of my life.

June 18, 2002

Oh no! That's just heartbreaking.

Christie

*Momi* of Sara 9, Sabaa 6, Alia 5, Hana 3 mos (DS/AV Canal Defect) and

Lily the cat!!!

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:30:03 -0400 " " <cindysue@...>

writes:

> Recently, she went

> into a store, following a mother and young daughter. The little

> girl was holding the door open for her when the mother turned and

> said to her daughter " You don't hold the door for those people " . I

> know that pain, it's the same when a mother tells her child to get

> away from .

>

June 19, 2002

Well Loree, no one on this list suggested putting children in a closet!

What was discussed was that excellent (not awful) alternate environments

with small classes and lots of individual attention might be an

alternate to inclusion sometimes.

Age equivalent peers might be wonderful sometimes, but they also can be

the source of really serious abuse to a child who is less able to cope.

I illustrated that with Jan's older brother, but some of the same

happened to her. It isn't just the one or two kids who are nice to your

child with DS .. it is also those who, out of adult sight, can be

extremely abusive. Jan expressed that clearly when interviewed some

years ago on ESPN when she said, " No one likes to be called retard. "

Inclusion should be an option, but quality alternatives (not closets or

baby sitting) should also be options. Maybe totally non-academic

classes should be options as well, but not for most of the kids I've

known.

Classroom teachers are stretched to teach their subjects to a class with

a 'normal' classroom distribution and in a normal class size. Unless

there are adequate supports (as needed by each special child in the

class), asking the teachers to cover an even broader spectrum is beyond

the reach of most (not all) teachers. I spent part of an hour this very

evening discussing this issue with an experience teacher as we did our

hike for the day. He isn't against inclusion, but unless the supports

are provided and unless the placement is appropriate, it doesn't work.

This isn't legal theory, but simple practice.

Rick

p.s. doesn't the school district fail to comply with the law just as

much if it doesn't have suitable placements for children who do not do

best in inclusive environments? That doesn't mean 'life skills' as the

only alternate coming out of kindergarten.

loree wrote:

> Unfortunately what is wrong with this thinking is that it is wrong to

> expect the school district to comply with the law. There should not

> have to be a " fight " . And to stick two children in a closet and not

> teach them is down right sinful. A teacher takes on the job of

> " teaching " , to not do so because they don't want to or because they

> might have to learn something new says alot about the power that

> teachers as a whole hold. Why should parents not expect ,no demand,

> school districts to do their jobs according to the law. Where else in

> society can you hold a job and not do what the law says, and why

> should a parent who is fighting for what they believe is best for

> their child be stone-wallled and called a trouble maker. Isn't that

> the criminal putting the victim behind bars? If we as parents don't

> demand our districts to comply with the law, they will not. I don't

> believe in fighting for fighting sake. I have an extremely good

> relationship with my school district where my 4 other children have

> attended and have written many letters of praise to my superintendant

> on behalf of a number of exceptional teachers in our district. I

> would expect the same consideration on my behalf when it comes time to

> sit down to discuss what is best for my child. Yes best, be that

> included or not either way the option should be mine. After all It's

> the Law!!!! Just my two cents worth.

>

> Loree

June 19, 2002

Kathy,

you write: >>>

I probably sparked this discussion by saying I was told I'd have to go

to

court to get Liam into a neighborhood public school. I think it's

important

to remember that it's for Kindergarten! <<<<<<<<<<

This thrust didn't start about kindergarten. Faced with my local school

district, Jan went to a private montessori school with no aides, no

accomodations, but the willingness of the teacher to take her. The

struggle came at the entry to public school where they had no knowledge

of her, but rejected her based on ds. That was one short but intense

struggle, won when Jan far exceeded expectations in the class that she

was placed in. That made the rest of her education possible.

The second level of thrust comes about puberty when the interests of the

NDA peers and our kids start really to diverge. At that point it seems

to be important to be building some intellectual peer relationships,

perhaps alongside the NDA ones. At least this is my view and that of

some other parents of older children/adults.

The third level is that quality inclusion should be an option, but also

quality programs at other levels should be available. I spoke that they

didn't have to be in district because in my mind, that wasn't as key a

parameter as quality. Life skills starting after kindergarten is not a

quality program, nor is one that baby sits instead of teaching (which

can actually happen in an inclusive classroom).

A fourth level is that quality education can actually be delivered in

special education classes and that happened for Jan. Of course this

isn't the only place that a quality education can be delivered.

Rick .......... dad to 29 year old Jan.

June 19, 2002

Yes, I've noticed this too. When the girls were toddlers and I had a

baby in the stroller people avoid me like the plague...for the ones that

took the time to help hold a door for me, I was so appreciative. It was

so few and far between that it really meant so very much when it did

happen. Now I have my own door holders!

Christie

*Momi* of Sara 9, Sabaa 6, Alia 5, Hana 3 mos (DS/AV Canal Defect) and

Lily the cat!!!

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 03:24:56 EDT JB66111@... writes:

And often the persons least able to help are the ones who go out of their

way to help, an old man who hurries to get to the door first to hold it,

things like that. You really learn a lot pushing a wheel chair around.

June 19, 2002

No Rick, no one suggested putting children in a closet on this list. But a

friend of someone on this list said it happened to her, so if it is happening,

it is happening. I have many teachers in my family that teach all different

age levels including a nephew who is employed as a special education teacher in

a reg. ed classroom along with a reg. ed teacher. This school district has

addressd your issue of teachers being stretched beyond their limits. Other

districts need to follow suit. I also agree , as I said, that not every child

should be in an inclusive enviroment, but that we as parents should have the

choice; given it's the law. So I believe we are agreeing on this point. I have,

however, seen disabled peers in self contained and non inclusive enviroments

also become the source of serious abuse to a child with a greater disability.I

have heard disabled children calling other disabled childred " retard " (I

absolutely abhor that word). It is really relative. Kids can be mean, typical

or not, unless they are taught otherwise. Parents need to be concerned with

their children's needs, not the teachers. While you are right that if they have

no support system they will not be able to educate a special needs child unless

enough parents AND teachers demand the supports to be put in place it will not

happen. This also isn't legal theory but simple common sense. Loree