Re: re: inclusion, the law, and 'best for'

June 17, 2002

Rick, They are legal RIGHTS. The school district must give parents a copy

of their LEGAL RIGHTS at every meeting and when they send notice. Many

people want their children included in every aspect of the community and

they have a legal RIGHT to be included in their neighborhood school in the

least restrictive environment. This has been interpreted by the courts to

mean that that inclusion must be tried with proper learning supports and

services and if that FAILS, a new environment (more restrictive placement)

may then be tried. School districts have one person who knows the law

usually. When parents present them with the facts, they will either develop

a good inclusive IEP or they will fight them. I believe with my whole heart

that parents know what is best for their chidren. I believe that if they

think inclusion is best, I should support them. IMHO, you and the others

who are so anti-inclusion should support their decision, just like I support

yours to not include. I think any parent who chooses self-contained knows

what is best. I do think that they should know all their options though.

Elaine

re: inclusion, the law, and 'best for'

> It is really easy to get caught up here on the 'rights' of your child or

> on a presumption that being with neighborhood kids will be best for your

> child or to think that an out of district placement will necessarily be

> bad.

>

> You have to step back and look at the big picture. Are you fighting for

> principle or because they are making you mad, or can you consider

> alternatives. We generally chose not to fight. Jan's initial placement

> in the public school system was the one exception. If someone didn't

> want Jan, we wouldn't see that they had her. We after all had our gem

> and only shared her with people who wanted her.

>

> In our case, in-district programs were inappropriate and out of district

> programs were much, much better. We had a very wide range of choices

> with teachers who got personal reward from Jan's progress and who dealt

> with her behaviour problems. When, after some years, the new Girls

> Scout leader didn't want Jan, we moved on to other things, then went

> back later to a wonderful Girl Scout camp that wanted the diversity of

> kids with handicaps.

>

> Neighborhood peers were sometimes wonderful, but also sometimes

> abusive. I remember telling the son of a boy who came over to play with

> Janet that if he wasn't nice to her, he could not come back. The long

> lasting neighborhood friends are scattered, but they still ask about her

> and sometimes she gets an email from them. Their closeness sort of

> evaporated post puberty when their interests and activities diverged.

>

> Sometimes you have to fight for your child's rights, but one has to be

> careful not to poison the environment. In the end you have to have your

> child educated by a team that you can work with and trust to bring out

> the best in your child and provide the environment that you all feel is

> best. It is easier to get people to comply than to enthusiastically

> take part. In many cases the choices are even more difficult because

> the diversity of opportunity we had for educating Jan often isn't there

> and you have to figure out how to live with a much smaller set of

> opportunities. Education isn't like Girl Scouts. You can't just walk

> away from it.

>

> Rick ..... dad to 29 year old Jan

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

June 17, 2002

In a message dated 6/17/2002 8:10:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rdill@... writes:

>

> teachers who feel that they are being forced to do something.

>

The paradigm is shifting. I am glad to hear that your daughter had a great

education.

But that was almost 10 years ago, if I have been following your thread

correctly.

I am saddened that you spent so much time finding places for your daughter

where you perceived she was " wanted " .

My daughter was not wanted at birth. I did not sign on to be a parent of a

child with Down syndrome. But I was educated by trial and error and so can

any teacher. I would love to have the power at my job to say " hey, I didn't

sign on to perform that duty " . The reality of today's workforce is an ever

changing job description. You either embrace it or move on. Why should we

expect less from teachers, especially when we pay their salaries?

I respect the job teachers do. But I am tired of hearing " I don't want to do

that " or " I can't " or " I feel I am being forced " . Get over it. 5 years ago,

the law was reauthorized and the schools still think they have an option not

to follow the law. Laws are there for a reason. My daughter has a right by

law to a free and appropriate education. To ensure this, the first

educational placement to be considered is where would she be if she didn't

have a disability. All lot of us with younger children are having this

placement not offered based on the fact or the face of mental retardation. Is

this the most appropriate placment for a child with mental retardation? No

parent will ever know unless it is tried with appropriate supports and

services. More restrictive options definitely are available later if it does

not produce measurable outcomes. But let us have access first.

Special education so far for : an example(one of many) for 4 years now,

we have had an IEP goal for her to rote count to 10. She still can't do it

consistently and gets angry when asked. Ask her to count to 50, and she takes

off. She didn't learn counting to 50 in special ed but in regular ed. She is

bored with ten and now has a mental block because of the last 4 years spent

focusing on something that wasn't as meaningful to her as 50 beans or M & M's

or just the pattern of higher numbers. Why did a " special ed " teacher not see

this? The reg ed teacher sure did. I can go on.

To include or not to include is not the question, but rather " where will your

child be educated with high expectations in mind? "

Warm regards

Becci

June 17, 2002

In a message dated 6/17/2002 10:36:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Bec4000@... writes:

> To include or not to include is not the question, but rather " where will

> your

> child be educated with high expectations in mind? "

>

Becci,

I love this quote! Thanks for sharing with us!

Really, sometimes when people propose that we limit who works with our

children to only those who say they want them, it reminds me of the

discrimination and civil rights battles that black students went through in

the 50s and 60s. Ever wonder what our schools would be like if those

students and their families waited for teachers to say they wanted them in

their classroom and just stayed in those all black schools with no books and

no resources?

Cheryl in VA

June 17, 2002

In a message dated 6/17/2002 7:10:55 PM Central Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

> Some days I fail to see the tight connection between 'least restrictive'

> and 'best educationally'. They might sometmes go together, but not

> always.

Heehee Kathy says this is why we now have choices no more one SZ fits all

or at least we fight for it lol

> environments should

> be (and perhaps also all have come to our own

> conclusions). Our household is not 'least restrictive' for any of us.

> We have some strong principles to live by.

Well, my home is, if you compare it to alternative placements like the JC,

foster care or institutions. I say my home for all of my kids is the least

restrictive environment. Now a change in placement as meant in the IDEA law

would mean one of the above alternatives, not the rules/prinicpals that exist

in the home. Every classroom has their own set of rules/prinicipals as homes

do.

Kathy mom to Sara 10........also in my district, different sped classes,

different school district, special school are not a matter of choice, you go

to your home school or request a transfer but you still have to stay in the

district, has always been like this.

June 17, 2002

Elaine writes:

Rick, They are legal RIGHTS. The school district must give parents a

copy

of their LEGAL RIGHTS at every meeting and when they send notice. Many

people want their children included in every aspect of the community and

they have a legal RIGHT to be included in their neighborhood school in

the

least restrictive environment. This has been interpreted by the courts

to

mean that that inclusion must be tried with proper learning supports and

services and if that FAILS, a new environment (more restrictive

placement)

may then be tried. [snip]

Rick replies that sometimes getting things right legally doesn't solve

the real problem of how best to obtain quality service. The question is

whether there is a solution (sped class, different school district,

special school, etc) that will do better than a school district and

teachers who feel that they are being forced to do something.

I see this in spades with Janet. If I try to hurry her to do something

against her will, she shuts down and impedes the process all the way,

even though she does what I'd requested eventually. If I work with her

a little more patiently and get her willingness, then she is super.

In dealing with Jan's upbringing, if people didn't want Janet, they

didn't get her usually. We found others or other environments that did

want Jan. Other than her initial placement in public school (outside of

the local district), we had few fights with the system and a cooperative

approach to educating our little girl. We never wanted her in the local

district because the local programs were ones that combined kids like

Jan with others with severe emotional problems and that would have been

extremely distracting.

Now, the situation anyone else has will be different than what we

faced. Still, it might sometimes be worth asking whether the best

outcome is to force an issue or to find a solution that will be embraced

willingly by all. Such things often don't exist, but it is a question

worth thinking about.

Some days I fail to see the tight connection between 'least restrictive'

and 'best educationally'. They might sometmes go together, but not

always. We have all thought about how permissive our household

envrionments should be (and perhaps also all have come to our own

conclusions). Our household is not 'least restrictive' for any of us.

We have some strong principles to live by.

Rick

June 17, 2002

In a message dated 6/17/2002 12:17:58 PM Central Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

> It is really easy to get caught up here on the 'rights' of your child or

> on a presumption that being with neighborhood kids will be best for your

> child or to think that an out of district placement will necessarily be

> bad.

>

> You have to step back and look at the big picture. Are you fighting for

> principle or because they are making you mad, or can you consider

> alternatives.

HI Rick

You don't really think that do you? That we would fight for the principal

reason only?

I can honestly say especially for this list group that we do our homework, we

obviously are concerned parents, educating ourselves with not only the law

but statistics and everything else. We meet twice a year, Ive traveled

hundreds of miles to just meet folks who are interested about their children

like I am........ so with that said no I don't fight for principal alone, I

fight for what's best for Sara

Last week I ran into a woman at the mall, she greeted Sara by her full name.

Sara was behind me so I quickly turned around. This woman was a student

teacher in Sara's kindy class (4 yrs ago), she knew Sara when her language

was just blooming, when her skills were limited. Anyway she gave me a big hug

(this is the South....all hug lol) and told me what a wonderful job I have

done with Sara. We chatted forever, well until hubby called my cell phone

requesting lunch (he was in another store lol) Point to this story, when Im

in doubt the Lord puts folks like this in my path to let me know I am making

the right choices for Sara, Sara would never thrive in a self contained

class, her sassy personality would wither and die........this is Sara.

Truthfully (I might get flamed lol) Sara might never be a rocket scientist,

she may never be more then a reader for info, she may never amount to the

equivalency of my other child BUT she will be all that she can be and she

will be happy I will TRUST her choices now, and her choice now is to be

with her typical peers, to learn about TN and the moon. To be the best

kickball player.....that's who Sara is

Kathy mom to Sara 10 ............folks can be passionate for things that work

(and not just the principal of the matter), look at the diet posts, boy I

wish we could do that heehee

June 17, 2002

You are so right, Rick, about getting too much into the " rights' " of

the child. I have a friend who did this quite a few years ago. She has a

son with DS and then adopted another just a couple years younger. I think

they are in their early 30's now. They were constantly in court and fighting

with the schools for many years. Trouble was all the authorities from the

State Board of Education on down were so fed up with her that it just made

matters worse. She was determined that the boys stay in their local school,

in a small town. Fine. But she couldn't make them teach them anything and

that didn't really seem to be the goal. They still were not included. One

year their classroom was a closet. But as long as it was in court they had

to be kept there. I'm not sure they ever learned to read. To show the

extremes, they were supposed to go till they were 21, of course. Well, the

older boy's birthday was late in Sept. when he would be 21. So when school

started 2 or 3 weeks before that, she sent him. The school called the police

and he was removed from the building in handcuffs! She sent me the piece

from the paper with a picture and article about it. Now that was stupidity

on both sides. But they had been adversaries for so long they didn't know

how to stop.

That is extreme but it's what can happen when " rights " become more

important than education.

Jessie, Mom to , 37 and the light of my life.

June 18, 2002

HI Amie

Haven't heard from you in a while, glad your back

I think the problem is that in Rick's posts they seem to imply that (our)

choices are wrong, that because of them some parents go for inclusion for the

principals alone sorry but yesterdays were taken that way. We have to have

choices to have an Individualized program. And I don't think anyone here has

ever said that moving to self-contained is bad. I think on this list we are

great at seeing every child for being the individual that they

are...........shoot I can only compare a few girls on this to list to Sara

and we have 500 on this list lol Please remember when posted that she

was changing s placement to the resource room, she got tons of

supports heehee and a lot from us that feel choices is a must.

I think what gets my goat is to hear negativity on Inclusion when YOU'VE

never tried it, to me you are arguing the PRINCIPAL then and not speaking

from experience. Im a firm believer in speaking on what you've tried and

offering support to the things you haven't. Sara has never done any of the

other controversial things that involve DS, I would NEVER speak ill of them

unless I tried and fail. To me IMHO some that slam inclusion are slamming the

" Principal " of it, and making the parents feel they have to defend what they

know is working. What a shame do they ever sit back and imagine that maybe if

they had that experience that their lives might be different now?

Oh well I guess Im rambling, it just makes me sad that now in 2002 we still

have debates on to have our kids included (individually I might add) that we

still face confrontation from parents

Kathy mom to Sara 10...........hey are you going to the Suaree this weekend?

In a message dated 6/18/2002 1:48:27 AM Central Standard Time,

AmieBell@... writes:

> I may have misread but I did not see where anyone proposed limiting who

> works

> with our kids for everyone. I go along with Rick, yes graduated a

> year ago so is out of school, however, due to my recent work with the

> Parent

> Training Center in VA and the emails on this list as well as others it is

> very obvious that not a lot is changing! Someone commented that it has been

> ten years since Jan, Ricks daughter, was in school and things are

> different.

> Not from what we see here!

>

> If we truly want the best for our kids, then why even use the word

> inclusion?

> Where does it fit into anything? It is just one of many choices that are

> available if a parent is interested in fighting for it, just as moving your

> child to another district (we did many times) is a choice if you want to

> fight for it.

>

> I personally get tired of hearing we all have to choose the " best " for our

> kids but then if it is not " total inclusion " it obviously is not as good.

>

> Excuse the rant!

> Rejoice!

> Amie

> mom to -23 yrs

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/2002 1:23:50 AM Central Standard Time,

JB66111@... writes:

> That is extreme but it's what can happen when " rights " become more

> important than education.

>

> Jessie, Mom to , 37 and the light of my life.

Heehee Jessie, its a good thing I was not a young adult in the 60's when

protest was a way of life lol it's true, you can be so adversarial that

you're cutting off your nose to spite your face BUT I know in my area these

cases are very few.

I have to take my hat off to the Autistic community here, they are paving the

way for me and others, making the school systems stand up and take

responsibility in educating ours and all kids. They can be very adversarial

but they stand in large numbers, one parent can be compared to a strong wind,

the autistic community compares to a Tornado heehee and Im at their heels lol

Sara is only 10 and I have such a different educational plan for her for her

future HS years, I don't know of any here that has my same long term plan but

I will fight for it because Im guessing now that this is what is best for

Sara and her MOM lol

Kathy mom to Sara 10..........sometimes I compare the woman's movement to

rights for the disabled, now as woman we would fight to have choices right?

this is why I will always fight for Sara.........in my way and my time

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/2002 2:48:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

AmieBell@... writes:

> personally get tired of hearing we all have to choose the " best " for our

> kids but then if it is not " total inclusion " it obviously is not as good.

>

> Excuse the rant!

>

It is not a rant, it is your personal feelings. No one that I can recall has

said if your child is not totally included it is " obviously is not as good " .

What is being discussed is the law says the first placement to be considered

is where your child would be if he or she didn't have a disability. Parents

are having a hard time getting this placement " if they want it and feel their

child would thrive there " . I have truly enjoyed this thread because is shows

all different points of view. In the " 22nd Annual Report to Congress on

IDEA " , a study is quoted. This study concluded that those students with

disabilities who spent the most time in gen ed had better job employment and

higher pay.

Why is that?

Some more to ponder on a Tuesday

Warm regards

Becci

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 06/18/2002 8:29:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Bec4000@... writes:

<< What is being discussed is the law says the first placement to be

considered

is where your child would be if he or she didn't have a disability. Parents

are having a hard time getting this placement >>

Exactly!! This thread is not a statement on what is a best practice, it is

on what should be considered according to the law and rights of the student.

It is about choice, choice, choice. Another point for everyone to remember,

is that as our children mature, placements may need to be changed to

accommodate the changes the child goes through. Those options should be

available and considered by every team. Parental decision to reject

inclusion is as much a right as parental decision to choose inclusion.

Cheryl in VA

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/17/2002 11:23:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

JB66111@... writes:

> That is extreme but it's what can happen when " rights " become more

> important than education.

>

Yes, I am sure that can happen and does happen. But I don't really see it

from the parents on this listserv, do you? What I see are parents who have

the opportunity to see and know what is going to be the best learning

environment for their children, and then pursuing it. What I see are parents

who are educated and not afraid to make waves if needed and are taking the

opportunity to educate others about how our kids CAN learn, if they are given

the opportunity.

I haven't heard one person in this group say, " I will have my child included

NO MATTER WHAT! " or " Full Inclusion is the law and it is the ONLY WAY! "

If you, as a parent, have educated yourself on what is the law, what your

school district has to offer, and what works best for your child and then

gone on to find that setting, build that setting, and support that setting,

then that's all that needs to be said.

Now if someone else thinks I, or any other parent is fighting for inclusion

just because we have that right, or just because of a principle.....that's

THEIR problem not mine. I don't force my views on others, I share them, but

I certainly don't expect others to tell me that I have lost sight of what is

best for my child and am just involved in a fight for the fight!

June 18, 2002

Kathy mom to Sara 10..........sometimes I compare the woman's movement to

rights for the disabled, now as woman we would fight to have choices right?

this is why I will always fight for Sara.........in my way and my time

That is funny you relate the two. For me, I relate advocacy for our children

with discrimination against color. Luther King fought for civil rights

for ALL...he's become my hero. As the black population has made great strides

(and women, too), there is still discrimination going on. One of my favorite

coworkers is black and hispanic. She has three master's degrees and has the

morals of the pope. She could work just about anywhere and make big bucks, but

her heart is with abused and neglected kids. Recently, she went into a store,

following a mother and young daughter. The little girl was holding the door

open for her when the mother turned and said to her daughter " You don't hold the

door for those people " . I know that pain, it's the same when a mother tells her

child to get away from .

June 18, 2002

Hey Amie...are you coming this weekend? Please do come, I've missed talking to

you.

I have to agree that for some, inclusion is the end all for ALL kids. It may

work for some, but not for all. I am so happy to hear about the kids that can

be fully included and are doing well in their placement. But there are many

kids whose LRE is a resource or self contained room. Amy and Rick did make

choices for their children. I think from both of their previous posts from the

last 7 years or so, they are both great advocates for their children. But

and Jan are two different people, with different needs and strengths.

Both have turned out to be fine young women (with a mind of their own!). For

, he gets overstimulated (a sensory issue) in a regular classroom. He

was not a happy camper this past year. He's much happier being in small groups

with the least amount of people in the room. He deserves to go to school and

not feel overwhelmed and anxious. He deserves to be happy while learning his

academics. I really struggled with this issue for a long time. I did get tons

of support from others on the list, mostly from private emails.

I think the bottom line is that parents need to start out with the LRE for their

children and go from there. We parents have been told no, or we don't do that

in our school, that is not best for your child, etc. We get angry. We all want

what is best for our kids and for many of them, it's full inclusion. For

others, it's a more restrictive setting.

Oh yea, and for those parents who go through due process...God love you. FIght

the good fight and never get discouraged. It's parents like you who have

changed things for other children and educated the educators.