Re: Sour Raw Milk

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/4/03 3:50:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, opalv@...

writes:

> >Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that

> the milk sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic

> Pastures. Have others noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I

> was thinking of actually contacting them about this.

It's just a problem with Organic Pastures. My milk takes a week and a half

to sour. Of course, I buy it from the farm, which always helps, since it's

fresher.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/4/03 5:27:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I think in the " old days " most milk was soured or drank shortly after

> milking.

In the 1830s (I work at Old Sturbridge Village which is set in the 1830s) New

Englanders didn't drink milk at all, but they made cheese and butter out of

the milk. Both preserve well. Since their cows went dry in the winter, cheese

could be made earlier in the year for the winter. They'd skim the cream for

the butter by letting it settle on top at room temp (obviously, no

refrigerators) for about 2 days. But they didn't want it to sour, apparently,

as they

avoided making butter in the summer, except some people who insisted on having

it to sell during the summer, who made it in basements. But I think later

people might have started making sour cream butter, since I've read

recollections

of people doing so " back in the day " . There are also some recollections, like

you said, on realmilk.com of people eating soured milk for desert.

As an aside, in the 1830s farmers deliberately timed calving so peak milk

production would coincide with the lush spring grass. Peak milk production was

about 3 times greater than low-production volume.

Raw milk really doesn't keep well, which was one of the reasons they started

> pastuerizing. I did get some raw milk once fresh from the farmer (it is

> hard to get here, so I decided if I REALLY want it I'll get a milk goat!) and

it

> soured in 3 days.

>

I don't know what was wrong with his milk, but I've never had raw milk from

any source that soured in less than a week.

> It may well be that soured milk is actually better for people. In any case,

> if you drink raw milk it starts souring after you drink it pretty quickly, I

> would think.

Probably. Better to sour by the bacteria naturally in the milk than in your

gut, if you have a bad gut, too.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Jafa Sum wrote:

> This is the third time I've tried Organic Pastures raw milk. (I figure I can

write about it, cause it's legal in Ca.) The milk seems to sour very quickly.

I keep thinking it is the quart I bought that is somewhat tainted, so I try

again. Well, this third one was the worst. It went sour after l day. My son

probably won't drink raw milk again after this!

> It's such a shame, cause their cows are pastured on grasses all year. Well,

back to Claravele, which tastes great and lasts about 5 days without souring.

>

> Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that the milk

sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic Pastures. Have others

noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I was thinking of actually contacting

them about this.

You seem to equate " sour " to " bad " . Why is that? Haven't you noticed that we

actually make our milk go sour on purpose?

I wish I had neighbors like you who would give me their sour raw milk. LOL. You

don't throw away banknotes that are wrinkled, do you?

Roman

[Guest guest]

>Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that the milk

sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic Pastures. Have others

noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I was thinking of actually contacting

them about this.

>

>Jafa

I think in the " old days " most milk was soured or drank shortly after milking.

Raw milk really doesn't keep well, which was one of the reasons they started

pastuerizing. I did get some raw milk once fresh from the farmer (it is hard to

get here, so I decided if I REALLY want it I'll get a milk goat!) and it soured

in 3 days.

It may well be that soured milk is actually better for people. In any case, if

you drink raw milk it starts souring after you drink it pretty quickly, I would

think.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Once the milk is our or in the case og goats, goaty, what can you do

with it? Children like it fresh (or tasteless for lack of a better

word). It's hard for them to get past the taste. Goat milk yogurt

was suggested to me but will the taste be even more goaty? How do

you know when it is sour as opposed to bad?

Thanks,

Gail

>

> > This is the third time I've tried Organic Pastures raw milk. (I

figure I can write about it, cause it's legal in Ca.) The milk

seems to sour very quickly. I keep thinking it is the quart I

bought that is somewhat tainted, so I try again. Well, this third

one was the worst. It went sour after l day. My son probably won't

drink raw milk again after this!

> > It's such a shame, cause their cows are pastured on grasses all

year. Well, back to Claravele, which tastes great and lasts about 5

days without souring.

> >

> > Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice

that the milk sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic

Pastures. Have others noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I

was thinking of actually contacting them about this.

>

> You seem to equate " sour " to " bad " . Why is that? Haven't you

noticed that we actually make our milk go sour on purpose?

>

> I wish I had neighbors like you who would give me their sour raw

milk. LOL. You don't throw away banknotes that are wrinkled, do

you?

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

I think in the " old days " most milk was soured or drank shortly after

milking. Raw milk really doesn't keep well, which was one of the reasons

they started pastuerizing. I did get some raw milk once fresh from the

farmer (it is hard to get here, so I decided if I REALLY want it I'll get a

milk goat!) and it soured in 3 days.

---------->heidi, where did you read that this is one of the reasons they

started pasteurizing raw milk? it's the first time i've heard that.

according to ron schmid, who just wrote a book on raw milk to be published

this year, the impetus for pasteurization is that cities were feeding

*distillery* waste to cows, that were (unsurprisingly) producing unhealthy

milk, from which people were getting sick. the brilliant solution was to

continue feeding distillery waste and to pasteurize (cook) the pathogens out

of the crap milk those cows were producing.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that the

milk sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic Pastures. Have

others noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I was thinking of actually

contacting them about this.

----->jafa,

i've got 3 raw cow milk sources and 1 raw goat milk. none sour that quickly.

all take about a week and a half to sour.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Roman,

I have to admit that soured milk is a taste I haven't acquired as yet. I still

have trouble with sour yogurt and kefir. By the way, how does one tell when

milk is bad, as opposed to soured, or is there no such thing as rotten milk.

Jafa

Roman <romeml@...> wrote:

Jafa Sum wrote:

> This is the third time I've tried Organic Pastures raw milk. (I figure I can

write about it, cause it's legal in Ca.) The milk seems to sour very quickly.

I keep thinking it is the quart I bought that is somewhat tainted, so I try

again. Well, this third one was the worst. It went sour after l day. My son

probably won't drink raw milk again after this!

> It's such a shame, cause their cows are pastured on grasses all year. Well,

back to Claravele, which tastes great and lasts about 5 days without souring.

>

> Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that the milk

sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic Pastures. Have others

noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I was thinking of actually contacting

them about this.

You seem to equate " sour " to " bad " . Why is that? Haven't you noticed that we

actually make our milk go sour on purpose?

I wish I had neighbors like you who would give me their sour raw milk. LOL. You

don't throw away banknotes that are wrinkled, do you?

Roman

[Guest guest]

gailz059 wrote:

> Hello,

>

> Once the milk is our or in the case og goats, goaty, what can you do

> with it? Children like it fresh (or tasteless for lack of a better

> word). It's hard for them to get past the taste. Goat milk yogurt

> was suggested to me but will the taste be even more goaty? How do

> you know when it is sour as opposed to bad?

I can't comment on taste. If they don't like it, they don't like it. Mine didn't

have a strong goaty smell or taste.

If it's acidic, then it's sour and good. If it has some bitterness, then I think

it's spoiled. I've only noticed bitterness in commercial pasteurized milk when

we tried to make it go sour.

Roman

[Guest guest]

Jafa Sum wrote:

> Roman,

>

> I have to admit that soured milk is a taste I haven't acquired as yet. I

still have trouble with sour yogurt and kefir.

I am not sure if you didn't mean that some kefir and yogurt is not sour. All

kefir and yogurt are sour milk, by definition. Sorry, if you didn't mean that.

> By the way, how does one tell when milk is bad, as opposed to soured, or is

there no such thing as rotten milk.

It's hard to describe a taste. If you can detect sour (acidic) taste, then

it's... sour. If there's any bitterness there, I think it's spoiled. In this

case, I'd give it some time in a warm place to allow lactic acid producing

organisms to sour the milk.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>> Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that the milk

sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic Pastures. Have others

noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I was thinking of actually contacting

them about this. <<

This is so odd! I buy Org pastures and I have never had it sour. I just opened a

bottle I've had in my fridge now for a week, with a sell by date of yesterday,

and it's perfectly fresh.

Christie

[Guest guest]

I buy both Organic Pastures and Claravale and haven't had a problem with

either. I don't don't know where everyone lives but perhaps it is the

distributor of Org Pastures getting it to No. Cal. The refrigeration might

not be adequate or maybe it takes a few days longer than it should. But

here in So. Cal I haven't had a problem.

Irene

At 10:42 PM 7/4/03, you wrote:

> >> Do those of you who drink raw milk from pastured cows notice that the

> milk sours quickly or is it a problem with just Organic Pastures. Have

> others noticed this problem with Organ. Past.? I was thinking of

> actually contacting them about this. <<

>

>This is so odd! I buy Org pastures and I have never had it sour. I just

>opened a bottle I've had in my fridge now for a week, with a sell by date

>of yesterday, and it's perfectly fresh.

>

>Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

the raw milk that i get lasts about 1 1/2 weeks also. that is

directly from the farm and milked on that day or day before. she also

adds some colloidal silver to it, don't know if that makes a

difference.

roman, what do you do w/ sour milk? around here even once the milk

has soured it doesn't get thrown out right away (laziness.) sometimes

it seperates. is the clear, yellowish liquid on the bottom whey??? i

never heard of whey until the wapf conference a few months ago and

since then i've been w/out my NT book (on loan, need to get it BACK!)

thanks!

beverly

[Guest guest]

rnd4me_94 wrote:

> the raw milk that i get lasts about 1 1/2 weeks also. that is

> directly from the farm and milked on that day or day before. she also

> adds some colloidal silver to it, don't know if that makes a

> difference.

>

> roman, what do you do w/ sour milk? around here even once the milk

> has soured it doesn't get thrown out right away (laziness.) sometimes

> it seperates. is the clear, yellowish liquid on the bottom whey??? i

> never heard of whey until the wapf conference a few months ago and

> since then i've been w/out my NT book (on loan, need to get it BACK!)

>

> thanks!

> beverly

It's easy to take what we know for granted. I came from a country where people

still eat whole foods, and some even make their own soft cheese. My mother

regularly made cheese at home, so I always knew what whey was.

What do I do with sour milk? The same thing you (well, maybe not you,

personally) do with yogurt or kefir, which are also forms of sour milk. The only

difference is in microbial culture used to ferment milk. Milk that has not been

messed up too much will sour reliably on its own and is perfectly safe to eat

and is actually very beneficial, as many of you have learned by now. I

personally think that naturally soured milk might be better than some yogurts

because it contains a wider variety of microorganisms.

Another use of sour milk is to make cheese. Soft cheese (aka farmer's cheese) is

very easy to make.

Yes, the liquid is whey.

Roman

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/4/03 11:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jafasum@... writes:

> I have to admit that soured milk is a taste I haven't acquired as yet. I

> still have trouble with sour yogurt and kefir. By the way, how does one tell

> when milk is bad, as opposed to soured, or is there no such thing as rotten

> milk.

>

If pasteurized milk sits in the fridge for a month or two, you usually heave

if you sniff it. That's rotten. If it smells like cheese or yogurt, it

should be fine. My milk smells like yogurt if it sours at room temp for four

days,

and smells like cheese if it sours in the fridge for two months. I have to

admit though I still have a psychological barrier to using two-month soured

milk. (Ironic since I've had whey for six months).

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/03 3:42:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> And there have been multiple writups on the problems of getting food into

> the big cities at the turn of the century, which was also when we started

> transitioning to a largely grain-based diet. Prior to that point, something

like

> 95% of the population lived on farms and fed themselves, and fresh vegies,

> eggs, cheese, meat and butter were a bigger part of the diet -- and none of

> those travel well.

Heidi, I don't know what part of the country you're talking about, but

Americans in New England since the Pilgrims *always* ate more grains than

vegetables, and ever since the Pilgrims, vegetables have steadily been

increasing in the

American diet. I have no idea if this is true outside of New England, but in

the 17th and 18th century, vegetables were considered " green sauce " because

they were used in small amounts to melt into stews and were purely a condiment.

It's not until the beginning of the 19th century that vegetables are

referred to in individual forms rather than generically calling all vegetables

" green

sauce " which indicates vegetables started to become a side-dish rather than

just a condiment. According to the food research experts at Old Sturbridge

Village, through the 1830s New Englanders still had little regard for vegetables

and still essentially considered them condiments.

Flour, on the other hand, they ate a ton of. And sugar. Grains have been a

staple in the American diet since the English came here (or since the American

Indians started growing corn actually). What wasn't grown till later was

*wheat*-- in New England. At first they subsisted only on corn, and in the mid

17th century after much refining of the soil, they were able to grow English

grains such as rye, barley, and buckwheat, but to this day no one has had much

luck growing wheat in New England. But when the Eerie Canal opened in the

1820s, everyone in the commercial centers were eating wheat flour imported from

New Jersey, and the rich folk in rural areas were, and as time went on more and

more people over the 19th century in rural areas could afford wheat. What

happened over the turn of the century was the technology to remove the germ,

though the bran was taken out in wheat long before.

As to other immigrant populations than the English, I'm ignorant, and as to

outside New England, I'm ignorant. Are you perhaps referring to either?

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/03 3:42:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Seems like most of those nomadic cultures were drinking some kind of soured

> milk too (like the kefir!). Anyway, in our family, once we started making

> kefir everyone started spontaneously avoiding milk. My daughter kept

> complaining the milk " was bad " (it was the same milk we'd always gotten!). But

they eat

> a lot of cheese and yogurt, and piles of kefir with fruit sorbet, and lots

> of butter on everything.

>

Me too. I've pretty much lost my taste for straight milk since I got a

*real* kefir grain. It's just boring. And that's what I thought about

pasteurized

milk when I switched to raw!

> I kind of think that given the choice, the body " knows " what it likes and

> alters our taste buds accordingly.

I agree. I think our taste buds are *always* guided for health reasons,

unless the wiring is short-circuited by an allergy/addiction. Even sugar, when

craved, is because it is what the brain considers the healthiest thing for the

body-- because it doesn't know any better. Sugar does raise blood sugar, so

during hypoglycemia, or candida, or any time when something is raising the need

for sugar, you crave sugar. Brain doesn't know there are other ways to get

that sugar that are more effective unless taught, in the case of candida it's a

hostage. Eat better, brain learns, and taste for junk food starts to go away.

Chris

[Guest guest]

ChrisMasterjohn@... writes:

> I think later people might have started making sour cream butter,

> since I've read recollections of people doing so " back in the day " .

> There are also some recollections, like you said, on realmilk.com of

> people eating soured milk for desert.

I love soured dairy in all its forms, and just this morning made a big

batch of butter from raw soured cream. The butter tastes wonderful to

me and I liked the 'buttermilk' too, it is reminiscent of the

supermarket variety, pleasantly sour, thick and rich.

I started buying raw dairy about a year ago, and at first I could only

consume it soured in small amounts... I wonder if the digestive system

needs to get accustomed to the bacteria?

-Jana

[Guest guest]

>But I think later

>people might have started making sour cream butter, since I've read

recollections

>of people doing so " back in the day " . There are also some recollections, like

>you said, on realmilk.com of people eating soured milk for desert.

Seems like most of those nomadic cultures were drinking some kind of soured milk

too (like the kefir!). Anyway, in our family, once we started making kefir

everyone started spontaneously avoiding milk. My daughter kept complaining the

milk " was bad " (it was the same milk we'd always gotten!). But they eat a lot of

cheese and yogurt, and piles of kefir with fruit sorbet, and lots of butter on

everything.

I kind of think that given the choice, the body " knows " what it likes and alters

our taste buds accordingly. Another interesting thing is that everyone is using

less sauce and condiments, and no one thinks something artificial, like Kool-aid

or Jello, tastes good. Now, when I was a kid we LOVED those things, but maybe it

was just that we didn't eat enough of the good stuff to train our taste buds?

Anyway, the kids don't like them, though a few years ago my daughter liked Jello

and poptarts and all the rest.

Anyway, the desire for milk seems to be similar -- if you like one form and not

another, there may be a reason. And the desires may change (perhaps as one's

digestion improves?).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

At this point I would have to ask if there is any way to smell or tell whether

the raw milk has any of the " bad " pathogens in it that milk is being pastuerized

for? Call me totally ignorant, but I used to think that the sour smell meant

that it had gone bad and one should diffinitely not drink it or he is risking

food poisoning.

Jafa

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

In a message dated 7/4/03 11:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jafasum@... writes:

> I have to admit that soured milk is a taste I haven't acquired as yet. I

> still have trouble with sour yogurt and kefir. By the way, how does one tell

> when milk is bad, as opposed to soured, or is there no such thing as rotten

> milk.

>

If pasteurized milk sits in the fridge for a month or two, you usually heave

if you sniff it. That's rotten. If it smells like cheese or yogurt, it

should be fine. My milk smells like yogurt if it sours at room temp for four

days,

and smells like cheese if it sours in the fridge for two months. I have to

admit though I still have a psychological barrier to using two-month soured

milk. (Ironic since I've had whey for six months).

Chris

[Guest guest]

>---------->heidi, where did you read that this is one of the reasons they

>started pasteurizing raw milk? it's the first time i've heard that.

>according to ron schmid, who just wrote a book on raw milk to be published

>this year, the impetus for pasteurization is that cities were feeding

>*distillery* waste to cows, that were (unsurprisingly) producing unhealthy

>milk, from which people were getting sick. the brilliant solution was to

>continue feeding distillery waste and to pasteurize (cook) the pathogens out

>of the crap milk those cows were producing.

Like most things, there were probably multiple reasons! At the turn of the

century though, a lot of people were moving into the cities, and there were a

lot of people trying to figure out how to get milk to the city folk. The milk

would sour before it even got to the store. One of the more successful solutions

was " condensed milk " which would keep forever, and canned evaporated milk. But I

don't remember exactly where I heard it -- the condensed milk part was, I think,

on NPR.

And there have been multiple writups on the problems of getting food into the

big cities at the turn of the century, which was also when we started

transitioning to a largely grain-based diet. Prior to that point, something like

95% of the population lived on farms and fed themselves, and fresh vegies, eggs,

cheese, meat and butter were a bigger part of the diet -- and none of those

travel well. Remember, this was prior to the invention of the

refrigerator-truck! The sheer logistics of feeding hundreds of thousands of New

Yorkers is mind-boggling and I'd guess they did a lot of experimentation (like

keeping cows in the city feeding them distillary waste, maybe?). Anyway, I don't

have an exact reference, just mentions here and there of how great

pastuerization was because it would let stuff keep longer. I cannot imagine how

you would transport fresh raw milk without refrigeration.

This is an interesting writup of a book of milk's history in the US. Note how

SMALL the cow is! It notes that fresh milk wasn't a common drink (buttermilk was

hawked in the streets, but not fresh milk).

http://www.ucsc.edu/currents/01-02/02-04/milk.html

Also an interesting timeline (yeah, it is from the " milk " people!):

http://www.wegotmilk.com/milk_history.html

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Jafa Sum wrote:

> At this point I would have to ask if there is any way to smell or tell whether

the raw milk has any of the " bad " pathogens in it that milk is being pastuerized

for? Call me totally ignorant, but I used to think that the sour smell meant

that it had gone bad and one should diffinitely not drink it or he is risking

food poisoning.

Jafa,

I am sure you can find pathogens everywhere, including your mouth right now. But

this isn't important. What is important is whether they will dominate and be

able to produce (enough) of their toxins to negatively affect your health.

It's our agreement that raw milk is largely safe, and sour milk doesn't mean bad

milk. With this logic, you'd have say that sour cabbage is also spoiled, but we

make it sour on purpose, and billions or people have done so for a very long

time.

It is possible to develop loose stool short-term while your body adjusts to a

large amount of microorganisms. So, to minimize that, start gradually. But this

is not dangerous... loose stool is not a problem -- only an inconvenience.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, I don't know what part of the country you're talking about, but

>Americans in New England since the Pilgrims *always* ate more grains than

>vegetables, and ever since the Pilgrims, vegetables have steadily been

increasing in the

>American diet. I have no idea if this is true outside of New England, but in

>the 17th and 18th century, vegetables were considered " green sauce " because

>they were used in small amounts to melt into stews and were purely a condiment.

>It's not until the beginning of the 19th century that vegetables are

>referred to in individual forms rather than generically calling all vegetables

" green

>sauce " which indicates vegetables started to become a side-dish rather than

>just a condiment. According to the food research experts at Old Sturbridge

>Village, through the 1830s New Englanders still had little regard for

vegetables

>and still essentially considered them condiments.

I agree people (at least since the Neolithic) have relied

on grains. Everyone agrees that " civilization " and " grain growing "

go hand in hand. I was specifically mentioning the change

that happened in the US when we went from a primarily

farm culture to a primarily urban culture: the diet changed

a lot (for the worse) and one of the big reasons was the

problems with food preservation. With grain too -- removing

the germ from wheat was largely to make the flour keep longer.

As to vegies in particular -- I don't know what percent of the diet was vegies.

I agree totally

about wheat -- it has become a LOT more widespread lately (except maybe in the

Middle

East, where it's been the staple for a long time. I was thinking of the 1800's

farmers,

and from reading biographies and talking to people, a large percentage of what

they

ate was what they grew, and that included a lot of vegies, eggs, milk products

and meat. If you have a cow and some chickens, you can rely on a steady

stream of eggs and milk, at least! Ditto with zucchini: if you plant it, you

WILL

be eating a lot of zucchini!

However, most of the people I've actually TALKED to were from the South. New

England would have the same problems that people in the cities did --

the growing season is short. But what are you counting as a " vegetable " ?

When I think New England I think of clam chowder, New England boiled

dinners. And I count potatoes, onions, and carrots as vegies.

Back in Pilgrim times I get the impression they ate a lot of meat and fish,

at least when they could get it. Meat was another thing that

got scarce (for a lot of folks) when people got " citified " . The

richer folks could afford it, but poor folk could not.

-- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

>I agree. I think our taste buds are *always* guided for health reasons,

>unless the wiring is short-circuited by an allergy/addiction.

That always gets me when they talk about people eating the

wrong things " because they taste so good. " People act

like Americans will never " eat right " because junk food

is so appealing. But junk food is NOT appealing at all

once you get used to the good stuff! As everyone here

knows ...

I know someone who chides me about paying too

much attention to food. This person also flies to

France every so often because the food is just so

good there ... heck, I say, learn to cook like a

French peasant!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/03 1:15:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I agree people (at least since the Neolithic) have relied

> on grains. Everyone agrees that " civilization " and " grain growing "

> go hand in hand. I was specifically mentioning the change

> that happened in the US when we went from a primarily

> farm culture to a primarily urban culture: the diet changed

> a lot (for the worse) and one of the big reasons was the

> problems with food preservation. With grain too -- removing

> the germ from wheat was largely to make the flour keep longer.

>

I understand that, but that's not a change from veggies to grains, its a

change from unrefined grains to refined grains. In the rural areas it wasn't

much

of an issue because you just went down to the village grist mill once a week.

> As to vegies in particular -- I don't know what percent of the diet was

> vegies. I agree totally

> about wheat -- it has become a LOT more widespread lately (except maybe in

> the Middle

> East, where it's been the staple for a long time. I was thinking of the

> 1800's farmers,

> and from reading biographies and talking to people, a large percentage of

> what they

> ate was what they grew, and that included a lot of vegies, eggs, milk

> products

> and meat. If you have a cow and some chickens, you can rely on a steady

> stream of eggs and milk, at least! Ditto with zucchini: if you plant it, you

> WILL

> be eating a lot of zucchini!

>

Yes, but that also included an enormous amount of grain. Having a cow does

not give a steady stream of milk at all, because the cows dried up in the late

fall and didn't produce milk again until they calved in spring, which leaves

without milk for almost half a year. With several cows you can make butter and

cheese to preserve through the winter. It wasn't until the 1800s that New

Englanders of moderate wealth had year-round dairy, and not until the late 1800s

that all wealth classes could have year-round dairy.

Most people of all classes grew grain. Corn and Rye were major staples in

the diet. You are right, if you grow it, you eat it-- and everyone was eating

corn and rye in New England. Not to mention beer. Up until the 1800s

everybody drank beer as the main beverage. During the 1800s that shifted to

hard

cider (which is a shift to *less* grains), mostly because apples are easier to

grow.

> However, most of the people I've actually TALKED to were from the South.

> New

> England would have the same problems that people in the cities did --

> the growing season is short.

Allright, that might explain the discrepancies then.

But what are you counting as a " vegetable " ?

> When I think New England I think of clam chowder, New England boiled

> dinners. And I count potatoes, onions, and carrots as vegies.

>

I count all of those as vegetables. When I think of New England I also think

of " Rye and Injun bread " -- rye and corn. And I count those as grains.

> Back in Pilgrim times I get the impression they ate a lot of meat and fish,

> at least when they could get it. Meat was another thing that

> got scarce (for a lot of folks) when people got " citified " . The

> richer folks could afford it, but poor folk could not.

>

They ate a ton of meat and fish. And corn. Not veggies so much.

Chris