RE: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18 month-old

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/20/2007 2:57:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

bluheron@... writes:

I was just at the ER last night with my 13 year old

I hope everything went ok w/your 13 year old.

I'm torn as to what to do if/when the situation arises the (14months)

needs to go to the ER. I can see both sides of this arguement. One thing is

important though, my hubby and I need to decide before we get to the

hospital.

Holly

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

, it's great to be gung ho, but you must realize that there are

people/agencies who will not back down as readily as your pediatrician.

There are people who have been taken to court, reported to social workers,

investigated by CPS, etc., over their decision not to vaccinate or some other

decision that is viewed as outside the mainstream (homeschooling, etc). Don't

kid yourself that just because you are assertive in your beliefs all authority

figures are simply going to back down.

Becca

**************************************

See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

Hey everyone, my name is and I'm new to the group(and a new

mommy!) I started searching for answers on vaccinations shortly after

some of my friends told me about thier kids having reactions to them.

So, three days before my little girl was to recieve her two-month

shots, I started researching vaccinations and possible side effects.

Let me tell you, I found more than enough info in just a few hours to

discourage me from allowing her to be vaccinated. I was outright

shocked at the things I learned and couldn't stop talking about it to

my friends and family. As I read about how people are hesitant to

tell docs the real reason for not vaccinating and blaming it on

religious beliefs and what-not, I'm fueled with fury. I don't say

this to offend anyone or to step on any toes but rather, encourage

everyone to take a stand. These are OUR children and we must protect

them and tell everyone in the medical field that we are not going to

tolerate being pushed around and painted as the bad guys. I marched

right in to the pediatrics office and informed the pediatrition(who

was my peed 20 years ago) that I chose not to vaccinate. Of course he

asked why and I told him based on the research I had done, there was

no where the amount of pros versus cons. I am Christian but frankly,

that has nothing to do with it. It's more of an ethical decision than

a religious one. I told him I would not play Russian Roulett with my

child and if he had a problem with that, than I would find someone

who didn't. Needless to say, being blunt and honest was the best

thing I could do. It is in Makayla's folder now that they are not to

vaccinate, no questions asked and we are going to continue to see

that pediatrition. I'm not esaily intimidated ESPECIALLY when it

comes to doing what is best for my baby and I pray that new moms

everywhere will pick up that same kind of confidence and know that it

is our God-given right to choose whether or not we want to vaccinate

our children. God bless you all!!

~mary~

[Guest guest]

I am 53 and have lived my life vax free. Am old

enough to have had classmates with polio and with leg

braces. I keep to myself on the vax issue, but I

smile when I hear that people are becoming enlightened

on the subject. Keep up the good work ... you are

answers to my prayers.

--- mensrea320@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 5/20/2007 1:48:20 PM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> littlebit27292@... writes:

>

> I'm fueled with fury.

>

>

> I remember when I first started researching

> vaccines. It is nice to have

> someone bring their excitement into the group. I

> feel the same as you. I'm

> not as gung ho as I was in the beginning. Getting

> put down time after time

> after time has done that to me. But I still try to

> get the message out. Thanks

> for re-igniting my flame.

>

> Holly

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's

> free at http://www.aol.com.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with

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[Guest guest]

wow... I need that kind of fire too. I wish every new mom could be so

smart. we have one at church.. new mom that is. and " she's all about

vaccinating b/c she would feel horrible if her baby got something that

she could have helped prevent " her dad is an anethisiosolgist and 'she's

seen a baby w/ whooping cough and it was sad, pathetic sight "

so there's no talking to her. I told her she should read the book anyway

b/c she can still get the diseases she's being vaxxed for (I gave her

the baby book and lydall's book recommendation)

she probably won't though

Nita, yes my hands are full, but not my heart: 14, Jon 12,

10, 8, 5, Christian (RIP: 7/16/03 to 8/22/04), and 1

Some minds are like concrete:

Thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.5/812 - Release Date: 5/19/2007

1:52 PM

[Guest guest]

You know, my neighbor has a similar philosophy. Honestly, the only

diseases in the entire roster of vaxxes that you need to " worry "

about are polio and tetanus. The others are mild childhood diseases,

which you are probably better off for if you actually get them.

And as for those two, tetanus is pretty hard to get. Polio you'd

really have to go overseas to get, and then most cases are

asymptomatic. I know someone will reply with lots of info about why

we shouldn't worry about polio either, so I won't try to elaborate

(don't have the info in the forefront of my brain), but this whole

idea that kids should never get sick if we can prevent it is bad news.

We've just traded acute illness for chronic. I'd rather my child get

a " sad, pathetic " whooping cough naturally (i.e, by God's hand) than

autism or something else by MY hand.

I know you agree, just wanted to chime in. -Angie

On May 20, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Venita Garner wrote:

> wow... I need that kind of fire too. I wish every new mom could be so

> smart. we have one at church.. new mom that is. and " she's all about

> vaccinating b/c she would feel horrible if her baby got something that

> she could have helped prevent " her dad is an anethisiosolgist and

> 'she's

> seen a baby w/ whooping cough and it was sad, pathetic sight "

>

> so there's no talking to her. I told her she should read the book

> anyway

> b/c she can still get the diseases she's being vaxxed for (I gave her

> the baby book and lydall's book recommendation)

>

> she probably won't though

>

[Guest guest]

>You know, my neighbor has a similar philosophy. Honestly, the only

>diseases in the entire roster of vaxxes that you need to " worry "

>about are polio and tetanus. The others are mild childhood diseases,

>which you are probably better off for if you actually get them.

>

>And as for those two, tetanus is pretty hard to get. Polio you'd

>really have to go overseas to get, and then most cases are

>asymptomatic. I know someone will reply with lots of info about why

>we shouldn't worry about polio either, so I won't try to elaborate

>(don't have the info in the forefront of my brain), but this whole

>idea that kids should never get sick if we can prevent it is bad news.

Yes, and there is no diagnostic test for tetanus so we don't even know if

those they say have tetanus, have tetanus.

Many other things - poisonings, toxic stings and more can cause the same

symptoms.

And polio reminder - very very probably it was a toxic situation and not

infectious at all. In fact it was CERTAINLY not infectious at all -

hospital staff didn't get from patients, other family members didn't get

from a family member with it.

Please follow the links on my polio pages for this vital info - especially

vital as everyone has the fear of polio put into them and the praise for

the miracle of the vaccine.

Find out the truth

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/polio.htm

>

>We've just traded acute illness for chronic. I'd rather my child get

>a " sad, pathetic " whooping cough naturally (i.e, by God's hand) than

>autism or something else by MY hand.

EXACTLY.

We have surely traded acute illness for serious chronic illness that is

life long

Sheri

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes, and there is no diagnostic test for tetanus so we don't even

> know if

> those they say have tetanus, have tetanus.

> Many other things - poisonings, toxic stings and more can cause the

> same

> symptoms.

I have heard this (about the diagnostic test). But let's assume

someone intelligent is on the case (not always true, I realize).

Someone has the muscle rigidity and locking up that are

characteristic of tetanus. Wouldn't an intelligent doctor ask: have

you sustained any puncture wounds? Or have you recently been bitten

by an insect or snake, or ingested anything unusual? I would think by

such logical inquiry, one could narrow down the possible cause of the

symptoms. If no sting/bite or ingestion, but yes on a puncture wound,

it seems reasonable to assume tetanus, wouldn't you think? Or what

else besides the examples above could cause this?

>

> And polio reminder - very very probably it was a toxic situation

> and not

> infectious at all. In fact it was CERTAINLY not infectious at all -

> hospital staff didn't get from patients, other family members

> didn't get

> from a family member with it.

>

That's interesting. But, couldn't we still get these toxins today?

People elsewhere in the world do.

-Angie

[Guest guest]

Becca, thanks for your reply. Don't worry, I'm not kidding myself. I'm

very aware of those agencies and what they are capable of. My mom

homeschooled five of her seven kids and DSS was called on her as well.

She was put under a microscope for several weeks but stood her ground

on every issue. It's like they were waiting for her to fail, but when

we out-scored the public schools on every exam and SAT's, they backed

off. I think the same will eventually happen when more and more people

become educated about the vaccines and just how dangerous they can be.

The governmemt may be overlooking the few " concerned " parents right

now, but eventually the number will become greater and grow more

publicity...something the government can not overlook.

~mary~

[Guest guest]

And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as far as

you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

And I would lie to protect a life in my care, no matter what.

Sheri

At 04:21 PM 5/19/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>>

>That's the problem I (and a few others) have with lying about it. I

>for one am a terrible liar. I was taught that lying is wrong and I

>just feel so bad about it that I can't do it with any skill

>whatsoever. Some people choose to lie because it makes life easier in

>certain circumstances. However, I think doing so chips away at one's

>character over time. I have coworkers who lie quite casually and I

>don't respect them very much for it. Telling the truth is generally

>harder (which is why so many people lie) but builds character and

>keeps your conscience clean. It usually means you have to develop

>other character traits, such as perseverance and the ability to stick

>up for what you believe. Those traits are things that people admire

>(if only in the abstract, for some) and that will make you a good

>role model for your children. I say, stick with the high road. In the

>short run it may be harder, but in the long run is worth it.

>

>I guess that's my sermon for the day... ;-) -Angie

>

>> I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

>> or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

>> credibility. I

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

I routinely refuse Tetanus shots for myself. Why can you not refuse them for

your baby?

>>> Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> 5/21/2007 6:54 AM >>>

And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as far as

you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

And I would lie to protect a life in my care, no matter what.

Sheri

At 04:21 PM 5/19/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>>

>That's the problem I (and a few others) have with lying about it. I

>for one am a terrible liar. I was taught that lying is wrong and I

>just feel so bad about it that I can't do it with any skill

>whatsoever. Some people choose to lie because it makes life easier in

>certain circumstances. However, I think doing so chips away at one's

>character over time. I have coworkers who lie quite casually and I

>don't respect them very much for it. Telling the truth is generally

>harder (which is why so many people lie) but builds character and

>keeps your conscience clean. It usually means you have to develop

>other character traits, such as perseverance and the ability to stick

>up for what you believe. Those traits are things that people admire

>(if only in the abstract, for some) and that will make you a good

>role model for your children. I say, stick with the high road. In the

>short run it may be harder, but in the long run is worth it.

>

>I guess that's my sermon for the day... ;-) -Angie

>

>> I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

>> or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

>> credibility. I

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

A quick update on this. I emailed Mass.Citizens for Vaccination Choice and my

email was forwarded to the medical director of the immunization program at the

MA Dept. of Public Health, who wrote this:

>>I had to make some inquiries about this issue before responding. Medical and

religious exemptions only apply to immunization requirements for child care,

school or college. The MDPH immunization program does not have any regulations

or policies with respect to the administration of immune globulin (I am guessing

that this child received tetanus immune globulin) for the purposes of emergency

treatment. We generally would regard this as a matter between the patient and

physician and beyond the bounds of our program.

It is possible that the Board of Registration in Medicine has general standards

for obtaining consent in an emergency, but you would have to contact the Board

for a definitive answer.

While the last sentence allows some room, I think the note above makes

reasonably clear that the ER MD likely had no cause to threaten you as he

apparently did. If you have a phone number and the doctor's name, along with

what might be an affadivit of what was said, I'd be willing to make a call to

ascertain the motivation and presumed regulations regarding ER vaccination.<<

So I replied with the info he requested. I have not heard back, and don't know

if I will. sorry about the weird formatting. I tried to fix it, but alas...

Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

I routinely refuse Tetanus shots for myself. Why can you not refuse them for

your baby?

>>> Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> 5/21/2007 6:54 AM >>>

And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as far as

you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

And I would lie to protect a life in my care, no matter what.

Sheri

At 04:21 PM 5/19/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>>

>That's the problem I (and a few others) have with lying about it. I

>for one am a terrible liar. I was taught that lying is wrong and I

>just feel so bad about it that I can't do it with any skill

>whatsoever. Some people choose to lie because it makes life easier in

>certain circumstances. However, I think doing so chips away at one's

>character over time. I have coworkers who lie quite casually and I

>don't respect them very much for it. Telling the truth is generally

>harder (which is why so many people lie) but builds character and

>keeps your conscience clean. It usually means you have to develop

>other character traits, such as perseverance and the ability to stick

>up for what you believe. Those traits are things that people admire

>(if only in the abstract, for some) and that will make you a good

>role model for your children. I say, stick with the high road. In the

>short run it may be harder, but in the long run is worth it.

>

>I guess that's my sermon for the day... ;-) -Angie

>

>> I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

>> or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

>> credibility. I

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure if I'm the right , but I do realize this, more so than others

probably as I was a social services welfare worker for three years and the ego

and power trip that most social workers are on (despite having lives that are

often a MESS) is scary to say the least.

It's very easy to say what one thinks one would do after the fact, but when

people are in your face and threatening you, it's harder to stick to your guns.

I've been there and finally at 39 do I know that they actually have less power

than they want you to think they do.

ANNA

moftap@... wrote:

, it's great to be gung ho, but you must realize that there are

people/agencies who will not back down as readily as your pediatrician.

There are people who have been taken to court, reported to social workers,

investigated by CPS, etc., over their decision not to vaccinate or some other

decision that is viewed as outside the mainstream (homeschooling, etc). Don't

kid yourself that just because you are assertive in your beliefs all authority

figures are simply going to back down.

Becca

**************************************

See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

Debating the subject of lies, " as far as you are concerned " means you

know it isn't the truth but have figured a way to justify it to

yourself, i.e., it's still a lie. Not vaxxing is not the same thing

at all as being up to date on something. And avoiding hassle is

exactly why most people lie ( " I would get in so much trouble if my

boss knew I was actually fishing instead of being sick, " etc.). Now

nobody email and say how playing hookey from work isn't anywhere near

equivalent to lying about not vaxxing, because I'm not saying that,

I'm just illustrating a point about lying.

But that's a separate issue from whether one should lie or not lie

about vaxxing to doctors/authorities and whether you should lie if

you feel someone's life is in imminent danger. I'm just responding to

that one thing you said. -Angie

On May 21, 2007, at 6:54 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as

> far as

> you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

>

[Guest guest]

I do not lie about my childrens' vaccination status.

But then again I live in China, where, paradoxically we have many more

freedoms than in the U.S.

We unschool without interference or monitoring of any sort. We do not

vaccinate, and nobody cares. We Attachment Parent and Co-sleep.

Breastfeed for ages. Are vegetarian.

In the States, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to " call the

authorities " , I.E. CPS because we just aren't NORMAL and are

NEGATIVELY AFFECTING our kids, in their opinion.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, get out while you still can,

folks. America is headed down a dark path. You can still love the

U.S., still care, still be involved, and still sign petitions, argue

online, etc. from the other side of the world, while you have the

freedom to make your family exactly as you choose.

[Guest guest]

Well, I don't see the world so black and white. There is a lot of grey in

my world!

Why isn't it the truth? I don't see it as a lie at all. They are up to date.

And what right does anyone have to ask you such things? And who says you

have to answer everyone just because they ask?

What if they asked you in the ER how often you have sex with your husband?

Do you have to answer them just because they ask? If the consequences for

your truthful answer would be they phone the police, would you answer

truthfully?

And if you know you will protect your family from further harrassment and

possible serious harm by telling what you call a lie, well that's how it is.

Sorry, I just don't see the world so black and white.

Sheri

You seem to have strict rulesAt 07:35 PM 5/21/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>Debating the subject of lies, " as far as you are concerned " means you

>know it isn't the truth but have figured a way to justify it to

>yourself, i.e., it's still a lie. Not vaxxing is not the same thing

>at all as being up to date on something. And avoiding hassle is

>exactly why most people lie ( " I would get in so much trouble if my

>boss knew I was actually fishing instead of being sick, " etc.). Now

>nobody email and say how playing hookey from work isn't anywhere near

>equivalent to lying about not vaxxing, because I'm not saying that,

>I'm just illustrating a point about lying.

>

>But that's a separate issue from whether one should lie or not lie

>about vaxxing to doctors/authorities and whether you should lie if

>you feel someone's life is in imminent danger. I'm just responding to

>that one thing you said. -Angie

>

>On May 21, 2007, at 6:54 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

>

>> And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as

>> far as

>> you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

>>

>>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

You are exactly right.

What people will be faced with, I fear, will be far worse than what is

happening now.

Sheri

At 07:10 AM 5/22/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>I do not lie about my childrens' vaccination status.

>

>But then again I live in China, where, paradoxically we have many more

>freedoms than in the U.S.

>

>We unschool without interference or monitoring of any sort. We do not

>vaccinate, and nobody cares. We Attachment Parent and Co-sleep.

>Breastfeed for ages. Are vegetarian.

>

>In the States, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to " call the

>authorities " , I.E. CPS because we just aren't NORMAL and are

>NEGATIVELY AFFECTING our kids, in their opinion.

>

>I've said it before, I'll say it again, get out while you still can,

>folks. America is headed down a dark path. You can still love the

>U.S., still care, still be involved, and still sign petitions, argue

>online, etc. from the other side of the world, while you have the

>freedom to make your family exactly as you choose.

>

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

Ok, how is this for justification...

Before I began my life as a liar, I spoke with my family doctor about what to

say in the ER regarding vaccines. She is pretty much anti vaccine and told me

that they do not need to know my childrens' vaccine history, as it would not

alter the course of treatment and would open myself up to harassment. The only

doctor who needs to know is her and I am better keeping myself under the radar.

As mother, I have learned that I will do anything I have to, whether that be to

lie, cheat, or steal, in order to protect my children, even if I am protecting

them from an overzealous doctor and the threat of protective services. I have

had many ER visits, as my older son has asthma and I know how it goes. I was

lectured and harassed because when my son was hospitalized for four days due to

his asthma, I told the persistent doctor that he would not be getting a flu shot

while there.

How many ER visits have you had to make?

---- Totten <afaltotten@...> wrote:

> Debating the subject of lies, " as far as you are concerned " means you

> know it isn't the truth but have figured a way to justify it to

> yourself, i.e., it's still a lie. Not vaxxing is not the same thing

> at all as being up to date on something. And avoiding hassle is

> exactly why most people lie ( " I would get in so much trouble if my

> boss knew I was actually fishing instead of being sick, " etc.). Now

> nobody email and say how playing hookey from work isn't anywhere near

> equivalent to lying about not vaxxing, because I'm not saying that,

> I'm just illustrating a point about lying.

>

> But that's a separate issue from whether one should lie or not lie

> about vaxxing to doctors/authorities and whether you should lie if

> you feel someone's life is in imminent danger. I'm just responding to

> that one thing you said. -Angie

>

> On May 21, 2007, at 6:54 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

>

> > And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as

> > far as

> > you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In order to change things as we know it, we MUST stand up for and defend what WE

know to be true. We get on a slippery slope when trying to re-educate " the

professionals', so I don't recommend that. Only truth can bring about the

necessary changes and shift in thinking toward vaccinations. If we lie, we are

surely slowing progress in this crucial area. If enough of us speak truth, truth

will begin to be heard. Last time I checked, I still have the laws of my state

to back up my choices. How you present the truth and the circumstances that lead

one to the ER play a huge role in how it is handled by staff. Every case is

different. Just because you don't vax your child doesn't make you immune to a

call to CPS. I think it's important to remember that.

Anita

Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> wrote:

Well, I don't see the world so black and white. There is a lot of grey in

my world!

Why isn't it the truth? I don't see it as a lie at all. They are up to date.

And what right does anyone have to ask you such things? And who says you

have to answer everyone just because they ask?

What if they asked you in the ER how often you have sex with your husband?

Do you have to answer them just because they ask? If the consequences for

your truthful answer would be they phone the police, would you answer

truthfully?

And if you know you will protect your family from further harrassment and

possible serious harm by telling what you call a lie, well that's how it is.

Sorry, I just don't see the world so black and white.

Sheri

You seem to have strict rulesAt 07:35 PM 5/21/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>Debating the subject of lies, " as far as you are concerned " means you

>know it isn't the truth but have figured a way to justify it to

>yourself, i.e., it's still a lie. Not vaxxing is not the same thing

>at all as being up to date on something. And avoiding hassle is

>exactly why most people lie ( " I would get in so much trouble if my

>boss knew I was actually fishing instead of being sick, " etc.). Now

>nobody email and say how playing hookey from work isn't anywhere near

>equivalent to lying about not vaxxing, because I'm not saying that,

>I'm just illustrating a point about lying.

>

>But that's a separate issue from whether one should lie or not lie

>about vaxxing to doctors/authorities and whether you should lie if

>you feel someone's life is in imminent danger. I'm just responding to

>that one thing you said. -Angie

>

>On May 21, 2007, at 6:54 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

>

>> And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as

>> far as

>> you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

>>

>>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

Maybe I'm not be being realistic, but I refuse to give in to pessimism. I intend

to remain home and continue expressing the truth gently and respectfully to

protect my children where and when it is necessary. As tough as NY is, I have

never been reported for anything and I have lived under a magnifying glass since

Henry's diagnosis of autism in July of 02. Everyone knows where I stand and they

know I stand strongly. I may be viewed as unorthodox, but never as an unfit

mother..........Anita

Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> wrote: You are exactly right.

What people will be faced with, I fear, will be far worse than what is

happening now.

Sheri

At 07:10 AM 5/22/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>I do not lie about my childrens' vaccination status.

>

>But then again I live in China, where, paradoxically we have many more

>freedoms than in the U.S.

>

>We unschool without interference or monitoring of any sort. We do not

>vaccinate, and nobody cares. We Attachment Parent and Co-sleep.

>Breastfeed for ages. Are vegetarian.

>

>In the States, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to " call the

>authorities " , I.E. CPS because we just aren't NORMAL and are

>NEGATIVELY AFFECTING our kids, in their opinion.

>

>I've said it before, I'll say it again, get out while you still can,

>folks. America is headed down a dark path. You can still love the

>U.S., still care, still be involved, and still sign petitions, argue

>online, etc. from the other side of the world, while you have the

>freedom to make your family exactly as you choose.

>

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

OR enough people will say that they don't vaccinate and the medical community

will see it as a threat to their " sacred cow " and start pushing for stricter

laws regarding vaccines.

That is great if you want to stand up and defend your position, but I am not

going to risk the harassment and the trouble when it comes to my kids. I am

good, but I am no martyr.

---- Anita Durney <mydurney@...> wrote:

> In order to change things as we know it, we MUST stand up for and defend what

WE know to be true. We get on a slippery slope when trying to re-educate " the

professionals', so I don't recommend that. Only truth can bring about the

necessary changes and shift in thinking toward vaccinations. If we lie, we are

surely slowing progress in this crucial area. If enough of us speak truth, truth

will begin to be heard. Last time I checked, I still have the laws of my state

to back up my choices. How you present the truth and the circumstances that lead

one to the ER play a huge role in how it is handled by staff. Every case is

different. Just because you don't vax your child doesn't make you immune to a

call to CPS. I think it's important to remember that.

>

> Anita

>

> Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> wrote:

> Well, I don't see the world so black and white. There is a lot of grey in

> my world!

>

> Why isn't it the truth? I don't see it as a lie at all. They are up to date.

>

> And what right does anyone have to ask you such things? And who says you

> have to answer everyone just because they ask?

> What if they asked you in the ER how often you have sex with your husband?

> Do you have to answer them just because they ask? If the consequences for

> your truthful answer would be they phone the police, would you answer

> truthfully?

>

> And if you know you will protect your family from further harrassment and

> possible serious harm by telling what you call a lie, well that's how it is.

>

> Sorry, I just don't see the world so black and white.

>

> Sheri

>

> You seem to have strict rulesAt 07:35 PM 5/21/2007 -0400, you wrote:

> >Debating the subject of lies, " as far as you are concerned " means you

> >know it isn't the truth but have figured a way to justify it to

> >yourself, i.e., it's still a lie. Not vaxxing is not the same thing

> >at all as being up to date on something. And avoiding hassle is

> >exactly why most people lie ( " I would get in so much trouble if my

> >boss knew I was actually fishing instead of being sick, " etc.). Now

> >nobody email and say how playing hookey from work isn't anywhere near

> >equivalent to lying about not vaxxing, because I'm not saying that,

> >I'm just illustrating a point about lying.

> >

> >But that's a separate issue from whether one should lie or not lie

> >about vaxxing to doctors/authorities and whether you should lie if

> >you feel someone's life is in imminent danger. I'm just responding to

> >that one thing you said. -Angie

> >

> >On May 21, 2007, at 6:54 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> >

> >> And why is it lying to say that 'they are up to date'. They are as

> >> far as

> >> you are concerned and this avoids hassle and calls to CPS, etc.

> >>

> >>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

> $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

> earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

> (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

> Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

> Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

> Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So glad you showed up, Anita! I know you think the same way as me on

this. Lying may be easier in the short run, but is harder in the long

run, and heaven forbid you lie and then are caught, then that makes

you even more suspect in the eyes of CPS.

I admire people who stand up for truth, such as people who are

whistleblowers, who usually lose their jobs and whose families may

suffer as a result of their honesty and character. If I benefit from

others risking for the truth, shouldn't I also tell the truth? I

admire people who have the courage to speak the truth, and I want to

be one of them. -A

On May 22, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Anita Durney wrote:

> In order to change things as we know it, we MUST stand up for and

> defend what WE know to be true. We get on a slippery slope when

> trying to re-educate " the professionals', so I don't recommend

> that. Only truth can bring about the necessary changes and shift in

> thinking toward vaccinations. If we lie, we are surely slowing

> progress in this crucial area. If enough of us speak truth, truth

> will begin to be heard. Last time I checked, I still have the laws

> of my state to back up my choices. How you present the truth and

> the circumstances that lead one to the ER play a huge role in how

> it is handled by staff. Every case is different. Just because you

> don't vax your child doesn't make you immune to a call to CPS. I

> think it's important to remember that.

>

> Anita

[Guest guest]

On May 22, 2007, at 4:19 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> Well, I don't see the world so black and white. There is a lot of

> grey in

> my world!

In that case, then the world is also gray with regard to

pharmaceutical companies or medical professionals who lie? Because in

their eyes, they may not be lying, or may feel that their lies are

protecting people's lives (i.e., health professionals who believe

vaccines save lives and want to immunize your children to protect

them). -A

[Guest guest]

I hear and respect you for doing what you think is best..........Anita

Sassygirl1218@... wrote: OR enough people will say that they don't

vaccinate and the medical community will see it as a threat to their " sacred

cow " and start pushing for stricter laws regarding vaccines.

That is great if you want to stand up and defend your position, but I am not

going to risk the harassment and the trouble when it comes to my kids. I am

good, but I am no martyr.

---------------------------------

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

[Guest guest]

I agree, Anita, thanks for reaffirming that. :-) Angie

On May 22, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Anita Durney wrote:

> I hear and respect you for doing what you think is best..........Anita

>

> Sassygirl1218@... wrote: OR enough people will say that

> they don't vaccinate and the medical community will see it as a

> threat to their " sacred cow " and start pushing for stricter laws

> regarding vaccines.

>

> That is great if you want to stand up and defend your position, but

> I am not going to risk the harassment and the trouble when it comes

> to my kids. I am good, but I am no martyr.

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

>

>