RE: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18 month-old

[Guest guest]

I am so sorry to hear about your awful ER visit. It really sucks when doctors

put themselves way up there on their pedastals.

This is why I always say that my kids are up to date, I don't want to deal with

that harassment.

Sara

---- Austin <webinfusion@...> wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last night in the ER. We

brought our 18 m/o son in because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought this house and didn't even

know the bottle was there...)

>

> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the very first nurse we saw

asked if his vaccinations were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

said that's fine. She then said why they recommend tetanus, and that we could

refuse if we want to but they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

>

> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the Doctor. I asked him what could

happen if we don't get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will die. " Of

course I said " You are telling me my son will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if

he gets tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could die.

>

> Then he went away and my husband and I talked about it, and decided against.

We haven't done any reading on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

them 5 years ago when our first child was born. When he came back we told him of

our choice.

>

> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have no choice but to call the

police, and DSS.

>

> This perplexed me as I had already been told by two nurses that we had the

choice, and then the Dr. is telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

held liable and he won't let us leave unless we can come to some agreement

(meaning agree with him and allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

>

> He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I didn't want the vaccine. I

said I won't agree to inject my child with any vaccine that contains thimerosal.

I had previously asked him and both nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it was, (preservative) or that it

contains mercury.

>

> We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best interest of our son was to

leave as soon as possible and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to the

tetanus hemoglobin after reading the ingredient list with the nurse and

verifying it did not contain thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

without it, so we were told that we will have to bring our son to his

pediatrician for a tetanus shot on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

>

> So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be trampled on? I had thought

that stating our objection that is in compliance with our state law, was all I

had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr. could override us and demand it, or accuse

us of endangering our child's welfare and involve police & DSS?

>

> Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this? We live in MA.

>

> Many thanks,

>

> P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

right to not have your child injected with toxins.

Let them call CPS; most social workers know that there

is a danger from vaccines and have seen the results.

I advise people to say that the vaccines are up to

date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in the

@$$ otherwise.

--- Austin <webinfusion@...> wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last

> night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> there...)

>

> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the

> very first nurse we saw asked if his vaccinations

> were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

> said that's fine. She then said why they recommend

> tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but

> they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

>

> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we don't

> get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will

> die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> die.

>

> Then he went away and my husband and I talked about

> it, and decided against. We haven't done any reading

> on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

> them 5 years ago when our first child was born. When

> he came back we told him of our choice.

>

> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have

> no choice but to call the police, and DSS.

>

> This perplexed me as I had already been told by two

> nurses that we had the choice, and then the Dr. is

> telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

> held liable and he won't let us leave unless we can

> come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

>

> He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I

> didn't want the vaccine. I said I won't agree to

> inject my child with any vaccine that contains

> thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

> thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it was,

> (preservative) or that it contains mercury.

>

> We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best

> interest of our son was to leave as soon as possible

> and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to

> the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the ingredient

> list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

> without it, so we were told that we will have to

> bring our son to his pediatrician for a tetanus shot

> on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

>

> So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be

> trampled on? I had thought that stating our

> objection that is in compliance with our state law,

> was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> could override us and demand it, or accuse us of

> endangering our child's welfare and involve police &

> DSS?

>

> Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this?

> We live in MA.

>

> Many thanks,

>

> P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

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[Guest guest]

Dear Tracey,

Aside from the rights issue, this doctor displayed gross negligence. Do

you have his name? I would suggest reporting him to the medical

complaints board and to the board of the hospital. You see, the package

insert (manufacturer's information) for the tetanus vaccine states

specifically that if someone has not had the initial 3 booster doses of

tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a tetanus shot post a tetanus-prone

wound because it can increase the risk of developing tetanus! you should

have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead which is a blood-based

product and has lot of its own products. But he obviously has never read

the package information. Also, i would get a copy of the hospital

records because chances are he did not get an individual tetanus vaccine

but got the DPaT instead. If the US is anything like Australia, tetanus

on its own is no longer available - it must come in combination with

either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping cough.

Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when his hand was cut, he

bled and that the hospital or you would have cleaned the wound? In that

case, it would have been next to impossible for him to have developed

tetanus - even if that bottle had been swimming in cow or horse poo

(which I doubt unless you had horses and cows in the house> :-) Tetanus

is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't live in the presence of oxygen. So a

wound that bleeds freely (blood is very highly oxygenated) and that is

cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in hydrogen peroxide (a great

thing to have on hand for this purpose - only costs a couple of dollars

a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to survive. And a homoeopathic

first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great remedy to have on hand

for these situations would be the icing on the cake.

I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath straight away as well

to see about your son's health in case of any ill-effects from the

vaccine and that you immediately write a chronology of what happened in

case of legal action against the hospital or doctor for assault and

negligence. Don't let him get away with bullying you and abusing your

son's health. You owe it to other parents to take some sort of action -

even if it's just writing to the complaints board and the hospital about

this ill-informed jerk.

All the best,

Meryl

<http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?id=13 & g

roup=1>

________________________________

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ]

On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 4:45 AM

Vaccinations

Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

right to not have your child injected with toxins.

Let them call CPS; most social workers know that there

is a danger from vaccines and have seen the results.

I advise people to say that the vaccines are up to

date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in the

@$$ otherwise.

--- Austin <webinfusion@...

<mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net> > wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last

> night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> there...)

>

> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the

> very first nurse we saw asked if his vaccinations

> were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

> said that's fine. She then said why they recommend

> tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but

> they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

>

> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we don't

> get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will

> die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> die.

>

> Then he went away and my husband and I talked about

> it, and decided against. We haven't done any reading

> on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

> them 5 years ago when our first child was born. When

> he came back we told him of our choice.

>

> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have

> no choice but to call the police, and DSS.

>

> This perplexed me as I had already been told by two

> nurses that we had the choice, and then the Dr. is

> telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

> held liable and he won't let us leave unless we can

> come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

>

> He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I

> didn't want the vaccine. I said I won't agree to

> inject my child with any vaccine that contains

> thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

> thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it was,

> (preservative) or that it contains mercury.

>

> We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best

> interest of our son was to leave as soon as possible

> and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to

> the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the ingredient

> list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

> without it, so we were told that we will have to

> bring our son to his pediatrician for a tetanus shot

> on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

>

> So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be

> trampled on? I had thought that stating our

> objection that is in compliance with our state law,

> was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> could override us and demand it, or accuse us of

> endangering our child's welfare and involve police &

> DSS?

>

> Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this?

> We live in MA.

>

> Many thanks,

>

> P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Based on this thread, it occured to me that I had a tetanus shot while very

early pregnant when I had a partial finger amputation. It was on a dirty screw

head that has likely had horse poop on it at one time and I didn't think much of

it, even though I've stopped vaccinating, they made it sound like I would die if

I got tetanus.

Long story short, I was pregnant with my son, who is now 14 months and

wonderfully smart and alert, but is there anything I should do at this point for

myself or for him?

Thanks, in Colorado

Meryl Dorey <meryl@...> wrote:

Dear Tracey,

Aside from the rights issue, this doctor displayed gross negligence. Do

you have his name? I would suggest reporting him to the medical

complaints board and to the board of the hospital. You see, the package

insert (manufacturer's information) for the tetanus vaccine states

specifically that if someone has not had the initial 3 booster doses of

tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a tetanus shot post a tetanus-prone

wound because it can increase the risk of developing tetanus! you should

have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead which is a blood-based

product and has lot of its own products. But he obviously has never read

the package information. Also, i would get a copy of the hospital

records because chances are he did not get an individual tetanus vaccine

but got the DPaT instead. If the US is anything like Australia, tetanus

on its own is no longer available - it must come in combination with

either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping cough.

Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when his hand was cut, he

bled and that the hospital or you would have cleaned the wound? In that

case, it would have been next to impossible for him to have developed

tetanus - even if that bottle had been swimming in cow or horse poo

(which I doubt unless you had horses and cows in the house> :-) Tetanus

is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't live in the presence of oxygen. So a

wound that bleeds freely (blood is very highly oxygenated) and that is

cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in hydrogen peroxide (a great

thing to have on hand for this purpose - only costs a couple of dollars

a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to survive. And a homoeopathic

first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great remedy to have on hand

for these situations would be the icing on the cake.

I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath straight away as well

to see about your son's health in case of any ill-effects from the

vaccine and that you immediately write a chronology of what happened in

case of legal action against the hospital or doctor for assault and

negligence. Don't let him get away with bullying you and abusing your

son's health. You owe it to other parents to take some sort of action -

even if it's just writing to the complaints board and the hospital about

this ill-informed jerk.

All the best,

Meryl

<http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?id=13 & g

roup=1>

________________________________

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ]

On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 4:45 AM

Vaccinations

Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

right to not have your child injected with toxins.

Let them call CPS; most social workers know that there

is a danger from vaccines and have seen the results.

I advise people to say that the vaccines are up to

date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in the

@$$ otherwise.

--- Austin <webinfusion@...

<mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net> > wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last

> night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> there...)

>

> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the

> very first nurse we saw asked if his vaccinations

> were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

> said that's fine. She then said why they recommend

> tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but

> they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

>

> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we don't

> get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will

> die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> die.

>

> Then he went away and my husband and I talked about

> it, and decided against. We haven't done any reading

> on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

> them 5 years ago when our first child was born. When

> he came back we told him of our choice.

>

> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have

> no choice but to call the police, and DSS.

>

> This perplexed me as I had already been told by two

> nurses that we had the choice, and then the Dr. is

> telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

> held liable and he won't let us leave unless we can

> come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

>

> He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I

> didn't want the vaccine. I said I won't agree to

> inject my child with any vaccine that contains

> thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

> thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it was,

> (preservative) or that it contains mercury.

>

> We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best

> interest of our son was to leave as soon as possible

> and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to

> the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the ingredient

> list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

> without it, so we were told that we will have to

> bring our son to his pediatrician for a tetanus shot

> on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

>

> So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be

> trampled on? I had thought that stating our

> objection that is in compliance with our state law,

> was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> could override us and demand it, or accuse us of

> endangering our child's welfare and involve police &

> DSS?

>

> Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this?

> We live in MA.

>

> Many thanks,

>

> P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I think reporting the doctor is futile. I have done

this in the past and the state boards love their

doctors especially if they call CPS on a parent which

they consider their job. It does not matter what the

package insert said. I reported a doctor for the

same thing basically when he wrote a prescription for

penicillin after I told him my son was allergic to

penicillin. Big deal they thought.

>

> Aside from the rights issue, this doctor displayed

> gross negligence. Do

> you have his name? I would suggest reporting him to

> the medical

> complaints board and to the board of the hospital.

> You see, the package

> insert (manufacturer's information) for the tetanus

> vaccine states

> specifically that if someone has not had the initial

> 3 booster doses of

> tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a tetanus shot

> post a tetanus-prone

> wound because it can increase the risk of developing

> tetanus! you should

> have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead

> which is a blood-based

> product and has lot of its own products. But he

> obviously has never read

> the package information. Also, i would get a copy of

> the hospital

> records because chances are he did not get an

> individual tetanus vaccine

> but got the DPaT instead. If the US is anything like

> Australia, tetanus

> on its own is no longer available - it must come in

> combination with

> either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping cough.

>

> Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when

> his hand was cut, he

> bled and that the hospital or you would have cleaned

> the wound? In that

> case, it would have been next to impossible for him

> to have developed

> tetanus - even if that bottle had been swimming in

> cow or horse poo

> (which I doubt unless you had horses and cows in the

> house> :-) Tetanus

> is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't live in the

> presence of oxygen. So a

> wound that bleeds freely (blood is very highly

> oxygenated) and that is

> cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in hydrogen

> peroxide (a great

> thing to have on hand for this purpose - only costs

> a couple of dollars

> a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to survive.

> And a homoeopathic

> first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great

> remedy to have on hand

> for these situations would be the icing on the cake.

>

> I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath

> straight away as well

> to see about your son's health in case of any

> ill-effects from the

> vaccine and that you immediately write a chronology

> of what happened in

> case of legal action against the hospital or doctor

> for assault and

> negligence. Don't let him get away with bullying you

> and abusing your

> son's health. You owe it to other parents to take

> some sort of action -

> even if it's just writing to the complaints board

> and the hospital about

> this ill-informed jerk.

>

> All the best,

> Meryl

>

>

>

<http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?id=13 & g

> roup=1>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: Vaccinations

> [mailto:Vaccinations ]

> On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 4:45 AM

> Vaccinations

> Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac

> forced on our 18

> month-old

>

> Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

> right to not have your child injected with toxins.

> Let them call CPS; most social workers know that

> there

> is a danger from vaccines and have seen the results.

>

>

> I advise people to say that the vaccines are up to

> date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in the

> @$$ otherwise.

> --- Austin <webinfusion@...

> <mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net> > wrote:

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience

> last

> > night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> > because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> > bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> > this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> > there...)

> >

> > Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the

> > very first nurse we saw asked if his vaccinations

> > were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

> > said that's fine. She then said why they recommend

> > tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to

> but

> > they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

> >

> > Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> > Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we don't

> > get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will

> > die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> > will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> > tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> > die.

> >

> > Then he went away and my husband and I talked

> about

> > it, and decided against. We haven't done any

> reading

> > on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

> > them 5 years ago when our first child was born.

> When

> > he came back we told him of our choice.

> >

> > Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would

> have

> > no choice but to call the police, and DSS.

> >

> > This perplexed me as I had already been told by

> two

> > nurses that we had the choice, and then the Dr. is

> > telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

> > held liable and he won't let us leave unless we

> can

> > come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> > allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

> >

> > He asked if I had any specific concerns about why

> I

> > didn't want the vaccine. I said I won't agree to

> > inject my child with any vaccine that contains

> > thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> > nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

> > thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it

> was,

> > (preservative) or that it contains mercury.

> >

> > We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best

> > interest of our son was to leave as soon as

> possible

> > and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to

> > the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the

> ingredient

> > list with the nurse and verifying it did not

> contain

> > thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

> > without it, so we were told that we will have to

> > bring our son to his pediatrician for a tetanus

> shot

> > on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

> >

> > So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to

> be

> > trampled on? I had thought that stating our

> > objection that is in compliance with our state

> law,

> > was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> > could override us and demand it, or accuse us of

> > endangering our child's welfare and involve police

> &

> > DSS?

> >

>

=== message truncated ===

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[Guest guest]

It seems you were not the first non-vaxing mom to enter this ER based on the

nonchalant response from the nurse who clearly knew what your rights were. From

the little I know of your terrible experience, it seems that the question you

asked the doctor was the fuel that lit the fire and put you in a precarious

situation. This is why it is so important to know what you are up against and to

never open or enter any dialogue that involves why you don't vaccinate other

than what your legal exemption affords you. Again, I'm so sorry for you and your

babe........Anita

maureen gradvohl <mrsvoltaire@...> wrote: I think reporting the doctor

is futile. I have done

this in the past and the state boards love their

doctors especially if they call CPS on a parent which

they consider their job. It does not matter what the

package insert said. I reported a doctor for the

same thing basically when he wrote a prescription for

penicillin after I told him my son was allergic to

penicillin. Big deal they thought.

---------------------------------

Get the free toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware

protection.

[Guest guest]

WHen we went to the ER and they asked if her shots were up to date I said

" Yes " and left it at that, they have no proof, and don't ask for it and it's

such a vague questions " Up to date " IMO means up to date according to me so

yes, according to me they are up to date:)!

************

If breastfeeding in public disturbs you, please feel free to put a blanket

over your head or go finish your meal in the restroom.

************

Kristi B. , LMT, BA, MBA

Healing Waters Therapy

(904) 886-0847

www.healingwaterstherapy.com

[Guest guest]

Well, yeah, but I still think she should report it. The doctor

threatened to go after her -- she should go after him.

-Angie

On May 14, 2007, at 12:21 AM, maureen gradvohl wrote:

> I think reporting the doctor is futile. I have done

> this in the past and the state boards love their

> doctors especially if they call CPS on a parent which

> they consider their job. It does not matter what the

> package insert said. I reported a doctor for the

> same thing basically when he wrote a prescription for

> penicillin after I told him my son was allergic to

> penicillin. Big deal they thought.

>

>>

>> Aside from the rights issue, this doctor displayed

>> gross negligence. Do

>> you have his name? I would suggest reporting him to

>> the medical

>> complaints board and to the board of the hospital.

>> You see, the package

>> insert (manufacturer's information) for the tetanus

>> vaccine states

>> specifically that if someone has not had the initial

>> 3 booster doses of

>> tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a tetanus shot

>> post a tetanus-prone

>> wound because it can increase the risk of developing

>> tetanus! you should

>> have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead

>> which is a blood-based

>> product and has lot of its own products. But he

>> obviously has never read

>> the package information. Also, i would get a copy of

>> the hospital

>> records because chances are he did not get an

>> individual tetanus vaccine

>> but got the DPaT instead. If the US is anything like

>> Australia, tetanus

>> on its own is no longer available - it must come in

>> combination with

>> either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping cough.

>>

>> Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when

>> his hand was cut, he

>> bled and that the hospital or you would have cleaned

>> the wound? In that

>> case, it would have been next to impossible for him

>> to have developed

>> tetanus - even if that bottle had been swimming in

>> cow or horse poo

>> (which I doubt unless you had horses and cows in the

>> house> :-) Tetanus

>> is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't live in the

>> presence of oxygen. So a

>> wound that bleeds freely (blood is very highly

>> oxygenated) and that is

>> cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in hydrogen

>> peroxide (a great

>> thing to have on hand for this purpose - only costs

>> a couple of dollars

>> a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to survive.

>> And a homoeopathic

>> first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great

>> remedy to have on hand

>> for these situations would be the icing on the cake.

>>

>> I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath

>> straight away as well

>> to see about your son's health in case of any

>> ill-effects from the

>> vaccine and that you immediately write a chronology

>> of what happened in

>> case of legal action against the hospital or doctor

>> for assault and

>> negligence. Don't let him get away with bullying you

>> and abusing your

>> son's health. You owe it to other parents to take

>> some sort of action -

>> even if it's just writing to the complaints board

>> and the hospital about

>> this ill-informed jerk.

>>

>> All the best,

>> Meryl

>>

>>

>>

> <http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?

> id=13 & g

>> roup=1>

>>

>>

>> ________________________________

>>

>> From: Vaccinations

>> [mailto:Vaccinations ]

>> On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

>> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 4:45 AM

>> Vaccinations

>> Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac

>> forced on our 18

>> month-old

>>

>> Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

>> right to not have your child injected with toxins.

>> Let them call CPS; most social workers know that

>> there

>> is a danger from vaccines and have seen the results.

>>

>>

>> I advise people to say that the vaccines are up to

>> date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in the

>> @$$ otherwise.

>> --- Austin <webinfusion@...

>> <mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net> > wrote:

>>

>>> Hi all,

>>>

>>> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience

>> last

>>> night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

>>> because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

>>> bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

>>> this house and didn't even know the bottle was

>>> there...)

>>>

>>> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the

>>> very first nurse we saw asked if his vaccinations

>>> were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

>>> said that's fine. She then said why they recommend

>>> tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to

>> but

>>> they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

>>>

>>> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

>>> Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we don't

>>> get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will

>>> die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

>>> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

>>> tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

>>> die.

>>>

>>> Then he went away and my husband and I talked

>> about

>>> it, and decided against. We haven't done any

>> reading

>>> on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

>>> them 5 years ago when our first child was born.

>> When

>>> he came back we told him of our choice.

>>>

>>> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would

>> have

>>> no choice but to call the police, and DSS.

>>>

>>> This perplexed me as I had already been told by

>> two

>>> nurses that we had the choice, and then the Dr. is

>>> telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

>>> held liable and he won't let us leave unless we

>> can

>>> come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

>>> allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

>>>

>>> He asked if I had any specific concerns about why

>> I

>>> didn't want the vaccine. I said I won't agree to

>>> inject my child with any vaccine that contains

>>> thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

>>> nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

>>> thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it

>> was,

>>> (preservative) or that it contains mercury.

>>>

>>> We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best

>>> interest of our son was to leave as soon as

>> possible

>>> and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to

>>> the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the

>> ingredient

>>> list with the nurse and verifying it did not

>> contain

>>> thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

>>> without it, so we were told that we will have to

>>> bring our son to his pediatrician for a tetanus

>> shot

>>> on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

>>>

>>> So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to

>> be

>>> trampled on? I had thought that stating our

>>> objection that is in compliance with our state

>> law,

>>> was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

>>> could override us and demand it, or accuse us of

>>> endangering our child's welfare and involve police

>> &

>>> DSS?

>>>

>>

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

> ______________________________________________________________________

> ______________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck

> in the all-new Beta.

> http://advision.webevents./mailbeta/newmail_html.html

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What a horrible experience, but kudos to you for being honest. I

would have been very freaked out when threatened with CPS, so I'm

glad you stood your ground. Very difficult situation, when you're

already freaked out about your child's injury enough to be in the ER,

and then crap like this is foisted on you.

Glad you all came out OK. -Angie

On May 13, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Austin wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last night in the

> ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in because of a cut he got when he

> picked up an old bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> this house and didn't even know the bottle was there...)

>

> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the very first nurse

> we saw asked if his vaccinations were up to date. I said we don't

> vaccinate and she said that's fine. She then said why they

> recommend tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but they

> highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

>

> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the Doctor. I asked him

> what could happen if we don't get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr.

> said " He will die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets tetanus? " Then he

> waffled some and said he could die.

>

> Then he went away and my husband and I talked about it, and decided

> against. We haven't done any reading on vaccinations lately, but we

> had decided against them 5 years ago when our first child was born.

> When he came back we told him of our choice.

>

> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have no choice but

> to call the police, and DSS.

>

> This perplexed me as I had already been told by two nurses that we

> had the choice, and then the Dr. is telling us it is his

> responsibility, he could be held liable and he won't let us leave

> unless we can come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

>

> He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I didn't want the

> vaccine. I said I won't agree to inject my child with any vaccine

> that contains thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> nurses if the tetanus vac still contained thimerosal, and none of

> them even knew what it was, (preservative) or that it contains

> mercury.

>

> We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best interest of our

> son was to leave as soon as possible and not risk him being taken

> away. So we agree to the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the

> ingredient list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac without it, so we

> were told that we will have to bring our son to his pediatrician

> for a tetanus shot on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

>

> So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be trampled on? I

> had thought that stating our objection that is in compliance with

> our state law, was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> could override us and demand it, or accuse us of endangering our

> child's welfare and involve police & DSS?

>

> Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this? We live in MA.

>

> Many thanks,

>

> P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm in MA as well. Where are you located? What hospital did

you go to?

Kelley

In Vaccinations , Totten <afaltotten@...>

wrote:

>

> What a horrible experience, but kudos to you for being honest. I

> would have been very freaked out when threatened with CPS, so I'm

> glad you stood your ground. Very difficult situation, when you're

> already freaked out about your child's injury enough to be in the

ER,

> and then crap like this is foisted on you.

>

> Glad you all came out OK. -Angie

>

> On May 13, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Austin wrote:

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last night in

the

> > ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in because of a cut he got when

he

> > picked up an old bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just

bought

> > this house and didn't even know the bottle was there...)

> >

> > Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the very first

nurse

> > we saw asked if his vaccinations were up to date. I said we

don't

> > vaccinate and she said that's fine. She then said why they

> > recommend tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but

they

> > highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

> >

> > Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the Doctor. I asked

him

> > what could happen if we don't get the shot and he got tetanus?

Dr.

> > said " He will die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> > will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets tetanus? " Then he

> > waffled some and said he could die.

> >

> > Then he went away and my husband and I talked about it, and

decided

> > against. We haven't done any reading on vaccinations lately, but

we

> > had decided against them 5 years ago when our first child was

born.

> > When he came back we told him of our choice.

> >

> > Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have no choice

but

> > to call the police, and DSS.

> >

> > This perplexed me as I had already been told by two nurses that

we

> > had the choice, and then the Dr. is telling us it is his

> > responsibility, he could be held liable and he won't let us

leave

> > unless we can come to some agreement (meaning agree with him

and

> > allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

> >

> > He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I didn't want

the

> > vaccine. I said I won't agree to inject my child with any

vaccine

> > that contains thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> > nurses if the tetanus vac still contained thimerosal, and none

of

> > them even knew what it was, (preservative) or that it contains

> > mercury.

> >

> > We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best interest of

our

> > son was to leave as soon as possible and not risk him being

taken

> > away. So we agree to the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the

> > ingredient list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> > thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac without it, so

we

> > were told that we will have to bring our son to his

pediatrician

> > for a tetanus shot on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

> >

> > So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be trampled on?

I

> > had thought that stating our objection that is in compliance

with

> > our state law, was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> > could override us and demand it, or accuse us of endangering

our

> > child's welfare and involve police & DSS?

> >

> > Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this? We live in

MA.

> >

> > Many thanks,

> >

> > P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

HI ,

It's funny but we were just going to say yes, he was up to date. Then

in the moment I said we choose not to vaccinate.

I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

credibility. I don't know if they have that ability, but since

everything is computerized these days, I thought they probably could.

Warmly,

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last night in the

> > ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in because of a cut he got when he

> > picked up an old bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> > this house and didn't even know the bottle was there...)

> >

> > Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the very first nurse

> > we saw asked if his vaccinations were up to date. I said we don't

> > vaccinate and she said that's fine. She then said why they

> > recommend tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but they

> > highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

> >

> > Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the Doctor. I asked him

> > what could happen if we don't get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr.

> > said " He will die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> > will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets tetanus? " Then he

> > waffled some and said he could die.

> >

> > Then he went away and my husband and I talked about it, and decided

> > against. We haven't done any reading on vaccinations lately, but we

> > had decided against them 5 years ago when our first child was born.

> > When he came back we told him of our choice.

> >

> > Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have no choice but

> > to call the police, and DSS.

> >

> > This perplexed me as I had already been told by two nurses that we

> > had the choice, and then the Dr. is telling us it is his

> > responsibility, he could be held liable and he won't let us leave

> > unless we can come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> > allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

> >

> > He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I didn't want the

> > vaccine. I said I won't agree to inject my child with any vaccine

> > that contains thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> > nurses if the tetanus vac still contained thimerosal, and none of

> > them even knew what it was, (preservative) or that it contains

> > mercury.

> >

> > We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best interest of our

> > son was to leave as soon as possible and not risk him being taken

> > away. So we agree to the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the

> > ingredient list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> > thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac without it, so we

> > were told that we will have to bring our son to his pediatrician

> > for a tetanus shot on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

> >

> > So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be trampled on? I

> > had thought that stating our objection that is in compliance with

> > our state law, was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> > could override us and demand it, or accuse us of endangering our

> > child's welfare and involve police & DSS?

> >

> > Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this? We live in MA.

> >

> > Many thanks,

> >

> > P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>>Let them call CPS; most social workers know that there

is a danger from vaccines and have seen the results.<<

I wish I had known this. It never occurred to me...

Warmly,

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience last

> > night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> > because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> > bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just bought

> > this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> > there...)

> >

> > Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course the

> > very first nurse we saw asked if his vaccinations

> > were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and she

> > said that's fine. She then said why they recommend

> > tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to but

> > they highly recommend it for this sort of injury.

> >

> > Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> > Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we don't

> > get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He will

> > die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my son

> > will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> > tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> > die.

> >

> > Then he went away and my husband and I talked about

> > it, and decided against. We haven't done any reading

> > on vaccinations lately, but we had decided against

> > them 5 years ago when our first child was born. When

> > he came back we told him of our choice.

> >

> > Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would have

> > no choice but to call the police, and DSS.

> >

> > This perplexed me as I had already been told by two

> > nurses that we had the choice, and then the Dr. is

> > telling us it is his responsibility, he could be

> > held liable and he won't let us leave unless we can

> > come to some agreement (meaning agree with him and

> > allow the shots - DTP and tetanus hemoglobin)

> >

> > He asked if I had any specific concerns about why I

> > didn't want the vaccine. I said I won't agree to

> > inject my child with any vaccine that contains

> > thimerosal. I had previously asked him and both

> > nurses if the tetanus vac still contained

> > thimerosal, and none of them even knew what it was,

> > (preservative) or that it contains mercury.

> >

> > We finally agreed (my husband and I) that the best

> > interest of our son was to leave as soon as possible

> > and not risk him being taken away. So we agree to

> > the tetanus hemoglobin after reading the ingredient

> > list with the nurse and verifying it did not contain

> > thimerosal. They didn't have a single tetanus vac

> > without it, so we were told that we will have to

> > bring our son to his pediatrician for a tetanus shot

> > on Monday and have 2 follow ups.

> >

> > So I'm left wondering if I allowed our rights to be

> > trampled on? I had thought that stating our

> > objection that is in compliance with our state law,

> > was all I had to do? I had NO idea that the Dr.

> > could override us and demand it, or accuse us of

> > endangering our child's welfare and involve police &

> > DSS?

> >

> > Any thoughts from anyone on the legalities of this?

> > We live in MA.

> >

> > Many thanks,

> >

> > P.S. Happy Mother's Day to all the moms here:-)

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

so far, medical records are still on paper and are still subject to

privacy laws.

it's like one mom saying " well, I have the right to know which children

at school aren't vaccinated " .. no you don't. that's medical and personal

knowledge and it's not required to be shared.

Nita, busy mom to: 14, Jon 12, 10, 8, 5,

Christian (RIP: 7/16/03 to 8/22/04), and 1

I'm like a snapdragon: half of me has snapped and the other is draggin'

HYPERLINK

" http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15657/grpspId=1705126171/msg

Id=103800/stime=1179238344/nc1=3848528/nc2=4025373/nc3=3 "

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007

4:46 PM

[Guest guest]

Hi Meryl,

you wrote:

Dear Tracey,

Aside from the rights issue, this doctor displayed gross negligence. Do you have

his name? I would suggest reporting him to the medical complaints board and to

the board of the hospital. You see, the package insert (manufacturer's

information) for the tetanus vaccine states specifically that if someone has not

had the initial 3 booster doses of tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a

tetanus shot post a tetanus-prone wound because it can increase the risk of

developing tetanus! you should have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead

which is a blood-based product and has lot of its own products. But he obviously

has never read

the package information. <<

I actually think it was the immunoglobulin (I mistakenly wrote hemoglobin) that

was used, so he at least did know that. I saw the package insert, and read it

with the nurse. I wanted to make sure it didn't have thimerosal, I didn't know

about this contraindication.

>>Also, i would get a copy of the hospital records because chances are he did

not get an individual tetanus vaccine but got the DPaT instead. If the US is

anything like Australia, tetanus on its own is no longer available - it must

come in combination with either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping cough.<<

He told me this was all they had (DPaT) and I flat out refused it. He said he

was fine with giving him just the immunoglobulin and that we would follow up

with son's ped for 2 more shots. (4 weeks & 6 months).

>>Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when his hand was cut, he bled

and that the hospital or you would have cleaned the wound? In that case, it

would have been next to impossible for him to have developed tetanus - even if

that bottle had been swimming in cow or horse poo (which I doubt unless you had

horses and cows in the house> :-) Tetanus is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't

live in the presence of oxygen. So a wound that bleeds freely (blood is very

highly oxygenated) and that is cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in

hydrogen peroxide (a great thing to have on hand for this purpose - only costs a

couple of dollars

a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to survive.<<

When we got in, the first thing the nurse did was spread a clear gel onto the

cut - without cleaning it - and covered it with a clear bandage. The gel was to

numb it.

It was cleaned when that was removed, bu my husband and I under warm running

water. That was the doctor's idea. He said " I think the best way to clean it

would be with water, why don't you go ahead and do that. " And he left the room.

Should the wound have been washing before the numbing gel was applied, I wonder?

Is it common practice for the parents to wash their child's wound, without help

and with only tap water?

He told me tetanus was " everywhere " and it was so easy to get and die from. I

haven't done any reading on it since my first was born 5 year ago so he did

effectively cause me to doubt my choice. My mistake.

>>And a homoeopathic first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great remedy to

have on hand for these situations would be the icing on the cake.<<

Thanks, I'll look into this remedy as well. We do see a naturopathic doctor who

is also a homeopath. When she asked if we vaccinate, though and I said no, she

said " even tetanus? " (If I have time, right after I send this, I'm going to

start a thread on tetanus to discuss some info I found today)

>>I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath straight away as well to see

about your son's health in case of any ill-effects from the vaccine and that you

immediately write a chronology of what happened in case of legal action against

the hospital or doctor for assault and negligence. Don't let him get away with

bullying you and abusing your son's health. You owe it to other parents to take

some sort of action - even if it's just writing to the complaints board and the

hospital about this ill-informed jerk.<<

I agree and am contemplating what to do. I have yet to find out if a dr. can

legally override this decision in an emergency though? I mean I know our rights

regarding school, but when I was there in the er, I was thinking maybe (with all

of the changes taking place these days) I was mistaken and he could have my son

removed from our home for this? That was too big a risk, IMO.

Thanks for your everyone's input, I greatly appreciate it.

Warmly,

PS a friend on another list told me that she has prepared and distributed

Advance Directives that make her choice to not vaccinate clear, to the local

hospitals where her children might be taken in an emergency. Has anyone here

done this? (like a birth plan where you state your choice and include supporting

information. It's then placed in your childrens files or under their names if

they have no file. What a great way to not have to remember everything in the

heat of the moment.)

[Guest guest]

I just heard this one the other day too, a mom wanting to know if kids at her

kids school were unvaccinated.

I've never quite understood this argument. If your kids are vaccinated, and

you believe in the effectiveness of vaccines, then what the hell is my child

going to do to yours? (speaking as if I'm talking to that mom)

In fact, the sloughing off of the vaccine seems more dangerous to my

unvaccinated kid than anything else????

Venita Garner <nitagarner@...> wrote:

so far, medical records are still on paper and are still subject to

privacy laws.

it's like one mom saying " well, I have the right to know which children

at school aren't vaccinated " .. no you don't. that's medical and personal

knowledge and it's not required to be shared.

Nita, busy mom to: 14, Jon 12, 10, 8, 5,

Christian (RIP: 7/16/03 to 8/22/04), and 1

I'm like a snapdragon: half of me has snapped and the other is draggin'

HYPERLINK

" http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15657/grpspId=1705126171/msg

Id=103800/stime=1179238344/nc1=3848528/nc2=4025373/nc3=3 "

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007

4:46 PM

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree that she ehould report him. If he gets

enough complaints in his file in the state licensing

board or wherever the complaints go, then maybe he

will be called up and reprimanded. Turn about fair

play!

--- Totten <afaltotten@...> wrote:

> Well, yeah, but I still think she should report it.

> The doctor

> threatened to go after her -- she should go after

> him.

>

> -Angie

>

> On May 14, 2007, at 12:21 AM, maureen gradvohl

> wrote:

>

> > I think reporting the doctor is futile. I have

> done

> > this in the past and the state boards love their

> > doctors especially if they call CPS on a parent

> which

> > they consider their job. It does not matter what

> the

> > package insert said. I reported a doctor for the

> > same thing basically when he wrote a prescription

> for

> > penicillin after I told him my son was allergic to

> > penicillin. Big deal they thought.

> >

> >>

> >> Aside from the rights issue, this doctor

> displayed

> >> gross negligence. Do

> >> you have his name? I would suggest reporting him

> to

> >> the medical

> >> complaints board and to the board of the

> hospital.

> >> You see, the package

> >> insert (manufacturer's information) for the

> tetanus

> >> vaccine states

> >> specifically that if someone has not had the

> initial

> >> 3 booster doses of

> >> tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a tetanus

> shot

> >> post a tetanus-prone

> >> wound because it can increase the risk of

> developing

> >> tetanus! you should

> >> have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead

> >> which is a blood-based

> >> product and has lot of its own products. But he

> >> obviously has never read

> >> the package information. Also, i would get a copy

> of

> >> the hospital

> >> records because chances are he did not get an

> >> individual tetanus vaccine

> >> but got the DPaT instead. If the US is anything

> like

> >> Australia, tetanus

> >> on its own is no longer available - it must come

> in

> >> combination with

> >> either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping

> cough.

> >>

> >> Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when

> >> his hand was cut, he

> >> bled and that the hospital or you would have

> cleaned

> >> the wound? In that

> >> case, it would have been next to impossible for

> him

> >> to have developed

> >> tetanus - even if that bottle had been swimming

> in

> >> cow or horse poo

> >> (which I doubt unless you had horses and cows in

> the

> >> house> :-) Tetanus

> >> is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't live in the

> >> presence of oxygen. So a

> >> wound that bleeds freely (blood is very highly

> >> oxygenated) and that is

> >> cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in

> hydrogen

> >> peroxide (a great

> >> thing to have on hand for this purpose - only

> costs

> >> a couple of dollars

> >> a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to

> survive.

> >> And a homoeopathic

> >> first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great

> >> remedy to have on hand

> >> for these situations would be the icing on the

> cake.

> >>

> >> I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath

> >> straight away as well

> >> to see about your son's health in case of any

> >> ill-effects from the

> >> vaccine and that you immediately write a

> chronology

> >> of what happened in

> >> case of legal action against the hospital or

> doctor

> >> for assault and

> >> negligence. Don't let him get away with bullying

> you

> >> and abusing your

> >> son's health. You owe it to other parents to take

> >> some sort of action -

> >> even if it's just writing to the complaints board

> >> and the hospital about

> >> this ill-informed jerk.

> >>

> >> All the best,

> >> Meryl

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

>

<http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?

>

> > id=13 & g

> >> roup=1>

> >>

> >>

> >> ________________________________

> >>

> >> From: Vaccinations

> >> [mailto:Vaccinations ]

> >> On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

> >> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 4:45 AM

> >> Vaccinations

> >> Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus

> vac

> >> forced on our 18

> >> month-old

> >>

> >> Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

> >> right to not have your child injected with

> toxins.

> >> Let them call CPS; most social workers know that

> >> there

> >> is a danger from vaccines and have seen the

> results.

> >>

> >>

> >> I advise people to say that the vaccines are up

> to

> >> date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in

> the

> >> @$$ otherwise.

> >> --- Austin <webinfusion@...

> >> <mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net> > wrote:

> >>

> >>> Hi all,

> >>>

> >>> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience

> >> last

> >>> night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> >>> because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> >>> bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just

> bought

> >>> this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> >>> there...)

> >>>

> >>> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course

> the

> >>> very first nurse we saw asked if his

> vaccinations

> >>> were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and

> she

> >>> said that's fine. She then said why they

> recommend

> >>> tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to

> >> but

> >>> they highly recommend it for this sort of

> injury.

> >>>

> >>> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> >>> Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we

> don't

> >>> get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He

> will

> >>> die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my

> son

> >>> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> >>> tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> >>> die.

> >>>

> >>> Then he went away and my husband and I talked

> >> about

> >>> it, and decided against. We haven't done any

> >> reading

> >>> on vaccinations lately, but we had decided

> against

> >>> them 5 years ago when our first child was born.

> >> When

> >>> he came back we told him of our choice.

> >>>

> >>> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would

>

=== message truncated ===

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love

(and love to hate): TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

http://tv./collections/265

[Guest guest]

I just love this quote by :

" Nothing will stir the angry ardor and abhorrence of those in the

system more than rejection of benefits and offers or non compliance

with the state of affairs or affairs of the State. To say in a

pristine and orderly hospital, " I am the Father and I have taken

responsibility for this Child " can stir a great wrath from many within

those sacred chambers and send waves of stirring reality rippling

through those hollowed halls. "

doesn't have a bunch of fancy letters behind his name, but he

studies and writes about the deep subjects of law and freedom. The

" Advance Directives " that was mentioned in the post sounds like a good

thing to have prepared for ER situations.

Dan

[Guest guest]

If we don't report abuse by doctors, then we are giving tacit consent

for that abuse to continue. I know those are strong words, but I believe

them strongly! When a woman is raped, she needs to go through hell to

report that abuse so that the rapist can hopefully be punished and other

women won't be subjected to their sickness. This is exactly the same.

What this doctor did is medical rape - with penetration! And he will

continue to do this as long as we continue to ignore it because it's all

'too hard'. It's time to take our power back and stop this abuse.

Complaints need to be filed and followed through on if there is not an

appropriate response.

There is my .02 J

All the best,

Meryl

<http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?id=13 & g

roup=1>

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ]

On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2007 6:30 AM

Vaccinations

Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

Yes, I agree that she ehould report him. If he gets

enough complaints in his file in the state licensing

board or wherever the complaints go, then maybe he

will be called up and reprimanded. Turn about fair

play!

--- Totten <afaltotten@...

<mailto:afaltotten%40verizon.net> > wrote:

> Well, yeah, but I still think she should report it.

> The doctor

> threatened to go after her -- she should go after

> him.

>

> -Angie

>

> On May 14, 2007, at 12:21 AM, maureen gradvohl

> wrote:

>

> > I think reporting the doctor is futile. I have

> done

> > this in the past and the state boards love their

> > doctors especially if they call CPS on a parent

> which

> > they consider their job. It does not matter what

> the

> > package insert said. I reported a doctor for the

> > same thing basically when he wrote a prescription

> for

> > penicillin after I told him my son was allergic to

> > penicillin. Big deal they thought.

> >

> >>

> >> Aside from the rights issue, this doctor

> displayed

> >> gross negligence. Do

> >> you have his name? I would suggest reporting him

> to

> >> the medical

> >> complaints board and to the board of the

> hospital.

> >> You see, the package

> >> insert (manufacturer's information) for the

> tetanus

> >> vaccine states

> >> specifically that if someone has not had the

> initial

> >> 3 booster doses of

> >> tetanus vaccine, they are NOT to get a tetanus

> shot

> >> post a tetanus-prone

> >> wound because it can increase the risk of

> developing

> >> tetanus! you should

> >> have been offered tetanus immunoglobulin instead

> >> which is a blood-based

> >> product and has lot of its own products. But he

> >> obviously has never read

> >> the package information. Also, i would get a copy

> of

> >> the hospital

> >> records because chances are he did not get an

> >> individual tetanus vaccine

> >> but got the DPaT instead. If the US is anything

> like

> >> Australia, tetanus

> >> on its own is no longer available - it must come

> in

> >> combination with

> >> either diphtheria or diphtheria and whooping

> cough.

> >>

> >> Oh, and one other thing...i am assuming that when

> >> his hand was cut, he

> >> bled and that the hospital or you would have

> cleaned

> >> the wound? In that

> >> case, it would have been next to impossible for

> him

> >> to have developed

> >> tetanus - even if that bottle had been swimming

> in

> >> cow or horse poo

> >> (which I doubt unless you had horses and cows in

> the

> >> house> :-) Tetanus

> >> is an anaerobic bacteria. It can't live in the

> >> presence of oxygen. So a

> >> wound that bleeds freely (blood is very highly

> >> oxygenated) and that is

> >> cleaned and exposed to air or is soaked in

> hydrogen

> >> peroxide (a great

> >> thing to have on hand for this purpose - only

> costs

> >> a couple of dollars

> >> a bottle) will not allow these bacteria to

> survive.

> >> And a homoeopathic

> >> first aid kit containing Ledum which is a great

> >> remedy to have on hand

> >> for these situations would be the icing on the

> cake.

> >>

> >> I would suggest that you visit a good homoeopath

> >> straight away as well

> >> to see about your son's health in case of any

> >> ill-effects from the

> >> vaccine and that you immediately write a

> chronology

> >> of what happened in

> >> case of legal action against the hospital or

> doctor

> >> for assault and

> >> negligence. Don't let him get away with bullying

> you

> >> and abusing your

> >> son's health. You owe it to other parents to take

> >> some sort of action -

> >> even if it's just writing to the complaints board

> >> and the hospital about

> >> this ill-informed jerk.

> >>

> >> All the best,

> >> Meryl

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

>

<http://www.avn.org.au/catalog/affiliate/affiliate/affiliate.php?

>

> > id=13 & g

> >> roup=1>

> >>

> >>

> >> ________________________________

> >>

> >> From: Vaccinations

<mailto:Vaccinations%40>

> >> [mailto:Vaccinations

<mailto:Vaccinations%40> ]

> >> On Behalf Of maureen gradvohl

> >> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 4:45 AM

> >> Vaccinations

<mailto:Vaccinations%40>

> >> Subject: Re: ER visit - tetanus

> vac

> >> forced on our 18

> >> month-old

> >>

> >> Yes, you had your rights trampled on. You have a

> >> right to not have your child injected with

> toxins.

> >> Let them call CPS; most social workers know that

> >> there

> >> is a danger from vaccines and have seen the

> results.

> >>

> >>

> >> I advise people to say that the vaccines are up

> to

> >> date to avoid this struggle. What a huge pain in

> the

> >> @$$ otherwise.

> >> --- Austin <webinfusion@...

<mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net>

> >> <mailto:webinfusion%40comcast.net> > wrote:

> >>

> >>> Hi all,

> >>>

> >>> I'm new. I wanted to post about our experience

> >> last

> >>> night in the ER. We brought our 18 m/o son in

> >>> because of a cut he got when he picked up an old

> >>> bottle that shattered in his hand. (we just

> bought

> >>> this house and didn't even know the bottle was

> >>> there...)

> >>>

> >>> Anyway, it of course took hours, and of course

> the

> >>> very first nurse we saw asked if his

> vaccinations

> >>> were up to date. I said we don't vaccinate and

> she

> >>> said that's fine. She then said why they

> recommend

> >>> tetanus, and that we could refuse if we want to

> >> but

> >>> they highly recommend it for this sort of

> injury.

> >>>

> >>> Fast forward 3 hours to a conversation with the

> >>> Doctor. I asked him what could happen if we

> don't

> >>> get the shot and he got tetanus? Dr. said " He

> will

> >>> die. " Of course I said " You are telling me my

> son

> >>> will absolutely, unequivocally DIE if he gets

> >>> tetanus? " Then he waffled some and said he could

> >>> die.

> >>>

> >>> Then he went away and my husband and I talked

> >> about

> >>> it, and decided against. We haven't done any

> >> reading

> >>> on vaccinations lately, but we had decided

> against

> >>> them 5 years ago when our first child was born.

> >> When

> >>> he came back we told him of our choice.

> >>>

> >>> Then the doctor told us if we refused, he would

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________________

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love

(and love to hate): TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

http://tv./collections/265

[Guest guest]

At 05:13 PM 5/16/2007 +1000, you wrote:

>If we don't report abuse by doctors, then we are giving tacit consent

>for that abuse to continue. I know those are strong words, but I believe

>them strongly! When a woman is raped, she needs to go through hell to

>report that abuse so that the rapist can hopefully be punished and other

>women won't be subjected to their sickness. This is exactly the same.

>What this doctor did is medical rape - with penetration! And he will

>continue to do this as long as we continue to ignore it because it's all

>'too hard'. It's time to take our power back and stop this abuse.

>Complaints need to be filed and followed through on if there is not an

>appropriate response.

>

>There is my .02 J

>

>All the best,

>

>Meryl

>

>

Excellent Meryl

too many don't and that is why they get away with it.

I hadn't had a chance to respond to this yet but will say that the child

got tetanus immuneglobulin, it sounds like.

This is made from pooled blood of vaccinated.

I'll send info.

And I agree - if you go to the ER, just say the child is up to date. Final.

And have all your ducks in a row! Be prepared for these things. Have a

homeopath who can help you.

Rehearse what you will do and say.

It is vital.

Your child will probably be fine from this injection - its not a vaccine,

but its not something I would want either. Watch the child and see a

quality homeopath if anything starts to come up.

See my tetanus pages for more info

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/tetanus.htm

Sheri

>

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

If the doctor wanted to protect himself from liability, all he had to do was

chart that the parents refused the injection and that they would be following

up with their family physician. I don't know why he was so threatened by your

stance.

Becca

**************************************

See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

I think that's true. I also think you can extend it to mean rejecting

anything that the majority of people hold to be important, or indeed

anything where people expect you to be thankful for their help. In a

hospital, there is such a built-in expectation that anyone who comes

in there will be grateful for the expertise and help of the staff,

that to reject it seems scary and dangerous. Rejecting the status quo

is generally viewed as scary and dangerous! -Angie

On May 16, 2007, at 12:20 AM, wrote:

> I just love this quote by :

>

> " Nothing will stir the angry ardor and abhorrence of those in the

> system more than rejection of benefits and offers or non compliance

> with the state of affairs or affairs of the State. To say in a

> pristine and orderly hospital, " I am the Father and I have taken

> responsibility for this Child " can stir a great wrath from many within

> those sacred chambers and send waves of stirring reality rippling

> through those hollowed halls. "

[Guest guest]

>

That's the problem I (and a few others) have with lying about it. I

for one am a terrible liar. I was taught that lying is wrong and I

just feel so bad about it that I can't do it with any skill

whatsoever. Some people choose to lie because it makes life easier in

certain circumstances. However, I think doing so chips away at one's

character over time. I have coworkers who lie quite casually and I

don't respect them very much for it. Telling the truth is generally

harder (which is why so many people lie) but builds character and

keeps your conscience clean. It usually means you have to develop

other character traits, such as perseverance and the ability to stick

up for what you believe. Those traits are things that people admire

(if only in the abstract, for some) and that will make you a good

role model for your children. I say, stick with the high road. In the

short run it may be harder, but in the long run is worth it.

I guess that's my sermon for the day... ;-) -Angie

> I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

> or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

> credibility. I

[Guest guest]

When it comes to protecting my children and keeping them from being taken

from social services because some " nut-case " thinks it's wrong to NOT

vaccinate, I WILL lie, I was just at the ER last night with my 13 year old

and the question came up, and I never batted an eye, I said, " yes " and they

moved on to the next question with no hesitation. IF they ask about certain

times or whatever I just say, " I don't remember " but for me they ARE up to

date on their vaccinations. " NO VACCINATIONS " are MY criteria for being up

to date, these are MY children, not theirs, they have no right to hurt them

or kill them or mame (sp?) The Dr.'s office has their exemption letter, in

their files, and no one has a problem there with our not vaccinating.

Western NY

-- Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

>

That's the problem I (and a few others) have with lying about it. I

for one am a terrible liar. I was taught that lying is wrong and I

just feel so bad about it that I can't do it with any skill

whatsoever. Some people choose to lie because it makes life easier in

certain circumstances. However, I think doing so chips away at one's

character over time. I have coworkers who lie quite casually and I

don't respect them very much for it. Telling the truth is generally

harder (which is why so many people lie) but builds character and

keeps your conscience clean. It usually means you have to develop

other character traits, such as perseverance and the ability to stick

up for what you believe. Those traits are things that people admire

(if only in the abstract, for some) and that will make you a good

role model for your children. I say, stick with the high road. In the

short run it may be harder, but in the long run is worth it.

I guess that's my sermon for the day... ;-) -Angie

> I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

> or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

> credibility. I

[Guest guest]

BUT, it isn't really a lie, at least how I look at it. I have taken my kids in

for MANY ER visits and the question is usually the same " Is he up to date on his

immunizations? " Or sometimes it is " And he is up to date on his immunizations? "

My children are not receiving any more vaccines so according to me they ARE up

to date, as up to date as they will ever be. If they asked for dates, then I

would clarify my position, but they never do because in the ER, they don't

really care. I have also found that when they think that you are doing what you

are " supposed to " they take you more seriously and you are treated with more

respect and are not looked upon as a lunatic. It also saves you from having to

defend yourself against overzealous doctors who have placed themselves up high

on their gilded pedastals.

---- Totten <afaltotten@...> wrote:

> >

> That's the problem I (and a few others) have with lying about it. I

> for one am a terrible liar. I was taught that lying is wrong and I

> just feel so bad about it that I can't do it with any skill

> whatsoever. Some people choose to lie because it makes life easier in

> certain circumstances. However, I think doing so chips away at one's

> character over time. I have coworkers who lie quite casually and I

> don't respect them very much for it. Telling the truth is generally

> harder (which is why so many people lie) but builds character and

> keeps your conscience clean. It usually means you have to develop

> other character traits, such as perseverance and the ability to stick

> up for what you believe. Those traits are things that people admire

> (if only in the abstract, for some) and that will make you a good

> role model for your children. I say, stick with the high road. In the

> short run it may be harder, but in the long run is worth it.

>

> I guess that's my sermon for the day... ;-) -Angie

>

> > I was concerned that they would ask me details about his vaccinations,

> > or look it up or something, and then I would have lost all

> > credibility. I

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/20/2007 1:48:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

littlebit27292@... writes:

I'm fueled with fury.

I remember when I first started researching vaccines. It is nice to have

someone bring their excitement into the group. I feel the same as you. I'm

not as gung ho as I was in the beginning. Getting put down time after time

after time has done that to me. But I still try to get the message out.

Thanks

for re-igniting my flame.

Holly

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.