RE: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18 month-old

[Guest guest]

I had an opportunity to speak with Director of the NYS Immunizations Program in

Albany and found him to be most helpful and honest about exemptions too. I hope

you get a response and please share when you do.........Anita

Austin <webinfusion@...> wrote: A quick update on this. I emailed

Mass.Citizens for Vaccination Choice and my email was forwarded to the medical

director of the immunization program at the MA Dept. of Public Health, who wrote

this:

>>I had to make some inquiries about this issue before responding. Medical and

religious exemptions only apply to immunization requirements for child care,

school or college. The MDPH immunization program does not have any regulations

or policies with respect to the administration of immune globulin (I am guessing

that this child received tetanus immune globulin) for the purposes of emergency

treatment. We generally would regard this as a matter between the patient and

physician and beyond the bounds of our program.

It is possible that the Board of Registration in Medicine has general standards

for obtaining consent in an emergency, but you would have to contact the Board

for a definitive answer.

While the last sentence allows some room, I think the note above makes

reasonably clear that the ER MD likely had no cause to threaten you as he

apparently did. If you have a phone number and the doctor's name, along with

what might be an affadivit of what was said, I'd be willing to make a call to

ascertain the motivation and presumed regulations regarding ER vaccination.<<

So I replied with the info he requested. I have not heard back, and don't know

if I will. sorry about the weird formatting. I tried to fix it, but alas...

---------------------------------

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

so what would happen at the ER if a parent said, " My child has a religious

exemption from vaccines as per state law . . . . "

Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

So glad you showed up, Anita! I know you think the same way as me on

this. Lying may be easier in the short run, but is harder in the long

run, and heaven forbid you lie and then are caught, then that makes

you even more suspect in the eyes of CPS.

I admire people who stand up for truth, such as people who are

whistleblowers, who usually lose their jobs and whose families may

suffer as a result of their honesty and character. If I benefit from

others risking for the truth, shouldn't I also tell the truth? I

admire people who have the courage to speak the truth, and I want to

be one of them. -A

On May 22, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Anita Durney wrote:

> In order to change things as we know it, we MUST stand up for and

> defend what WE know to be true. We get on a slippery slope when

> trying to re-educate " the professionals', so I don't recommend

> that. Only truth can bring about the necessary changes and shift in

> thinking toward vaccinations. If we lie, we are surely slowing

> progress in this crucial area. If enough of us speak truth, truth

> will begin to be heard. Last time I checked, I still have the laws

> of my state to back up my choices. How you present the truth and

> the circumstances that lead one to the ER play a huge role in how

> it is handled by staff. Every case is different. Just because you

> don't vax your child doesn't make you immune to a call to CPS. I

> think it's important to remember that.

>

> Anita

[Guest guest]

I'm confused. Are you saying your doctor is advising you to withhold information

because it is not the business of any ER doctor or is she advising you to

outright lie to ER staff? Not judging here, just trying to understand exactly

what your doctor is advising you to do in an ER situation..........Anita

Sassygirl1218@... wrote: Ok, how is this for justification...

Before I began my life as a liar, I spoke with my family doctor about what to

say in the ER regarding vaccines. She is pretty much anti vaccine and told me

that they do not need to know my childrens' vaccine history, as it would not

alter the course of treatment and would open myself up to harassment. The only

doctor who needs to know is her and I am better keeping myself under the radar.

---------------------------------

Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,

photos & more.

[Guest guest]

That would depend on the circumstances and the individuals involved. It could go

either way, I'm sure....Anita

Rippetoe <srippetoe@...> wrote: so what would happen at the ER

if a parent said, " My child has a religious exemption from vaccines as per state

law . . . . "

Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

So glad you showed up, Anita! I know you think the same way as me on

this. Lying may be easier in the short run, but is harder in the long

run, and heaven forbid you lie and then are caught, then that makes

you even more suspect in the eyes of CPS.

I admire people who stand up for truth, such as people who are

whistleblowers, who usually lose their jobs and whose families may

suffer as a result of their honesty and character. If I benefit from

others risking for the truth, shouldn't I also tell the truth? I

admire people who have the courage to speak the truth, and I want to

be one of them. -A

On May 22, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Anita Durney wrote:

> In order to change things as we know it, we MUST stand up for and

> defend what WE know to be true. We get on a slippery slope when

> trying to re-educate " the professionals', so I don't recommend

> that. Only truth can bring about the necessary changes and shift in

> thinking toward vaccinations. If we lie, we are surely slowing

> progress in this crucial area. If enough of us speak truth, truth

> will begin to be heard. Last time I checked, I still have the laws

> of my state to back up my choices. How you present the truth and

> the circumstances that lead one to the ER play a huge role in how

> it is handled by staff. Every case is different. Just because you

> don't vax your child doesn't make you immune to a call to CPS. I

> think it's important to remember that.

>

> Anita

[Guest guest]

She has many patients who do not vaccinate and has had many of them harassed by

ER doctors. She advises her patients to just tell them that they are up to

date, as it would not alter the course of treatment either way and that the only

doctor who really needs to know is her.

I

---- Anita Durney <mydurney@...> wrote:

> I'm confused. Are you saying your doctor is advising you to withhold

information because it is not the business of any ER doctor or is she advising

you to outright lie to ER staff? Not judging here, just trying to understand

exactly what your doctor is advising you to do in an ER situation..........Anita

>

> Sassygirl1218@... wrote: Ok, how is this for justification...

>

> Before I began my life as a liar, I spoke with my family doctor about what to

say in the ER regarding vaccines. She is pretty much anti vaccine and told me

that they do not need to know my childrens' vaccine history, as it would not

alter the course of treatment and would open myself up to harassment. The only

doctor who needs to know is her and I am better keeping myself under the radar.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,

news, photos & more.

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:26 AM 5/22/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>That would depend on the circumstances and the individuals involved. It

could go either way, I'm sure....Anita

>

> Rippetoe <srippetoe@...> wrote: so what would happen at

the ER if a parent said, " My child has a religious exemption from vaccines

as per state law . . . . "

That exemption is only related to school attendance

There is no law to vaccinate in order to live, but they don't seem to

realize that

Sheri

>

> Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

>

>

>So glad you showed up, Anita! I know you think the same way as me on

>this. Lying may be easier in the short run, but is harder in the long

>run, and heaven forbid you lie and then are caught, then that makes

>you even more suspect in the eyes of CPS.

>

>I admire people who stand up for truth, such as people who are

>whistleblowers, who usually lose their jobs and whose families may

>suffer as a result of their honesty and character. If I benefit from

>others risking for the truth, shouldn't I also tell the truth? I

>admire people who have the courage to speak the truth, and I want to

>be one of them. -A

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

I do have an example I would like to share. My son Liam cut his hand deeply on

an open can. It was my others son Henry's Birthday and I had a house full of

family showing up so my husband and mother went to the ER wih Liam. Of course

the tetanus question was asked and my husband calmly and confidently told the ER

surgeon in charge of our sons case that we don't vaccinate our children; the

answer was simply no. My mother (of all people) piped in and tried to get the

doctor to convince my husband that a tetanus vax was necessary for Liam's

safety. I kid you not when the ER surgeon told my mother he could surgically

implant that newly opened can into Liam's little body and he still wouldn't be

at risk for tetanus. I know it sounds too good to be true, but this is a true

story I have shared with this group before. Hope this helps.

Anita

Rippetoe <srippetoe@...> wrote:

so what would happen at the ER if a parent said, " My child has a religious

exemption from vaccines as per state law . . . . "

Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

So glad you showed up, Anita! I know you think the same way as me on

this. Lying may be easier in the short run, but is harder in the long

run, and heaven forbid you lie and then are caught, then that makes

you even more suspect in the eyes of CPS.

I admire people who stand up for truth, such as people who are

whistleblowers, who usually lose their jobs and whose families may

suffer as a result of their honesty and character. If I benefit from

others risking for the truth, shouldn't I also tell the truth? I

admire people who have the courage to speak the truth, and I want to

be one of them. -A

On May 22, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Anita Durney wrote:

> In order to change things as we know it, we MUST stand up for and

> defend what WE know to be true. We get on a slippery slope when

> trying to re-educate " the professionals', so I don't recommend

> that. Only truth can bring about the necessary changes and shift in

> thinking toward vaccinations. If we lie, we are surely slowing

> progress in this crucial area. If enough of us speak truth, truth

> will begin to be heard. Last time I checked, I still have the laws

> of my state to back up my choices. How you present the truth and

> the circumstances that lead one to the ER play a huge role in how

> it is handled by staff. Every case is different. Just because you

> don't vax your child doesn't make you immune to a call to CPS. I

> think it's important to remember that.

>

> Anita

[Guest guest]

I am always one that tells ther truth in the ER even though I am scared

to do so. It just sorta comes out. I guess my fear is if they think you

are up to date it seems it might take them longer to figure out the

problem if it were to be a vax preventable disease. Has anyone had that

experience? I mean in the back of their head they would be

thinking " it's not likely....because this child is vaxed. "

My other concern is this. If you go into the ER like I have with cuts

that need stitches, and you say you are up to date, won't they still

want to do a tetanus??? Even though you say you are up to date, don't

they usually say the child will need tetanus again? If thats the case,

how do you get around that if you are " supposed to be ok " with

vaccines?

Sandy

[Guest guest]

In that case, I would lie and say that they recently had a tetanus shot and that

I am not comfortable with him getting another.

I have heard too many ER horror stories, including the one that started this

thread, to feel comfortable trusting them to respect my decision.

Go ahead and say that I am taking an easy way out or lying, or whatever, but I

do what I have to do to protect my children and it really sucks when your child

can't breathe due to an asthma attack and you have to worry about doctors

grilling you about vaccines and your choices or not taking you seriously because

they think that you are one of " those " crazy people who won't vaccinate.

Oh, and my doctor said that they usually don't rule out supposed " vaccine

preventable " diseases, but they know that vaccines are not 100% effective.

---- Sandy Redding <srr1933@...> wrote:

> I am always one that tells ther truth in the ER even though I am scared

> to do so. It just sorta comes out. I guess my fear is if they think you

> are up to date it seems it might take them longer to figure out the

> problem if it were to be a vax preventable disease. Has anyone had that

> experience? I mean in the back of their head they would be

> thinking " it's not likely....because this child is vaxed. "

>

> My other concern is this. If you go into the ER like I have with cuts

> that need stitches, and you say you are up to date, won't they still

> want to do a tetanus??? Even though you say you are up to date, don't

> they usually say the child will need tetanus again? If thats the case,

> how do you get around that if you are " supposed to be ok " with

> vaccines?

>

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

>I am always one that tells ther truth in the ER even though I am scared

> to do so. It just sorta comes out. I guess my fear is if they think you

> are up to date it seems it might take them longer to figure out the

> problem if it were to be a vax preventable disease. Has anyone had that

> experience? I mean in the back of their head they would be

> thinking " it's not likely....because this child is vaxed. "

Yes, I have on occasion told the truth as well. When I my 10 month old had

croup (although at the time it was just breathing difficulties) so I didn't

want them to rule out pertussis. But really, I probably would never tell

the truth again. It just isn't worth the particular hassle if you get a

person on a power kick.

YOu just don't want to be put into a situation where you can't leave. If

you think they have one of those vaccine " preventable " diseases then tell

them. Learn about the symptoms, tell them why, vaccines fail, you could

still have them if you were vaccinated, they don't have to know that. Then

if they still won't consider it, you are getting crappy treatment, leave and

go somewhere else.

L.

[Guest guest]

>

> My other concern is this. If you go into the ER like I have with cuts

> that need stitches, and you say you are up to date, won't they still

> want to do a tetanus??? Even though you say you are up to date, don't

> they usually say the child will need tetanus again? If thats the case,

> how do you get around that if you are " supposed to be ok " with

> vaccines?

>

You can always say you called there pediatrician before coming and they said

that they didn't need another shot.

L.

[Guest guest]

At 09:16 PM 5/22/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>I am always one that tells ther truth in the ER even though I am scared

>to do so. It just sorta comes out. I guess my fear is if they think you

>are up to date it seems it might take them longer to figure out the

>problem if it were to be a vax preventable disease. Has anyone had that

>experience? I mean in the back of their head they would be

>thinking " it's not likely....because this child is vaxed. "

>

>My other concern is this. If you go into the ER like I have with cuts

>that need stitches, and you say you are up to date, won't they still

>want to do a tetanus??? Even though you say you are up to date, don't

>they usually say the child will need tetanus again? If thats the case,

>how do you get around that if you are " supposed to be ok " with

>vaccines?

>

>Sandy

No they should not give a tetanus just because of injury.

Best is to say you don't vax if you are willing to deal with the possible

consequences of that statement or say they are up to date and no thanks,

you will check with your own doctor

Sheri

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

OR

yes she was given tetanus while on holiday in some country, ie Spain (if you're

in Europe or Mexico if you are in USA). Noone is going to check up on that. And

since you didn't have your vax card on hand, it was never recorded.

Re: Re: ER visit - tetanus vac forced on our 18

month-old

At 09:16 PM 5/22/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>I am always one that tells ther truth in the ER even though I am scared

>to do so. It just sorta comes out. I guess my fear is if they think you

>are up to date it seems it might take them longer to figure out the

>problem if it were to be a vax preventable disease. Has anyone had that

>experience? I mean in the back of their head they would be

>thinking " it's not likely....because this child is vaxed. "

>

>My other concern is this. If you go into the ER like I have with cuts

>that need stitches, and you say you are up to date, won't they still

>want to do a tetanus??? Even though you say you are up to date, don't

>they usually say the child will need tetanus again? If thats the case,

>how do you get around that if you are " supposed to be ok " with

>vaccines?

>

>Sandy

No they should not give a tetanus just because of injury.

Best is to say you don't vax if you are willing to deal with the possible

consequences of that statement or say they are up to date and no thanks,

you will check with your own doctor

Sheri

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

[Guest guest]

This is interesting information Liora. Were you born and raised in

China? The propaganda machine in the US tells us that China is a very

bad place. Are we getting the truth? What's going on over there? The

following story just came out about the one child thing - what do you

think of the article?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/22/AR2007052201496.\

html?hpid=moreheadlines

Other comments:

The whole ER discussion really perturbs me. I have alot of thoughts

and ideas but can't get them all into words right now. As you all

would agree, this is very serious and something needs to be done.

Basically, upon admission parents must be clear in writing that they

have and maintain all authority over their child, and may at any time

leave the hospital without harassment to seek proper care elsewhere.

Plus other directives of course - no tetanus or rabies shots, no

vaccines whatsoever, no tb or hiv tests, etc.

On :

Sorry, but I believe he's controlled opposition. , who

criticizes , and exposes so much more truth, is also controlled

opposition, in my opinion. Don't care to argue it, just merely giving

my thoughts.

Dan

>

> I do not lie about my childrens' vaccination status.

>

> But then again I live in China, where, paradoxically we have many more

> freedoms than in the U.S.

>

> We unschool without interference or monitoring of any sort. We do not

> vaccinate, and nobody cares. We Attachment Parent and Co-sleep.

> Breastfeed for ages. Are vegetarian.

>

> In the States, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to " call the

> authorities " , I.E. CPS because we just aren't NORMAL and are

> NEGATIVELY AFFECTING our kids, in their opinion.

>

> I've said it before, I'll say it again, get out while you still can,

> folks. America is headed down a dark path. You can still love the

> U.S., still care, still be involved, and still sign petitions, argue

> online, etc. from the other side of the world, while you have the

> freedom to make your family exactly as you choose.

>

[Guest guest]

hi, Dan

No, we moved to Shanghai then Beijing, and have lived abroad for

about 4 years now. I birthed both my kids here, the first in a

hospital and the second in a (planned) unassisted home water birth--it

was beautiful, calm, easy.

China is, well, just totally different. Read Mr. China by Tim

Clissold, it's great.

China is getting a bad rap and there ARE big concerns here; air

quality, water quality, chemical usage, reliably following basic

procedures...China has become industrialized overnight and have no

clue about protecting themselves, for the most part.

The article, not surprising. The Chinese are waking up.

Awareness is growing, Organic food suppliers are growing, and among

the expat crowd, at least, demand is high (I started a group,

naturally, for the consumers to share resources).

sorry it took me so long but I did not see your question till now. by

the way, I agree about , my family loves (they

live in Austin). I've seen him online and I just can't believe he's

still alive after all the powerful organizations he exposes.

Controlled? I don't know...

best,Liora

> >

> > I do not lie about my childrens' vaccination status.

> >

> > But then again I live in China, where, paradoxically we have many more

> > freedoms than in the U.S.

> >

> > We unschool without interference or monitoring of any sort. We do not

> > vaccinate, and nobody cares. We Attachment Parent and Co-sleep.

> > Breastfeed for ages. Are vegetarian.

> >

> > In the States, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to " call the

> > authorities " , I.E. CPS because we just aren't NORMAL and are

> > NEGATIVELY AFFECTING our kids, in their opinion.

> >

> > I've said it before, I'll say it again, get out while you still can,

> > folks. America is headed down a dark path. You can still love the

> > U.S., still care, still be involved, and still sign petitions, argue

> > online, etc. from the other side of the world, while you have the

> > freedom to make your family exactly as you choose.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by controlled opposition?

lioracc <lioracc@...> wrote: hi, Dan

No, we moved to Shanghai then Beijing, and have lived abroad for

about 4 years now. I birthed both my kids here, the first in a

hospital and the second in a (planned) unassisted home water birth--it

was beautiful, calm, easy.

China is, well, just totally different. Read Mr. China by Tim

Clissold, it's great.

China is getting a bad rap and there ARE big concerns here; air

quality, water quality, chemical usage, reliably following basic

procedures...China has become industrialized overnight and have no

clue about protecting themselves, for the most part.

The article, not surprising. The Chinese are waking up.

Awareness is growing, Organic food suppliers are growing, and among

the expat crowd, at least, demand is high (I started a group,

naturally, for the consumers to share resources).

sorry it took me so long but I did not see your question till now. by

the way, I agree about , my family loves (they

live in Austin). I've seen him online and I just can't believe he's

still alive after all the powerful organizations he exposes.

Controlled? I don't know...

best,Liora

> >

> > I do not lie about my childrens' vaccination status.

> >

> > But then again I live in China, where, paradoxically we have many more

> > freedoms than in the U.S.

> >

> > We unschool without interference or monitoring of any sort. We do not

> > vaccinate, and nobody cares. We Attachment Parent and Co-sleep.

> > Breastfeed for ages. Are vegetarian.

> >

> > In the States, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to " call the

> > authorities " , I.E. CPS because we just aren't NORMAL and are

> > NEGATIVELY AFFECTING our kids, in their opinion.

> >

> > I've said it before, I'll say it again, get out while you still can,

> > folks. America is headed down a dark path. You can still love the

> > U.S., still care, still be involved, and still sign petitions, argue

> > online, etc. from the other side of the world, while you have the

> > freedom to make your family exactly as you choose.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> What do you mean by controlled opposition?

" In the effort to establish a singular global government, the powers

that be recognized that opposition to their plan would be evident and

unavoidable. These opposition forces must certainly be neutralized and

their voices squelched, if the socialists' plans to conquer the world

were to be rendered successful.

" How can one keep leaders from arising out of the teaming masses to

speak out against the plan in favor of freedom? The diabolical

would-be dictators understood the only way to accomplish this, was to

create the perception that someone was already fighting the battle of

liberty for them. Someone who both supported the plan, yet spoke out

against it. Someone who would gain the trust of the masses, then

employ diversionary tactics, leading them into tyranny.

" These are the CONTROLLED OPPOSITION. They come in many different

forms, and organizations, and purport to stand for various causes.

Some fill pulpits, others occupy public offices. Several are

broadcasters. All are deceivers. All are players of a manipulation

process called the Hegelian Dialectic.

" They hammer at issues, are vocal about matters that appeal to

Christians and conservatives, and even do some good deeds. But their

efforts always fail to mobilize their supporters to take the right

action, leading the majority who never see through their scheme to

ask, " Who silenced the outcry? "

http://www.sweetliberty.org/wolves.htm

I'm not familiar with this website, but the above answers the question

very plainly. Be watchful of those in the anti-vaccine camp as well.

Dan

[Guest guest]

yes, people infiltrate.

See the same thing with activists at G8 meetings for example. Many

peaceful groups. But other infiltrate and conduct acts of violence to give

others a bad name.

Or infiltrate to cause dissension in the group so they fail in their task.

Sheri

At 05:44 PM 6/17/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>

>>

>> What do you mean by controlled opposition?

>

> " In the effort to establish a singular global government, the powers

>that be recognized that opposition to their plan would be evident and

>unavoidable. These opposition forces must certainly be neutralized and

>their voices squelched, if the socialists' plans to conquer the world

>were to be rendered successful.

>

> " How can one keep leaders from arising out of the teaming masses to

>speak out against the plan in favor of freedom? The diabolical

>would-be dictators understood the only way to accomplish this, was to

>create the perception that someone was already fighting the battle of

>liberty for them. Someone who both supported the plan, yet spoke out

>against it. Someone who would gain the trust of the masses, then

>employ diversionary tactics, leading them into tyranny.

>

> " These are the CONTROLLED OPPOSITION. They come in many different

>forms, and organizations, and purport to stand for various causes.

>Some fill pulpits, others occupy public offices. Several are

>broadcasters. All are deceivers. All are players of a manipulation

>process called the Hegelian Dialectic.

>

> " They hammer at issues, are vocal about matters that appeal to

>Christians and conservatives, and even do some good deeds. But their

>efforts always fail to mobilize their supporters to take the right

>action, leading the majority who never see through their scheme to

>ask, " Who silenced the outcry? "

>

>http://www.sweetliberty.org/wolves.htm

>

>I'm not familiar with this website, but the above answers the question

>very plainly. Be watchful of those in the anti-vaccine camp as well.

>

>Dan

>

>>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

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[Guest guest]

I hope you're not saying all these problems faced by these groups are

due to infiltrators (though no doubt opponents do infiltrate and do

do some of the things you've mentioned).

Some people who do violence believe in something as fervently as the

peaceful people (like ecoradicals or those who followed Malcom X, as

opposed to Luther King, Jr.). And people who share a common

view of the world aren't necessarily going to agree on every part of

it, hence natural dissension that can arise (look at how many

different types of church denominations there are, for example).

On Jun 17, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> yes, people infiltrate.

> See the same thing with activists at G8 meetings for example. Many

> peaceful groups. But other infiltrate and conduct acts of violence

> to give

> others a bad name.

> Or infiltrate to cause dissension in the group so they fail in

> their task.

> Sheri

>