RE: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Then what would the difference be between being trained and being taught?

> Cheryl in VA

None that I can think of, Cheryl.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Hi Granny

>

> Most of the labels I'm talking about are dealing with school situations,

so

> far so good, most agree that the trainable label needs to go. Why can't

> labels be as simple as describing what the area of need is? in Sara's case

MR

> would be appropriate, not trainable. I see no reasons that other labels

are

> needed, obviously they help administrators exclude our kids....and this is

> being done.

>

> Once you said you call a spade a spade, this is all we want to

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 9

Your point is well made, Kathy. If schools are using labels in this manner,

they should be ashamed of themselves.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

I remember when the term Mongoloid was terribly offensive, so when it was

changed the Down's Syndrome and later to Down, at first people said, oh,

that's the same as mongoloid. Then it became offensive too, to some people

and to some extent. That's the trouble with labels of any kind. Of course,

it's impossible to do away with them completely. I never label as

anything but my son, if people recognize him as anything else that is their

problem. Once we were in a crowded store and a woman came out of side aisle

and immediately asked something about where he went to school. Then

she said to me, " I've got one around here someplace. " I kept walking but she

found her son with DS and b rought him over to meet us. We were courteous to

him, but still kept walking. Afterwards I thought of several things I should

have said, I'm not real quick on the uptake, and I was so taken aback. I

wished I had stopped long enough to wring her neck at the very least. When a

kid's own mother labels him that is BAD. I have a friend who has a son with

DS and adopted another and she used to call them her little mongoloids. That

really got to me. Used as a noun it's worse than as an adjective. Oh, well,

I hate that kind of thing.

Jessie, mother of my son and my daughter and my grandson Adam.

[Guest guest]

Oh, you guys annoy me!

tv, <train>--to cause (a person or animal) to respond to discipline and

instruction, to make (a person or animal) efficient in some activity by

instruction and repeated practice; iv, to make one's intelligence and memory

more efficient by application

negative connotations--controlled by other, " animal " association, rote work,

instruction seems limited to skills rather than knowledge (except in iv

application)

positive connotations--may be self administered, practice makes perfect,

skill focus

tv, <teach> --to give instruction to, to train; to give to another knowledge

or skill which one has oneself; to give instruction in for a living

These are from an old dictionary--think it's an oxford, the cover is gone.

Also has <teachable>, but not <trainable>.

Judi

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Then what would the difference be between being trained and being taught?

> Cheryl in VA

None that I can think of, Cheryl.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

teach·a·ble (tch-bl)

adj.

1.That can be taught: teachable skills.

2.Able and willing to learn: teachable youngsters.

train

v. tr.

1.To coach in or accustom to a mode of behavior or performance.

2.To make proficient with specialized instruction and practice. See

Synonyms at teach.

Source: http://www.dictionary.com

Like I said, no difference.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

>

>

> > Then what would the difference be between being trained and being

taught?

> > Cheryl in VA

>

> None that I can think of, Cheryl.

>

> granny

> ---

> God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

> of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

> http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/00 6:59:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

<< I, too, have encountered this attitude. Took me too

long to realize how unimportant are the opinions of these people. >>

But it is important when they are the ones involved with your child day after

day and making educational decisions for your child.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/00 8:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

<< > Then what would the difference be between being trained and being taught?

> Cheryl in VA

None that I can think of, Cheryl. >>

Good, then there is no need for anyone to be labeled trainable and everyone

can be considered teachable!

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/00 10:50:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,

lowenthalrj@... writes:

<< Oh, you guys annoy me! >>

Well, somebody has to !!! ;-) Thanks for the definitions.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

I can remember when " Mongoloid " was NOT considered offensive. And why

Americans have a problem with Down's Syndrome when the rest of the world

doesn't is beyond me. I've heard all the arguments, but none make any sense

to me.

granny

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/9/00 7:58:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

<< > That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

Like fine OLD wine!!!!!!!! >>

WOMEN DON " T GET OLD....WE GET EXPERIENCED!

[Guest guest]

I can remember when " Mongoloid " was NOT considered offensive. And why

Americans have a problem with Down's Syndrome when the rest of the world

doesn't is beyond me. I've heard all the arguments, but none make any sense

to me.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> I remember when the term Mongoloid was terribly offensive, so when it

was

> changed the Down's Syndrome and later to Down, at first people said, oh,

> that's the same as mongoloid

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> But it is important when they are the ones involved with your child day

after

> day and making educational decisions for your child.

> Cheryl in VA

Ah, but they did not make educational decisions for my child, Cheryl. I did.

They merely supplemented what I did.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> In a message dated 12/8/00 8:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> bspyle@... writes:

>

> << > Then what would the difference be between being trained and being

taught?

> > Cheryl in VA

>

> None that I can think of, Cheryl. >>

>

> Good, then there is no need for anyone to be labeled trainable and

everyone

> can be considered teachable!

> Cheryl in VA

Since the words are synomymous, it doesn't matter what label they use.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

>

[Guest guest]

RE: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

Like fine OLD wine!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

At 11:36 AM 12/9/2000 -0500, shmookie@... wrote:

>In a message dated 12/9/00 7:58:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>bspyle@... writes:

>

><< > That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>Like fine OLD wine!!!!!!!! >>

>

>WOMEN DON " T GET OLD....WE GET EXPERIENCED!

or very grumpy.

Len

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/9/00 7:21:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

<< Ah, but they did not make educational decisions for my child, Cheryl. I

did.

They merely supplemented what I did. >>

Really you should realize how lucky you were because for most of us that is

not what happens. If only our educational experiences were as wonderful as

yours were, how different our lives would be! It's amazing that you had such

agreeable teachers and administrators who followed your directions and only

supplemented what you did at home.

But for many of us, teachers and administrators do what they think is best,

making their own decisions and it is only when we catch them that we discover

what is happening in school. In today's school systems, many educational

professionals try to make decisions for our children instead. I am sure you

get a sense of that from what you read from the parents here. Perhaps it is

only the parents that want more than life skills taught that are having the

most problems.

CHeryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/9/00 11:43:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,

lleshin@... writes:

<< >Like fine OLD wine!!!!!!!! >>

>

>WOMEN DON " T GET OLD....WE GET EXPERIENCED!

or very grumpy. >>

Enough to pop their corks?

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

I disagree Granny. There is something wrong with being " trainable " when it

is used as an excuse to limit our kids and not have to teach them

academics. That is the purpose of the " trainable " label. It means the

child can't be educated, so they must be trained like a circus animal. It

is sad, but true.

Elaine

RE: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

>

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Draquelle@... [mailto:Draquelle@...]

> >

> > <<the training label is disgusting - you train dogs and circus animals

not

> > children.If your daughter can be trained , it means she has the

> capabililty

> > to learn. Are they trying to contradict themselves? >>

> >

> > Your comments remind me of an IEP a couple of years ago where we

requested

> > that the teachers get some inclusion " training. " From the response of

the

> > educators, you'd have thought we'd ask them to pose for porno pictures.

> > Seems they found the idea of being " trained " offensive, the terminology

> > offensive, and --of course-- us offensive. Given that our system still

> uses

> > the TRM label, this was interesting and perhaps part of the explanation

> for

> > their response. (An interesting point to ponder in itself.) One of the

> > comments was that they were all experienced " professionals' and that

using

> > " training " in conjunction with these " professionals " was " demeaning. "

> >

> > Hmm.

> >

> > My husband found their response rather bewildering--he is always getting

> and

> > giving " training " of one sort or another, particularly in computer

areas,

> > and to him it translates as a positive thing to put on a resume and to

> > enhance career progress. Wonder why it has such a negative connotation

> for

> > educators and why, if they don't want the term used for them, they feel

so

> > comfortable about using it with certain students as a defining label.

> >

> > Judi

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I don't know about the rest of you but I feel that I am CONSTANTLY " training "

the school staff on how to work with my son, what inclusion is, and WHY he

has that right! I have definitely found that some are more " trainable " that

others.

I don't know if they would consider Maverick trainable or not, (they know

better than to label him in my presence)...but I certainly consider him a

TRAINER! He has trained many more than I have!!

[Guest guest]

I have recently been having some serious conversations with my older

children about offensive terminology. We have come to the conclusion,

together, that there is really no such thing as an offensive word. It is

the attitude behind the words that relays the message. I homeschool all my

children. So, for now, I don't have to concern myself with the labels given

through testing or evaluation. Therefore, I can't really speak about that

issue. My reference is really to the common comments that are frequently

made in passing. Just one more point of view.

God Bless Ya'll!!! Bengie

>From: " Casten " <tcasten@...>

> " " <egroups>

>Subject: RE: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

>Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 05:05:19 -0500

>

>That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

>

>

>I can remember when " Mongoloid " was NOT considered offensive. And why

>Americans have a problem with Down's Syndrome when the rest of the world

>doesn't is beyond me. I've heard all the arguments, but none make any sense

>to me.

>

>granny

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

_____

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> ><< > That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> >Like fine OLD wine!!!!!!!! >>

> >

> >WOMEN DON " T GET OLD....WE GET EXPERIENCED!

>

> or very grumpy.

>

> Len

And for good reason! If the guys don't understand why, look in the mirror.

:^)

granny

---

" Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. "

- Eleanor Roosevelt -

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> In a message dated 12/9/00 7:58:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> bspyle@... writes:

>

> << > That would be because you are OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> Like fine OLD wine!!!!!!!! >>

>

> WOMEN DON " T GET OLD....WE GET EXPERIENCED!

Something young whippersnappers such as The would never understand.

:^)

granny

---

" Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. "

- Eleanor Roosevelt -

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/10/00 5:39:47 AM Central Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

> Great attitude, Bengie! The question one must often ask is " Who owns the

> problem? " If someone deliberately insults me how it effects me is MY

> problem. The fact that they are insulting is THEIR problem. Sticks and

> stones. If someone says something out of ignorance and without malice then

> there is no problem, as far as I'm concerned. I could make a big to-do

about

> it, but what for?

>

> granny

OK my vent lol

Oooh Granny, then you would have been so proud of me yesterday lololol I ran

into a Mom who I've only met in passing. Her child is new to Sara's school,

the child also has DS. She obviously knew all of my opinions on education

etc... because she took every opportunity to make negative comments on all of

my ideals. She compared Sara to her child and using Sara's functioning

abilities as her reasons. I was very patient with her and made a lot of

" oooh " comments. I knew right off that nothing I could say would make any

difference I have worked my tail off to get Sara where she is

today.....OK my family and school have to lol but It bugs the stew out of me

when folks ask ME what Ive done or what program Sara is using, to just throw

it back in my face. I had no choice but to quietly sneak away from

her....after she slammed parents who insist on using tax dollars to educate

our kids. I did speak up on that one lol and informed her I AM one of those

parents.

I guess I really am a minority here, as I'm running into more parents with

this line of thinking, the parents who have been very boisterous have the

cash flow to BUY everything...programs and all for their kids (and don't mind

telling me) I DON'T I guess Ill just stay a tax spending sponge

Kathy mom to Sara 9............who supports and respects the " I " in IEP's,

wish others would too

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> I disagree Granny. There is something wrong with being " trainable " when

it

> is used as an excuse to limit our kids and not have to teach them

> academics. That is the purpose of the " trainable " label. It means the

> child can't be educated, so they must be trained like a circus animal. It

> is sad, but true.

> Elaine

Well, they didn't do that with when she received the label, Elaine.

So, it's not the label, but the attitude of those applying it.

granny

---

" Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. "

- Eleanor Roosevelt -

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Really you should realize how lucky you were because for most of us that

is

> not what happens. If only our educational experiences were as wonderful as

> yours were, how different our lives would be! It's amazing that you had

such

> agreeable teachers and administrators who followed your directions and

only

> supplemented what you did at home.

>

> But for many of us, teachers and administrators do what they think is

best,

> making their own decisions and it is only when we catch them that we

discover

> what is happening in school. In today's school systems, many educational

> professionals try to make decisions for our children instead. I am sure

you

> get a sense of that from what you read from the parents here. Perhaps it

is

> only the parents that want more than life skills taught that are having

the

> most problems.

>

> CHeryl in VA

It wasn't always that simple for me, Cheryl. In infant stim, I asked what

they suggested for reading readiness and was told " these children will not

learn to read. " So, I made up my own program.

In first grade, both 's teacher and I had a hard time convincing the

school board to provide readers for our children. The teacher photocopied

readers, taught the children to read, showed the results to the school

board, then we got our readers!

In junior high school, had a teacher that allowed his aid, a very

abusive woman, run the class. Her idea of running the class was for the

students to take naps. She put bruises on one student and the parents of

that child had a fit. I called a special AARD meeting and raised hell. It

helped some. I saw to it that was " double promoted " and went on to

high school after one year in junior high.

Senior high was not without its problems, but it was the school in general,

not the life skills class. was much safer in life skills than if she

had been included. Not even NDA students were safe.

I made friends with all 's teachers. Had them over for dinner.

Encouraged them in their work. Sympathized with their problems. All except

that bozo in junior high. Two of 's teachers remain friends to this

day. 's teachers and I were rarely at odds because we thought of

ourselves as a team with me in charge. I was often asked " What do you think

is best for ? " I asked that question of her teachers a lot as well.

granny

---

" Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. "

- Eleanor Roosevelt -

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle