RE: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

[Guest guest]

That is bull tickey!! Can't you say that you do not agree with the

psychological and therefore are requesting a new one? Did they use the

Weschler on her or a non verbal test? She was not feeling up to par, either

and that would skew the testing. What about her stubborness, how those test

are set up in a way that our children resist anyway? Oh Sue, I am so sorry

{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}. And that label crap!! Did you tell them that animals

are trainable and people are educatable? That is bulltickey about the aide,

too.

If you want us to send letters in support of Caiti..just let us know. I know

how badly you are hurting right now. I wish I could whip over to that

Hardees and buy you a cup of coffee..oh, hell, we'd skip the coffee and find

a bar!

Sue, you are a great advocate for your daughter. Wait a few days and collect

your thoughts..then do what you have to do. We will be here for you.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/1/00 9:06:55 PM Central Standard Time,

SHerscher@... writes:

<< I don't write often, but I do read. Yesterday was Caiti's IEP and the

result

of her triannual that I didn't want done in the first place. The IEP was

fine. I can agree to all of that. But when a blasted psych comes in and

tests my kid and she's had allergies for a month now...and to boot he walks

in and doesn't know her from Adam and spends two hours with her and then

writes a report tha >>

Hi SUe,

Did you really approve this IQ test? In other words did you sign the paper

stating that the test could be given. Did the paper state what type of IQ

test was being given. has had both the one that relies on visual (test

for the deaf/hoh) and the test that relies on verbal, both done at the

clinic. The difference was over 20 points. cant' remember exactly. Alot

depends on the type of iq test given.

I did allow the school to do the testing once (test for the hearing

impaired) when she was 6. last time (2 yrs ago? already?) they had to rely

on PLOP. Tho I thought the whole thing was a farce since the school phsyc

was relieing on parent/staff interviews and called here the day before the

meeting. :-o

But I would say that if you didn't approve the testing/evaluation method used

you might be able to do something about it, maybe have that number removed

from her file. Did they do an IQ test 3 yrs ago? But if you did sign a

paper approving the method they are within the law. :-(

Take care.

Joy...................who thinks triennial testing is a farce. :-) hehe

[Guest guest]

In Virginia and I suspect in other states also, they cannot do the testing

(pysch and IQ style) without parental consent. You should check your state

regs, if the same as ours, you will never have to allow that again.

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

You got a prejudiced psych (rhymes with B****) Did they do this testing

without your specific permission? I didn't think they could do that, and I

would never agree to it. I have seen more stupidity in that testing than

anything else. When was having vocational evaluation they told me he

reads at a second grade level. On the way home in the car that same day he

read me Lincoln's Gettysburg address. I'll bet old Abe didn't know he wrote

at second grade level. I told them he could read the newspaper and adult

books but they have their minds made up. You are really going to have to

watch them. Go ahead and vent! Jessie

[Guest guest]

Sue, you may not win on keeping the aide but if you completely disagree with

the psych's eval you can always take Caiti to your own psych and have her

reevaled. If the new psych disagrees with the school, ask that the school

to pay for your private eval and that you want the label changed. If they

disagree, take them to due process. It clearly appears that Caiti is

achieving what was set out by the change in law that any child with a

disability first be given the least restrictive environment. I would watch

out that they are trying to make a case for changing placement. It's much

easier to babysit in the name of lifeskills/basic skills then it is to

actually teach our children. Just my 2c... Kim.

Just totally venting....so forgive me....

Hi Guys,

I don't write often, but I do read. Yesterday was Caiti's IEP and the

result

of her triannual that I didn't want done in the first place. The IEP was

fine. I can agree to all of that. But when a blasted psych comes in and

tests my kid and she's had allergies for a month now...and to boot he walks

in and doesn't know her from Adam and spends two hours with her and then

writes a report that her IQ is 46 and she is trainable and should be in a

special school or at least a self contained class room...

AARRGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I took my parent advocate in with me. She kept me sane. I did mouth off.

I

told them what I thought of the trainable label. I told them that I never

wanted to have the testing done in the first place. I told them alot of

things. I got voted down. The parent advocate and I both disagreed with the

label, but every other person signed on the opposite side. It irks me guys.

Caiti passed her state tests. She got 4 b's a c and an A on her report

card.

Yes she is below her grade level. But so what? She does the work given

her,

she progresses in her iep all the time. She's not learning? Do these

teachers realize that in my estimation, that by agreeing to the trainable

level that they are saying that they can't teach her?

And to top it off, they even mentioned something about switching her aide

because she shouldn't be relying on just one person. I think I'm gonna be

sick. One thing I really want to know. Can I stop them from changing her

aide if they try it? I do not want any other aide but this lady. Caiti

went

through 5 or 6 in 18 months before I finally got them to hire this lady.

Thanks for letting me vent.....

Sue, mom to Caiti, 10 who taught Tim how to count

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/2/00 3:25:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Bonoratoe001@... writes:

<< they are not allowed to

outvote me. >>

You all know that " voting " is NOT supposed to be taking place, right!?!?!?

And does the LEA have to pay if the IEE turns up to be the same .... I don't

think so ... which means make sure your doctors know you are fighting the

school system, always, always prepare as if you are going to a due process,

stack your ducks in a row IN CASE due process is where you end up. Make your

IEE people write very concise, thorough documentation that not only disputes

but disproves the LEAs bogus, simplified version!!

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/1/00 10:06:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

SHerscher@... writes:

<< nd to top it off, they even mentioned something about switching her aide

because she shouldn't be relying on just one person >>

I don't know about this, but you can have that report removed from her

permanent file and you can refuse to allow any IQ testing to be done in the

future. They have to do the triennual, but they don't have to do it using

quantative testing (those are the tests that come out with numbers). You can

request that they do qualitative testing--which means observations done by

all team members (including parents).

nancy

[Guest guest]

You can legally ask for an independent evaluation at state expense. Write a

letter (send it certified) and tell them that you disagree with their eval.

and want a list of evaluators. You don't have to choose one of theirs. You

can talk an independent evaluator into giving the Leiter. It is really

obvious to me that the instrument they used was really bogus. If IQ and

achievement don't correlate (match), then I'd say the results are

questionable.

Also, you are (according to the law) allowed EQUAL participation as

part of the team. I have always advocated that this means that I am 50% of

the team and no matter how they " stack the deck, " they are not allowed to

outvote me. We must come to some compromise. I've never had to take them

to court to prove my interpretation:)) Just my two cents. I advocated for

four years and rarely lost.

Elaine

Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Hi Guys,

>

> I don't write often, but I do read. Yesterday was Caiti's IEP and the

result

> of her triannual that I didn't want done in the first place. The IEP was

> fine. I can agree to all of that. But when a blasted psych comes in and

> tests my kid and she's had allergies for a month now...and to boot he

walks

> in and doesn't know her from Adam and spends two hours with her and then

> writes a report that her IQ is 46 and she is trainable and should be in a

> special school or at least a self contained class room...

> AARRGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> I took my parent advocate in with me. She kept me sane. I did mouth off.

I

> told them what I thought of the trainable label. I told them that I never

> wanted to have the testing done in the first place. I told them alot of

> things. I got voted down. The parent advocate and I both disagreed with

the

> label, but every other person signed on the opposite side. It irks me

guys.

> Caiti passed her state tests. She got 4 b's a c and an A on her report

card.

> Yes she is below her grade level. But so what? She does the work given

her,

> she progresses in her iep all the time. She's not learning? Do these

> teachers realize that in my estimation, that by agreeing to the trainable

> level that they are saying that they can't teach her?

> And to top it off, they even mentioned something about switching her aide

> because she shouldn't be relying on just one person. I think I'm gonna be

> sick. One thing I really want to know. Can I stop them from changing her

> aide if they try it? I do not want any other aide but this lady. Caiti

went

> through 5 or 6 in 18 months before I finally got them to hire this lady.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.....

>

> Sue, mom to Caiti, 10 who taught Tim how to count

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

IMHO Wechsler (inventor of the IQ test from Hades) should be put in a

trainable class and forced to stay there.

Elaine

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> That is bull tickey!! Can't you say that you do not agree with the

> psychological and therefore are requesting a new one? Did they use the

> Weschler on her or a non verbal test? She was not feeling up to par,

either

> and that would skew the testing. What about her stubborness, how those

test

> are set up in a way that our children resist anyway? Oh Sue, I am so

sorry

> {{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}. And that label crap!! Did you tell them that

animals

> are trainable and people are educatable? That is bulltickey about the

aide,

> too.

>

> If you want us to send letters in support of Caiti..just let us know. I

know

> how badly you are hurting right now. I wish I could whip over to that

> Hardees and buy you a cup of coffee..oh, hell, we'd skip the coffee and

find

> a bar!

>

> Sue, you are a great advocate for your daughter. Wait a few days and

collect

> your thoughts..then do what you have to do. We will be here for you.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/2/2000 3:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Bonoratoe001@... writes:

<< IMHO Wechsler (inventor of the IQ test from Hades) should be put in

a

trainable class and forced to stay there.

Elaine >>

Some of you already know this...but I was working on my masters in psychology

right after was born. I had to take the protocol home and test some

kids for practice. Right then I stopped with my goal of having a MA in

psychology. I did finish the course, but after that experience, I realized

how skewed those tests can be for our children..and I mean all our children,

not just the ones with DS. I am very happy that I made the right decision

and am not in the labeling business.

One of my old Parent Panther friends from AOL was facing her sons

evaluations. She called the company who makes and sells the protocol and

ordered one for herself. It was a few hundred dollars, but a good investment

for her childs education. She did say when she ordered that she was a

licensed pyschologist and couldn't find her number at that moment. SHe

promised she would call them back and give it to them. They sent her the

tools and she never did call them back...LOL!!!! She practiced and practiced

with her child. I have an old version around here somewhere...I have not

practiced with because I will not allow the test

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/1/00 9:22:10 PM Central Standard Time,

kldoll@... writes:

> Sue, you may not win on keeping the aide but if you completely disagree with

> the psych's eval you can always take Caiti to your own psych and have her

> reevaled. If the new psych disagrees with the school, ask that the school

> to pay for your private eval and that you want the label changed. If they

> disagree, take them to due process. It clearly appears that Caiti is

> achieving what was set out by the change in law that any child with a

> disability first be given the least restrictive environment. I would watch

> out that they are trying to make a case for changing placement. It's much

> easier to babysit in the name of lifeskills/basic skills then it is to

> actually teach our children. Just my 2c... Kim.

HI Sue

Boy I was just thinking about you and Caite the other day sooo good to

hear from you, even though it's disturbing news

Now Kim is right on target, get another eval and get them to pay for it too.

Obviously labels are important in your area so make sure she has the right

one. I know somewhere in the IDEA it talks about independent

evaluations...probably in the procedural safeguards. It breaks my heart to

see areas of the country limiting our kids.....I have the opposite problem

here Heehee they pile way to much on Sara, basically because of her social

skills but I'm working on educating them on the " real " Sara lolol

keep us posted and fill us in on our Caite, how's life been for her

Kathy mom to Sara 9.....ooh so weird to sign the 9 lol

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Here is my 2 cents worth on the subject of IQ testing....I waiver the testing

because I don't believe the test will tell anyone what my daughter can/can't

do or what she needs. You need observations for that, not a test!

I recently moved to CA and the team was questioning why there was so little

formal testing in 's record...I let them know that I don't believe

all the effort put forth into testing helps them to understand and assess my

daughter. I still am not subjecting her to the testing and don't plan to in

the future.

And specifically I learned early on that testing DOES NOT entitled a child to

a " placement. " You have to go with your gut feeling about the environment

that is best for your child.

Hope that helps someone. Kathy

[Guest guest]

the training label is disgusting - you train dogs and circus animals not

children.If your daughter can be trained , it means she has the capabililty

to learn. Are they trying to contradict themselves? I have found that most

children who have DS are just as capable of leaning as any other child - they

just neeb longer - which is why she is in a lower grade.

hope you get what you want.

Allyson

[Guest guest]

don't know about the USA but here in England they give us IQ tests but never

the answers. I would like to see the answers to these tests. Just because

my logic is different to yours doesn't or shouldn't mean I'm wrong.

Obviously I'm not infallable, and could make the odd mistake, but I think

there should be space on the paper to give your logic for the answer and if

it tallies the person should get hte score. I'm not gripiing because I got a

low score - I didn't, but I still think it should have been a little higher.

Allyson

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: Draquelle@... [mailto:Draquelle@...]

<<the training label is disgusting - you train dogs and circus animals not

children.If your daughter can be trained , it means she has the capabililty

to learn. Are they trying to contradict themselves? >>

Your comments remind me of an IEP a couple of years ago where we requested

that the teachers get some inclusion " training. " From the response of the

educators, you'd have thought we'd ask them to pose for porno pictures.

Seems they found the idea of being " trained " offensive, the terminology

offensive, and --of course-- us offensive. Given that our system still uses

the TRM label, this was interesting and perhaps part of the explanation for

their response. (An interesting point to ponder in itself.) One of the

comments was that they were all experienced " professionals' and that using

" training " in conjunction with these " professionals " was " demeaning. "

Hmm.

My husband found their response rather bewildering--he is always getting and

giving " training " of one sort or another, particularly in computer areas,

and to him it translates as a positive thing to put on a resume and to

enhance career progress. Wonder why it has such a negative connotation for

educators and why, if they don't want the term used for them, they feel so

comfortable about using it with certain students as a defining label.

Judi

[Guest guest]

I think it was the way in which the term was used I found offensive more than

the actual words. I suppose you could call me an educator but I am actually

a dance teacher. I always refer to my days of learning my art as - when I

was training. So it actually made me think what it was I didn't like about

what was said. So, I have to say that I came to the conclusion that it was

the inference rather than the actual which I found offensive.

Allyson

[Guest guest]

Guess you're right granny. It's just the way they say it which I think

offends me. I'm not even particularly PC. I think it's just the fact also

that I see a child as a child whatever it's disability, and in this case, I

feel that the teachers or school didn't.

Allyson

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/00 6:01:39 AM Central Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

> C'mon gang, we're splitting hairs here. We train our children. How many

> times is potting training discussed on this list?

>

> This is just another example of PC language run amok. There is nothing

wrong

> with being " trainable. " I trained all my children to do all sorts of

things.

> Make their beds, table manners, kitchen chores, etc. was no

> exception. When the schools labeled her TMR 20 years ago, it didn't bother

> me (or any of the other parents with TMR children) one bit. This whole

thing

> sounds to me as if some people look for excuses to be offended. Lighten up!

>

> granny

HI Granny

I respectfully disagree, I feel poor language and poor labels need to be

changed ASAP (changing labels has been done for years). I will never accept

labels which offend me or my brother....so to speak

I won't be ugly to the ignorant but I will change what I can.... Gracefully

Kathy mom to Sara 9

[Guest guest]

C'mon gang, we're splitting hairs here. We train our children. How many

times is potting training discussed on this list?

This is just another example of PC language run amok. There is nothing wrong

with being " trainable. " I trained all my children to do all sorts of things.

Make their beds, table manners, kitchen chores, etc. was no

exception. When the schools labeled her TMR 20 years ago, it didn't bother

me (or any of the other parents with TMR children) one bit. This whole thing

sounds to me as if some people look for excuses to be offended. Lighten up!

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

RE: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Draquelle@... [mailto:Draquelle@...]

>

> <<the training label is disgusting - you train dogs and circus animals not

> children.If your daughter can be trained , it means she has the

capabililty

> to learn. Are they trying to contradict themselves? >>

>

> Your comments remind me of an IEP a couple of years ago where we requested

> that the teachers get some inclusion " training. " From the response of the

> educators, you'd have thought we'd ask them to pose for porno pictures.

> Seems they found the idea of being " trained " offensive, the terminology

> offensive, and --of course-- us offensive. Given that our system still

uses

> the TRM label, this was interesting and perhaps part of the explanation

for

> their response. (An interesting point to ponder in itself.) One of the

> comments was that they were all experienced " professionals' and that using

> " training " in conjunction with these " professionals " was " demeaning. "

>

> Hmm.

>

> My husband found their response rather bewildering--he is always getting

and

> giving " training " of one sort or another, particularly in computer areas,

> and to him it translates as a positive thing to put on a resume and to

> enhance career progress. Wonder why it has such a negative connotation

for

> educators and why, if they don't want the term used for them, they feel so

> comfortable about using it with certain students as a defining label.

>

> Judi

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Problem is, it isn't the word that is to blame for the negative

connotations--it's what some people mean when they use it. Maybe the reason

Jessie's teachers got so offended was because that was (in several cases,

still is) what they mean by trainable. And that traces back to attitude and

willingness to encourage--or at least allow--children with ds to be who they

are and achieve what they are able to achieve, not just what someone else

<thinks> or read in a book that they can do.

Cheer up, Granny, the corruption of the word's meaning seems to only be in

the schools--so far. Me, I like the word train--loved crashing my brother's

trains into each other too! ;o)

Judi

Fwd: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

In a message dated 12/7/00 4:48:42 PM Central Standard Time, JB66111 writes:

<< I don't think it's offensive as much as dangerous. Once your child falls

into this category, or did I don't think they use it any more, his chances

of

learning anything in most places was practically nil. And it was automatic

with DS. There were probably exceptions but I know here that designation

was

the end of any chance of a real education. Jessie >>

This was my answer to Granny. Jessie

[Guest guest]

Then what would the difference be between being trained and being taught?

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/00 6:04:52 AM Central Standard Time,

bspyle@... writes:

> And what will you do when someone finds your labels offensive, Kathy? Trust

> me. It will happen.

>

> granny

Hi Granny

Most of the labels I'm talking about are dealing with school situations, so

far so good, most agree that the trainable label needs to go. Why can't

labels be as simple as describing what the area of need is? in Sara's case MR

would be appropriate, not trainable. I see no reasons that other labels are

needed, obviously they help administrators exclude our kids....and this is

being done.

Once you said you call a spade a spade, this is all we want to

Kathy mom to Sara 9

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Guess you're right granny. It's just the way they say it which I think

> offends me. I'm not even particularly PC. I think it's just the fact

also

> that I see a child as a child whatever it's disability, and in this case,

I

> feel that the teachers or school didn't.

>

> Allyson

Good point, Allyson. I, too, have encountered this attitude. Took me too

long to realize how unimportant are the opinions of these people.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> HI Granny

>

> I respectfully disagree, I feel poor language and poor labels need to be

> changed ASAP (changing labels has been done for years). I will never

accept

> labels which offend me or my brother....so to speak

>

> I won't be ugly to the ignorant but I will change what I can....

Gracefully

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 9

And what will you do when someone finds your labels offensive, Kathy? Trust

me. It will happen.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

[Guest guest]

Re: Just totally venting....so forgive me....

> Granny,

> The only reason I'm raising a stink is because in this neck of woods,

> trainable means sitting around and twiddling your thumbs, teachers won't

try

> as hard, etc. I want Caiti to be able to do everything anyone else does

and

> given the chance. I want the teacher to TRY with her and push her. I

don't

> want teachers seeing TMR and thinking that this is a skate job.

>

> Sue

And right you are, Sue! The only way I ever found out what can and

cannot do is to let her try. I expected her teachers to help with this, but

not be the primary source of her education. I am now and always have been

the primary source of her education. What little labels others put on her

mean nothing to me.

granny

---

God loves everyone, but probably prefers " fruits

of the spirit " over " religious nuts " .

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle