Alcohol Intolerance

September 13, 2002

After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held

symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol.

Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy

coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I

do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it

might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas?

September 14, 2002

If the intolerance is primarily to wines, it might be the sulfites in the

wine. Apparently, there is an enzyme called sulfite oxidase that is

necessary to breakdown the sulfites in the wine, and it may be deficient in

some PWC's. Surprisingly some white wines have as many sulfites as red

wines, though it is generally held that white wines has fewer sulfites. I

definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through testing,

but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in homeopathic

remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite oxidase

deficiency.

Donna in NC

Re: alcohol intolerance

> After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held

symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol.

>

> Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy

coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I

do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it

might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas?

>

September 14, 2002

Jan,

When I made this comment, I was talking specifically about ethanol.

In red wine, there are some other substances that may cause problems

for some PWCs as well. One is sulfite, which is used as a

preservative in most wines. Its mentioned on the label, at least in

the U.S. Some PWCs are unable to process it. There's also tyramine,

which is implicated in causing headaches in some people. I suspect

that while you may well be intolerant of ethanol, ethanol is probably

not what gives you problems for such a long time as two and a half

months. Do you know whether you are sulfite-sensitive? If so,

sometimes taking molybdenum will help this, since the enzyme for

processing sulfite is molybdenum-dependent.

The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very

intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that

they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is

true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for

processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their

livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on

gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the

enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For

example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to

attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm,

before he became ill.

There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may

know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a

genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are

other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the

enzymes needed.

And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets

of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori

cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant,

I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles

or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle

cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least.

Rich

>

> Hi Rich,

>

> >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example

if

> >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the

> >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via

> >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very

pleasant

> >way to go, though.

>

> Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all

acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one

glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel

rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after

that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last

for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms

for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol,

but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jan.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

>

September 14, 2002

,

Please see my response to Jan.

Rich

> After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly

held

> symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol.

>

> Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some

yellowy

> coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the

count. I

> do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor

thought it

> might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas?

>

September 14, 2002

Hi All,

I had hepatitis when I was very young. I think that came

from eating

raw seafood, which I love. For years I couldn't drink at all. I remember

at a party I had some hard liquor and felt like I was going to faint or

die. Years

after I was able to have some alcohol. One beer would knock me out.

Currently,

with CFS, one sip calmed me down for an hour when I felt very anxious. I

don't drink. I might taste some drink once in a while, but that is just

maybe

a teaspoonful at most. I feel that the CFS has made it much harder for

me

to metabolize alcohol and many other substances. Sometimes I wish that

I didn't have problems with alcohol, because I feel that it might me

nice

to binge away my troubles. Really, i'd rather be healthy with no

troubles

to have to binge away. The greatest dream of my life is to feel " normal "

with a good functioning brain, with no medications or illness fogging it

up.

Mike

P.S. I have a friend that is healthy who told me that taking vitamin

B's helped

him with a hangover. I believe that alcohol depletes vitamin B's and

maybe others.

I once heard that liquor companys were considering putting B vitamins in

their

products to prevent brain / nerve damage to people that drink a lot.

Prime example

is the brain damage that alcoholics get, especially the ones that don't

eat.

September 14, 2002

Donna,

Yep. Sounds like you are intolerant to both ethanol and sulfite. Do

you have problems with foods that contain other forms of sulfur, such

as the brassica family (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, Brussels

sprouts) or garlic or onions or eggs or whey protein?

Rich

Rich.

> If the intolerance is primarily to wines, it might be the sulfites

in the

> wine. Apparently, there is an enzyme called sulfite oxidase that is

> necessary to breakdown the sulfites in the wine, and it may be

deficient in

> some PWC's. Surprisingly some white wines have as many sulfites as

red

> wines, though it is generally held that white wines has fewer

sulfites. I

> definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through

testing,

> but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in

homeopathic

> remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite

oxidase

> deficiency.

> Donna in NC

>

> Re: alcohol intolerance

>

> > After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly

held

> symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol.

> >

> > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or

some yellowy

> coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the

count. I

> do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor

thought it

> might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas?

> >

September 14, 2002

Mike,

You're right about the B vitamins. In particular niacin is helpful,

because niacin is the " N " in NAD+. If you help your liver to make

more NAD+, it will have more capacity to process ethanol while

carrying on its other business, which also requires NAD+.

I think it's also helpful to include vitamin C and NAC in anti-

hangover remedies, to take care of free radicals and to help dump

some of the other toxins that come from processing various alcoholic

beverages. Of course, I don't advocate drinking alcoholic beverages

to the point of getting a hangover, and it's especially not a good

idea for PWCs, as I mentioned before. I think it could be lethal for

PWCs.

I haven't heard of an alcohol-intolerant PWC drinking very much

alcohol. Most say that feel so bad after a sip that they stop. I

think this is due to combined hypoglycemia and lactic acidosis. Some

seem to get the hypoglycemia without the lactic acidosis. The latter

produces a " sick " feeling, as in nausea. The former tends to shut

down the brain or make the person very irritable, since glucose is

the main fuel for the brain. I don't understand why some don't get

the lactic acidosis yet. It may just be a matter of how much lactic

acid is being produced when they drink the alcohol. I think the

worst combination would be for a PWC to exercise and then drink an

alcoholic beverage, especially one without much sugar in it. That

would probably be a disaster.

Rich

> Hi All,

> I had hepatitis when I was very young. I think that came

> from eating

> raw seafood, which I love. For years I couldn't drink at all. I

remember

>

> at a party I had some hard liquor and felt like I was going to

faint or

> die. Years

> after I was able to have some alcohol. One beer would knock me out.

> Currently,

> with CFS, one sip calmed me down for an hour when I felt very

anxious. I

>

> don't drink. I might taste some drink once in a while, but that is

just

> maybe

> a teaspoonful at most. I feel that the CFS has made it much harder

for

> me

> to metabolize alcohol and many other substances. Sometimes I wish

that

> I didn't have problems with alcohol, because I feel that it might me

> nice

> to binge away my troubles. Really, i'd rather be healthy with no

> troubles

> to have to binge away. The greatest dream of my life is to

feel " normal "

>

> with a good functioning brain, with no medications or illness

fogging it

> up.

>

> Mike

>

> P.S. I have a friend that is healthy who told me that taking

vitamin

> B's helped

> him with a hangover. I believe that alcohol depletes vitamin B's and

> maybe others.

> I once heard that liquor companys were considering putting B

vitamins in

> their

> products to prevent brain / nerve damage to people that drink a lot.

> Prime example

> is the brain damage that alcoholics get, especially the ones that

don't

> eat.

September 14, 2002

What about molds as wine is fermented?

Thanks.

Nil

Re: alcohol intolerance

| Jan,

|

| When I made this comment, I was talking specifically about ethanol.

| In red wine, there are some other substances that may cause problems

| for some PWCs as well. One is sulfite, which is used as a

| preservative in most wines. Its mentioned on the label, at least in

| the U.S. Some PWCs are unable to process it. There's also tyramine,

| which is implicated in causing headaches in some people. I suspect

| that while you may well be intolerant of ethanol, ethanol is probably

| not what gives you problems for such a long time as two and a half

| months. Do you know whether you are sulfite-sensitive? If so,

| sometimes taking molybdenum will help this, since the enzyme for

| processing sulfite is molybdenum-dependent.

|

| The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very

| intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that

| they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is

| true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for

| processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their

| livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on

| gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the

| enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For

| example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to

| attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm,

| before he became ill.

|

| There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may

| know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a

| genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are

| other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the

| enzymes needed.

|

| And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets

| of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori

| cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant,

| I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles

| or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle

| cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least.

|

| Rich

|

| >

| > Hi Rich,

| >

| > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example

| if

| > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the

| > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via

| > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very

| pleasant

| > >way to go, though.

| >

| > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all

| acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one

| glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel

| rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after

| that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last

| for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms

| for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol,

| but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why?

| >

| > Thanks,

| >

| > Jan.

| >

| > ---------------------------------

| > Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

| >

September 14, 2002

Nil,

Yes, you're right. That's another possibility. Also yeasts, for

those who have an allergy to yeasts.

Rich

> | >

> | > Hi Rich,

> | >

> | > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for

example

> | if

> | > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the

> | > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via

> | > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very

> | pleasant

> | > >way to go, though.

> | >

> | > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid

all

> | acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink

one

> | glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just

feel

> | rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after

> | that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last

> | for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms

> | for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of

alcohol,

> | but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why?

> | >

> | > Thanks,

> | >

> | > Jan.

> | >

> | > ---------------------------------

> | > Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

> | >

September 14, 2002

Rich,

I do indeed have problems with all forms of sulfur, although that did not

use to be the case. I think the sulfite problem has always been around to a

mild degree, but when I tried to chelate my mercury a few years ago, first

with a DMPS injection for a challenge test, which produced a severe asthma

attack 30 hours later, then several months later I took DMSA, at the

" protocol of the day " , 500 mg once a week. By the 4th dose, I ended up

severely ill, not even remembering the months that followed, and since then

my CFIDS became quite severe, and gradually my sulfur intolerances have

grown. Used to take whey protein, eat all forms of brassica family in

moderation, eat eggs, take large amounts of ALA, MSM....no longer. It seems

to get worse instead of better. Has severely limited my diet, as I have

severe food allergies also, but interestingly, brassica family does not test

as an allergy. That I don't understand.

Thanks for any comments or thoughts you might have.

Donna in NC

Re: alcohol intolerance

> Donna,

>

> Yep. Sounds like you are intolerant to both ethanol and sulfite. Do you

have problems with foods that contain other forms of sulfur, such as the

brassica family (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, Brussels sprouts) or

garlic or onions or eggs or whey protein?

>

> Rich

>

I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through

testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in

homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite

oxidase deficiency.

> > Donna in NC

September 14, 2002

hi all -

> > > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or

> some yellowy

> > coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the

> count. I

> > do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor

> thought it

> > might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas?

I had an interesting experience with this a few years ago when my

acupuncturist had me taking 3 tblspns. of flax seed oil a day for 3

months. Prior to this even the slighest amount of alcohol would give me

a couple-day long hangover, afterwards, and to this day (when I take 1

tblspn/day) I can handle a good size glass of wine with no after effects

except perhaps feeling a bit more tired the next day. My guess is this

has something to do with the large amounts of flax seed oil pushing

trans fatty acids (and who knows what other junk) out of my liver,

enabling it to process things like alcohol much more efficiently.

Judith G

September 14, 2002

Donna,

Based on the overall picture, I think your response to the brassica

family is an intolerance to the sulfur in them rather than an allergy

to a protein in them. I don't yet understand how the sulfur

intolerance gets going in some PWCs. Thorstenson, who used

to be on this list, had that also, and I think she reported that it

got better over time by taking small amounts of the sulfur-containing

foods that she was able to tolerate in small amounts. Taking

molybdenem might help, also. This is an important thing to try to

correct, because sulfur metabolism is so important to the body. Can

you tolerate taurine, SAMe, NAC, glucosamine sulfate or DMSO

(dimethylsulfoxide)?

Rich

> I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced

through

> testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol

in

> homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a

sulfite

> oxidase deficiency.

> > > Donna in NC

September 14, 2002

Rich,

I don't know whether my case will move your understanding forward or not, but

here goes.

I have a high tolerance of alcohol in that up to about a bottle of wine a day

the only

effects are that I feel more relaxed (good) but it upsets my sleep/wake cycle

(bad) and to

a lesser extent my immune response (destabilises it). I suspect that the

benefits to me

are that it is a good vasodilator and relieves the feeling I get that my whole

system is

being stifled -- anyone else get this feeling?

Yes I was in a highly stressful job and drank this amount before becoming ill

(fits in)

but here's the difficult bit. Your description of the individual with a partial

blockade

of the Krebs cycle fits me exactly -- the burning need for animal protein, the

slow but

inexorable weight gain.

Rob

---- Original Message -----

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:27 PM

Subject: Re: alcohol intolerance

> The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very

> intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that

> they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is

> true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for

> processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their

> livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on

> gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the

> enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For

> example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to

> attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm,

> before he became ill.

..

>

> And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets

> of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori

> cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant,

> I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles

> or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle

> cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least.

>

> Rich

September 14, 2002

I know what you mean about intolerance to alcohol

I am the fluoride poisoned guy and there is a link .

Cryolite is the insecticide of choice for grapes. The F- content of

grape juices is extremely high as are raisens and wine. If the water

used to make the wine is from a fluoradated supply it is even worse.

Drinking at all would give me a hugh hang over. As soon as I learned

I was poisoned I decided to test the hypothesis that it was a

fluoride hangover by Drinking whiskey and PURE water. I drank enough

where I usually felt bad for days and the effect was not even a trace

of a hangover. Beer is also usually manufactured in Fluorodated

cities and does the same thing - the fluoride hangover - even in

small ammounts. Breweries also use fluoride to stop the yeast

fermentation process - how much remains I don't know. By chance I

was looking up stuff on F- and came across an article about Latrobe

Brewing Co - the makers of Rolling Rock Beer - is manufactured in an

UNfluorodated town , Latrobe PA I ran out and got some and drank at

least 4 in a row . I got a little drunk but my throat did not go

closed, no headache, no swelling of my chiari " hole " etc which occur

with 3 glass of F- water!

Just recently France ( 98% of Europe is NOT fluorodated) decreased

the allowable F- content in wine imported into their country and has

put a burden on the California wine producers. And the US gov wants

to raise the allowable F- in alot of foods from pesticides

Not everyone with CFS/FM is F- poisoned but it may be worth

considering - especially when it is so east to test - Just drink 3

cups of Decaf Green Tea - one of the fluoride kings.

-- In @y..., blueskyspring@a... wrote:

> After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly

held

> symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol.

>

> Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some

yellowy

> coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the

count. I

> do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor

thought it

> might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas?

>

September 14, 2002

Hi Rich,

I do attempt to take in small amounts of sulfur, at this time only in the

form of supplements. I am currently taking 500 mg MSM twice a day, have been

injecting mag sulfate and taurine for about 2 1/2 years now (I waste taurine

in my urine big time). I tried glucosamine sulfate several times, the last

time was about two months ago but did not tolerate it. Have never tried DMSO

or SAMe. I tried NAC shortly after I realized I was having trouble with

sulfur (when was on the list), and did not tolerate it then. I've

been thinking about trying NAC again, but I guess fear keeps me away. I did

order some mag sulfate cream from Kirkman's and every few days or so rub a

little on my body, particularly behind my knees or on my back. So far I seem

to tolerate the cream. I know I need to fix this problem, but don't know

how. It's so strange how foods I used to eat in quantitiy become so

intolerable, but it was a slow thing while it was happening, until one day I

realized I tolerated no sulfur. any comments or thoughts would be greatly

appreciated.

Donna in NC

Re: alcohol intolerance

> Donna,

>

> Based on the overall picture, I think your response to the brassica

> family is an intolerance to the sulfur in them rather than an allergy

> to a protein in them. I don't yet understand how the sulfur

> intolerance gets going in some PWCs. Thorstenson, who used

> to be on this list, had that also, and I think she reported that it

> got better over time by taking small amounts of the sulfur-containing

> foods that she was able to tolerate in small amounts. Taking

> molybdenem might help, also. This is an important thing to try to

> correct, because sulfur metabolism is so important to the body. Can

> you tolerate taurine, SAMe, NAC, glucosamine sulfate or DMSO

> (dimethylsulfoxide)?

>

> Rich

>

> > I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced

> through

> > testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol

> in

> > homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a

> sulfite

> > oxidase deficiency.

> > > > Donna in NC

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

September 14, 2002

Hi Rich, et al,

Thanks for all your comments. Like Donna, I cannot tolerate even the tiny

amount of alcohol in homeopathics. Yes, I am intolerant of sulphites, MSG, also

amines (including tyramine). Red wine in particular is very high in amines.

However all alcohol has a terrible effect on me.

I do not consume the brassica family of foods because of their amine content,

seem to tolerate eggs OK, but garlic causes problems. I cannot consume whey

because of dairy intolerance. All these food/chemical sensitivities only

occured after contracting CFS.

Thanks for the tip about molybdenum. I will certainly try it. For some reason

Flaxseed/linseed oil also causes problems, so I cannot take it (maybe it's high

in amines, but I can't find it listed anywhere to confirm this). Olive oil and

lemon juice, which are often recommended for CFS are high in amines so I cannot

use them.

I agree with Mike and Rich that B Vits. help avoid hangovers. During remission

I have used mega B's with high niacin/B3 very successfully to avoid hangovers.

I think it's also essential after drinking alcohol to rehydrate by drinking lots

of water before going to bed.

Recently I tried a new product in Australia called Alcodol (a product supposed

to stop hangovers) which was created by a CFS researcher. Anecdotally, when

tested for efficacy by local TV stations, 9/10 (healthy) drinkers reported that

they did not suffer their usual hangover. The researcher informed me that

several people with CFS had used his product and had lost their intolerance to

alcohol. Sadly, it didn't work for me.

I am using NAET and TAT to treat all my intolerances and will keep you posted of

any progress.

Jan.

>Message: 4

>Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:27:54 -0000

>From: " rvankonynen "

>Subject: Re: alcohol intolerance

Jan,

When I made this comment, I was talking specifically about ethanol.

In red wine, there are some other substances that may cause problems

for some PWCs as well. One is sulfite, which is used as a

preservative in most wines. Its mentioned on the label, at least in

the U.S. Some PWCs are unable to process it. There's also tyramine,

which is implicated in causing headaches in some people. I suspect

that while you may well be intolerant of ethanol, ethanol is probably

not what gives you problems for such a long time as two and a half

months. Do you know whether you are sulfite-sensitive? If so,

sometimes taking molybdenum will help this, since the enzyme for

processing sulfite is molybdenum-dependent.

The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very

intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that

they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is

true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for

processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their

livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on

gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the

enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For

example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to

attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm,

before he became ill.

There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may

know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a

genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are

other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the

enzymes needed.

And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets

of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori

cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant,

I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles

or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle

cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least.

Rich

>

> Hi Rich,

>

> >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example

if

> >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the

> >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via

> >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very

pleasant

> >way to go, though.

>

> Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all

acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one

glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel

rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after

that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last

for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms

for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol,

but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jan.

>

---------------------------------

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September 14, 2002

Rob,

This is intriguing. The only way I can think of to explain it is

that your liver must have a lot of NAD+. Do you take supplementary

niacin, niacinimide, or NADH? Another possibility is that tryptophan

is a substrate for making niacin in the body, and you may be getting

a lot of that from your high animal protein. Or you might just have

good genes for the enzymes that make NAD+.

Rich

> Rich,

>

> I don't know whether my case will move your understanding forward

or not, but here goes.

>

> I have a high tolerance of alcohol in that up to about a bottle of

wine a day the only

> effects are that I feel more relaxed (good) but it upsets my

sleep/wake cycle (bad) and to

> a lesser extent my immune response (destabilises it). I suspect

that the benefits to me

> are that it is a good vasodilator and relieves the feeling I get

that my whole system is

> being stifled -- anyone else get this feeling?

>

> Yes I was in a highly stressful job and drank this amount before

becoming ill (fits in)

> but here's the difficult bit. Your description of the individual

with a partial blockade

> of the Krebs cycle fits me exactly -- the burning need for animal

protein, the slow but

> inexorable weight gain.

>

> Rob

>

> ---- Original Message -----

> From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...>

> <@y...>

> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:27 PM

> Subject: Re: alcohol intolerance

>

> > The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very

> > intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported

that

> > they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is

> > true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity

for

> > processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps

their

> > livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on

> > gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support

the

> > enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For

> > example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been

accustomed to

> > attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the

norm,

> > before he became ill.

> .

> >

> > And of course, there is always the possibility of different

subsets

> > of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori

> > cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-

intolerant,

> > I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs

cycles

> > or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle

> > cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least.

> >

> > Rich

September 14, 2002

Judith,

That's very interesting about the salutary effect of flax oil on your

alcohol tolerance. I can't say I understand the biochemistry of that.

I think that in the past most of the PWCs I've encountered who can

tolerate alcohol have been males. I don't know why. Maybe I don't

have enough statistics, so it just looks that way. But to me, that's

another interesting thing about your case.

I'm not sure whether I would classify you two in the same subset or

not. I think we would have to look at a few more things.

No doubt there will be a big run on flax oil now!! LOL!!

Rich

>

> > Yes I was in a highly stressful job and drank this amount before

> becoming ill (fits in)

> > but here's the difficult bit. Your description of the individual

with

> a partial blockade

> > of the Krebs cycle fits me exactly -- the burning need for animal

> protein, the slow but

> > inexorable weight gain.

>

> my alcohol intake pre CFIDS was less than Rob's , but the highly

> stressful job, and kreb's cycle blockade info are the same for me.

So

> maybe the 2 of us are another sub-set!!

>

> Judith G

September 14, 2002

Jan,

Sounds like you have a very challenging set of restricted foods,

also. What may help with MSG is vitamin B-6 or the active form

pyridoxal-5-phosphate. It supports the enzyme that converts glutamic

acid to GABA (gamma aminobutyric acid). Glutamic acid is the main

excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain, and GABA is the main

inhibitory neurotransmitter. Taking B-6 may help to balance them

out, so that MSG isn't such a problem. It's important not to overdo

B-6 over the long term, though. 100 mg per day is probably O.K., but

if you get up into the gram per day range, it can cause your fingers

to have sensory neuropathy (tingling sensations), which, however, is

fortunately reversible if you cut back on B-6. There's a lot I don't

understand about these food sensitivities.

Rich

> >

> > Hi Rich,

> >

> > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for

example

> if

> > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the

> > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via

> > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very

> pleasant

> > >way to go, though.

> >

> > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all

> acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one

> glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just

feel

> rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after

> that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last

> for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms

> for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of

alcohol,

> but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Jan.

> >

>

> ---------------------------------

> Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

>

September 14, 2002

Donna,

The only things I can suggest are taking the moly and taking small

amounts of the sulfur-containing foods and supplements that you can

tolerate, and trying to work up in dose on the latter. Sulfates

should not be as much of a problem as some of the others, because

it's the most oxidized form of sulfur in the body, and I don't think

it gets chemically reduced to form the other things we've discussed.

It is useful for cartilage and for the detox system, though, so if

you can get some in, it may help with those, as well as sparing some

of the chemically reduced forms of sulfur, such as cysteine, which is

nnormally oxidized to provide sulfate. Hopefully that would allow

more of the cysteine to go into making glutathione. Taurine is also

normally made from cysteine, so the sparing comment goes for it, too.

Rich

> > > I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced

> > through

> > > testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even

alcohol

> > in

> > > homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than

just a

> > sulfite

> > > oxidase deficiency.

> > > > > Donna in NC

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

September 14, 2002

I question the genetic factor, just because at certain times during my

illness I have been extremely alcohol intolerant, while at other times I am

not much at all. I am benefiting currently from a high protein diet (which

we just discussed on a separate thread as being a problem with the kreb's

cycle) and currently can drink alcohol without much problems. I don't drink

much of course, I think it would do me in. But a beer now and then is no

problem for about the last year. But I have been very sick during much of

that time. At other times I wasn't as symptomatic, but the alcohol killed

me.

I wonder if it has something to do with mercury, or with supplements I am

taking now that maybe I wasn't then.

Thanks,

Doris

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