New to the list

July 31, 2000

Or how about just walking around with a bag over your head?!

There are parents who have started organizations and are out in the open

advocating for you. How can you allow them to stand alone when they are

helping you? Silent minorities lose their rights and get wiped out in

htis country. What the hell are you afraid of by speaking your mind and

signing your name to it? If you remain anonymous, then you won't be

counted.

gary

On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:43:44 -0700 Levy <1levy1@...> writes:

> Perhaps just stating country or even region (West coast, East coast,

> prairies, etc) would be helpful.

>

> Krasner wrote:

>

> > Katrina,

> >

> > Pardon my tone. It was sort of rhetorical. I was just wondering

> why every

> > " new member intro " always seems to exclude where the people

> actually

> > live. I think it's important most of the time.

> >

> > On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:52:30 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> <katrinaj@...>

> > writes:

> > > Hi ,

> > > At the time, I live in Denver, CO. We just moved here. (Planning

> on

> > > staying). I guess my posts sound all over the place because we

> were!

> > > Having

> > > been military, I have covered a lot of ground. I have dealt with

> a

> > > number of

> > > people (doctors, school health officials, etc.) in a number of

> > > states and

> > > often the issues were never resolved because we left the area. I

> > > guess I am

> > > lucky that I never had to deal with any one doctor for too long

> (in

> > > military

> > > health care, you don't get a choice of doctor and the majority

> of

> > > them are

> > > very pushy, and sometimes rather threatening, about their

> beleifs

> > > over

> > > mine).

> > > Sorry for any confusion. I am still new here and learning the

> ropes

> > > of how

> > > to post. It seems like everyone here already knows each other

> pretty

> > > well. I

> > > guess it will just take me a while.

> > > Katrina

> > > By the way, it was in land that my son attended school.

> > >

> > > >From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> > > >Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

> > > >Vaccinationsegroups

> > > >Subject: Re: New to the List

> > > >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:42:43 -0400

> > > >

> > > >does the town you live in have a name? why does every " intro " I

> > > read

> > > >always exclude geography?!

> > > >

> > > >On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:40:46 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> > > <katrinaj@...>

> > > >writes:

> > > > > Hello Everyone,

> > > > > I have been so busy reading all of your email that I am just

> now

> > > > > able to

> > > > > take the time to write my " hello, this is me " letter.

> > > > > So here it is. I have three children, ages 8 1/2, 6 1/2 and

> 1

> > > 1/2.

> > > > > They were

> > > > > all born at home, vegetarians (except for my older daughter,

> > > who, if

> > > > > left

> > > > > alone, would eat an entire chicken), homeschooled, and

> raised as

> > > > > much as

> > > > > possible by attachment parenting.(Isn't it sad that they

> have to

> > > > > make up a

> > > > > special term for a special type of parenting that just comes

> > > > > naturally?)

> > > > > None of them are vaccinated. Excepting that my son DID

> receive a

> > > > > tetanus

> > > > > shot in an emergency room visit following an accident. He

> was

> > > hit by

> > > > > a young

> > > > > man on a bicycle and dragged down a paved and graveled road.

> The

> > > > > doctors

> > > > > thought it best that he receive the shot and as they were

> > > getting

> > > > > ready to

> > > > > give it to him, I happened to glance at the bottle on the

> tray

> > > and

> > > > > noticed

> > > > > that it was the combination shot. I pointed this out to the

> > > nurse

> > > > > who jumped

> > > > > back with her needle and asked, " Why, has he had a reaction

> to

> > > this

> > > > > shot

> > > > > before? " I explained the situation and she went off to

> discuss

> > > it

> > > > > with the

> > > > > doctor. He came and, in a nasty tone, began lecturing me and

> > > told me

> > > > > I was

> > > > > wrong, that it was NOT manufactured as a separate shot.

> Another

> > > > > nurse (bless

> > > > > her) came storming over, threw the fridge open, grabbed the

> > > SINGLE

> > > > > SHOT

> > > > > (that they don't make) and slammed it down in front of him.

> I

> > > didn't

> > > > > hear

> > > > > another word from him and he avoided me the rest of our

> visit.

> > > > > Illness is

> > > > > very uncommon in our house. All three of my little ones were

> > > (the

> > > > > youngest

> > > > > still is) breastfed, beeing self weaned (so far at around

> age

> > > two).

> > > > > My son

> > > > > had his first solid food on his first birthday, my daughter,

> at

> > > 8

> > > > > months and

> > > > > my little one, at around 5 months, my son being the

> healthiest

> > > of

> > > > > them all.

> > > > > We were told that my son had a double ear infection during

> his

> > > > > chicken pox

> > > > > episode but it was never tested so I don't know for sure if

> it

> > > > > really was,

> > > > > or just inflamation from the sores. I stopped his medication

> > > after

> > > > > one or

> > > > > two doses and later got the comment from the doctor, " Well,

> I

> > > see

> > > > > that the

> > > > > antibiotics cleared this right up. " Never told him that we

> used

> > > the

> > > > > garlic

> > > > > oil Herbs For Kids remedy. That was our only incidence of

> ear

> > > > > infections. I

> > > > > made my no-vax decision when my son was born. At the time of

> his

> > > > > appointment, there was a problem with another child getting

> his

> > > > > shots in

> > > > > that office and they had to cancel my appointment. What a

> > > blessing!

> > > > > After

> > > > > that, each time I reluctantly made appointments for his

> shots,

> > > > > something

> > > > > would happen that would cancel it. I started reading every

> book

> > > on

> > > > > the

> > > > > subject I could get my hands on and started going to

> lectures

> > > and

> > > > > hearing

> > > > > panels of doctors speak on the pro's and con's. Even the pro

> > > doctors

> > > > > said

> > > > > that there was a risk and that it was not right for

> everyone.

> > > That

> > > > > was

> > > > > enough for me. Then stories started coming at me, the young

> boy

> > > in

> > > > > our town

> > > > > who developed polio from the shot (permanently in a

> wheelchair),

> > > the

> > > > > infant

> > > > > son of the General on our base who got all of his shots to

> go

> > > > > overseas and

> > > > > died and few hours later from complications, the " outbreak "

> of

> > > > > whooping

> > > > > cough in the next county where those who were immunized

> became

> > > much,

> > > > > much

> > > > > sicker and took so much longer to recover (for some, it was

> a

> > > year

> > > > > compared

> > > > > to the month or two months for the unvaccinated ones) than

> those

> > > who

> > > > > were

> > > > > not vaccinated. And it just went on and on. Even my mother

> now

> > > > > regularly

> > > > > sends me articles about the latest bad reactions. Beeing

> > > seen by

> > > > >

> > > > > military doctors, you get to be exposed to a whole different

> > > world

> > > > > of guilt

> > > > > tactics, propoganda and pressure. If nothing else, it has

> given

> > > me a

> > > > >

> > > > > wonderful opportuniy to exercise my brain. Now we are back

> in

> > > the

> > > > > civilian

> > > > > world and still dealing with the doctors. In general, we

> give

> > > them

> > > > > the " I am

> > > > > looking into that, will get back to you " statement. I have

> been

> > > > > threatened

> > > > > with being turned into the state if I did not comply, but

> they

> > > never

> > > > >

> > > > > followed up on it. I have also been told that the doctors

> would

> > > not

> > > > > see me

> > > > > until I had the kid's shot records up to date. My son DID

> attend

> > > K

> > > > > and first

> > > > > grade in a public school. The health office asked me a

> million

> > > and

> > > > > one

> > > > > questions about my decision and said they were just so

> curious,

> > > they

> > > > > had

> > > > > never personally had contact with someone who did not

> vaccinate.

> > > > > They

> > > > > advised me to sign the religious exemption part of the form,

> > > saying

> > > > > that it

> > > > > was just easier than the medical choice because I would have

> to

> > > show

> > > > > proof

> > > > > and they followed up on it AND the medical reason would have

> to

> > > > > continue.

> > > > > If, for some reson, the medical threat passed, I would then

> have

> > > to

> > > > >

> > > > > immunize him. I am considered the stupid black sheep of

> the

> > > > > family for

> > > > > not getting my kids vaxed. My favourite is my husband's

> cousin,

> > > a

> > > > > military

> > > > > pediatrician, who he and his wife just had a baby. We were

> told,

> > > > > through

> > > > > family members, that we were not to have contact with them

> > > because

> > > > > of the

> > > > > threat our children posed to his daughter. ???!!!??? Just

> the

> > > > > other day, I

> > > > > got the story of how proud everyone was of the newest baby

> in

> > > our

> > > > > family,

> > > > > that she didn't even cry during her shots. I think they

> think

> > > that

> > > > > that is

> > > > > why I have made this decision, that I don't want them to cry

> > > over a

> > > > > shot.

> > > > > After all, that is the worst thing that could happen,

> right???

> > > All

> > > > > those

> > > > > crazies who don't vaccinate, they just make that stuff up,

> > > right???

> > > > > Well, have I rambled enough? Plus, my little alarm is going

> off.

> > > I

> > > > > guess she

> > > > > feels that my time on the computer is up.

> > > > > Thank you all for being and for the wonderful information

> you

> > > pass

> > > > > on.

> > > > > Katrina

> > > > >

> > > > > By the way, I happened to grab an old issue of Mothering

> > > magazine

> > > > > yesterday

> > > > > that happened to have an article on Neonatal Jaundice. It

> > > mentions

> > > > > everything I have been reading on this list regarding

> jaundice

> > > from

> > > > > the

> > > > > different types and the treatments to Rh and ABO

> > > incompatibilities

> > > > > to cord

> > > > > clamping. It is found in issue number 24, summer 1982. This

> is

> > > an

> > > > > older

> > > > > issue, out of print so if anyone is interested and cannot

> get a

> > > > > copy, I

> > > > > would be happy to pass it along.

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________________

> > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> > > > > http://www.hotmail.com

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > > > > net.

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> > >

> >

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >________________________________________________________________

> > > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

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> >

>

________________________________________________________________________

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> > > http://www.hotmail.com

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > ________________________________________________________________

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> >

>

________________________________________________________________

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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

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July 31, 2000

There are no federal or state laws requiring any child to be vaccinated.

It would raise Constitutional issues if they tried. Instead, you have

laws requiring vaccination only for school enrollment. Homeschooled kids

don't have to be vaccinated by any law.

As a resident of North Carolina, you might want to get on these dedicated

activist's mail list and assist them:

Jillani, Director

People Advocating Vaccine Education (PAVE)

PO Box 36701

Charlotte, NC 28236

werpave@...

web site: www.unidial.com/~metroprint

Alan , Director

Citizens for Healthcare Freedom (CHF)

P.O. Box 62282

Durham, NC 27715

aphillip@...

Informed Parents' Vaccination Home Page:

http://www.unc.edu/~aphillip/www/vaccine/informed.htm

Vaccine Information Resource Center:

http://www.unc.edu/~aphillip/www/vaccine/resrcntr.htm

CHF is a nonprofit corp. dedicated to raising awareness about vaccine

risks, failures, deaths and injuries, and to networking throughout North

Carolina to organize support for the purpose of empowering citizens to

obtain the legal right to make an informed choice.

----gary

On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:27:35 -0400 " Peace HomoFreakian "

<peace_b_untiu@...> writes:

> Well, I recently introduced my Self to this list, and I don't

> know if I said where we live now, so in case I didn't we live in

> ville, NC, USA. The law I've seen regarding vaccinations here

> is that children must Be immunised to enter school, but what

> I'd like to know and haven't yet Been able to find out is whether

> home-schooling our children (provided we ever actually get any)

> will make it less of a hassle not to have them vaccinated. We intend

> to home-school regardless, but I want to Be prepared when the

> arguments start cropping up. I know a lot can change in six years

> (which is of course the absolute earliest we'd have to worry about

> that since I'm not even pregnant yet), and I want to know what I can

> do to help facilitate changes in that time as well. Thanks

> muchly for Bein' here!

>

> Be...

> Peace........................ :->

>

________________________________________________________________

YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

July 31, 2000

That's the impression I got about NC, too, when I found a little blurb on their vax laws (that all children of school age have to show proof of vaccination or exemption). I couldn't find any details because I didn't know where to look, but I'm sure I can get some help with that here. :-> The other thing I hope to find out about is how to fill out exemption forms since I'm not affiliated with a religion. Some people here have mentioned exemption on the basis of philosophy. Is that more likely to Be contested? Would it Be a good idea to try and get some forms as they currently stand so I know what I need to establish to make it stick?

Isn't it amazing that in sixty-five years we've gone from having no vaccinations to them Being something people are hardly allowed to live without, and that, even more incredibly, most people think we CAN'T live without? Ugh... And isn't it amazing, too, that all these new conditions and dis-eases (AIDS and all the other immune-deficiency disorders and high incidences of asthma and ADD and all it's brothers, sisters and cousins) have come about in the generations following the first mass vaccinations, but there are always other 'reasons' for these things according to the Great White-Coated Gods? Hmp. In any case, I'm glad y'all are here. :->

Be...

Peace.......................... :->

Re: New to the List

In a message dated 7/31/00 7:01:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gk-cfic@... writes:<< Instead, you havelaws requiring vaccination only for school enrollment. Homeschooled kidsdon't have to be vaccinated by any law. >>ACtually, here in PA, homeschoolers have to turn in the same vaccination forms to the state as those with children enrolled in school. I assume many other states have the same policy.www.diapers.bizland.com

July 31, 2000

There is a simple exemption form to sign for NC and you just need to keep it

on the premises, where you operate your school. You can go the website:

http://www.doa.state.nc.us/dnpe/ for what is required.

My advice would be to KNOW your rights and what is truly required by law. I

mentioned in another post that when we had to appear in court for a

homeschooling issue, they didn't have a CLUE about the form. I had signed

the exemption portion and all they could see was that the immun. schedule

had been left blank. They kept telling me over and over and over that I just

had to get that paper filled out. I don't know if they finally understood me

that I had signed the exemption, or if they finally just let it go. (They

seemed to be completely lost in some other areas,too, including

homeschooling). Anyway, just be sure that you know your stuff. Don't let

them tell you any different. And mentioned PAVE....Wonderful group!

Good luck. If you have everything to back yourself up (Keep everything!) it

is a smooth and wonderful ride. Get in touch with one of the homeschooling

groups in your area (there are many in NC) for support. Again good luck and

have fun!

Katrina

>From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>Vaccinationsegroups, peace_b_untiu@...

>Subject: Re: New to the List

>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 05:39:21 -0400

>

>There are no federal or state laws requiring any child to be vaccinated.

>It would raise Constitutional issues if they tried. Instead, you have

>laws requiring vaccination only for school enrollment. Homeschooled kids

>don't have to be vaccinated by any law.

>

>As a resident of North Carolina, you might want to get on these dedicated

>activist's mail list and assist them:

>

> Jillani, Director

>People Advocating Vaccine Education (PAVE)

>PO Box 36701

>Charlotte, NC 28236

>werpave@...

>web site: www.unidial.com/~metroprint

>

>Alan , Director

>Citizens for Healthcare Freedom (CHF)

>P.O. Box 62282

>Durham, NC 27715

>aphillip@...

>Informed Parents' Vaccination Home Page:

>http://www.unc.edu/~aphillip/www/vaccine/informed.htm

>Vaccine Information Resource Center:

>http://www.unc.edu/~aphillip/www/vaccine/resrcntr.htm

>CHF is a nonprofit corp. dedicated to raising awareness about vaccine

>risks, failures, deaths and injuries, and to networking throughout North

>Carolina to organize support for the purpose of empowering citizens to

>obtain the legal right to make an informed choice.

>

>----gary

>

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:27:35 -0400 " Peace HomoFreakian "

><peace_b_untiu@...> writes:

> > Well, I recently introduced my Self to this list, and I don't

> > know if I said where we live now, so in case I didn't we live in

> > ville, NC, USA. The law I've seen regarding vaccinations here

> > is that children must Be immunised to enter school, but what

> > I'd like to know and haven't yet Been able to find out is whether

> > home-schooling our children (provided we ever actually get any)

> > will make it less of a hassle not to have them vaccinated. We intend

> > to home-school regardless, but I want to Be prepared when the

> > arguments start cropping up. I know a lot can change in six years

> > (which is of course the absolute earliest we'd have to worry about

> > that since I'm not even pregnant yet), and I want to know what I can

> > do to help facilitate changes in that time as well. Thanks

> > muchly for Bein' here!

> >

> > Be...

> > Peace........................ :->

> >

>

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________

>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

>Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

July 31, 2000

Whew! Didn't know that my post would stir up so much talk! The reason I

didn't mention my location originally was just out of pure mistake. Got lost

in my rant, I guess. I spent, well, since my son was born 8 1/2 years ago,

as well as the time I was pregnant with him, tiptoeing around doctors and

other " legal " people. I avoided taking my children to the doctors many times

because of the confrontation I had to deal with. Even though I used to be

able to quote figures and statements by all of the major health organiztions

and seemed like I really knew what I was talking about, I could quickly be

reduced to a whimpering nothing by a doctor, or even the nurses. Like I said

before, I was threatened more than once by doctors with being turned in to

the state if I did not comply. Also, like I said, they never followed up on

me (when I walked out of the office for the last time when switching to my

midwife, they never even called to see why I missed my next

appointment.....never did hear from them again). Perhaps these people in

these positions (working for health departments, schools, etc.) are trained

to be intimidating and threatening because they know that many people are

not aware of thier legal rights, will succomb to them and perhaps they can

snag a few more of us with immunizations, before we find out that we really

didn't have to. ???

At any rate, as I have gotten older and have learned more and more about the

subject AND gotten involved in supportive groups, I feel much more armed

when I go to the doctors. Still very uncomfortable, but so much better than

in the past. It does help so much when you have others around you that

support your beliefs (a very good reason for stating your laocation). I

still get paranoid that someone is looking over my shoulder and will " find

out " that we don't vaccinate and will start trouble, but I am also more

aware of my rights to counter the blows.

The internet gives us a certain amount of privacy, and the freedom to speak

with a mask on, but it is still quite simple to trace someone, even by thier

" handle " . It is good to be safe but I don't think that omiting your location

is going to make that much of difference if someone was looking for you.

Boy, did I talk in circles on that one!?!

Anyway, I am glad to have found you all and love all the info I am gaining!

Thank you all!

Katrina

>From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>Vaccinationsegroups

>Subject: Re: New to the List

>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 05:23:12 -0400

>

>Or how about just walking around with a bag over your head?!

>

>There are parents who have started organizations and are out in the open

>advocating for you. How can you allow them to stand alone when they are

>helping you? Silent minorities lose their rights and get wiped out in

>htis country. What the hell are you afraid of by speaking your mind and

>signing your name to it? If you remain anonymous, then you won't be

>counted.

>

>gary

>

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:43:44 -0700 Levy <1levy1@...> writes:

> > Perhaps just stating country or even region (West coast, East coast,

> > prairies, etc) would be helpful.

> >

> > Krasner wrote:

> >

> > > Katrina,

> > >

> > > Pardon my tone. It was sort of rhetorical. I was just wondering

> > why every

> > > " new member intro " always seems to exclude where the people

> > actually

> > > live. I think it's important most of the time.

> > >

> > > On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:52:30 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> > <katrinaj@...>

> > > writes:

> > > > Hi ,

> > > > At the time, I live in Denver, CO. We just moved here. (Planning

> > on

> > > > staying). I guess my posts sound all over the place because we

> > were!

> > > > Having

> > > > been military, I have covered a lot of ground. I have dealt with

> > a

> > > > number of

> > > > people (doctors, school health officials, etc.) in a number of

> > > > states and

> > > > often the issues were never resolved because we left the area. I

> > > > guess I am

> > > > lucky that I never had to deal with any one doctor for too long

> > (in

> > > > military

> > > > health care, you don't get a choice of doctor and the majority

> > of

> > > > them are

> > > > very pushy, and sometimes rather threatening, about their

> > beleifs

> > > > over

> > > > mine).

> > > > Sorry for any confusion. I am still new here and learning the

> > ropes

> > > > of how

> > > > to post. It seems like everyone here already knows each other

> > pretty

> > > > well. I

> > > > guess it will just take me a while.

> > > > Katrina

> > > > By the way, it was in land that my son attended school.

> > > >

> > > > >From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> > > > >Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

> > > > >Vaccinationsegroups

> > > > >Subject: Re: New to the List

> > > > >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:42:43 -0400

> > > > >

> > > > >does the town you live in have a name? why does every " intro " I

> > > > read

> > > > >always exclude geography?!

> > > > >

> > > > >On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:40:46 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> > > > <katrinaj@...>

> > > > >writes:

> > > > > > Hello Everyone,

> > > > > > I have been so busy reading all of your email that I am just

> > now

> > > > > > able to

> > > > > > take the time to write my " hello, this is me " letter.

> > > > > > So here it is. I have three children, ages 8 1/2, 6 1/2 and

> > 1

> > > > 1/2.

> > > > > > They were

> > > > > > all born at home, vegetarians (except for my older daughter,

> > > > who, if

> > > > > > left

> > > > > > alone, would eat an entire chicken), homeschooled, and

> > raised as

> > > > > > much as

> > > > > > possible by attachment parenting.(Isn't it sad that they

> > have to

> > > > > > make up a

> > > > > > special term for a special type of parenting that just comes

> > > > > > naturally?)

> > > > > > None of them are vaccinated. Excepting that my son DID

> > receive a

> > > > > > tetanus

> > > > > > shot in an emergency room visit following an accident. He

> > was

> > > > hit by

> > > > > > a young

> > > > > > man on a bicycle and dragged down a paved and graveled road.

> > The

> > > > > > doctors

> > > > > > thought it best that he receive the shot and as they were

> > > > getting

> > > > > > ready to

> > > > > > give it to him, I happened to glance at the bottle on the

> > tray

> > > > and

> > > > > > noticed

> > > > > > that it was the combination shot. I pointed this out to the

> > > > nurse

> > > > > > who jumped

> > > > > > back with her needle and asked, " Why, has he had a reaction

> > to

> > > > this

> > > > > > shot

> > > > > > before? " I explained the situation and she went off to

> > discuss

> > > > it

> > > > > > with the

> > > > > > doctor. He came and, in a nasty tone, began lecturing me and

> > > > told me

> > > > > > I was

> > > > > > wrong, that it was NOT manufactured as a separate shot.

> > Another

> > > > > > nurse (bless

> > > > > > her) came storming over, threw the fridge open, grabbed the

> > > > SINGLE

> > > > > > SHOT

> > > > > > (that they don't make) and slammed it down in front of him.

> > I

> > > > didn't

> > > > > > hear

> > > > > > another word from him and he avoided me the rest of our

> > visit.

> > > > > > Illness is

> > > > > > very uncommon in our house. All three of my little ones were

> > > > (the

> > > > > > youngest

> > > > > > still is) breastfed, beeing self weaned (so far at around

> > age

> > > > two).

> > > > > > My son

> > > > > > had his first solid food on his first birthday, my daughter,

> > at

> > > > 8

> > > > > > months and

> > > > > > my little one, at around 5 months, my son being the

> > healthiest

> > > > of

> > > > > > them all.

> > > > > > We were told that my son had a double ear infection during

> > his

> > > > > > chicken pox

> > > > > > episode but it was never tested so I don't know for sure if

> > it

> > > > > > really was,

> > > > > > or just inflamation from the sores. I stopped his medication

> > > > after

> > > > > > one or

> > > > > > two doses and later got the comment from the doctor, " Well,

> > I

> > > > see

> > > > > > that the

> > > > > > antibiotics cleared this right up. " Never told him that we

> > used

> > > > the

> > > > > > garlic

> > > > > > oil Herbs For Kids remedy. That was our only incidence of

> > ear

> > > > > > infections. I

> > > > > > made my no-vax decision when my son was born. At the time of

> > his

> > > > > > appointment, there was a problem with another child getting

> > his

> > > > > > shots in

> > > > > > that office and they had to cancel my appointment. What a

> > > > blessing!

> > > > > > After

> > > > > > that, each time I reluctantly made appointments for his

> > shots,

> > > > > > something

> > > > > > would happen that would cancel it. I started reading every

> > book

> > > > on

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > subject I could get my hands on and started going to

> > lectures

> > > > and

> > > > > > hearing

> > > > > > panels of doctors speak on the pro's and con's. Even the pro

> > > > doctors

> > > > > > said

> > > > > > that there was a risk and that it was not right for

> > everyone.

> > > > That

> > > > > > was

> > > > > > enough for me. Then stories started coming at me, the young

> > boy

> > > > in

> > > > > > our town

> > > > > > who developed polio from the shot (permanently in a

> > wheelchair),

> > > > the

> > > > > > infant

> > > > > > son of the General on our base who got all of his shots to

> > go

> > > > > > overseas and

> > > > > > died and few hours later from complications, the " outbreak "

> > of

> > > > > > whooping

> > > > > > cough in the next county where those who were immunized

> > became

> > > > much,

> > > > > > much

> > > > > > sicker and took so much longer to recover (for some, it was

> > a

> > > > year

> > > > > > compared

> > > > > > to the month or two months for the unvaccinated ones) than

> > those

> > > > who

> > > > > > were

> > > > > > not vaccinated. And it just went on and on. Even my mother

> > now

> > > > > > regularly

> > > > > > sends me articles about the latest bad reactions. Beeing

> > > > seen by

> > > > > >

> > > > > > military doctors, you get to be exposed to a whole different

> > > > world

> > > > > > of guilt

> > > > > > tactics, propoganda and pressure. If nothing else, it has

> > given

> > > > me a

> > > > > >

> > > > > > wonderful opportuniy to exercise my brain. Now we are back

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > > civilian

> > > > > > world and still dealing with the doctors. In general, we

> > give

> > > > them

> > > > > > the " I am

> > > > > > looking into that, will get back to you " statement. I have

> > been

> > > > > > threatened

> > > > > > with being turned into the state if I did not comply, but

> > they

> > > > never

> > > > > >

> > > > > > followed up on it. I have also been told that the doctors

> > would

> > > > not

> > > > > > see me

> > > > > > until I had the kid's shot records up to date. My son DID

> > attend

> > > > K

> > > > > > and first

> > > > > > grade in a public school. The health office asked me a

> > million

> > > > and

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > questions about my decision and said they were just so

> > curious,

> > > > they

> > > > > > had

> > > > > > never personally had contact with someone who did not

> > vaccinate.

> > > > > > They

> > > > > > advised me to sign the religious exemption part of the form,

> > > > saying

> > > > > > that it

> > > > > > was just easier than the medical choice because I would have

> > to

> > > > show

> > > > > > proof

> > > > > > and they followed up on it AND the medical reason would have

> > to

> > > > > > continue.

> > > > > > If, for some reson, the medical threat passed, I would then

> > have

> > > > to

> > > > > >

> > > > > > immunize him. I am considered the stupid black sheep of

> > the

> > > > > > family for

> > > > > > not getting my kids vaxed. My favourite is my husband's

> > cousin,

> > > > a

> > > > > > military

> > > > > > pediatrician, who he and his wife just had a baby. We were

> > told,

> > > > > > through

> > > > > > family members, that we were not to have contact with them

> > > > because

> > > > > > of the

> > > > > > threat our children posed to his daughter. ???!!!??? Just

> > the

> > > > > > other day, I

> > > > > > got the story of how proud everyone was of the newest baby

> > in

> > > > our

> > > > > > family,

> > > > > > that she didn't even cry during her shots. I think they

> > think

> > > > that

> > > > > > that is

> > > > > > why I have made this decision, that I don't want them to cry

> > > > over a

> > > > > > shot.

> > > > > > After all, that is the worst thing that could happen,

> > right???

> > > > All

> > > > > > those

> > > > > > crazies who don't vaccinate, they just make that stuff up,

> > > > right???

> > > > > > Well, have I rambled enough? Plus, my little alarm is going

> > off.

> > > > I

> > > > > > guess she

> > > > > > feels that my time on the computer is up.

> > > > > > Thank you all for being and for the wonderful information

> > you

> > > > pass

> > > > > > on.

> > > > > > Katrina

> > > > > >

> > > > > > By the way, I happened to grab an old issue of Mothering

> > > > magazine

> > > > > > yesterday

> > > > > > that happened to have an article on Neonatal Jaundice. It

> > > > mentions

> > > > > > everything I have been reading on this list regarding

> > jaundice

> > > > from

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > different types and the treatments to Rh and ABO

> > > > incompatibilities

> > > > > > to cord

> > > > > > clamping. It is found in issue number 24, summer 1982. This

> > is

> > > > an

> > > > > > older

> > > > > > issue, out of print so if anyone is interested and cannot

> > get a

> > > > > > copy, I

> > > > > > would be happy to pass it along.

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> > > > > > http://www.hotmail.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on

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> > > > > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com

> > > > Install

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> > > > > > 1/6346/10/_/489317/_/964464047/

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >________________________________________________________________

> > > > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

> > > > >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

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>________________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> > > > http://www.hotmail.com

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

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July 31, 2000

Welcome Katrina,

I think that is the case with most people on the list, just don't think

about saying where they live. No great coverup.

I'm trying to keep a list of where everyone lists so I can find a resource

right away in each state. I'd like it if everyone put their first name and

state in their signature!

Especially those of you with the same first names - I get so confused which

or Dawn or Kim it is!

Sheri

At 03:31 PM 07/31/2000 GMT, you wrote:

>Whew! Didn't know that my post would stir up so much talk! The reason I

>didn't mention my location originally was just out of pure mistake. Got lost

>in my rant, I guess. I spent, well, since my son was born 8 1/2 years ago,

>as well as the time I was pregnant with him, tiptoeing around doctors and

>other " legal " people. I avoided taking my children to the doctors many times

>because of the confrontation I had to deal with. Even though I used to be

>able to quote figures and statements by all of the major health organiztions

>and seemed like I really knew what I was talking about, I could quickly be

>reduced to a whimpering nothing by a doctor, or even the nurses. Like I said

>before, I was threatened more than once by doctors with being turned in to

>the state if I did not comply. Also, like I said, they never followed up on

>me (when I walked out of the office for the last time when switching to my

>midwife, they never even called to see why I missed my next

>appointment.....never did hear from them again). Perhaps these people in

>these positions (working for health departments, schools, etc.) are trained

>to be intimidating and threatening because they know that many people are

>not aware of thier legal rights, will succomb to them and perhaps they can

>snag a few more of us with immunizations, before we find out that we really

>didn't have to. ???

>At any rate, as I have gotten older and have learned more and more about the

>subject AND gotten involved in supportive groups, I feel much more armed

>when I go to the doctors. Still very uncomfortable, but so much better than

>in the past. It does help so much when you have others around you that

>support your beliefs (a very good reason for stating your laocation). I

>still get paranoid that someone is looking over my shoulder and will " find

>out " that we don't vaccinate and will start trouble, but I am also more

>aware of my rights to counter the blows.

>

>The internet gives us a certain amount of privacy, and the freedom to speak

>with a mask on, but it is still quite simple to trace someone, even by thier

> " handle " . It is good to be safe but I don't think that omiting your location

>is going to make that much of difference if someone was looking for you.

>Boy, did I talk in circles on that one!?!

>Anyway, I am glad to have found you all and love all the info I am gaining!

>Thank you all!

>Katrina

>

>>From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>>Vaccinationsegroups

>>Subject: Re: New to the List

>>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 05:23:12 -0400

>>

>>Or how about just walking around with a bag over your head?!

>>

>>There are parents who have started organizations and are out in the open

>>advocating for you. How can you allow them to stand alone when they are

>>helping you? Silent minorities lose their rights and get wiped out in

>>htis country. What the hell are you afraid of by speaking your mind and

>>signing your name to it? If you remain anonymous, then you won't be

>>counted.

>>

>>gary

>>

>>On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:43:44 -0700 Levy <1levy1@...> writes:

>> > Perhaps just stating country or even region (West coast, East coast,

>> > prairies, etc) would be helpful.

>> >

>> > Krasner wrote:

>> >

>> > > Katrina,

>> > >

>> > > Pardon my tone. It was sort of rhetorical. I was just wondering

>> > why every

>> > > " new member intro " always seems to exclude where the people

>> > actually

>> > > live. I think it's important most of the time.

>> > >

>> > > On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:52:30 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

>> > <katrinaj@...>

>> > > writes:

>> > > > Hi ,

>> > > > At the time, I live in Denver, CO. We just moved here. (Planning

>> > on

>> > > > staying). I guess my posts sound all over the place because we

>> > were!

>> > > > Having

>> > > > been military, I have covered a lot of ground. I have dealt with

>> > a

>> > > > number of

>> > > > people (doctors, school health officials, etc.) in a number of

>> > > > states and

>> > > > often the issues were never resolved because we left the area. I

>> > > > guess I am

>> > > > lucky that I never had to deal with any one doctor for too long

>> > (in

>> > > > military

>> > > > health care, you don't get a choice of doctor and the majority

>> > of

>> > > > them are

>> > > > very pushy, and sometimes rather threatening, about their

>> > beleifs

>> > > > over

>> > > > mine).

>> > > > Sorry for any confusion. I am still new here and learning the

>> > ropes

>> > > > of how

>> > > > to post. It seems like everyone here already knows each other

>> > pretty

>> > > > well. I

>> > > > guess it will just take me a while.

>> > > > Katrina

>> > > > By the way, it was in land that my son attended school.

>> > > >

>> > > > >From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>> > > > >Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>> > > > >Vaccinationsegroups

>> > > > >Subject: Re: New to the List

>> > > > >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:42:43 -0400

>> > > > >

>> > > > >does the town you live in have a name? why does every " intro " I

>> > > > read

>> > > > >always exclude geography?!

>> > > > >

>> > > > >On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:40:46 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

>> > > > <katrinaj@...>

>> > > > >writes:

>> > > > > > Hello Everyone,

>> > > > > > I have been so busy reading all of your email that I am just

>> > now

>> > > > > > able to

>> > > > > > take the time to write my " hello, this is me " letter.

>> > > > > > So here it is. I have three children, ages 8 1/2, 6 1/2 and

>> > 1

>> > > > 1/2.

>> > > > > > They were

>> > > > > > all born at home, vegetarians (except for my older daughter,

>> > > > who, if

>> > > > > > left

>> > > > > > alone, would eat an entire chicken), homeschooled, and

>> > raised as

>> > > > > > much as

>> > > > > > possible by attachment parenting.(Isn't it sad that they

>> > have to

>> > > > > > make up a

>> > > > > > special term for a special type of parenting that just comes

>> > > > > > naturally?)

>> > > > > > None of them are vaccinated. Excepting that my son DID

>> > receive a

>> > > > > > tetanus

>> > > > > > shot in an emergency room visit following an accident. He

>> > was

>> > > > hit by

>> > > > > > a young

>> > > > > > man on a bicycle and dragged down a paved and graveled road.

>> > The

>> > > > > > doctors

>> > > > > > thought it best that he receive the shot and as they were

>> > > > getting

>> > > > > > ready to

>> > > > > > give it to him, I happened to glance at the bottle on the

>> > tray

>> > > > and

>> > > > > > noticed

>> > > > > > that it was the combination shot. I pointed this out to the

>> > > > nurse

>> > > > > > who jumped

>> > > > > > back with her needle and asked, " Why, has he had a reaction

>> > to

>> > > > this

>> > > > > > shot

>> > > > > > before? " I explained the situation and she went off to

>> > discuss

>> > > > it

>> > > > > > with the

>> > > > > > doctor. He came and, in a nasty tone, began lecturing me and

>> > > > told me

>> > > > > > I was

>> > > > > > wrong, that it was NOT manufactured as a separate shot.

>> > Another

>> > > > > > nurse (bless

>> > > > > > her) came storming over, threw the fridge open, grabbed the

>> > > > SINGLE

>> > > > > > SHOT

>> > > > > > (that they don't make) and slammed it down in front of him.

>> > I

>> > > > didn't

>> > > > > > hear

>> > > > > > another word from him and he avoided me the rest of our

>> > visit.

>> > > > > > Illness is

>> > > > > > very uncommon in our house. All three of my little ones were

>> > > > (the

>> > > > > > youngest

>> > > > > > still is) breastfed, beeing self weaned (so far at around

>> > age

>> > > > two).

>> > > > > > My son

>> > > > > > had his first solid food on his first birthday, my daughter,

>> > at

>> > > > 8

>> > > > > > months and

>> > > > > > my little one, at around 5 months, my son being the

>> > healthiest

>> > > > of

>> > > > > > them all.

>> > > > > > We were told that my son had a double ear infection during

>> > his

>> > > > > > chicken pox

>> > > > > > episode but it was never tested so I don't know for sure if

>> > it

>> > > > > > really was,

>> > > > > > or just inflamation from the sores. I stopped his medication

>> > > > after

>> > > > > > one or

>> > > > > > two doses and later got the comment from the doctor, " Well,

>> > I

>> > > > see

>> > > > > > that the

>> > > > > > antibiotics cleared this right up. " Never told him that we

>> > used

>> > > > the

>> > > > > > garlic

>> > > > > > oil Herbs For Kids remedy. That was our only incidence of

>> > ear

>> > > > > > infections. I

>> > > > > > made my no-vax decision when my son was born. At the time of

>> > his

>> > > > > > appointment, there was a problem with another child getting

>> > his

>> > > > > > shots in

>> > > > > > that office and they had to cancel my appointment. What a

>> > > > blessing!

>> > > > > > After

>> > > > > > that, each time I reluctantly made appointments for his

>> > shots,

>> > > > > > something

>> > > > > > would happen that would cancel it. I started reading every

>> > book

>> > > > on

>> > > > > > the

>> > > > > > subject I could get my hands on and started going to

>> > lectures

>> > > > and

>> > > > > > hearing

>> > > > > > panels of doctors speak on the pro's and con's. Even the pro

>> > > > doctors

>> > > > > > said

>> > > > > > that there was a risk and that it was not right for

>> > everyone.

>> > > > That

>> > > > > > was

>> > > > > > enough for me. Then stories started coming at me, the young

>> > boy

>> > > > in

>> > > > > > our town

>> > > > > > who developed polio from the shot (permanently in a

>> > wheelchair),

>> > > > the

>> > > > > > infant

>> > > > > > son of the General on our base who got all of his shots to

>> > go

>> > > > > > overseas and

>> > > > > > died and few hours later from complications, the " outbreak "

>> > of

>> > > > > > whooping

>> > > > > > cough in the next county where those who were immunized

>> > became

>> > > > much,

>> > > > > > much

>> > > > > > sicker and took so much longer to recover (for some, it was

>> > a

>> > > > year

>> > > > > > compared

>> > > > > > to the month or two months for the unvaccinated ones) than

>> > those

>> > > > who

>> > > > > > were

>> > > > > > not vaccinated. And it just went on and on. Even my mother

>> > now

>> > > > > > regularly

>> > > > > > sends me articles about the latest bad reactions. Beeing

>> > > > seen by

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > military doctors, you get to be exposed to a whole different

>> > > > world

>> > > > > > of guilt

>> > > > > > tactics, propoganda and pressure. If nothing else, it has

>> > given

>> > > > me a

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > wonderful opportuniy to exercise my brain. Now we are back

>> > in

>> > > > the

>> > > > > > civilian

>> > > > > > world and still dealing with the doctors. In general, we

>> > give

>> > > > them

>> > > > > > the " I am

>> > > > > > looking into that, will get back to you " statement. I have

>> > been

>> > > > > > threatened

>> > > > > > with being turned into the state if I did not comply, but

>> > they

>> > > > never

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > followed up on it. I have also been told that the doctors

>> > would

>> > > > not

>> > > > > > see me

>> > > > > > until I had the kid's shot records up to date. My son DID

>> > attend

>> > > > K

>> > > > > > and first

>> > > > > > grade in a public school. The health office asked me a

>> > million

>> > > > and

>> > > > > > one

>> > > > > > questions about my decision and said they were just so

>> > curious,

>> > > > they

>> > > > > > had

>> > > > > > never personally had contact with someone who did not

>> > vaccinate.

>> > > > > > They

>> > > > > > advised me to sign the religious exemption part of the form,

>> > > > saying

>> > > > > > that it

>> > > > > > was just easier than the medical choice because I would have

>> > to

>> > > > show

>> > > > > > proof

>> > > > > > and they followed up on it AND the medical reason would have

>> > to

>> > > > > > continue.

>> > > > > > If, for some reson, the medical threat passed, I would then

>> > have

>> > > > to

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > immunize him. I am considered the stupid black sheep of

>> > the

>> > > > > > family for

>> > > > > > not getting my kids vaxed. My favourite is my husband's

>> > cousin,

>> > > > a

>> > > > > > military

>> > > > > > pediatrician, who he and his wife just had a baby. We were

>> > told,

>> > > > > > through

>> > > > > > family members, that we were not to have contact with them

>> > > > because

>> > > > > > of the

>> > > > > > threat our children posed to his daughter. ???!!!??? Just

>> > the

>> > > > > > other day, I

>> > > > > > got the story of how proud everyone was of the newest baby

>> > in

>> > > > our

>> > > > > > family,

>> > > > > > that she didn't even cry during her shots. I think they

>> > think

>> > > > that

>> > > > > > that is

>> > > > > > why I have made this decision, that I don't want them to cry

>> > > > over a

>> > > > > > shot.

>> > > > > > After all, that is the worst thing that could happen,

>> > right???

>> > > > All

>> > > > > > those

>> > > > > > crazies who don't vaccinate, they just make that stuff up,

>> > > > right???

>> > > > > > Well, have I rambled enough? Plus, my little alarm is going

>> > off.

>> > > > I

>> > > > > > guess she

>> > > > > > feels that my time on the computer is up.

>> > > > > > Thank you all for being and for the wonderful information

>> > you

>> > > > pass

>> > > > > > on.

>> > > > > > Katrina

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > By the way, I happened to grab an old issue of Mothering

>> > > > magazine

>> > > > > > yesterday

>> > > > > > that happened to have an article on Neonatal Jaundice. It

>> > > > mentions

>> > > > > > everything I have been reading on this list regarding

>> > jaundice

>> > > > from

>> > > > > > the

>> > > > > > different types and the treatments to Rh and ABO

>> > > > incompatibilities

>> > > > > > to cord

>> > > > > > clamping. It is found in issue number 24, summer 1982. This

>> > is

>> > > > an

>> > > > > > older

>> > > > > > issue, out of print so if anyone is interested and cannot

>> > get a

>> > > > > > copy, I

>> > > > > > would be happy to pass it along.

>> > > > > >

>> > > >

>> > >

>> >

>> >________________________________________________________________________

>> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>> > > > > > http://www.hotmail.com

>> > > > > >

>> > > >

>> > >

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on

>> > the

>> > > > > > net.

>> > > > > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com

>> > > > Install

>> > > > > > now:

>> > > > > > 1/6346/10/_/489317/_/964464047/

>> > > > > >

>> > > >

>> > >

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > > >

>> > > > >

>> > > >

>> > >________________________________________________________________

>> > > > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

>> > > > >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

>> > > > >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

>> > > > >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

>> > > >

>> > >

>> >

>>________________________________________________________________________

>> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>> > > > http://www.hotmail.com

>> > > >

>> > >

>> > > >

>> > >

>> > > ________________________________________________________________

>> > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

>> > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

>> > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

>> > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

>> > >

>> >

>>

>>________________________________________________________________

>>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

>>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

>>Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

>>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

July 31, 2000

Great idea Sheri

Shelby, PA (southeastern) - knows 3 non-vax supporting doctors

Sheri Nakken wrote:

> Welcome Katrina,

> I think that is the case with most people on the list, just don't think

> about saying where they live. No great coverup.

>

> I'm trying to keep a list of where everyone lists so I can find a resource

> right away in each state. I'd like it if everyone put their first name and

> state in their signature!

> Especially those of you with the same first names - I get so confused which

> or Dawn or Kim it is!

> Sheri

>

> At 03:31 PM 07/31/2000 GMT, you wrote:

> >Whew! Didn't know that my post would stir up so much talk! The reason I

> >didn't mention my location originally was just out of pure mistake. Got lost

> >in my rant, I guess. I spent, well, since my son was born 8 1/2 years ago,

> >as well as the time I was pregnant with him, tiptoeing around doctors and

> >other " legal " people. I avoided taking my children to the doctors many times

> >because of the confrontation I had to deal with. Even though I used to be

> >able to quote figures and statements by all of the major health organiztions

> >and seemed like I really knew what I was talking about, I could quickly be

> >reduced to a whimpering nothing by a doctor, or even the nurses. Like I said

> >before, I was threatened more than once by doctors with being turned in to

> >the state if I did not comply. Also, like I said, they never followed up on

> >me (when I walked out of the office for the last time when switching to my

> >midwife, they never even called to see why I missed my next

> >appointment.....never did hear from them again). Perhaps these people in

> >these positions (working for health departments, schools, etc.) are trained

> >to be intimidating and threatening because they know that many people are

> >not aware of thier legal rights, will succomb to them and perhaps they can

> >snag a few more of us with immunizations, before we find out that we really

> >didn't have to. ???

> >At any rate, as I have gotten older and have learned more and more about the

> >subject AND gotten involved in supportive groups, I feel much more armed

> >when I go to the doctors. Still very uncomfortable, but so much better than

> >in the past. It does help so much when you have others around you that

> >support your beliefs (a very good reason for stating your laocation). I

> >still get paranoid that someone is looking over my shoulder and will " find

> >out " that we don't vaccinate and will start trouble, but I am also more

> >aware of my rights to counter the blows.

> >

> >The internet gives us a certain amount of privacy, and the freedom to speak

> >with a mask on, but it is still quite simple to trace someone, even by thier

> > " handle " . It is good to be safe but I don't think that omiting your location

> >is going to make that much of difference if someone was looking for you.

> >Boy, did I talk in circles on that one!?!

> >Anyway, I am glad to have found you all and love all the info I am gaining!

> >Thank you all!

> >Katrina

> >

> >>From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> >>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

> >>Vaccinationsegroups

> >>Subject: Re: New to the List

> >>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 05:23:12 -0400

> >>

> >>Or how about just walking around with a bag over your head?!

> >>

> >>There are parents who have started organizations and are out in the open

> >>advocating for you. How can you allow them to stand alone when they are

> >>helping you? Silent minorities lose their rights and get wiped out in

> >>htis country. What the hell are you afraid of by speaking your mind and

> >>signing your name to it? If you remain anonymous, then you won't be

> >>counted.

> >>

> >>gary

> >>

> >>On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:43:44 -0700 Levy <1levy1@...> writes:

> >> > Perhaps just stating country or even region (West coast, East coast,

> >> > prairies, etc) would be helpful.

> >> >

> >> > Krasner wrote:

> >> >

> >> > > Katrina,

> >> > >

> >> > > Pardon my tone. It was sort of rhetorical. I was just wondering

> >> > why every

> >> > > " new member intro " always seems to exclude where the people

> >> > actually

> >> > > live. I think it's important most of the time.

> >> > >

> >> > > On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:52:30 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> >> > <katrinaj@...>

> >> > > writes:

> >> > > > Hi ,

> >> > > > At the time, I live in Denver, CO. We just moved here. (Planning

> >> > on

> >> > > > staying). I guess my posts sound all over the place because we

> >> > were!

> >> > > > Having

> >> > > > been military, I have covered a lot of ground. I have dealt with

> >> > a

> >> > > > number of

> >> > > > people (doctors, school health officials, etc.) in a number of

> >> > > > states and

> >> > > > often the issues were never resolved because we left the area. I

> >> > > > guess I am

> >> > > > lucky that I never had to deal with any one doctor for too long

> >> > (in

> >> > > > military

> >> > > > health care, you don't get a choice of doctor and the majority

> >> > of

> >> > > > them are

> >> > > > very pushy, and sometimes rather threatening, about their

> >> > beleifs

> >> > > > over

> >> > > > mine).

> >> > > > Sorry for any confusion. I am still new here and learning the

> >> > ropes

> >> > > > of how

> >> > > > to post. It seems like everyone here already knows each other

> >> > pretty

> >> > > > well. I

> >> > > > guess it will just take me a while.

> >> > > > Katrina

> >> > > > By the way, it was in land that my son attended school.

> >> > > >

> >> > > > >From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> >> > > > >Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

> >> > > > >Vaccinationsegroups

> >> > > > >Subject: Re: New to the List

> >> > > > >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:42:43 -0400

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >does the town you live in have a name? why does every " intro " I

> >> > > > read

> >> > > > >always exclude geography?!

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:40:46 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> >> > > > <katrinaj@...>

> >> > > > >writes:

> >> > > > > > Hello Everyone,

> >> > > > > > I have been so busy reading all of your email that I am just

> >> > now

> >> > > > > > able to

> >> > > > > > take the time to write my " hello, this is me " letter.

> >> > > > > > So here it is. I have three children, ages 8 1/2, 6 1/2 and

> >> > 1

> >> > > > 1/2.

> >> > > > > > They were

> >> > > > > > all born at home, vegetarians (except for my older daughter,

> >> > > > who, if

> >> > > > > > left

> >> > > > > > alone, would eat an entire chicken), homeschooled, and

> >> > raised as

> >> > > > > > much as

> >> > > > > > possible by attachment parenting.(Isn't it sad that they

> >> > have to

> >> > > > > > make up a

> >> > > > > > special term for a special type of parenting that just comes

> >> > > > > > naturally?)

> >> > > > > > None of them are vaccinated. Excepting that my son DID

> >> > receive a

> >> > > > > > tetanus

> >> > > > > > shot in an emergency room visit following an accident. He

> >> > was

> >> > > > hit by

> >> > > > > > a young

> >> > > > > > man on a bicycle and dragged down a paved and graveled road.

> >> > The

> >> > > > > > doctors

> >> > > > > > thought it best that he receive the shot and as they were

> >> > > > getting

> >> > > > > > ready to

> >> > > > > > give it to him, I happened to glance at the bottle on the

> >> > tray

> >> > > > and

> >> > > > > > noticed

> >> > > > > > that it was the combination shot. I pointed this out to the

> >> > > > nurse

> >> > > > > > who jumped

> >> > > > > > back with her needle and asked, " Why, has he had a reaction

> >> > to

> >> > > > this

> >> > > > > > shot

> >> > > > > > before? " I explained the situation and she went off to

> >> > discuss

> >> > > > it

> >> > > > > > with the

> >> > > > > > doctor. He came and, in a nasty tone, began lecturing me and

> >> > > > told me

> >> > > > > > I was

> >> > > > > > wrong, that it was NOT manufactured as a separate shot.

> >> > Another

> >> > > > > > nurse (bless

> >> > > > > > her) came storming over, threw the fridge open, grabbed the

> >> > > > SINGLE

> >> > > > > > SHOT

> >> > > > > > (that they don't make) and slammed it down in front of him.

> >> > I

> >> > > > didn't

> >> > > > > > hear

> >> > > > > > another word from him and he avoided me the rest of our

> >> > visit.

> >> > > > > > Illness is

> >> > > > > > very uncommon in our house. All three of my little ones were

> >> > > > (the

> >> > > > > > youngest

> >> > > > > > still is) breastfed, beeing self weaned (so far at around

> >> > age

> >> > > > two).

> >> > > > > > My son

> >> > > > > > had his first solid food on his first birthday, my daughter,

> >> > at

> >> > > > 8

> >> > > > > > months and

> >> > > > > > my little one, at around 5 months, my son being the

> >> > healthiest

> >> > > > of

> >> > > > > > them all.

> >> > > > > > We were told that my son had a double ear infection during

> >> > his

> >> > > > > > chicken pox

> >> > > > > > episode but it was never tested so I don't know for sure if

> >> > it

> >> > > > > > really was,

> >> > > > > > or just inflamation from the sores. I stopped his medication

> >> > > > after

> >> > > > > > one or

> >> > > > > > two doses and later got the comment from the doctor, " Well,

> >> > I

> >> > > > see

> >> > > > > > that the

> >> > > > > > antibiotics cleared this right up. " Never told him that we

> >> > used

> >> > > > the

> >> > > > > > garlic

> >> > > > > > oil Herbs For Kids remedy. That was our only incidence of

> >> > ear

> >> > > > > > infections. I

> >> > > > > > made my no-vax decision when my son was born. At the time of

> >> > his

> >> > > > > > appointment, there was a problem with another child getting

> >> > his

> >> > > > > > shots in

> >> > > > > > that office and they had to cancel my appointment. What a

> >> > > > blessing!

> >> > > > > > After

> >> > > > > > that, each time I reluctantly made appointments for his

> >> > shots,

> >> > > > > > something

> >> > > > > > would happen that would cancel it. I started reading every

> >> > book

> >> > > > on

> >> > > > > > the

> >> > > > > > subject I could get my hands on and started going to

> >> > lectures

> >> > > > and

> >> > > > > > hearing

> >> > > > > > panels of doctors speak on the pro's and con's. Even the pro

> >> > > > doctors

> >> > > > > > said

> >> > > > > > that there was a risk and that it was not right for

> >> > everyone.

> >> > > > That

> >> > > > > > was

> >> > > > > > enough for me. Then stories started coming at me, the young

> >> > boy

> >> > > > in

> >> > > > > > our town

> >> > > > > > who developed polio from the shot (permanently in a

> >> > wheelchair),

> >> > > > the

> >> > > > > > infant

> >> > > > > > son of the General on our base who got all of his shots to

> >> > go

> >> > > > > > overseas and

> >> > > > > > died and few hours later from complications, the " outbreak "

> >> > of

> >> > > > > > whooping

> >> > > > > > cough in the next county where those who were immunized

> >> > became

> >> > > > much,

> >> > > > > > much

> >> > > > > > sicker and took so much longer to recover (for some, it was

> >> > a

> >> > > > year

> >> > > > > > compared

> >> > > > > > to the month or two months for the unvaccinated ones) than

> >> > those

> >> > > > who

> >> > > > > > were

> >> > > > > > not vaccinated. And it just went on and on. Even my mother

> >> > now

> >> > > > > > regularly

> >> > > > > > sends me articles about the latest bad reactions. Beeing

> >> > > > seen by

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > military doctors, you get to be exposed to a whole different

> >> > > > world

> >> > > > > > of guilt

> >> > > > > > tactics, propoganda and pressure. If nothing else, it has

> >> > given

> >> > > > me a

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > wonderful opportuniy to exercise my brain. Now we are back

> >> > in

> >> > > > the

> >> > > > > > civilian

> >> > > > > > world and still dealing with the doctors. In general, we

> >> > give

> >> > > > them

> >> > > > > > the " I am

> >> > > > > > looking into that, will get back to you " statement. I have

> >> > been

> >> > > > > > threatened

> >> > > > > > with being turned into the state if I did not comply, but

> >> > they

> >> > > > never

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > followed up on it. I have also been told that the doctors

> >> > would

> >> > > > not

> >> > > > > > see me

> >> > > > > > until I had the kid's shot records up to date. My son DID

> >> > attend

> >> > > > K

> >> > > > > > and first

> >> > > > > > grade in a public school. The health office asked me a

> >> > million

> >> > > > and

> >> > > > > > one

> >> > > > > > questions about my decision and said they were just so

> >> > curious,

> >> > > > they

> >> > > > > > had

> >> > > > > > never personally had contact with someone who did not

> >> > vaccinate.

> >> > > > > > They

> >> > > > > > advised me to sign the religious exemption part of the form,

> >> > > > saying

> >> > > > > > that it

> >> > > > > > was just easier than the medical choice because I would have

> >> > to

> >> > > > show

> >> > > > > > proof

> >> > > > > > and they followed up on it AND the medical reason would have

> >> > to

> >> > > > > > continue.

> >> > > > > > If, for some reson, the medical threat passed, I would then

> >> > have

> >> > > > to

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > immunize him. I am considered the stupid black sheep of

> >> > the

> >> > > > > > family for

> >> > > > > > not getting my kids vaxed. My favourite is my husband's

> >> > cousin,

> >> > > > a

> >> > > > > > military

> >> > > > > > pediatrician, who he and his wife just had a baby. We were

> >> > told,

> >> > > > > > through

> >> > > > > > family members, that we were not to have contact with them

> >> > > > because

> >> > > > > > of the

> >> > > > > > threat our children posed to his daughter. ???!!!??? Just

> >> > the

> >> > > > > > other day, I

> >> > > > > > got the story of how proud everyone was of the newest baby

> >> > in

> >> > > > our

> >> > > > > > family,

> >> > > > > > that she didn't even cry during her shots. I think they

> >> > think

> >> > > > that

> >> > > > > > that is

> >> > > > > > why I have made this decision, that I don't want them to cry

> >> > > > over a

> >> > > > > > shot.

> >> > > > > > After all, that is the worst thing that could happen,

> >> > right???

> >> > > > All

> >> > > > > > those

> >> > > > > > crazies who don't vaccinate, they just make that stuff up,

> >> > > > right???

> >> > > > > > Well, have I rambled enough? Plus, my little alarm is going

> >> > off.

> >> > > > I

> >> > > > > > guess she

> >> > > > > > feels that my time on the computer is up.

> >> > > > > > Thank you all for being and for the wonderful information

> >> > you

> >> > > > pass

> >> > > > > > on.

> >> > > > > > Katrina

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > By the way, I happened to grab an old issue of Mothering

> >> > > > magazine

> >> > > > > > yesterday

> >> > > > > > that happened to have an article on Neonatal Jaundice. It

> >> > > > mentions

> >> > > > > > everything I have been reading on this list regarding

> >> > jaundice

> >> > > > from

> >> > > > > > the

> >> > > > > > different types and the treatments to Rh and ABO

> >> > > > incompatibilities

> >> > > > > > to cord

> >> > > > > > clamping. It is found in issue number 24, summer 1982. This

> >> > is

> >> > > > an

> >> > > > > > older

> >> > > > > > issue, out of print so if anyone is interested and cannot

> >> > get a

> >> > > > > > copy, I

> >> > > > > > would be happy to pass it along.

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> >

> >> >________________________________________________________________________

> >> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> >> > > > > > http://www.hotmail.com

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> >

> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> > > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on

> >> > the

> >> > > > > > net.

> >> > > > > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com

> >> > > > Install

> >> > > > > > now:

> >> > > > > > 1/6346/10/_/489317/_/964464047/

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> >

> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >________________________________________________________________

> >> > > > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

> >> > > > >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

> >> > > > >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

> >> > > > >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> >

> >>________________________________________________________________________

> >> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> >> > > > http://www.hotmail.com

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> > > ________________________________________________________________

> >> > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

> >> > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

> >> > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

> >> > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

> >> > >

> >> >

> >>

> >>________________________________________________________________

> >>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

> >>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

> >>Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

> >>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

> DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

> Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

> International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

> Education, Homeopathic Education

> KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

> CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

>

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having power over yourself is an inoculation

against the power of others.

- J. Ehrlich

In this age, which believes that there is a shortcut to

everything, the greatest lesson to be learned is that

the most difficult way is, in the long run, the easiest.

- Henry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 31, 2000

In a message dated 7/31/00 8:59:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, snakken@...

writes:

<< I'd like it if everyone put their first name and

state in their signature! >>

Sara-mom to Nimet/Ohio(outside cleveland)

July 31, 2000

,

Hey...hey buddy. I totally agree with what you are saying but people

have to be ready. In the beginning I was 'terrified' to give any info.

about our family and even still guard an incredible amount. If I am

contacted privately I will offer my telephone number to discuss things

but I don't know everyone on the group. Again, I agree and am not

attacking you but I think that we will attract more people with honey

then vinegar. Let people come on their own time. All we can ask is for

an open mind. If someone is on this list with an open mind then probably

90% of them will come in their own time. Often, I have parents ask

about one vaccine. I provide info. on all of them and in the end almost

all of them contact me later and say they have suspended vaccines or

decided to not vaccinate or selectively vaccinated. Just like I don't

want someone to tell me I have to get vaccines, give my ss# or fill out

the census complete form, etc...I don't want to tell someone else what

they 'have' to do. I do encourage parents to stand up for what they

believe. I explain that the fear that they feel will only expand for

their grandchildren's children unless someone stands up and does

something. That someone takes courage and I try to show that it is that

person. That every person counts. Again, I'm only offering my opinion.

In the beginning I was much more forceful but now I figure that everyone

is entitled to their own opinion including how much they want to

disclose, etc. I always remind parents that together we are a force to

be dealt with...I mean really they can't jail everyone....

The story I often tell (and I know it is not perfectly correct but it

goes something like this). I don't know who wrote (and I don't know I

have it in perfect order...it is the point that is being conveyed)this

but it conveys the point that can be tied to vaccines, voting, speaking

up, anything that takes courage. Here is the story:

During WWII the Nazis came for the Jews and I did nothing. Then the

Nazis came for the Catholics and I did nothing. Then the Nazis came for

Women and I did nothing. Then the Nazis came for me and there was NO ONE

to help me.

You get the picture.. I have heard this quoted often but can't remember

where or who wrote it or even if it is true.

Hope this helps. Let's remember we are all on the same team at a very

minimum....the minimum is that we believe that parents and individuals

should have a choice to vaccinate and that there should be real informed

consent. From there some are true anti-vaccine...some are on the

fence...some are pro-choice publicly but anti-vaccine personally. The

point is if we infight as a group we delay our message from reaching the

public.

Krasner wrote:

>

> Or how about just walking around with a bag over your head?!

>

> There are parents who have started organizations and are out in the open

> advocating for you. How can you allow them to stand alone when they are

> helping you? Silent minorities lose their rights and get wiped out in

> htis country. What the hell are you afraid of by speaking your mind and

> signing your name to it? If you remain anonymous, then you won't be

> counted.

>

> gary

>

> On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:43:44 -0700 Levy <1levy1@...> writes:

> > Perhaps just stating country or even region (West coast, East coast,

> > prairies, etc) would be helpful.

> >

> > Krasner wrote:

> >

> > > Katrina,

> > >

> > > Pardon my tone. It was sort of rhetorical. I was just wondering

> > why every

> > > " new member intro " always seems to exclude where the people

> > actually

> > > live. I think it's important most of the time.

> > >

> > > On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:52:30 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> > <katrinaj@...>

> > > writes:

> > > > Hi ,

> > > > At the time, I live in Denver, CO. We just moved here. (Planning

> > on

> > > > staying). I guess my posts sound all over the place because we

> > were!

> > > > Having

> > > > been military, I have covered a lot of ground. I have dealt with

> > a

> > > > number of

> > > > people (doctors, school health officials, etc.) in a number of

> > > > states and

> > > > often the issues were never resolved because we left the area. I

> > > > guess I am

> > > > lucky that I never had to deal with any one doctor for too long

> > (in

> > > > military

> > > > health care, you don't get a choice of doctor and the majority

> > of

> > > > them are

> > > > very pushy, and sometimes rather threatening, about their

> > beleifs

> > > > over

> > > > mine).

> > > > Sorry for any confusion. I am still new here and learning the

> > ropes

> > > > of how

> > > > to post. It seems like everyone here already knows each other

> > pretty

> > > > well. I

> > > > guess it will just take me a while.

> > > > Katrina

> > > > By the way, it was in land that my son attended school.

> > > >

> > > > >From: Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> > > > >Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

> > > > >Vaccinationsegroups

> > > > >Subject: Re: New to the List

> > > > >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:42:43 -0400

> > > > >

> > > > >does the town you live in have a name? why does every " intro " I

> > > > read

> > > > >always exclude geography?!

> > > > >

> > > > >On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:40:46 GMT " Katrina Cloud "

> > > > <katrinaj@...>

> > > > >writes:

> > > > > > Hello Everyone,

> > > > > > I have been so busy reading all of your email that I am just

> > now

> > > > > > able to

> > > > > > take the time to write my " hello, this is me " letter.

> > > > > > So here it is. I have three children, ages 8 1/2, 6 1/2 and

> > 1

> > > > 1/2.

> > > > > > They were

> > > > > > all born at home, vegetarians (except for my older daughter,

> > > > who, if

> > > > > > left

> > > > > > alone, would eat an entire chicken), homeschooled, and

> > raised as

> > > > > > much as

> > > > > > possible by attachment parenting.(Isn't it sad that they

> > have to

> > > > > > make up a

> > > > > > special term for a special type of parenting that just comes

> > > > > > naturally?)

> > > > > > None of them are vaccinated. Excepting that my son DID

> > receive a

> > > > > > tetanus

> > > > > > shot in an emergency room visit following an accident. He

> > was

> > > > hit by

> > > > > > a young

> > > > > > man on a bicycle and dragged down a paved and graveled road.

> > The

> > > > > > doctors

> > > > > > thought it best that he receive the shot and as they were

> > > > getting

> > > > > > ready to

> > > > > > give it to him, I happened to glance at the bottle on the

> > tray

> > > > and

> > > > > > noticed

> > > > > > that it was the combination shot. I pointed this out to the

> > > > nurse

> > > > > > who jumped

> > > > > > back with her needle and asked, " Why, has he had a reaction

> > to

> > > > this

> > > > > > shot

> > > > > > before? " I explained the situation and she went off to

> > discuss

> > > > it

> > > > > > with the

> > > > > > doctor. He came and, in a nasty tone, began lecturing me and

> > > > told me

> > > > > > I was

> > > > > > wrong, that it was NOT manufactured as a separate shot.

> > Another

> > > > > > nurse (bless

> > > > > > her) came storming over, threw the fridge open, grabbed the

> > > > SINGLE

> > > > > > SHOT

> > > > > > (that they don't make) and slammed it down in front of him.

> > I

> > > > didn't

> > > > > > hear

> > > > > > another word from him and he avoided me the rest of our

> > visit.

> > > > > > Illness is

> > > > > > very uncommon in our house. All three of my little ones were

> > > > (the

> > > > > > youngest

> > > > > > still is) breastfed, beeing self weaned (so far at around

> > age

> > > > two).

> > > > > > My son

> > > > > > had his first solid food on his first birthday, my daughter,

> > at

> > > > 8

> > > > > > months and

> > > > > > my little one, at around 5 months, my son being the

> > healthiest

> > > > of

> > > > > > them all.

> > > > > > We were told that my son had a double ear infection during

> > his

> > > > > > chicken pox

> > > > > > episode but it was never tested so I don't know for sure if

> > it

> > > > > > really was,

> > > > > > or just inflamation from the sores. I stopped his medication

> > > > after

> > > > > > one or

> > > > > > two doses and later got the comment from the doctor, " Well,

> > I

> > > > see

> > > > > > that the

> > > > > > antibiotics cleared this right up. " Never told him that we

> > used

> > > > the

> > > > > > garlic

> > > > > > oil Herbs For Kids remedy. That was our only incidence of

> > ear

> > > > > > infections. I

> > > > > > made my no-vax decision when my son was born. At the time of

> > his

> > > > > > appointment, there was a problem with another child getting

> > his

> > > > > > shots in

> > > > > > that office and they had to cancel my appointment. What a

> > > > blessing!

> > > > > > After

> > > > > > that, each time I reluctantly made appointments for his

> > shots,

> > > > > > something

> > > > > > would happen that would cancel it. I started reading every

> > book

> > > > on

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > subject I could get my hands on and started going to

> > lectures

> > > > and

> > > > > > hearing

> > > > > > panels of doctors speak on the pro's and con's. Even the pro

> > > > doctors

> > > > > > said

> > > > > > that there was a risk and that it was not right for

> > everyone.

> > > > That

> > > > > > was

> > > > > > enough for me. Then stories started coming at me, the young

> > boy

> > > > in

> > > > > > our town

> > > > > > who developed polio from the shot (permanently in a

> > wheelchair),

> > > > the

> > > > > > infant

> > > > > > son of the General on our base who got all of his shots to

> > go

> > > > > > overseas and

> > > > > > died and few hours later from complications, the " outbreak "

> > of

> > > > > > whooping

> > > > > > cough in the next county where those who were immunized

> > became

> > > > much,

> > > > > > much

> > > > > > sicker and took so much longer to recover (for some, it was

> > a

> > > > year

> > > > > > compared

> > > > > > to the month or two months for the unvaccinated ones) than

> > those

> > > > who

> > > > > > were

> > > > > > not vaccinated. And it just went on and on. Even my mother

> > now

> > > > > > regularly

> > > > > > sends me articles about the latest bad reactions. Beeing

> > > > seen by

> > > > > >

> > > > > > military doctors, you get to be exposed to a whole different

> > > > world

> > > > > > of guilt

> > > > > > tactics, propoganda and pressure. If nothing else, it has

> > given

> > > > me a

> > > > > >

> > > > > > wonderful opportuniy to exercise my brain. Now we are back

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > > civilian

> > > > > > world and still dealing with the doctors. In general, we

> > give

> > > > them

> > > > > > the " I am

> > > > > > looking into that, will get back to you " statement. I have

> > been

> > > > > > threatened

> > > > > > with being turned into the state if I did not comply, but

> > they

> > > > never

> > > > > >

> > > > > > followed up on it. I have also been told that the doctors

> > would

> > > > not

> > > > > > see me

> > > > > > until I had the kid's shot records up to date. My son DID

> > attend

> > > > K

> > > > > > and first

> > > > > > grade in a public school. The health office asked me a

> > million

> > > > and

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > questions about my decision and said they were just so

> > curious,

> > > > they

> > > > > > had

> > > > > > never personally had contact with someone who did not

> > vaccinate.

> > > > > > They

> > > > > > advised me to sign the religious exemption part of the form,

> > > > saying

> > > > > > that it

> > > > > > was just easier than the medical choice because I would have

> > to

> > > > show

> > > > > > proof

> > > > > > and they followed up on it AND the medical reason would have

> > to

> > > > > > continue.

> > > > > > If, for some reson, the medical threat passed, I would then

> > have

> > > > to

> > > > > >

> > > > > > immunize him. I am considered the stupid black sheep of

> > the

> > > > > > family for

> > > > > > not getting my kids vaxed. My favourite is my husband's

> > cousin,

> > > > a

> > > > > > military

> > > > > > pediatrician, who he and his wife just had a baby. We were

> > told,

> > > > > > through

> > > > > > family members, that we were not to have contact with them

> > > > because

> > > > > > of the

> > > > > > threat our children posed to his daughter. ???!!!??? Just

> > the

> > > > > > other day, I

> > > > > > got the story of how proud everyone was of the newest baby

> > in

> > > > our

> > > > > > family,

> > > > > > that she didn't even cry during her shots. I think they

> > think

> > > > that

> > > > > > that is

> > > > > > why I have made this decision, that I don't want them to cry

> > > > over a

> > > > > > shot.

> > > > > > After all, that is the worst thing that could happen,

> > right???

> > > > All

> > > > > > those

> > > > > > crazies who don't vaccinate, they just make that stuff up,

> > > > right???

> > > > > > Well, have I rambled enough? Plus, my little alarm is going

> > off.

> > > > I

> > > > > > guess she

> > > > > > feels that my time on the computer is up.

> > > > > > Thank you all for being and for the wonderful information

> > you

> > > > pass

> > > > > > on.

> > > > > > Katrina

> > > > > >

> > > > > > By the way, I happened to grab an old issue of Mothering

> > > > magazine

> > > > > > yesterday

> > > > > > that happened to have an article on Neonatal Jaundice. It

> > > > mentions

> > > > > > everything I have been reading on this list regarding

> > jaundice

> > > > from

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > different types and the treatments to Rh and ABO

> > > > incompatibilities

> > > > > > to cord

> > > > > > clamping. It is found in issue number 24, summer 1982. This

> > is

> > > > an

> > > > > > older

> > > > > > issue, out of print so if anyone is interested and cannot

> > get a

> > > > > > copy, I

> > > > > > would be happy to pass it along.

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

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--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

July 31, 2000

You can never be too careful, especially on lists like this that deal with a

Hot Topic. We have 300+ members, I do not know them all, heck I'm not sure

even if I know half of them. We could have people lurking, I don't know.

If anyone gets out of hand I can remove them.

In the 2 years that this list has been running I have only had to remove one

person, that is pretty good!

List Owner of Vaccinations and Vaccine Info

www.geocities.com/mom2q (my work in progress!)

Mom of two great kids who are vaccine free!