Re: Rationing

January 12, 2010

That's a fantastic site; I wish every American would watch it. We are

following the exact path taken by Rome that lead to its downfall;

Obamacare is only one more [rather large] step.

Precisely speaking you are correct; we don't have a democracy. However,

_generally_ speaking when the government is controlled by the votes of

the citizens it is considered a democracy; as opposed by a dictatorship

where the people have no input.

..

> Posted by: " Crystal " sweetnwright@...

> <mailto:sweetnwright@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> sweetenloe1 <sweetenloe1>

>

> Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:40 pm (PST)

>

> we do not live in a democracy. We are suppose to live in a

> republic!

> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the

> REPUBLIC for which it stands......

> This is the best video I've ever watched that really analyzes different

> forms of government. It will show you that the US is suppose to be

> ruled by

> law.

> <

>

> CW

January 12, 2010

No. I have a " gap " type of plan from my employer, one of the benefits I

worked 37 years to earn. FAIK it may be similar to a medicare advantage

plan because I don't really know exactly what a medicare advantage plan is.

But it is not my gap insurance that causes the problem because they

accept the rulings of Medicare as to what is acceptable and covered.

Generally they pay my deductible, co-pay and a portion of my

prescription costs. All I have to pay is a portion of my prescription

costs [which is quite a bit]. For me Medicare is great, and I paid into

it all the years I worked since its inception. Still I suspect it is a

horrible plan for the country over all, as I don't think it is fiscally

viable long term.

Regards,

..

>

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

> <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:31 pm (PST)

>

> something has occurred to me. Do you have a medicare advantage plan?

>

> Roni

> <>Just because something

> isn't seen doesn't mean it's

> not there<>

>

> From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>>

> Subject: Re: Rationing

> hypothyroidism

> <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>

> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 8:58 PM

>

> Nancie, I cannot understand how your experience could be so different

> from that of, say, my allergy specialist. He showed me the letters he

> received objecting to the treatment he provided, and told me how much

> time he and his staff had to expend to get it approved. It was a most

> impressive stack of paper. Further he stated that for him it is

> epidemic now, but will get much worse if Obamacare becomes law. And the

> treatment provided was basically totally conventional; nothing

> alternative or weird.

January 12, 2010

Good luck on That idea. The congress can't even agree on one system, let alone

two.

Dreaming is good though, keep it up.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

>> that is YOUR OPINION. NOT MINE at all. I have professional colleagues who

have personally worked on the bills in both houses and thus I know what is

REALLY going on. Since they are medical providers with political connections

they were asked to help create the Bills. To do nothing is stupid and

incomprehensible and amoral and unethical. 1000's of people die every year from

lack of health insurance. how can you deny them the RIGHT to have health

insurance and the RIGHT to be able to get medical care when they are sick.

>> The insurance companies have to be reigned in on their daily abuses to people

who have coverage and to those who can't get coverage.

>> If you don't Governmental health care then you better not use any Medicare

benefits otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

>>

>> From:

>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:17 AM

>> hypothyroidism

>> Subject: Re: Rationing

>>

>> The bottom line is you're going to face massive rationing IN SOME MANNER

>> or massive increases in taxes; whether you call it a " death panel " or

>> something else won't really matter to the person suffering or dying due

>> to lack of treatment.

>>

>> .

>>

>>>

>>> Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@...

>>> <mailto:deifspirit@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

>>> aspenfairy1<aspenfairy1>

>>>

>>> Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:38 am (PST)

>>>

>>> -

>>> there are NO " death panels in the bill and there wasn't ever any death

>>> panels in the bill. that is just another republican LIE .

>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

" The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you

run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher

" Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism "

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

------------------------------------

January 12, 2010

I believe it is called a republic because we elect representatives to do our

voting for us, as opposed to voting for everything directly.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: <res075oh@...>

Subject: Re: Rationing

hypothyroidism

Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 10:01 AM

That's a fantastic site; I wish every American would watch it. We are

following the exact path taken by Rome that lead to its downfall;

Obamacare is only one more [rather large] step.

Precisely speaking you are correct; we don't have a democracy. However,

_generally_ speaking when the government is controlled by the votes of

the citizens it is considered a democracy; as opposed by a dictatorship

where the people have no input.

..

> Posted by: " Crystal " sweetnwright@...

> <mailto:sweetnwright@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> sweetenloe1 <sweetenloe1>

>

> Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:40 pm (PST)

>

> we do not live in a democracy. We are suppose to live in a

> republic!

> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the

> REPUBLIC for which it stands......

> This is the best video I've ever watched that really analyzes different

> forms of government. It will show you that the US is suppose to be

> ruled by

> law.

> <

>

> CW

------------------------------------

January 12, 2010

Steve, I don't think the draft exists anymore???

..

>

> Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@...

> <mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> dudescholar <dudescholar>

>

> Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:59 pm (PST)

>

> The republic is gone so there can be no allegiances pledged. But you do

> get to get drafted and fight as many Vietnams as war profits require.

>

> Steve

January 12, 2010

, you are right.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: <res075oh@...>

Subject: Re: Rationing

hypothyroidism

Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:04 AM

Steve, I don't think the draft exists anymore???

..

>

> Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@...

> <mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> dudescholar <dudescholar>

>

> Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:59 pm (PST)

>

> The republic is gone so there can be no allegiances pledged. But you do

> get to get drafted and fight as many Vietnams as war profits require.

>

> Steve

------------------------------------

January 12, 2010

I have real Medicare and a Plan J medigap policy. It does not pay for

prescriptions, but it picks up what medicare doesn't pay. I buy a Part D Rx

plan, but don't have many rxs, so most of the stuff I get is generic and only a

fe meds. The Advantage plans are cheaper and some have more peripheral stuff,

but I'm not sure how long they are going to stick around.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

>

> From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>>

> Subject: Re: Rationing

> hypothyroidism

> <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>

> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 8:58 PM

>

> Nancie, I cannot understand how your experience could be so different

> from that of, say, my allergy specialist. He showed me the letters he

> received objecting to the treatment he provided, and told me how much

> time he and his staff had to expend to get it approved. It was a most

> impressive stack of paper. Further he stated that for him it is

> epidemic now, but will get much worse if Obamacare becomes law. And the

> treatment provided was basically totally conventional; nothing

> alternative or weird.

------------------------------------

January 12, 2010

The problem with that idea is that everyone gets sick at one time or another. If

something catastrophic happens, as it does so often, who is supposed to pay for

that healthcare? You are certainly not going to do it, nor am I.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

> Medicare is a GOVERNMENT run healthcare program ergo socialized medicine and

since you hate socialized medicine and you don't support any public option aka

Medicare for all then one would assume that you don't believe in or accept a

Governmental Healthcare program such as Medicare.

>

> From:

> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:16 AM

> hypothyroidism ; JAMES

> Subject: Re: Rationing

>

> Nancie, your argument is flawed. Medicare and social security benefit

> me greatly. I seriously question whether either of them are good FOR

> THE COUNTRY long term. And it is FOR THE GOOD OF ALL CITIZENS OF THE

> COUNTRY that I present my arguments; _not_ for what I think will benefit

> me or some other individual. I paid into those systems for 37 years to

> whatever extent that was required to earn the benefits I receive. No

> hypocrisy here.

>

> Where is the " RIGHT " to have medical insurance written??? What other

> RIGHTS do we have to access the results of the work of others? Food?

> Clothing? Shelter? A new car every year? What is the basis of the

> RIGHTS you quote??? If I choose to sit on my @$$ while you spend your

> life in productive labor what RIGHT do I have to demand that you provide

> me what I would like to have?

>

> Okay; so you're a liberal which means you will have a different answer

> to that question that I will give. As a conservative I suggest I have

> NO RIGHTS to the results of your labor. If I am destitute and in need

> your efforts to help me are not because I have some RIGHT to your

> resources/money/help; but rather because you see it as

> moral/religious/other imperative. But NEVER because I have the RIGHT to

> demand such from you.

>

> .

>

>>

>> Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@...

>> <mailto:deifspirit@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

>> aspenfairy1<aspenfairy1>

>>

>> Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:04 pm (PST)

>>

>> that is YOUR OPINION. NOT MINE at all. I have professional colleagues

>> who have personally worked on the bills in both houses and thus I know

>> what is REALLY going on. Since they are medical providers with

>> political connections they were asked to help create the Bills. To do

>> nothing is stupid and incomprehensible and amoral and unethical.

>> 1000's of people die every year from lack of health insurance. how can

>> you deny them the RIGHT to have health insurance and the RIGHT to be

>> able to get medical care when they are sick.

>> The insurance companies have to be reigned in on their daily abuses to

>> people who have coverage and to those who can't get coverage.

>> If you don't Governmental health care then you better not use any

>> Medicare benefits otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

>>

>> From:

>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:17 AM

>> hypothyroidism

>> <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>

>> Subject: Re: Rationing

>>

>> The bottom line is you're going to face massive rationing IN SOME MANNER

>> or massive increases in taxes; whether you call it a " death panel " or

>> something else won't really matter to the person suffering or dying due

>> to lack of treatment.

>>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

" The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you

run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher

" Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism "

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

------------------------------------

January 12, 2010

Steve, good roads, good schools, good bridges, good communication, good airports

and planes, and cars and food and hospitals and education are all basics, and

require taxes. You are just not looking at the big picture. I realize that

coming from Utah it's hard to imagine the scope of what is really necessary to

the vast majority of the population, and what their situations really are, in

contrast to your own.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

>

> From: <res075oh@...>

> Subject: Re: Rationing

> hypothyroidism

> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 9:19 PM

>

> It is the theories of socialism that have failed. Even when the

> government assumed and applied the " right " to murder millions of their

> own citizens they still failed.

>

> Democracy will fail too, I'm afraid. When those who do not produce find

> out they can vote themselves an ever greater share of the income of

> those who do produce a point will be reached that those who do produce

> will be reduced beyond that necessary to support the society. At that

> point it will collapse. Most likely a dictator will then take over by

> promising to take care of everyone's needs and so many will naively

> follow that it becomes possible.

>

> Obamacare is just one of many steps in that direction. Free medical

> care for everyone, and no costs involved. How could anyone be so foolish...

>

> .

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

" The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you

run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher

" Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism "

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

------------------------------------

January 12, 2010

Roni, the Congressional Budget reported that the top 5% of earners in

the US pay 50% of all taxes. Do you not call that giving back? The

bottom 50% pay virtually no income tax. It's old data but I doubt it's

changed much:

..

> Below is an analysis of Congressional Budget Office (CB0) report

> entitled " Preliminary Estimates of Effective Tax Rates " (07-Sep-1999).

> The raw numbers can be scrutinized here:

>

> http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1545 & from=4 & sequence=0

> <http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1545 & from=4 & sequence=0>

>

> All I did was try to make heads or tails of the data by plotting it

> and extracting the most salient data. The /*Income* Tax Burden/ is

> defined simply as who pays *U.S*. *income* *taxes* in the form of

> individual and corporate *income* *taxes*, payroll *taxes*, and

> federal excise *taxes*. Based on this information, the following

> conclusions clearly emerge:

>

> * An enormous percentage of *taxes* are payed by a minority of

> Americans:

> o The *Top* 1% of *taxpayers* *pay* 29% of all *taxes*.

> o The *Top* 5% of *taxpayers* *pay* 50% of all *taxes*.

> * Our tax system is not so much progressive as it is confiscatory

> -- Frederic Bastiat called this phenomenon " legal plunder

>

<http://users.netonecom.net/%7Egwood/TLP/ref/the-law1.htm#Property%20and%20Plund\

er>. "

> A */progressive tax/* is based on the premise that those with

> more *income* can afford to *pay* more *taxes*, and conversely,

> those with little or no *income* should *pay* no tax. However, a

> quick look at Graph 1A below shows that the *U.S*. tax system

> has become far beyond progressive. Fully half the *taxpayers*

> contribute almost nothing in individual *income* *taxes*.

> * The *Top* 1% of *income* earners (comprising about 1 million

> families) earn about 15% of the total *income* earned by all

> wage earners in the United States, yet *_they *pay* almost 30%

> of all individual *income* *taxes*_*.

> * Furthermore, the *Top* 1% are shouldering a roughly 50% higher

> proportion of the overall *income* tax burden than they did in 1977.

> * The argument most oft used against tax breaks are that they

> benefit only the wealthy. It is clear from even a cursory look

> at the numbers below that *_the 'wealthy' will receive the

> majority of any *income* tax reduction because they *pay* a

> disproportionately huge percentage of the *income* *taxes*!_* To

> structure a tax break such that those in upper *income* brackets

> are excluded would constitute nothing more than transfer of

> wealth from those who have it to those who don't (i.e. legal

> plunder.)

>

..

I'm sure Steve earns as much in a week or a month than I do all year.

He probably also contributes more to the general fund than I do.

Regards,

..

>

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

> <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:17 am (PST)

>

> Steve, I'm glad your planning has worked out for you. I'm glad you

> haven't be sideswiped by illness, injury or financial bad fortune. I'm

> glad you have lots of money. All that being said, if you live in a

> society and enjoy the fruits of that society, then it would seem to me

> that you would feel an obligation to give back some to the society,

> instead of just taking from it.

> There are people who have jobs that are essential for your lifestyle

> that pay them small wages with no benefits, from whom you are able to

> live and plan and do your thing. Not every one is on top, there have

> to be people working at all levels. I don't see that you acknowledge

> their input into your comfortable life, nor care whether they can at

> least live at their own level. You don't want them to have a decent

> minimum wage, or health care.

>

> I hope you are just speaking rhetorically when you talk about the

> socialists, democrats, republicans that you discuss. The reason

> everything goes up is because the ones that have it are busy keeping

> it and engaged in getting more, and refuse to give up a little for the

> others. You have not clue what slavery is, and yet you feel justified

> in bristling about it.

>

> Roni

January 12, 2010

Then it should be one h*ll of a massive red flag to anyone with that

knowledge to know that the AMA and big pharma are firmly on board

promoting Obamacare. Why do you think that is???

..

>

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

> <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rationing>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:19 am (PST)

>

> I am well aware of the role and practices of the AMA since Rockefeller

> brought it into existence. I know full well that they are the reason

> for big fees, big pharma, crooked incompetent doctors and hospitals

> and greedy, nefarious insurance companies.

>

> Roni

> <>Just because something

> isn't seen doesn't mean it's

> not there<>

>

> > It's a major factor because the AMA refuses to police the doctors

> and hospitals that should truly be thrown out. The insurance companies

> know there are bad doctors and hospitals, and know that because they

> are still practicing they will end up paying for huge law suits for

> their blunders. THAT'S why it's such a major factor. If the government

> or the insurance companies would get the bad apples out of there, a

> huge amount of money could be saved and maybe the insurance companies

> would lower their premiums.

> >

> > Roni

January 12, 2010

That sounds off to me. Shouldn't the top 5% of earners pay 95% of the taxes? If

they're earning so much more than everyone else it is only reasonable that they

should pay more.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: <res075oh@...>

Subject: Re: Rationing

hypothyroidism

Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 1:30 PM

Roni, the Congressional Budget reported that the top 5% of earners in

the US pay 50% of all taxes. Do you not call that giving back? The

bottom 50% pay virtually no income tax. It's old data but I doubt it's

changed much:

..

> Below is an analysis of Congressional Budget Office (CB0) report

> entitled " Preliminary Estimates of Effective Tax Rates " (07-Sep-1999).

> The raw numbers can be scrutinized here:

>

> http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1545 & from=4 & sequence=0

> <http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1545 & from=4 & sequence=0>

>

> All I did was try to make heads or tails of the data by plotting it

> and extracting the most salient data. The /*Income* Tax Burden/ is

> defined simply as who pays *U.S*. *income* *taxes* in the form of

> individual and corporate *income* *taxes*, payroll *taxes*, and

> federal excise *taxes*. Based on this information, the following

> conclusions clearly emerge:

>

> * An enormous percentage of *taxes* are payed by a minority of

> Americans:

> o The *Top* 1% of *taxpayers* *pay* 29% of all *taxes*.

> o The *Top* 5% of *taxpayers* *pay* 50% of all *taxes*.

> * Our tax system is not so much progressive as it is confiscatory

> -- Frederic Bastiat called this phenomenon " legal plunder

>

<http://users.netonecom.net/%7Egwood/TLP/ref/the-law1.htm#Property%20and%20Pl\

under>. "