Re: Another newbie introduction

[Guest guest]

That is ridiculous!

Your blood pressue is excellent!

What kind of a doctor are you going to?????

Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...> wrote:

My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

at 116/67. According to some new guideline, the systolic

is supposed to be under 115. I feel like crap when it is that

low. The heaping dose of toprol (100 mg) and lisinopril (20 mg)

brought my BP to that low state. What really torques me off

is that they chose to use the *new* guidelines for BP, but not

TSH, and have me on enough toprol to induce some hypoT

symptoms.

> >

> > In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

> > I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

> > pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

> > seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

> > be at odds with each other.

>

> Beta blockers only treat some of the symptoms of hyperT. Since you did

> not seem to have high blood pressure or hyperT, what exactly is the beta

> blocker for?

>

> Armour should not grossly increase blood pressure in conflict with a

> beta blocker. What you reported was an unusually low blood pressure,

> which seemed to become closer to " normal " on Armour. I would therefore

> describe the thyroid medication as restoring normalcy, rather than

> fighting your beta blocker.

>

> > I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

> > night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

> > melatonin production.

>

> Another excellent call by your endo. Trust him rather than me.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Venizia,

You wrote:

>

> This statement Really surprises me because last year when my knew

> doctor started me out on 6grains everyone or most here said that my

> doctor was being irresponsible by doing so. What changed in the last

> year.

Nothing. Six grains is TRIPLE the manufacturer recommended full

replacement dose and DOUBLE the maximum the manufacturer says should

EVER be taken, even though some people report doing well with more than

3 grains.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Exactly what I thought!!!

Bbircie@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/5/2008 9:04:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

mlawson66@... writes:

>My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

>at 116/67.

I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

Just my $.02.

BarbF

**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch " Cooking with

Tyler Florence " on AOL Food.

(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? & NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

[Guest guest]

> Shiela,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > The usual starting doses recommended by several doctors who treat

all the time using Armour is 15mgs (quarter grain) for those who have a

heart problem, and 30 of 60mgs for those who do not....

>

> That is consistent with the recommendations of the manufacturer,

Forest Pharmaceuticals: http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf

<http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf>

>

> However, Mike did not mention that he had a cardiac condition, and a

very recent dosing recommendation (Gursoy A, et. al. " Which

thyroid-stimulating hormone level should be sought in hypothyroid

patients under L-thyroxine replacement therapy? " Int J Clin Pract. 2006

Jun;60(6):655-9) said that it is safe for patients without cardiac

involvement to go directly to a full replacement dose and adjust from

there, rather than follow the gradual titration approach.

I know Mike did not mention heart problems, that was just me pointing

out that ANYBODY with heart problems should be started with 15mgs and

then slowly increase by another quarter of a grain. No matter who or how

many doctors state that patients can go directly onto a full replacement

dose of Armour, there are as many doctors, if not more, saying that to

be on the safe side so you do not experience adverse effects, the

starting dose should be half to 1 grain (30mgs to 60mgs) and stay on

that for 7 days and increase again by another half grain, and then stay

on that for 3 to 4 weeks before increasing again. For anybody to start

with 2 grains daily when you have never had T3 before could cause very

frightening symptoms and probably put them off Armour for life. Those

especially who have untreated low adrenal reserve, low ferritin, candida

albicans or other thyroid associated condition would find it impossible

to start on Armour at all, until these conditions were treated.

> Forest also says that the maximum dose is 3 grains (180 mg). >However,

many on this list take more than that, up to 6 grains, >IIRC. Forest

also says that a full replacement dose (depending on >weight) should be

in the neighborhood of 120 mg (2 grains), which is why I previously told

Janelle that her dose of 60 mg seemed low.

Absolutely

> > ... For those who have been taking levothyroxine only and it has not

worked for them (usually because they cannot convert it to the

hormones, T3, T2, T1.

> Again, T2 and T1 are not active. I would agree with the need for

caution

> in this case, but it is because the old T4 dose stays in the system

for

> a long time, with a half life of about a week. Switching from T4 only

to

> a T3 mix would be a condition for which very gradual increases would

> make sense, especially if the T4 dose had been extra high attempting

to

> make it work. However, Mike did not indicate he was doing that,

either.

I agree with this, but I would NEVER recommend that a patient be started

on 2 grains of Armour as a starting dose. We are all individuals, and

the dose each of us eventually needs does vary. I know quite a few who

are on 6 grains, but the average dose seems to be around 2 1/2 to 3

grains. If I try to go above 3, I get the adverse effects.

Forest pharmaceuticals are the manufacturers, and they recommend

basically what I have said. Nowhere do they suggest that a patient be

started on 2 grains of Armour. Doctors over the years who have been

treating with thyroid extract , have experience of all the problems

associated with starting on large doses

T2(or 3, 5-diiodo-l-thyronine)and T1 DO have hormonal activity and T2 is

very active in its metabolic effects. More research and studies show

this to be the case.

> > ... It is best to increase either Armour or synthetic T3 slowly, and

to split both into taking twice a day because of the short half life of

T3 (around 6 to 8 hours)...

>

> I agree with the split dose, but the half life of T3 is 24 hours, not

6-8.

Okidoki - but after 6 to 8 hours, there is so little T3 circulating the

effect is negligible. But, let's not nitpick. You take Armour at

8.00a.m. and by 3.00p.m. some of us start to feel pretty shattered,

taking the Armour or T3 around that time helps keep us 'boosted and

stops that awful afternoon slump

>

> > It is usually recommended to increase by half a grain .. .(30mgs) .

.. .every 3 to 4 weeks until you find the dose that keeps you well.

> The manufacturer says every 2-3 weeks but in increments of 15 mg.

That is the manufacturer erring on the side of caution. Manufacturers

have to play 'safe' in ALL their recommendations. One size, as we keep

being told, does not fit all and we should always remember this.

> Where are you getting your " usual " recommendations?

From many doctors who use natural thyroid hormones throughout the world,

and who are extremely experienced in using it, including Dr Barry

Durrant-Peatfield, Dr.Gordon Skinner, Dr Teitelbaum, Dr.

Lowe, Dr. Theodore Friedman, Dr.Thierry Hertoghe to name just a few.

> Doctors who ignore manufacturers' recommendations risk lawsuits.

I have never heard of a doctor who ignored the 'manufacturers'

recommendation' having a lawsuit brought against them - at least, not

for prescribing Armour anyway. Even though doctors take account of the

manufacturers recommendation, they prescribe using their own

discretion...or, at least, I'm guessing they do.

Sheila

[Guest guest]

Chuck-- Do you have anymore information or a link for me re: dosing

armour in light of weight?

I've been trying to figure this out since I'm short and thin, but

haven't had any luck yet.

Thank you!

Heidi

> Forest also says that the maximum dose is 3 grains (180 mg). However,

> many on this list take more than that, up to 6 grains, IIRC. Forest

also

> says that a full replacement dose (depending on weight) should be in

the

> neighborhood of 120 mg (2 grains), which is why I previously told

> Janelle that her dose of 60 mg seemed low.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, my BP was 124/76 this morning so I increased to 30 mg.

I feel great!

As for having a heart condition, I do have a little bit of

hypertension, especially after 3 pots of coffee, which

used to be my normal state of being! I think the ticker

is fine because I spin an elliptical trainer for an hour

at a time, 3-5 times a week, and can't get my pulse

over 136 for love or money. Probably over medicated.

As for over-prescribing BP and cholesterol drugs, can

you believe that I'm supposed to be taking a statin

with my cholesterol numbers?

Total 147 - HDL 21 - LDL 61

At one point I might have been over 200 total, but

that was a long time ago. I've cleaned up my act since

then. I just quit taking that stuff a long time ago. It was

giving me muscle cramps.

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the info.

you wrote:

>

> Exactly what I thought!!!

>

>

>

> mlawson66@... writes:

>

> >My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

> >at 116/67.

>

> I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

> drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

> sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

> And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

> Just my $.02.

> BarbF

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My resting heart rate is 46 to 48 and I exercise 5 days a week for 1.5 hours a

day and I can't get my heart rate over 135 or 136 either!

My bp is normally 107/60 and I noticed today it is up to 114/67....I started

taking Armour almost two weeks ago....

I guess it is the medication.....I do not like coffee and never drink

caffeine!

Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...> wrote:

Well, my BP was 124/76 this morning so I increased to 30 mg.

I feel great!

As for having a heart condition, I do have a little bit of

hypertension, especially after 3 pots of coffee, which

used to be my normal state of being! I think the ticker

is fine because I spin an elliptical trainer for an hour

at a time, 3-5 times a week, and can't get my pulse

over 136 for love or money. Probably over medicated.

As for over-prescribing BP and cholesterol drugs, can

you believe that I'm supposed to be taking a statin

with my cholesterol numbers?

Total 147 - HDL 21 - LDL 61

At one point I might have been over 200 total, but

that was a long time ago. I've cleaned up my act since

then. I just quit taking that stuff a long time ago. It was

giving me muscle cramps.

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the info.

you wrote:

>

> Exactly what I thought!!!

>

>

>

> mlawson66@... writes:

>

> >My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

> >at 116/67.

>

> I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

> drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

> sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

> And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

> Just my $.02.

> BarbF

[Guest guest]

you should dose by symptoms; not weight. start with 60 mg or 1 grain and titrate

up from there. you might need to hold your dose increases for 4-6 weeks each

time; depending on how sensitive you are to the increases.

if you get heart palps- you can either take a low dose of iodine [ if you don't

Hashi's or are allergic to iodine] or take magnesium to calm the heart as you

adjust the armour. that is what I tell my patients and that is what my natural

medicine MD tells me and her patients. she also takes armour herself at 5

grains.

nancie

From: htbacon

Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:37 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Another newbie introduction

Chuck-- Do you have anymore information or a link for me re: dosing

armour in light of weight?

I've been trying to figure this out since I'm short and thin, but

haven't had any luck yet.

Thank you!

Heidi

> Forest also says that the maximum dose is 3 grains (180 mg). However,

> many on this list take more than that, up to 6 grains, IIRC. Forest

also

> says that a full replacement dose (depending on weight) should be in

the

> neighborhood of 120 mg (2 grains), which is why I previously told

> Janelle that her dose of 60 mg seemed low.

>

>

[Guest guest]

be happy that you have a healthy heart. your exercise conditioning has paid off.

I wouldn't worry about your BP; our BP's are always fluctuating depending on

what you ate; what time if day; exercise etc.

it is more worrisome if you have repeated elevated readings on 3 separate days

at different times of the day. that tells us that you may have a problem. the

pre-hypertension level is 120-139 for systolic and 80-9- for the diastolic

number. above that you are now considered to have hypertension.

From: B

Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:04 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Another newbie introduction

Hi,

My resting heart rate is 46 to 48 and I exercise 5 days a week for 1.5 hours a

day and I can't get my heart rate over 135 or 136 either!

My bp is normally 107/60 and I noticed today it is up to 114/67....I started

taking Armour almost two weeks ago....

I guess it is the medication.....I do not like coffee and never drink caffeine!

Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...> wrote:

Well, my BP was 124/76 this morning so I increased to 30 mg.

I feel great!

As for having a heart condition, I do have a little bit of

hypertension, especially after 3 pots of coffee, which

used to be my normal state of being! I think the ticker

is fine because I spin an elliptical trainer for an hour

at a time, 3-5 times a week, and can't get my pulse

over 136 for love or money. Probably over medicated.

As for over-prescribing BP and cholesterol drugs, can

you believe that I'm supposed to be taking a statin

with my cholesterol numbers?

Total 147 - HDL 21 - LDL 61

At one point I might have been over 200 total, but

that was a long time ago. I've cleaned up my act since

then. I just quit taking that stuff a long time ago. It was

giving me muscle cramps.

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the info.

you wrote:

>

> Exactly what I thought!!!

>

>

>

> mlawson66@... writes:

>

> >My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

> >at 116/67.

>

> I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

> drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

> sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

> And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

> Just my $.02.

> BarbF

[Guest guest]

yes, I agree, your provider needs to go back to school or attend a cme to

reeducate he/she. that is wonderful BP. some of my patients would " kill " for

that reading, LOL

nancie

From: Mike Lawson

Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:55 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Another newbie introduction

Thanks Barb!

> >My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

> >at 116/67.

>

> I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

> drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

> sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

> And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

> Just my $.02.

> BarbF

[Guest guest]

> My resting heart rate is 46 to 48 and I exercise 5 days a week for 1.5 hours

a day and I

can't get my heart rate over 135 or 136 either!

Yeah, mine was 54-60 before Armour. We are going to try to start back bicycle

commuting this summer, starting with about 12 mile one ways with about 1500 ft

elevation gain. When we were doing that before, my resting heart rate was down

around 45-50. I would get the funniest looks from the nurses when they took my

BP.

> My bp is normally 107/60 and I noticed today it is up to 114/67....I started

taking

Armour almost two weeks ago....

I am at about 2 weeks and it went from 116/67 to 124/80-something. I can't

remember

now. I did just increase the dose to 30 mg. Hopefully, in 2 weeks it will still

be below 130

systolic.

> I guess it is the medication.....I do not like coffee and never drink

caffeine!

That's great! You probably still have adrenal glands. I'm expecting that they

will report

that I've got smoldering craters where mine ought to be.

I've started weening myself off the caffeine, Armour does the trick for me. I

just wish

that my doctor would have started treatment a long time ago.

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

You wrote:

>

> ... T2(or 3, 5-diiodo-l-thyronine)and T1 DO have hormonal activity and T2 is

> very active in its metabolic effects. More research and studies show

> this to be the case....

Again, if there is research that shows this, please give us a citation.

Here are three recent papers that show that T2's main area of activity

is in liver oxygen use and in brown adipose tissue. It compares with T3

in these areas only because T3 is relatively inactive there.

Ball SG, Sokolov J, Chin W. 3,5-Diiodo-L-thyronine (T2) has selective

thyromimetic effects in vivo and in vitro. J Mol Endocrinol 1997;19:137-147.

Lanni A, Moreno M, Lombardi A, Goglia F. Calorigenic effect of

diiodothyronines in the rat. J Physiol (Lond) 1996;494:831-837.

Horst C, Rokos H, Seitz HJ. Rapid stimulation of hepatic oxygen

consumption by 3,5-di-iodo-L-thyronine. Biochem J 1989;261:945-950.

These are hardly magical effects. And again, even if T2 were more active

than T3 in something, the trace amount in Armour could hardly compete

with all that is made naturally by deiodization of T3 and RT3.

>

> Okidoki - but after 6 to 8 hours, there is so little T3 circulating the

> effect is negligible....

If the half life is 24 hours, then after 8 hours you will have 1/2^0.33

or about 80% left. With Armour, at least part of what is lost in that

time is replaced by T4 to T3 conversion, so the actual fluctuation in

that time is less than 10%. That is still enough to make a perceived

difference, but it is hardly negligible. OTOH, if you are taking pure

T3, you will suffer the full 20% drop in 8 hours.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

You wrote:

>

> Chuck-- Do you have anymore information or a link for me re: dosing

> armour in light of weight?

You can get a rough idea of how it varies from the guidelines from

Abbott Labs for T4 (Synthroid). They say that for an adult, the usual

full replacement dose is 1.7 mcg/kg of weight/day. For the elderly, this

could be reduced to as low as 1 mcg/kg/day.

Each grain of Armour (60 mg) is roughly equivalent to 100 mcg of T4, so

the full replacement would translate to 1 mg/kg/day. However, this would

translate to only one grain for a 60 kg person. They say the usual

replacement dose will be 1-2 grains, which is in the same ballpark.

The reason Forest Pharmaceuticals does not give a per kilogram dosing

guideline (at least for adults) is to emphasize the fact that individual

responses to T3 will vary far more than the effect of body mass,

although that effect is still there. The guideline instead calls for

individualization of dosage based on symptom response or lab results.

They do give a per kg dose for children at 1.2-1.8 mg/kg/day for those

over 12 years of age and even higher for the younger ones (4.8-6

mg/kg/day for infants). That is also consistent with about 1 mg/kg/day

for adults.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

The usual suspects may well have approved of your doctor starting you at

200% of the maximum dosage recommended by the manufacturer; but

certainly not all of us.

Given that they would make twice as many in sales if everyone went to 6

grains there's probably a darned good reason the manufacturer recommends

no more than 3 grains.

>

> Re: Another newbie introduction

>

<hypothyroidism/message/38948;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOTM0cjh\

uBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzg5NDgEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjc4MjcyMA-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " venizia1948 " nelsonck@...

>

<mailto:nelsonck@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Another%20newbie%20introductio\

n>

> venizia1948 <venizia1948>

>

>

> Fri Jun 6, 2008 8:39 am (PDT)

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> > H Int J Clin Pract. 2006

> > Jun;60(6):655-9) said that it is safe for patients without cardiac

> > involvement to go directly to a full replacement dose and adjust from

> > there, rather than follow the gradual titration approach.

> >

> >This statement Really surprises me because last year when my new

> doctor started me out on 6 grains everyone or most here said that my

> doctor was being irresponsible by doing so. What changed in the last

> year.

>

> Venizia

[Guest guest]

Very interesting post. I would point out though that Chuck is not

" nitpicking " . If the half life of T3 is 24 hours then 24 hours after

you take a dose you still have 50% of it in your system. And at 48

hours you probably have 25% of it still in your system [assuming a

linear curve]. And at 6 hours you have 75%.

And don't forget that after 24 hours you take a second dose [100%],

which when added to the 50% residual gives you 150% of the original

dosage. So at 6 hours from the second dose you would still have well

over 100% of the original dose.

Now, on the third day you still have 75% of the amount of the original

dose in your system and you add 100% more, for 175% of your original

dose... Hmmm, this is starting to look like a calculus problem! [ggg]

Regards,

> > I agree with the split dose, but the half life of T3 is 24 hours, not

> 6-8.

>

> Okidoki - but after 6 to 8 hours, there is so little T3 circulating the

> effect is negligible. But, let's not nitpick. You take Armour at

> 8.00a.m. and by 3.00p.m. some of us start to feel pretty shattered,

> taking the Armour or T3 around that time helps keep us 'boosted and

> stops that awful afternoon slump

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

>

> ... Now, on the third day you still have 75% of the amount of the original

> dose in your system and you add 100% more, for 175% of your original

> dose... Hmmm, this is starting to look like a calculus problem!

Indeed, that is why the replacement dose is sometimes also called a

" maintenance " dose. You take several weeks to build up to the asymptotic

value, which the continued daily dose maintains. That makes the

variation between twice daily doses even less than 10%.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Armour at the right dose should lowerr BP--it did for me.

Gracia

,

You wrote:

>

> can Armour cause your blood pressue and heart rate to go up?

>

> I have a resting heart rate of 48 and a blood pressure of 107/60 I have

> been taking Armour for almost 2 weeks and I just took my BP and heart

> rate and it is up quite a bit:116/71 HR:70

>

> Is this normal?

Yes, and yes.

Chuck

P.S. to Mike et al., a blood panel really isn't " full " if it omits FT3.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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PM

[Guest guest]

you are undertreated and will probly have to fight for enough meds.

Gracia

Hi,

can Armour cause your blood pressue and heart rate to go up?

I have a resting heart rate of 48 and a blood pressure of 107/60 I have been

taking Armour for almost 2 weeks and I just took my BP and heart rate and it is

up quite a bit:116/71 HR:70

Is this normal?

Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...> wrote:

Chuck,

I had a full blood panel with my regular doc. My TSH was 4.87,

still under 5 so my regular doc said it was normal. My triglycerides

were 300, but everything else was within normal parameters

except for very low iron. I was anemic. I've been supplementing

with iron for several weeks now.

I felt like crap but all my regular doc would offer was weight

loss surgery.

I went to see an endocrinologist, and she said that anything over 3

is HypoT. My symptoms were:

Very low energy

Hair thinning, only have half eyebrows.

Weight gain. I would work out 5 days a week for an hour at a time

doing cardio - calorimeter indicating 1000-1200 Kcal, daily

food consumption of 900-1200 kcal, and not losing weight.

Not having the energy to finish sentences.

Being very forgetful.

Only having 2 or 3 bowel movements a week.

Depression.

Joint pain

Muscle pain

Tendonitis

Narcolepsy

I compensated by consuming huge amounts of caffeine.

I should also mention that I am on blood pressure meds.

100 mg Toprol xl - a Beta blocker

20 mg Lisinopril

I don't know why my body temp has always been low, but it has

always been low, and I have always felt hot, until now.

Since I started treatment, I've been weening myself off of caffeine.

I am getting back to low energy. It is 2 weeks into this, and I am

supposed to increase my dose to 30 mg Armour. This morning

my blood pressure was a little high so I put it off for another day.

I don't know what all is going on with me. I expect 24 hour urine

test results back in a couple weeks. That should be informative.

All I know is that overall, I've improved since I started taking Armour.

Right now I'm about to crash again. Pushing send before I go to sleep.

>

> Mike,

>

> Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

>

> Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

>

> The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

>

> Chuck

>

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> > with 15 mg Armour

> > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > guess the doc

> > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > significant changes in

> > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> > 116/67 to

> > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> > few days and

> > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > week, I start

> > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > temperature. The temp

> > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> > weeks, the roller

> > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> > out like a bullfrog's

> > neck during mating season.

> >

> > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > during the initial

> > phase of treatment?

> >

> > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this

out?

> >

> > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh, I

> > forgot to mention

> > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > probably deem toxic. It

> > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > was only making

> > things worse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

WOW you are a very hypothyroid person on too little meds. this is the

chinese water torture method of allopathic treatment---give too little and

increase too late. the endo seems smart about some things though, hopefully

she will learn to use Armour better. when I got to one grain Armour (60mg) I

felt like I was insane. adding just 30mg more helped a lot. (now I take

240mg). you are consuming less calories than the ppl I work with who are in

wheel chairs. I hope you will get enough Armour soon.

Gracia

Chuck,

I had a full blood panel with my regular doc. My TSH was 4.87,

still under 5 so my regular doc said it was normal. My triglycerides

were 300, but everything else was within normal parameters

except for very low iron. I was anemic. I've been supplementing

with iron for several weeks now.

I felt like crap but all my regular doc would offer was weight

loss surgery.

I went to see an endocrinologist, and she said that anything over 3

is HypoT. My symptoms were:

Very low energy

Hair thinning, only have half eyebrows.

Weight gain. I would work out 5 days a week for an hour at a time

doing cardio - calorimeter indicating 1000-1200 Kcal, daily

food consumption of 900-1200 kcal, and not losing weight.

Not having the energy to finish sentences.

Being very forgetful.

Only having 2 or 3 bowel movements a week.

Depression.

Joint pain

Muscle pain

Tendonitis

Narcolepsy

I compensated by consuming huge amounts of caffeine.

I should also mention that I am on blood pressure meds.

100 mg Toprol xl - a Beta blocker

20 mg Lisinopril

I don't know why my body temp has always been low, but it has

always been low, and I have always felt hot, until now.

Since I started treatment, I've been weening myself off of caffeine.

I am getting back to low energy. It is 2 weeks into this, and I am

supposed to increase my dose to 30 mg Armour. This morning

my blood pressure was a little high so I put it off for another day.

I don't know what all is going on with me. I expect 24 hour urine

test results back in a couple weeks. That should be informative.

All I know is that overall, I've improved since I started taking Armour.

Right now I'm about to crash again. Pushing send before I go to sleep.

>

> Mike,

>

> Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

>

> Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

>

> The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

>

> Chuck

>

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> > with 15 mg Armour

> > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > guess the doc

> > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > significant changes in

> > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> > 116/67 to

> > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> > few days and

> > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > week, I start

> > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > temperature. The temp

> > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> > weeks, the roller

> > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> > out like a bullfrog's

> > neck during mating season.

> >

> > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > during the initial

> > phase of treatment?

> >

> > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this

out?

> >

> > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh, I

> > forgot to mention

> > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > probably deem toxic. It

> > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > was only making

> > things worse.

> >

>

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[Guest guest]

I fyou want to try something miraculous then try iodine/iodide (Iodoral)

http://www.optimox.com

Gracia

Hi Sheila,

> You are probably still experiencing all these symptoms because you are

> nowhere near to taking the right dose of Armour that your body needs.

> You must be patient and let your body get used to these new hormones

> they have been without for some time.

I hate to wait! ;-) Really, I don't mind. After having a couple episodes

of being *wired*, I can certainly wait. I'm beginning to suspect interactions

with the BP meds, but I am sure that the adrenals are whacked too.

> Do you know whether you have a high cholesterol level?

My total cholesterol is 147 with HDL 21/LDL 66 but I have high triglycerides

(300) from the beta blocker blood pressure meds.

> If you want to go

> down the natural route to bringing your pressure down, try high doses of

> CoEnzymeQ10 n(say 300 mgs) and also the non-flushing Niacin (vitamin

> B3) at 350mgs. My husband had very high BP and refused to use the

> synthetic meds. our doctor recommended and has brought it right down

> using these.

I will certainly try Q10. I am taking a supplement with lots of Niacin, but

it makes me turn red and feel funny. Is there some other form of Niacin

that doesn't cause this reaction?

> Get your doctor to check out your sore glands. Infections last a long

> time when your metabolism is low.

This has been going on for over a year. They put me on antibiotics

for a couple weeks when it first happened. I almost hate to go back.

> OLnce on the right dose, your brain fog will go. I

> know, my brain was the first thing to come back to me when I started

> Armour.

I can't wait!

> Your BP is not high. Low BP is to be expected in somebody with

> hypothyroidism. I would suggest you try to find out whether your

> adrenals are compromised and if your cortisol is low, get some

> supplementation. If you start adrenal supplementation, then take your

> BP, temperature and pulse daily to see if this is making a difference.

Adrenal supplements? Is there a vitamin supplementation regimen for

adrenal support? I expect the results back for the adrenal tests in a

couple weeks. I'll probably start a treatment program for that soon

too.

Thanks Sheila!

Have a great day! -Mike

[Guest guest]

Hi Gracia,

> WOW you are a very hypothyroid person on too little meds. this is the

chinese water

torture method of allopathic treatment---give too little and increase too late.

the endo

seems smart about some things though, hopefully she will learn to use Armour

better. when

I got to one grain Armour (60mg) I felt like I was insane. adding just 30mg

more helped a

lot. (now I take 240mg). you are consuming less calories than the ppl I work

with who are

in wheel chairs. I hope you will get enough Armour soon.

> Gracia

I think she is being very cautious because I am on so much blood pressure

medicine. I went

from 15 mg to 30 mg in two weeks. I don't know if she plans to make it 45 or 60

mg in

another two weeks. Even at this level, it is helping. The weight is coming off

now. About a

pound on cardio days, and half a pound on weight lifting only days. I've got a

lot more

energy, but then again, before I had absolutely none.

Thanks, I really appreciate all the good information and feedback I get here.

Best, -Mike

[Guest guest]

I don't take ANY BP meds and I had very high BP. Armour really relaxed me.

Remind her not to go by TSH but by the Free T3 and T4 and how you feel!

Gracia

Hi Gracia,

> WOW you are a very hypothyroid person on too little meds. this is the

chinese water

torture method of allopathic treatment---give too little and increase too

late. the endo

seems smart about some things though, hopefully she will learn to use Armour

better. when

I got to one grain Armour (60mg) I felt like I was insane. adding just 30mg

more helped a

lot. (now I take 240mg). you are consuming less calories than the ppl I work

with who are

in wheel chairs. I hope you will get enough Armour soon.

> Gracia

I think she is being very cautious because I am on so much blood pressure

medicine. I went

from 15 mg to 30 mg in two weeks. I don't know if she plans to make it 45 or

60 mg in

another two weeks. Even at this level, it is helping. The weight is coming off

now. About a

pound on cardio days, and half a pound on weight lifting only days. I've got a

lot more

energy, but then again, before I had absolutely none.

Thanks, I really appreciate all the good information and feedback I get here.

Best, -Mike

[Guest guest]

poor advice on iodine.

better advice at http://www.optimox.com

Gracia who is 5' 2 " tall and take 100mg Iodoral daily.

you should dose by symptoms; not weight. start with 60 mg or 1 grain and

titrate up from there. you might need to hold your dose increases for 4-6 weeks

each time; depending on how sensitive you are to the increases.

if you get heart palps- you can either take a low dose of iodine [ if you

don't Hashi's or are allergic to iodine] or take magnesium to calm the heart as

you adjust the armour. that is what I tell my patients and that is what my

natural medicine MD tells me and her patients. she also takes armour herself at

5 grains.

nancie

From: htbacon

Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:37 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Another newbie introduction

Chuck-- Do you have anymore information or a link for me re: dosing

armour in light of weight?

I've been trying to figure this out since I'm short and thin, but

haven't had any luck yet.

Thank you!

Heidi

> Forest also says that the maximum dose is 3 grains (180 mg). However,

> many on this list take more than that, up to 6 grains, IIRC. Forest

also

> says that a full replacement dose (depending on weight) should be in

the

> neighborhood of 120 mg (2 grains), which is why I previously told

> Janelle that her dose of 60 mg seemed low.

>

>

[Guest guest]

high cholesterol used to be the way that hypothyroidism was Dxed. (b4 TSH

testing). big $$$ in cholesterol meds.

Gracia

Well, my BP was 124/76 this morning so I increased to 30 mg.

I feel great!

As for having a heart condition, I do have a little bit of

hypertension, especially after 3 pots of coffee, which

used to be my normal state of being! I think the ticker

is fine because I spin an elliptical trainer for an hour

at a time, 3-5 times a week, and can't get my pulse

over 136 for love or money. Probably over medicated.

As for over-prescribing BP and cholesterol drugs, can

you believe that I'm supposed to be taking a statin

with my cholesterol numbers?

Total 147 - HDL 21 - LDL 61

At one point I might have been over 200 total, but

that was a long time ago. I've cleaned up my act since

then. I just quit taking that stuff a long time ago. It was

giving me muscle cramps.

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the info.

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[Guest guest]

right people are supposed to trust a site that relies on quack science and

offers no peer reviewed research to back up its claims.

even my natural medicine PHYSICIAN does not prescribe that much iodine to her

patients initially. she starts small and titrates up- always cautious incase the

person has a allergic reaction. that IS responsible medicine.

From: Gracia

Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:42 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Another newbie introduction

poor advice on iodine.

better advice at http://www.optimox.com

Gracia who is 5' 2 " tall and take 100mg Iodoral daily.

you should dose by symptoms; not weight. start with 60 mg or 1 grain and titrate

up from there. you might need to hold your dose increases for 4-6 weeks each

time; depending on how sensitive you are to the increases.

if you get heart palps- you can either take a low dose of iodine [ if you don't

Hashi's or are allergic to iodine] or take magnesium to calm the heart as you

adjust the armour. that is what I tell my patients and that is what my natural

medicine MD tells me and her patients. she also takes armour herself at 5

grains.

nancie

From: htbacon

Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:37 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Another newbie introduction

Chuck-- Do you have anymore information or a link for me re: dosing

armour in light of weight?

I've been trying to figure this out since I'm short and thin, but

haven't had any luck yet.

Thank you!

Heidi

> Forest also says that the maximum dose is 3 grains (180 mg). However,

> many on this list take more than that, up to 6 grains, IIRC. Forest

also

> says that a full replacement dose (depending on weight) should be in

the

> neighborhood of 120 mg (2 grains), which is why I previously told

> Janelle that her dose of 60 mg seemed low.

>

>