Re: Fighting Candida with Lactobaccilus to Duncan

[Guest guest]

people get candida by not having enough inulin? any you are the only

source of " good " inulin? good grief.

johng

> >

> > Is Inulin something I'd get at a health food

> > store, a mineral or vitamin or herb? How much

> > would you recommend. I already take the

> > bifidobacteria plus two others.

> > Thanks, Barb

> >

>

> Hi Barb;

>

> Inulin is neither a vitamin or a mineral; it is a water extract of

> indigestible carbohydrates. The modern diet provides only about 2.6

> grams to 3.6 grams of inulin, and not having it is how most people

> got their bowel dysbiosis and bowel candida in the first place.

>

> The object is to replace the inulin lost to the modern diet, to

fall

> into line with optimal values of 12-15 grams daily.

>

> If you can tolerate 6% to 11% sugars, and 2% to 3% FOS, you can use

> the inulin you can find in most health food stores or vitamin

> galleries, and online.

>

> But sugar feeds many yeasts and bacteria, and FOS also supports

some

> problematic bacteria. This part -- the short-chain and sugar part

of

> inulin -- gives 'inulin' and 'FOS' a bad name when people don't

know

> what they're talking about.

>

> I am the only source worldwide for inulin from which the short

chains

> and the sugars have been removed. This makes the inulin a very

> specific feed, a fact that has been well-corroborated both in

> practice and in the scientific journals. The purchase point and the

> references are here:

> http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_prebiotic_probiotic.html

>

> This inulin will feed bifidobacteria, lactobacilli, and a few

neutral

> bacteria that will soon be suppressed and outcompeted as the bowel

pH

> changes and the probiotic bacteria assert their natural function.

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan

[Guest guest]

>

> its found naturally in asparagus, garlic, Jerusalem Artichokes,

> chicory root, and others. as far as processed inulin, you might want

> to have a look at this:

>

> http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/knowledge_base/kb/inulin.htm

,

Your comments on natural sources of inulin are generally good and

fruitful; I agree with using natural (preferably raw) foods when you

can. To improve a bit on the accuracy, I would add that although

natural inulin sources are OK for healthy people as a prevention,

they are perhaps less good for people with more than a small degree

of bowel dysbiosis. The reason is mainly that the amount (several

serving daily) of high inulin-containing foods that you need to eat

to change the gut flora, makes the foods you cited staple foods.

But your comment is not very accurate on the 'processed' statement:

again, refined 'native' inulin is nothing more than a water

extraction, something like saving the water after boiling a potato,

and indeed this is more like the ancient Greek method of soothing " a

warm and windy stomach " . It's just spray-dried, that's all.

Let me make myself perfectly clear on the SCD: parts of the the SCD

relating to bowel fermentation (and also glutathione production) are

more dogma than fact. Outlawing a natural function (gut fermentation)

that we evolved with is an unjustice to the organism.

Here are two simple reasons:

Probiotic bowel bacteria, IF they are fermenting (proliferating) in

the bowel, produce beneficial short chain fatty acids for example.

Probiotics you eat, without allowing fermentation, do not.

Probiotics, IF they are fermenting, outcompete the bad bacteria on

the bowel lining, where crucial functions such as acid levels,

infection and nutrient absorption take place. Probiotics you eat

without allowing fermentation do not.

The two points above put a lot of doubt on the SC diet, which

disallows fermentation.

PLUS, bad bacteria are then allowed to proliferate ad. lib. and they

produce toxins and also interfere with the natural function of the

bowel lining

The clincher is that the SC diet encourages the use of many sugars

that feed yeast and bad bowel bacteria.

Almost without exception, the actual research, as opposed to

someone's book, does not favor this diet in its entirety.

Gottschall perhaps lacks the will to revise her dogma, at least the

parts that may be harmful, particularly in view of the evidence.

I encourage people to read the research. Those who will not at least

learn the differences between the actual research and the opinion of

an old lady and a few zealots who collectively do not appreciate that

there is a difference between the various prebiotics will be the real

losers. I say, all things considered, out with the old. The

information is tainted and this invalidates this particular package

for most people. There is lots of valid information out there we can

use. This SCD just ain't it.

However, if any want to follow a new religion, join the appropriate

group. There are at least two, the HCrow and the SCD groups.

regards,

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

I don't know what the SCD diet is and probably never will (just isn't

relevent to me). the link was specific to inulin, had good info on

that subject, and did not concern any type of special diet. call

it " refined " or whatever, its still not natural. I don't believe I

or anyone else needs to " change " my bowel flora, rather my body

changed my get flora fine just fine by itself as soon as I took care

of my digestion. I don't believe in probiotics any more than I

believe in inulin. (unless you are getting them from good old

fashioned fermented foods). I never touched man made inulin, and yet

i completely recovered from candida. no more diet, no more supps.

anyone can do this, but you can't buy in bottle.

johng

> >

> > its found naturally in asparagus, garlic, Jerusalem Artichokes,

> > chicory root, and others. as far as processed inulin, you might

want

> > to have a look at this:

> >

> >

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/knowledge_base/kb/inulin.htm

>

> ,

>

> Your comments on natural sources of inulin are generally good and

> fruitful; I agree with using natural (preferably raw) foods when

you

> can. To improve a bit on the accuracy, I would add that although

> natural inulin sources are OK for healthy people as a prevention,

> they are perhaps less good for people with more than a small degree

> of bowel dysbiosis. The reason is mainly that the amount (several

> serving daily) of high inulin-containing foods that you need to eat

> to change the gut flora, makes the foods you cited staple foods.

>

> But your comment is not very accurate on the 'processed'

statement:

> again, refined 'native' inulin is nothing more than a water

> extraction, something like saving the water after boiling a potato,

> and indeed this is more like the ancient Greek method of

soothing " a

> warm and windy stomach " . It's just spray-dried, that's all.

>

> Let me make myself perfectly clear on the SCD: parts of the the SCD

> relating to bowel fermentation (and also glutathione production)

are

> more dogma than fact. Outlawing a natural function (gut

fermentation)

> that we evolved with is an unjustice to the organism.

>

> Here are two simple reasons:

>

> Probiotic bowel bacteria, IF they are fermenting (proliferating) in

> the bowel, produce beneficial short chain fatty acids for example.

> Probiotics you eat, without allowing fermentation, do not.

>

> Probiotics, IF they are fermenting, outcompete the bad bacteria on

> the bowel lining, where crucial functions such as acid levels,

> infection and nutrient absorption take place. Probiotics you eat

> without allowing fermentation do not.

>

> The two points above put a lot of doubt on the SC diet, which

> disallows fermentation.

>

> PLUS, bad bacteria are then allowed to proliferate ad. lib. and

they

> produce toxins and also interfere with the natural function of the

> bowel lining

>

> The clincher is that the SC diet encourages the use of many sugars

> that feed yeast and bad bowel bacteria.

>

> Almost without exception, the actual research, as opposed to

> someone's book, does not favor this diet in its entirety.

>

> Gottschall perhaps lacks the will to revise her dogma, at least the

> parts that may be harmful, particularly in view of the evidence.

>

> I encourage people to read the research. Those who will not at

least

> learn the differences between the actual research and the opinion

of

> an old lady and a few zealots who collectively do not appreciate

that

> there is a difference between the various prebiotics will be the

real

> losers. I say, all things considered, out with the old. The

> information is tainted and this invalidates this particular

package

> for most people. There is lots of valid information out there we

can

> use. This SCD just ain't it.

>

> However, if any want to follow a new religion, join the appropriate

> group. There are at least two, the HCrow and the SCD groups.

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

More on inulin from Elaine Gotchell:

http://www.scdiet.org/4faq/default.html

in the section “Why isn't the SCD more accepted by M.D.'s and GI

specialists?”

Note what she says about

clostridium.

Re:

Fighting Candida with Lactobaccilus to Duncan

I don't know what the SCD

diet is and probably never will (just isn't

relevent to

me). the link was specific to inulin, had good info on

that

subject, and did not concern any type of special diet. call

it

" refined " or whatever, its still not natural. I don't believe I

or anyone

else needs to " change " my bowel flora, rather my body

changed my

get flora fine just fine by itself as soon as I took care

of my

digestion. I don't believe in probiotics any more than I

believe in

inulin. (unless you are getting them from good old

fashioned

fermented foods). I never touched man made inulin, and yet

i completely

recovered from candida. no more diet, no more supps.

anyone can

do this, but you can't buy in bottle.

johng

[Guest guest]

This reply is of crucial importance to all those who are interested

in bowel health, and though it is long, it should be read and filed.

JOHN:

>

> I don't know what the SCD diet is and probably never will (just

isn't

> relevent to me). the link was specific to inulin, had good info on

> that subject, and did not concern any type of special diet. call it

You may have missed my point on this article of a few days ago -- the

article you linked to is hosted by the creator of the SCD and written

by an SCD advocate. It does not qualify as 'good information'.

The references they list to support their argument without linking

any of their text to, are in fact mainly positive on prebiotics. Out

of more than 1000 references I've seen on the subject, I think only

two are in any way negative.

>

> people get candida by not having enough inulin? any you are the

only

> source of " good " inulin? good grief.

>

> johng

I keep going over this same ground and I've given references for the

comments. It's getting pretty clear you are one of the few who are

disinterested in following a link I give to the facts, but I still

respect your skepticism.

Here it is one more time -- People get candida by not adequately

supporting probiotic bowel bacteria through dietary considerations;

the modern diet with the easy carbs has reduced our inulin intake.

Inulin intake historically was 5 or 6 times higher in Europe, and 50

times higher in Australia, than it is in North America today. That's

explained here:

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIb

Although I've also repeatedly written that while I'm the only retail

source for sugar-free inulin, I've repeatedly written that other

source are abundant, in vegetables (historic sources) and supplement

form from the health food stores. Really, you are just being

difficult, yes?

> " refined " or whatever, its still not natural. I don't believe I or

> anyone else needs to " change " my bowel flora,

Agreed that refined is not natural, but notice how the SCD zealots

parlay a water extraction into a 'man-made chemical' on their

website? Heck, soup is a water extraction.

, you already did change your bowel flora, and that's how you got

bowel dysbiosis and candida. What prebiotics do is simply put it back

the way it's supposed to be. This is a valuable assist in addition to

the cleansing you did. Here are the alternatives:

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#III

NOTE FIGURE 5:

" In elderly persons bilidobaderia decrease or completely disappear,

putrefactive bacteria like clostridia including C. perfringens,

significantly increase. In addition, lactobacilli, streptococci, and

enterobacteriaceae also increase, Figure 5 "

_________________________________________

SUSAN:

, regarding your link to similar SCD advocate pages, see that

they avoid fermentable carbs in order to keep the energy. The logic

is flawed. What they do is eat sugars that can be used by yeast, and

simultaneously disallow a few things that are good for you. But

that's not my point this time. Short chain fatty acids are

manufactured in the bowel out of fermentable carbs. These have

various positive effects such as bowel tumor suppression and control

of other organisms.

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIIb

NOTE:

" SCFAs are important anions in the colonic lumen, affecting both

colonocyte morphology and function. By stimulating sodium and water

absorption, SFCAS act to minimize effects due to diarrhea. SCFAS may

enhance ileal motility and increase intestinal cell proliferation by

local action and by increasing mucosal blood flow (Scheppach, 1994),

Figure 9. "

" In addition to their effects on gut morphology and function, the

SCFAS are absorbed through the colonic epithelial cells into the

portal blood, thus becoming a source for host energy and regulators

of several metabolic processes, Figure 10. "

The SCD seriously reduces these benefits. And again, her writings

illustrate that Gottschall doesn't grasp the difference between FOS

and inulin (she figures elsewhere on the same page that inulin is

FOS) , and she certainly doesn't know that the various prebiotics

have differing properties in that they appeal to different organisms.

This is a key point.

Another key point is that she found a GI specialist who agreed with

her, which isn't a surprise. But good GI specialists around the world

often read the literature in their own peer-reviewed journals, and

revise their opinions based on these. These journal articles, their

guidelines, are overwhelmingly positive for the use of prebiotics,

particularly inulin, even though I can acknowledge that a few of the

references point out that FOS (not inulin) can be problematic on

occasion.

But specifically to your/her reference to clostridia growing on short-

chain FOS, yes, some strains do, but don't be as confused as she is

by thinking FOS is the same thing as inulin. Clostridia doesn't grow

on the longer-chained inulin, as many other studies have shown. On

the other hand, a strain clostridia is used commercially to grow on

cellulose, which is plentiful in the SCD, and it and e. coli are the

most likely causes of diarrhea in some people who don't seen to

tolerate salad.

We who have read the research (that to be fair to Gottschall perhaps

didn't all exist when was studying carbohydrates) know FOS can be

problematic, and we know inulin is less so, and we know specifically

which bacteria can or can not use each type of prebiotic, because

these studies have been published. This is important, because now we

can drop the ham-handed approach and get to very specific

applications with a prebiotic.

It's pretty clear that key research with graphs and chart and all

that has not appealed to a few people, so they might go ahead and

follow someone else's erroneous opinion that is based on flawed

assumptions.

I have clients who had crohn's and colitis due to chronic bowel

dysbiosis, who modified the SCD approach and got results in three

months that they never saw in their six years on the diet. I say, why

waste your time finding out if the restrictive SCD dogma will work

over the years, if you can cleanse and do liver flushes, and support

correct bowel bacteria to get a positive result in three months or

sometimes less?

See what I'm getting at? I think we can agree the information was

presented well, that it exists and is solid, and the reasons for not

approaching bowel health in this way are weak arguments.

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

Dissinterested because you can get all the inulin you need from food,

without paying outrageous amounts a frankerfood version of it. And, in

food form, it is natural, balenced and healthy.

I'm glad you think you narrowed down candida to one cause, but I

disagree as I believe it can have a wide variety of causes, diet being

only one. sure the american diet is bad, so change the diet, don't

add more frankenfoods. that seems simple enough. Moreover, I believe

candida overgrowth itself is playing a necessary role for the body,

and that therefore, artificially manipulating levels of bacteria in

the gi tract is shortshighted and harmful. My recovery involved no

such artificial manipulation. As my liver function was restored, so

too was digestion. natural bowel flora balenced followed. no need to

buy probiotic, prebiotics or much else for that matter. my wife was

thrilled when I woke up and quit wasting large amounts of money we

needed for other things. Am I being difficult? no, I just stick to my

principals and what I know.

You imply that we need to buy inulin to recover, I am living proof

that it is not so. I recovered without inulin or other supps, so can

anyone else. As far as your clients recovering after doing liver

flushes, I agree, that's good work. Its funny that you often mention

inulin or whey, but only occaisonally when asked or when defending

yourself mention liver flushing.

g

> This reply is of crucial importance to all those who are interested

> in bowel health, and though it is long, it should be read and filed.

>

> JOHN:

>

> >

> > I don't know what the SCD diet is and probably never will (just

> isn't

> > relevent to me). the link was specific to inulin, had good info on

> > that subject, and did not concern any type of special diet. call it

>

> You may have missed my point on this article of a few days ago -- the

> article you linked to is hosted by the creator of the SCD and written

> by an SCD advocate. It does not qualify as 'good information'.

>

> The references they list to support their argument without linking

> any of their text to, are in fact mainly positive on prebiotics. Out

> of more than 1000 references I've seen on the subject, I think only

> two are in any way negative.

>

> >

> > people get candida by not having enough inulin? any you are the

> only

> > source of " good " inulin? good grief.

> >

> > johng

>

> I keep going over this same ground and I've given references for the

> comments. It's getting pretty clear you are one of the few who are

> disinterested in following a link I give to the facts, but I still

> respect your skepticism.

>

> Here it is one more time -- People get candida by not adequately

> supporting probiotic bowel bacteria through dietary considerations;

> the modern diet with the easy carbs has reduced our inulin intake.

> Inulin intake historically was 5 or 6 times higher in Europe, and 50

> times higher in Australia, than it is in North America today. That's

> explained here:

> http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIb

>

> Although I've also repeatedly written that while I'm the only retail

> source for sugar-free inulin, I've repeatedly written that other

> source are abundant, in vegetables (historic sources) and supplement

> form from the health food stores. Really, you are just being

> difficult, yes?

>

> > " refined " or whatever, its still not natural. I don't believe I or

> > anyone else needs to " change " my bowel flora,

>

> Agreed that refined is not natural, but notice how the SCD zealots

> parlay a water extraction into a 'man-made chemical' on their

> website? Heck, soup is a water extraction.

>

> , you already did change your bowel flora, and that's how you got

> bowel dysbiosis and candida. What prebiotics do is simply put it back

> the way it's supposed to be. This is a valuable assist in addition to

> the cleansing you did. Here are the alternatives:

> http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#III

>

> NOTE FIGURE 5:

> " In elderly persons bilidobaderia decrease or completely disappear,

> putrefactive bacteria like clostridia including C. perfringens,

> significantly increase. In addition, lactobacilli, streptococci, and

> enterobacteriaceae also increase, Figure 5 "

>

> _________________________________________

>

> SUSAN:

>

> , regarding your link to similar SCD advocate pages, see that

> they avoid fermentable carbs in order to keep the energy. The logic

> is flawed. What they do is eat sugars that can be used by yeast, and

> simultaneously disallow a few things that are good for you. But

> that's not my point this time. Short chain fatty acids are

> manufactured in the bowel out of fermentable carbs. These have

> various positive effects such as bowel tumor suppression and control

> of other organisms.

> http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIIb

>

> NOTE:

> " SCFAs are important anions in the colonic lumen, affecting both

> colonocyte morphology and function. By stimulating sodium and water

> absorption, SFCAS act to minimize effects due to diarrhea. SCFAS may

> enhance ileal motility and increase intestinal cell proliferation by

> local action and by increasing mucosal blood flow (Scheppach, 1994),

> Figure 9. "

>

> " In addition to their effects on gut morphology and function, the

> SCFAS are absorbed through the colonic epithelial cells into the

> portal blood, thus becoming a source for host energy and regulators

> of several metabolic processes, Figure 10. "

>

> The SCD seriously reduces these benefits. And again, her writings

> illustrate that Gottschall doesn't grasp the difference between FOS

> and inulin (she figures elsewhere on the same page that inulin is

> FOS) , and she certainly doesn't know that the various prebiotics

> have differing properties in that they appeal to different organisms.

> This is a key point.

>

> Another key point is that she found a GI specialist who agreed with

> her, which isn't a surprise. But good GI specialists around the world

> often read the literature in their own peer-reviewed journals, and

> revise their opinions based on these. These journal articles, their

> guidelines, are overwhelmingly positive for the use of prebiotics,

> particularly inulin, even though I can acknowledge that a few of the

> references point out that FOS (not inulin) can be problematic on

> occasion.

>

> But specifically to your/her reference to clostridia growing on short-

> chain FOS, yes, some strains do, but don't be as confused as she is

> by thinking FOS is the same thing as inulin. Clostridia doesn't grow

> on the longer-chained inulin, as many other studies have shown. On

> the other hand, a strain clostridia is used commercially to grow on

> cellulose, which is plentiful in the SCD, and it and e. coli are the

> most likely causes of diarrhea in some people who don't seen to

> tolerate salad.

>

> We who have read the research (that to be fair to Gottschall perhaps

> didn't all exist when was studying carbohydrates) know FOS can be

> problematic, and we know inulin is less so, and we know specifically

> which bacteria can or can not use each type of prebiotic, because

> these studies have been published. This is important, because now we

> can drop the ham-handed approach and get to very specific

> applications with a prebiotic.

>

> It's pretty clear that key research with graphs and chart and all

> that has not appealed to a few people, so they might go ahead and

> follow someone else's erroneous opinion that is based on flawed

> assumptions.

>

> I have clients who had crohn's and colitis due to chronic bowel

> dysbiosis, who modified the SCD approach and got results in three

> months that they never saw in their six years on the diet. I say, why

> waste your time finding out if the restrictive SCD dogma will work

> over the years, if you can cleanse and do liver flushes, and support

> correct bowel bacteria to get a positive result in three months or

> sometimes less?

>

> See what I'm getting at? I think we can agree the information was

> presented well, that it exists and is solid, and the reasons for not

> approaching bowel health in this way are weak arguments.

>

> Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

Wow! I am new to this list and you all are way over my head. Can someone help

me please with some questions I have. Maybe steer me in the right direction to

find info?

I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER. My doctor thinks that is the

only way I would have true Candida. After reading some lists of symptoms I am

sure I have it or something.

At times I would get this really wierd body odor that was almost like something

rotten or garbage. Spaciness, numerous sinus infections, indigestion, red slimy

patches of rashes under my breasts or in the thigh area. I have developed a lot

of allergies and asthma.

I also have difficulty losing weight and crave breads and chocolate.

When I eat low carb I feel like crap for about 3 weeks and than I feel really

good. A lot of my symptoms go away and I have so much more energy. One little

slip up and I am back again to the cravings etc.

I am willing to do anything to get healthier. What advice can anyone give me?

Where can I find a diet? Do I need to take Olive leaf extract or whatever? to

help kill this or what?

NOt trying to start another WAR but could someone or anyone point me in some

direction, even if you all argue about it I would love to get some basic

information.

Jeanne in Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

Thanks alot for your post! I too have spent mucho $$$$$ on everything

under the sun. I had my first liver flush and my digestion is really

improving. I haven't been able to digest fiber for years! I feel so

different and am excited to continue to do the flushes until I get done. I

appreciate your honesty!

Re: Fighting Candida with Lactobaccilus to Duncan

> Dissinterested because you can get all the inulin you need from food,

> without paying outrageous amounts a frankerfood version of it. And, in

> food form, it is natural, balenced and healthy.

>

> I'm glad you think you narrowed down candida to one cause, but I

> disagree as I believe it can have a wide variety of causes, diet being

> only one. sure the american diet is bad, so change the diet, don't

> add more frankenfoods. that seems simple enough. Moreover, I believe

> candida overgrowth itself is playing a necessary role for the body,

> and that therefore, artificially manipulating levels of bacteria in

> the gi tract is shortshighted and harmful. My recovery involved no

> such artificial manipulation. As my liver function was restored, so

> too was digestion. natural bowel flora balenced followed. no need to

> buy probiotic, prebiotics or much else for that matter. my wife was

> thrilled when I woke up and quit wasting large amounts of money we

> needed for other things. Am I being difficult? no, I just stick to my

> principals and what I know.

>

> You imply that we need to buy inulin to recover, I am living proof

> that it is not so. I recovered without inulin or other supps, so can

> anyone else. As far as your clients recovering after doing liver

> flushes, I agree, that's good work. Its funny that you often mention

> inulin or whey, but only occaisonally when asked or when defending

> yourself mention liver flushing.

>

> g

>

>

> > This reply is of crucial importance to all those who are interested

> > in bowel health, and though it is long, it should be read and filed.

> >

> > JOHN:

> >

> > >

> > > I don't know what the SCD diet is and probably never will (just

> > isn't

> > > relevent to me). the link was specific to inulin, had good info on

> > > that subject, and did not concern any type of special diet. call it

> >

> > You may have missed my point on this article of a few days ago -- the

> > article you linked to is hosted by the creator of the SCD and written

> > by an SCD advocate. It does not qualify as 'good information'.

> >

> > The references they list to support their argument without linking

> > any of their text to, are in fact mainly positive on prebiotics. Out

> > of more than 1000 references I've seen on the subject, I think only

> > two are in any way negative.

> >

> > >

> > > people get candida by not having enough inulin? any you are the

> > only

> > > source of " good " inulin? good grief.

> > >

> > > johng

> >

> > I keep going over this same ground and I've given references for the

> > comments. It's getting pretty clear you are one of the few who are

> > disinterested in following a link I give to the facts, but I still

> > respect your skepticism.

> >

> > Here it is one more time -- People get candida by not adequately

> > supporting probiotic bowel bacteria through dietary considerations;

> > the modern diet with the easy carbs has reduced our inulin intake.

> > Inulin intake historically was 5 or 6 times higher in Europe, and 50

> > times higher in Australia, than it is in North America today. That's

> > explained here:

> > http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIb

> >

> > Although I've also repeatedly written that while I'm the only retail

> > source for sugar-free inulin, I've repeatedly written that other

> > source are abundant, in vegetables (historic sources) and supplement

> > form from the health food stores. Really, you are just being

> > difficult, yes?

> >

> > > " refined " or whatever, its still not natural. I don't believe I or

> > > anyone else needs to " change " my bowel flora,

> >

> > Agreed that refined is not natural, but notice how the SCD zealots

> > parlay a water extraction into a 'man-made chemical' on their

> > website? Heck, soup is a water extraction.

> >

> > , you already did change your bowel flora, and that's how you got

> > bowel dysbiosis and candida. What prebiotics do is simply put it back

> > the way it's supposed to be. This is a valuable assist in addition to

> > the cleansing you did. Here are the alternatives:

> > http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#III

> >

> > NOTE FIGURE 5:

> > " In elderly persons bilidobaderia decrease or completely disappear,

> > putrefactive bacteria like clostridia including C. perfringens,

> > significantly increase. In addition, lactobacilli, streptococci, and

> > enterobacteriaceae also increase, Figure 5 "

> >

> > _________________________________________

> >

> > SUSAN:

> >

> > , regarding your link to similar SCD advocate pages, see that

> > they avoid fermentable carbs in order to keep the energy. The logic

> > is flawed. What they do is eat sugars that can be used by yeast, and

> > simultaneously disallow a few things that are good for you. But

> > that's not my point this time. Short chain fatty acids are

> > manufactured in the bowel out of fermentable carbs. These have

> > various positive effects such as bowel tumor suppression and control

> > of other organisms.

> > http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIIb

> >

> > NOTE:

> > " SCFAs are important anions in the colonic lumen, affecting both

> > colonocyte morphology and function. By stimulating sodium and water

> > absorption, SFCAS act to minimize effects due to diarrhea. SCFAS may

> > enhance ileal motility and increase intestinal cell proliferation by

> > local action and by increasing mucosal blood flow (Scheppach, 1994),

> > Figure 9. "

> >

> > " In addition to their effects on gut morphology and function, the

> > SCFAS are absorbed through the colonic epithelial cells into the

> > portal blood, thus becoming a source for host energy and regulators

> > of several metabolic processes, Figure 10. "

> >

> > The SCD seriously reduces these benefits. And again, her writings

> > illustrate that Gottschall doesn't grasp the difference between FOS

> > and inulin (she figures elsewhere on the same page that inulin is

> > FOS) , and she certainly doesn't know that the various prebiotics

> > have differing properties in that they appeal to different organisms.

> > This is a key point.

> >

> > Another key point is that she found a GI specialist who agreed with

> > her, which isn't a surprise. But good GI specialists around the world

> > often read the literature in their own peer-reviewed journals, and

> > revise their opinions based on these. These journal articles, their

> > guidelines, are overwhelmingly positive for the use of prebiotics,

> > particularly inulin, even though I can acknowledge that a few of the

> > references point out that FOS (not inulin) can be problematic on

> > occasion.

> >

> > But specifically to your/her reference to clostridia growing on short-

> > chain FOS, yes, some strains do, but don't be as confused as she is

> > by thinking FOS is the same thing as inulin. Clostridia doesn't grow

> > on the longer-chained inulin, as many other studies have shown. On

> > the other hand, a strain clostridia is used commercially to grow on

> > cellulose, which is plentiful in the SCD, and it and e. coli are the

> > most likely causes of diarrhea in some people who don't seen to

> > tolerate salad.

> >

> > We who have read the research (that to be fair to Gottschall perhaps

> > didn't all exist when was studying carbohydrates) know FOS can be

> > problematic, and we know inulin is less so, and we know specifically

> > which bacteria can or can not use each type of prebiotic, because

> > these studies have been published. This is important, because now we

> > can drop the ham-handed approach and get to very specific

> > applications with a prebiotic.

> >

> > It's pretty clear that key research with graphs and chart and all

> > that has not appealed to a few people, so they might go ahead and

> > follow someone else's erroneous opinion that is based on flawed

> > assumptions.

> >

> > I have clients who had crohn's and colitis due to chronic bowel

> > dysbiosis, who modified the SCD approach and got results in three

> > months that they never saw in their six years on the diet. I say, why

> > waste your time finding out if the restrictive SCD dogma will work

> > over the years, if you can cleanse and do liver flushes, and support

> > correct bowel bacteria to get a positive result in three months or

> > sometimes less?

> >

> > See what I'm getting at? I think we can agree the information was

> > presented well, that it exists and is solid, and the reasons for not

> > approaching bowel health in this way are weak arguments.

> >

> > Duncan Crow

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks .

g

> > > This reply is of crucial importance to all those who are

interested

> > > in bowel health, and though it is long, it should be read and

filed.

> > >

> > > JOHN:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what the SCD diet is and probably never will

(just

> > > isn't

> > > > relevent to me). the link was specific to inulin, had good

info on

> > > > that subject, and did not concern any type of special diet.

call it

> > >

> > > You may have missed my point on this article of a few days ago -

- the

> > > article you linked to is hosted by the creator of the SCD and

written

> > > by an SCD advocate. It does not qualify as 'good information'.

> > >

> > > The references they list to support their argument without

linking

> > > any of their text to, are in fact mainly positive on

prebiotics. Out

> > > of more than 1000 references I've seen on the subject, I think

only

> > > two are in any way negative.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > people get candida by not having enough inulin? any you are

the

> > > only

> > > > source of " good " inulin? good grief.

> > > >

> > > > johng

> > >

> > > I keep going over this same ground and I've given references

for the

> > > comments. It's getting pretty clear you are one of the few who

are

> > > disinterested in following a link I give to the facts, but I

still

> > > respect your skepticism.

> > >

> > > Here it is one more time -- People get candida by not adequately

> > > supporting probiotic bowel bacteria through dietary

considerations;

> > > the modern diet with the easy carbs has reduced our inulin

intake.

> > > Inulin intake historically was 5 or 6 times higher in Europe,

and 50

> > > times higher in Australia, than it is in North America today.

That's

> > > explained here:

> > > http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIb

> > >

> > > Although I've also repeatedly written that while I'm the only

retail

> > > source for sugar-free inulin, I've repeatedly written that other

> > > source are abundant, in vegetables (historic sources) and

supplement

> > > form from the health food stores. Really, you are just being

> > > difficult, yes?

> > >

> > > > " refined " or whatever, its still not natural. I don't

believe I or

> > > > anyone else needs to " change " my bowel flora,

> > >

> > > Agreed that refined is not natural, but notice how the SCD

zealots

> > > parlay a water extraction into a 'man-made chemical' on their

> > > website? Heck, soup is a water extraction.

> > >

> > > , you already did change your bowel flora, and that's how

you got

> > > bowel dysbiosis and candida. What prebiotics do is simply put

it back

> > > the way it's supposed to be. This is a valuable assist in

addition to

> > > the cleansing you did. Here are the alternatives:

> > > http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#III

> > >

> > > NOTE FIGURE 5:

> > > " In elderly persons bilidobaderia decrease or completely

disappear,

> > > putrefactive bacteria like clostridia including C. perfringens,

> > > significantly increase. In addition, lactobacilli,

streptococci, and

> > > enterobacteriaceae also increase, Figure 5 "

> > >

> > > _________________________________________

> > >

> > > SUSAN:

> > >

> > > , regarding your link to similar SCD advocate pages, see

that

> > > they avoid fermentable carbs in order to keep the energy. The

logic

> > > is flawed. What they do is eat sugars that can be used by

yeast, and

> > > simultaneously disallow a few things that are good for you. But

> > > that's not my point this time. Short chain fatty acids are

> > > manufactured in the bowel out of fermentable carbs. These have

> > > various positive effects such as bowel tumor suppression and

control

> > > of other organisms.

> > > http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html#IIIb

> > >

> > > NOTE:

> > > " SCFAs are important anions in the colonic lumen, affecting both

> > > colonocyte morphology and function. By stimulating sodium and

water

> > > absorption, SFCAS act to minimize effects due to diarrhea.

SCFAS may

> > > enhance ileal motility and increase intestinal cell

proliferation by

> > > local action and by increasing mucosal blood flow (Scheppach,

1994),

> > > Figure 9. "

> > >

> > > " In addition to their effects on gut morphology and function,

the

> > > SCFAS are absorbed through the colonic epithelial cells into the

> > > portal blood, thus becoming a source for host energy and

regulators

> > > of several metabolic processes, Figure 10. "

> > >

> > > The SCD seriously reduces these benefits. And again, her

writings

> > > illustrate that Gottschall doesn't grasp the difference between

FOS

> > > and inulin (she figures elsewhere on the same page that inulin

is

> > > FOS) , and she certainly doesn't know that the various

prebiotics

> > > have differing properties in that they appeal to different

organisms.

> > > This is a key point.

> > >

> > > Another key point is that she found a GI specialist who agreed

with

> > > her, which isn't a surprise. But good GI specialists around the

world

> > > often read the literature in their own peer-reviewed journals,

and

> > > revise their opinions based on these. These journal articles,

their

> > > guidelines, are overwhelmingly positive for the use of

prebiotics,

> > > particularly inulin, even though I can acknowledge that a few

of the

> > > references point out that FOS (not inulin) can be problematic on

> > > occasion.

> > >

> > > But specifically to your/her reference to clostridia growing on

short-

> > > chain FOS, yes, some strains do, but don't be as confused as

she is

> > > by thinking FOS is the same thing as inulin. Clostridia doesn't

grow

> > > on the longer-chained inulin, as many other studies have shown.

On

> > > the other hand, a strain clostridia is used commercially to

grow on

> > > cellulose, which is plentiful in the SCD, and it and e. coli

are the

> > > most likely causes of diarrhea in some people who don't seen to

> > > tolerate salad.

> > >

> > > We who have read the research (that to be fair to Gottschall

perhaps

> > > didn't all exist when was studying carbohydrates) know FOS can

be

> > > problematic, and we know inulin is less so, and we know

specifically

> > > which bacteria can or can not use each type of prebiotic,

because

> > > these studies have been published. This is important, because

now we

> > > can drop the ham-handed approach and get to very specific

> > > applications with a prebiotic.

> > >

> > > It's pretty clear that key research with graphs and chart and

all

> > > that has not appealed to a few people, so they might go ahead

and

> > > follow someone else's erroneous opinion that is based on flawed

> > > assumptions.

> > >

> > > I have clients who had crohn's and colitis due to chronic bowel

> > > dysbiosis, who modified the SCD approach and got results in

three

> > > months that they never saw in their six years on the diet. I

say, why

> > > waste your time finding out if the restrictive SCD dogma will

work

> > > over the years, if you can cleanse and do liver flushes, and

support

> > > correct bowel bacteria to get a positive result in three months

or

> > > sometimes less?

> > >

> > > See what I'm getting at? I think we can agree the information

was

> > > presented well, that it exists and is solid, and the reasons

for not

> > > approaching bowel health in this way are weak arguments.

> > >

> > > Duncan Crow

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I too have healed my system without using a long term host of

supplements. Like G, I follow a protocol that provides life long

health (if it is followed) at a very minimal expense. I was ill for

a long time and now, am basically symptom free.

The dogma (definition: 1 a : something held as an established

opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of

such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put

forth as authoritative without adequate grounds) of scientific

research of a product can be impressive to someone who is looking for

an answer or a quick solution. Although I have learned a few things

from the studies presented, I still strongly feel that although

supplement products may play a role INITIALLY in a healing regimen to

provide TEMPORARY relief of the types of illnesses found here within

our group, it is still not the COMPLETE answer. Without the

cleanses, flushes, lifestyle and dietary adjustments one could

conceivably need to stay on supplements for a very long time, not

unlike pharmaceuticals.

I have opted for taking this path and am happy that I did. I am so

happy with the results, that is why I stay here, to help others

because of my experience with having recovered from the illness. I

can only offer support, positive encouragement, guidance to what has

really worked well for me and a lot of others here and at

curezone.com.

I do not feel it is negative for people to debate an issue for which

they feel passionate, but critical that important information be

imparted when it will benefit the group members.

I am aware not everyone is ready to see the same things I see at the

same time I do. No judgment. Neither my ego or my wallet will be

damaged or strained in any way if someone chooses to use a method

other than the one in which I have experience.

So for now, G, and the many others who have gotten better will

continue to tell how we did it and keep on referring anyone who is

interested to the materials.

Love & Light

Deborah

[Guest guest]

> Dissinterested because you can get all the inulin you need from

food,

> without paying outrageous amounts a frankerfood version of it. And, in

> food form, it is natural, balenced and healthy.

Now really, , stating that a simple dried vegetable broth is a

frankenfood is going to far for any rational being.

In food form it is balanced and I'm the first to say that in a

healthy bowel it would be the prefered form and you can get all you

need IF you make those foods your staple diet...

BUT in a situation of bowel dysbiosis, which most people are on this

list to cure, some of the vegetables that contain inulin contain

quite a lot of natural sugar, and also, people aren't for the most

part prone to changing diet that drastically even to get well. In my

opinion these salient facts should be included in the 'do I or don't

I' formula.

Overall, I'm glad for your 'devil's advocate approach' and the

opportunity you present to get people to think about their choices,

even if they don't choose to contribute. Perhaps we should include

our discourse in the files section of the group if we have such.

regards,

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

>

> Wow! I am new to this list and you all are way over my head. Can

> someone help me please with some questions I have. Maybe steer me in

> the right direction to find

Hi

We've come a long way in the last few months. Anyone disagree?

Anyway, don't be disheartened by the detail and hang on; you'll need

to know this material and pass it on to your children.

Duncan

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeanne,

I have had two vaginal yeast infections in my life, one when I was 18 & one when I was 40 something. It took me a long time to realize that yeast was what was causing my problems because of this. I was rather narrow-minded as are most doctors. I had the body odor, the digestive and various other problems. The only was I figured out it was yeast was because I had the white patches in my mouth, the doctor put me on an anti-biotic and they got worse. I never went back to the doctor and started doing research on the internet and have since been treating myself.

One place I got alot of help on the beginning was at www.wholeapproach.com. They will answer your questions on their forum section even if you do not buy their products. It is also good to schroll through the archives and read the various posts.

Debbie

Wow! I am new to this list and you all are way over my head. Can someone help me please with some questions I have. Maybe steer me in the right direction to find info?I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER. My doctor thinks that is the only way I would have true Candida. After reading some lists of symptoms I am sure I have it or something.At times I would get this really wierd body odor that was almost like something rotten or garbage. Spaciness, numerous sinus infections, indigestion, red slimy patches of rashes under my breasts or in the thigh area. I have developed a lot of allergies and asthma.I also have difficulty losing weight and crave breads and chocolate.When I eat low carb I feel like crap for about 3 weeks and than I feel really good. A lot of my symptoms go away and I have so much

more energy. One little slip up and I am back again to the cravings etc.I am willing to do anything to get healthier. What advice can anyone give me? Where can I find a diet? Do I need to take Olive leaf extract or whatever? to help kill this or what?NOt trying to start another WAR but could someone or anyone point me in some direction, even if you all argue about it I would love to get some basic information.Jeanne in Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/25/04 7:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeannekrieg@... writes:

I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER. My doctor thinks that is the only way I would have true Candida. After reading some lists of symptoms I am sure I have it or something.

I has sever systemic candida and have never had a yeast infection. I was also told that you can only get candida in your vagina or throat, but that is not so. Different doctors, different opinions. Heck, men get it and they are missing one of those options.....

Hanida

[Guest guest]

Gigi,

Don't you love the medical profession! I don't go to DR. S anymore just because of that. I actually got into a fight with my OB DR last week, since they decided that I need a shot updated. Here I am two months pregnant and they want to give me a shot. I said no, and they did not take kindly to that. When I explained myself that I don't want the mercury in my system right now, they got even more upset. But being in the military health system, I can't up and change my Dr. so I am kind of stuck. Not a nice feeling. As for my candida, I don't dare mention it to them. I just use my naturopath I found in Texas, and try to self educate as much as I can. Luckily, most of my health problems went away when I got the yeast under control, so now I just have to fight with the OB DR.s

Hanida

[Guest guest]

Hanida,

I got a better one. My doctor said I absolutely did not have systemic candida...nor vaginal or rectal candida. After blood tests and cultures which cost in excess of $1000 - But when the itching came back she prescribed diflucan and a cream which I didnt get because it was $108 for the generic form...and it was an antifungal. I asked her why if I didnt have candida and she said..well maybe it will help anyway. I will not go back to her and everyone said she was so natural and I would love her. Oh and she gave my daughter a prescription for antibiotics for bronchitis. I asked if she thought it was bacterial instead of viral and she said..no I think it is probably viral but this will protect her from it being worse and might help anyway. I didnt fill it. I thought...geez. that was our last visit to her. I was going to mention the liver flush to her before that but thought better of it.

gigihspl28@... wrote:

In a message dated 3/25/04 7:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeannekrieg@... writes:

I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER. My doctor thinks that is the only way I would have true Candida. After reading some lists of symptoms I am sure I have it or something.I has sever systemic candida and have never had a yeast infection. I was also told that you can only get candida in your vagina or throat, but that is not so. Different doctors, different opinions. Heck, men get it and they are missing one of those options.....Hanida

[Guest guest]

Hanida,

I was told that men cannot have a yeast infection. Now I am sure that my ex

kept giving it back to me. I had mentioned this to the doctor and he kept

saying it was not possible.

Crapt.

Diane

----OriginalIn > I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER. My doctor

thinks that is

> the only way I would have true Candida. After reading some lists of

symptoms I

> am sure I have it or something.

>

I has sever systemic candida and have never had a yeast infection. I was

also told that you can only get candida in your vagina or throat, but that

is not

so. Different doctors, different opinions. Heck, men get it and they are

missing one of those options.....

Hanida

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hanida,

I guess I was lucky. I had a yeast infection for the first time when I was about 35. I told my doctor and not only did he suggest the cream which then I think was perscription. He told me if we were to have intercourse to put the cream on his penis. Of course he was a very old gynocogist who really knew his shit. I loved him. I went to him for everything. He never recommended antibiotics for me. I used to go to him like I did a GP.

He has long retired. I miss him.

gigiFree Minded <freeminded52@...> wrote:

Hanida,I was told that men cannot have a yeast infection. Now I am sure that my ex kept giving it back to me. I had mentioned this to the doctor and he kept saying it was not possible.Crapt.Diane----OriginalIn > I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER. My doctor thinks that is> the only way I would have true Candida. After reading some lists of symptoms I> am sure I have it or something.>I has sever systemic candida and have never had a yeast infection. I wasalso told that you can only get candida in your vagina or throat, but that is notso. Different doctors, different opinions. Heck, men get it and they aremissing one of those

options.....Hanida_________________________________________________________________Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSn Premium. Get 2months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca & page=byoa/prem & xAPID=1994 & DI=1034 & SU=http://hotmail.com/enca & HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines

[Guest guest]

GiGi,

Your ancient gyno propositioned you?!?

Just a little humor on your flush day ...

>

>

>

>

> Hanida,

>

> I was told that men cannot have a yeast infection. Now I am sure

that my ex

> kept giving it back to me. I had mentioned this to the doctor and

he kept

> saying it was not possible.

> Crapt.

>

> Diane

> ----OriginalIn > I have never had a vaginal yeast problem EVER.

My doctor

> thinks that is

> > the only way I would have true Candida. After reading some

lists of

> symptoms I

> > am sure I have it or something.

> >

>

> I has sever systemic candida and have never had a yeast

infection. I was

> also told that you can only get candida in your vagina or throat,

but that

> is not

> so. Different doctors, different opinions. Heck, men get it and

they are

> missing one of those options.....

>

> Hanida

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSn Premium.

Get 2months

> FREE*

> http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-

ca & page=byoa/prem & xAPID=1994 & DI=1034 & SU=http://hotmail.com/enca & HL=Ma

rket_MSNIS_Taglines

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/27/04 7:15:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, freeminded52@... writes:

I was told that men cannot have a yeast infection. Now I am sure that my ex

kept giving it back to me. I had mentioned this to the doctor and he kept

saying it was not possible.

That is so not true! Men might not get them like women do, but they do get prostitis, and sever urinary problems. My husband ended up peeing blood before the DR's acknowledge that there was something wrong. Did they say yeast? No. but I get really sick with candida and then he gets this. It did take months to get to the point where he was peeing blood, but eventually he got there. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to make a connection.

Plus my oldest son had a "yeast infection" when he was an infant. They were just red dots that would not heal all around his privates. I thought nothing of them until one Dr. pointed out that they were spreading, and that if left untreated he could become sterile. so they do know that yeast affects men.

Hanida

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/27/04 7:53:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, nydio@... writes:

Of course he was a very old gynocogist who really knew his shit.

Makes you wonder if "modern" medicine is really all that modern....

Hanida

[Guest guest]

Hanida,

I changed doctors when I was 8 months pregnant to the one I mentioned that I loved. I never regretted it and he was my doctor for about 6 years until he retired. I wanted the most important experience to be positive. I asked friends who had given birth at home who they used. He was willing to be a back up doctor and knew what he was doing. I would suggest you ask around from other who have had good experiences. There just may not be a great one in your area..so check before you change..Of course if it is too strssfull for you to change..just imagine it being a great experience.

Lots of luck and Happy Labor day! When are you due?

love to you and yours,

gigihspl28@... wrote:

Gigi,Don't you love the medical profession! I don't go to DR. S anymore just because of that. I actually got into a fight with my OB DR last week, since they decided that I need a shot updated. Here I am two months pregnant and they want to give me a shot. I said no, and they did not take kindly to that. When I explained myself that I don't want the mercury in my system right now, they got even more upset. But being in the military health system, I can't up and change my Dr. so I am kind of stuck. Not a nice feeling. As for my candida, I don't dare mention it to them. I just use my naturopath I found in Texas, and try to self educate as much as I can. Luckily, most of my health problems went away when I got the

yeast under control, so now I just have to fight with the OB DR.s Hanida