Guest guest Posted November 13, 1998 Report Share Posted November 13, 1998 Russ, The source of most of my research was obtained through PubMed, regarding your questions about diet and candidiasis, food intolerances and candidiasis, Nystatin, monolaurin, and c. albicans vaccination with same. From their home search page, just type in the key words of the type of studies you are looking for and you will find the answers you were looking to, mostly to the same questions I have had about candidiasis. Their URL is located at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ I find PubMed to be very helpful, and you can order the articles directly from them through your library or hospital, if you would like to see the complete study. I agree that it is often what these studies don't say, not just what they do, that we must question. Furthermore, I don:t have much faith that the American dairy and grains industries are interested in funding too much research that implicates them as culprits! It never ceases to amaze me the power of American agribusiness, and the big lie about calcium from milk products would head the list... but that is another problem. At any rate, I still believe that when one does secondary research like this, you have to first try to avoid advertisements, gather a round of info, then go back to those advertisements and double check them out thoroughly, too, in order to get the widest picture of available information.. Fortunately, there is a wide literature in existence about candidiasis, food, and treatments, and you can get the specifics by simply typing in the key words for the info you want from Pubmed, which for someone like myself in university abroad, is the best resource available--you can even find doctors that way. I think it is interesting that are so defensive of Mannatech. I really cannot personally testify for or against MLM products, yet, I have no reason to believe that it solves the basic problem which is the conditions which create systemic, chronic candidiasis. That is why I dont think it, alone, can cure candidiasis in individuals with chronic, systemic conditions. From what I understand, even though a number of products like you claim Ambrostose, appear to cure candidiasis short term, in the long term, factors such as diet and health, antibiotic/corticosteroid use, and vaccination against candida are more highly correlated than the one-time die off. I know that other remedies like Nystatin, fluconizole, monolaurin, pau d'arco geez...even garlic, can be very effective in treating candidiasis. However, if a combination of stressors are present after die off the candidiasis infection will reoccur. Just what those conditions are can vary from individual to individual; however a number have been indicated, and food intolerance is one which is very often mentioned by both researchers and, you got it, even those product pushers. Go ahead, look it up in pubmed! One way to prevent reoccurance, and one I would urge anyone on this list to pursue, is with a c. albicans homeopathic vaccination (again....just type in the key words above and you can read the research that is out there regarding c. albicans vaccination with same). The reason I take this position is based on the research regarding leaky gut syndrome, characteristic of people with candidiasis and food intolerances. Please remember that food intolerances are not the same as food allergies. When I speak of candidiasis as a symptom, not a cause, I speak from a holistic point of view whereby any unnatural imbalance --candida, diahrea, and headaches, for example, are considered a symptom, or response, to something harmful--some stressor. A similar analogy would be that of e.coli. We all have it in our gut, but yet we are not all getting sick from it. That is because our body is controlling its existence, keeping it in check from making us very sick. Candida of course exists in all normal people without overinfestation, i.e. people without candida infections or what is commonly known as " systemic candidiasis. " I thought that the problem occurs when there is an unbalance that occurs, and candida multiply, and there is an overinfestation--chronic, systemic candidiasis. Please correct me this if this is not correct. The problem with overinfestation is numbers--too much candida, not, for example, how big they are. It is an indication that the system is out of whack, due to the introduction of some stressor in the environment, such as through diet, corticosteroids, or antibiotics, or disease. For example, most AIDS patients eventually end up getting systemic candidiasis. This is because of the HIV virus and the inappropriate immune response. Not because of candidiasis per se, but because of inability to keep it in check. So from the holistic point of view, systemic candidiasis is the response to some invader, or stressor. Probably most of the people on the list contracted candidiasis after treatments or illnesses of this sort. (Some people even believe that modern vaccinations are a source of initial stressor). Many of us were no doubt born with it, but just hung in there all along thinking that this is the way that life is supposed to be! But it is not just one factor that is involved. Other factors must also be present. Specifically, when you consume a protein that you cannot digest, your autoimmune response is to attack that. In the gut, this leads to symptoms such as leaky gut. From what I understand, this is because your body, your immune system, attacked itself at the location of the foreign protein--in the gut. The proteins are no longer properly absorbed, but passed whole into the blood stream. So why is it that some people get overriden, infected with candidiasis, yet others don't? That is what I am implicating diet for. For one thing, human beings were not meant to eat a number of things depending on genetic makeup--they cannot digest certain proteins found in things such as gluten (gliadins) or dairy (whey, caseine). There is also individual consumption, health history, and genetic varity. There is an intricate relationship between candidiasis and leaky gut. It is typical of people with candidiasis to have leaky gut syndrome. Food intolerances are highly correlated with candidiasis (again, I refer you to pubmed...I can:t speak enough of their service, as they are non-biased and simply produce the library of research, and you can look for correlational studies there). I think it may be difficult to say for sure that one contracted candidiasis before leaky gut, or after. I think the relationship is key, tho, to defining systemic candidiasis. I definitley do not agree that it is so simple as " get rid of the cause of the problem, the body will heal itself, " if in this case is referring to " the problem " as being systemic, chronic candidiasis. In order to get rid of the candidiasis short term, you can use any number of remedies (and I really don:t care which one, as long as a knowledgeable practitioner advises you) but for the body to heal itself you will also have to limit the food proteins that you cannot digest. If you don't, you will perpetuate the leaky gut syndrome, and just provide food for candida growth. A number studies mentioned in pubmed talk about the relationship between candida and intolerable food proteins. Many people out there with candidiasis dont even know they have it. Nor do they know about their inability to digest certain proteins. They just think that people are supposed to live this way, because, you know, it can be a manageable thing...ask what AIDS people die of, its usually pneumonia or some other horrendus disease, and the candida is often considered secondary. Many people with candidiasis can be successful at getting rid of the problem of candidiasis initially, but if they are not aware of diet will be right back in the boat. Futhermore, where to start with the diet thing is unknown to most people, and also, it is not a blanket thing, it depends on the individual...tho most holistic practitioners will identify certain proteins based on genetic makeup, and glucose, sucrose and fructose. As I understand it, candidiasis forms roots in the wall of the intestine, opening pores large enough to let undigestible proteins (wheat, dairy) to pass into the blood system. This causes an immunological response, thus the " allergies " we all know too well. The Ig response to certain proteins can be specified in Ig tests.. At the same time, it is these exact same proteins that, because they cannot be digested and are therefore improperly broken down and absorbed, provide a key staple for candida. That is why many people will say that candida is a symptom, not a cause. A symptom of putting this foreign food into your body that you are not meant to eat, that you cannot digest in a healthy way, so you have to rely on a parasite to do it for you. Which would be better than just letting the proteins build in your system, I imagine. I think we would all be dead from toxicity if candida didn:t take care of them. From this point of view, I think is right...candida is a cause. But only one, and not even the key one. Stressors such as damaged gut, undigestible proteins (toxins), injury, antibiotics...shall I go on...these are the key just as much. Soon, because our intestines are not properly breaking down and absorbing foods, the whole autoimmune response is one that says basically " attack any danm thing you can at this point, cuz I cant digest it! " It recognizes all sorts of things as foreign and harmful. Candida is one thing that thrives on these proteins. But I know for myself I started having allergic type reactions to all kinds of things that didn:t use to bother me...dust mites, soaps. At any rate, since you can:t get rid of candida 100%, and people who are not infected and overrun by the stuff have it too, just not to the point of causing harm, I don:t think it is as easy as " rid of it and that:s all there is to it. " I think that to remain well, you must maintain a diet that strictly limits the ingestion of intolerable proteins...or you will be back to square one, in most cases. Of course, you could just take Ambrotose for the rest of your life and forget about the food intolerance connection! Just joking...but seriously, rather than look at things strictly as causes and symptoms, you brought up the important point, which is to look at the interrelationships. My comments were based on studies that repeatedly show correlations, not causes and effects: For example, the correlation between diet and leaky gut syndrome, candida and leaky gut syndrome, and both of these and autoimmune responses. Hope this clears up my position, and I am interested in learning more about how you have interpreted the cause of candidiasis. Judith Judith: >I have to agree with you about the commercialism. I mean, I think it:s good >to suggest products that are out there, but advertising rhetoric is a bit >mundane, and for advertisers benefit only. I was where you are in that I used to think this too because that was my experience and, being skeptical by nature, I was sure that everything was that way too. And I almost threw out the baby with the bathwater re Ambrotose. >Ambrotose is certainly not the only product that will " cure " candida. No one is claiming that Ambrotose is the ONLY efficaceous product for candida. > Infact, it wont cure it at all! People who are at risk for candida remain at risk, >even after a huge die off--and remain there for a long time. Please show me a scientific study that backs up your statement. In support of my claims, you may refer to the peer-reviewed report in Proceedings of the Fisher institute for Medical Research, Vol 1, No 2 Feb 1999. It is titled: Macrophage Candidicidal Activitity of a Complete Glyconutritional Formulation versus Aloe Polymannose. You may order a copy of this Volume by phoning 972-660-3219. No one has said that Ambrotose is the 'cure' for Candida. What ,I and others, have said is that the body heals itself IF it is given the raw materials to do the job. Also we have presented personal experiences to that fact. > >Curing a chronic disease like systemic candidiasis means getting to the root >of the problem, not just getting through the die off, or even die off and >rebuild stages. The key lies in maintainence. Ambrotose does nothing >special for die off because many other products are just as effective in >practice. And ambrotose does absolutely nothing to insure reoccurences wont >take place. Please present your peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back up your statement. >Other factors, such as eliminating foods which cause intolerances and simple >sugars (glucose, sucrose and fructose) by >themselves, have proven indespensible in long-term control of candidiasis. This has become the 'common' knowledge. >While Mannatech products, like many other products, This is where you make a mistake. These products are NOT like any other products - they are GLYCONUTRITIONALS. >are very successful at >helping destroy candida and other harmful (as well as good!) organisms, the >true treatment and long-term maintainance for candidiasis is diet. This is true as far as you take it. The problem with our diets is that generally foods are empty of the right raw materials that the body needs to heal itself. > >Pau d'arco and other natural remedies, combined with acidophilous, can also >be very successful. I know a number of list members have taken this in >rotation with other herbs. This can be just as successful as treating >with monosaccharides. (never take any of this stuff without the advice of a >knowledgeable practicianer). > >Monolaurin (lauricidin), a non-prescription, non-Mannatech non-patented >natural remedy is another example. It is far less expensive than Ambrotose, >and in fact it is just as effective at killing candidiasis. I would be interested to see the scientific research for this. > >Nystatin is a common allopathic remedy, and while it can be risky to the >liver (I would never take it again, but for healthy individuals it may be >okay) it proves very successful in killing candida. Drugs are always toxic. Inappropriate prescription / application of drugs is the 4th leading cause of death in North America. > >The reason why any of these remedies can work quite well is because when any >doctor sets you out to treat candidiasis, the anti-fungal agent is just an >accompanyment to the main changes, which are diet. People who do not >adhere to an anti-candida diet will rarely make it through the die off, and >certainly will remain infected. True. I agree 100%. And that is precisely the focus of and what the Mannatech products do -- improve one's diet - in ways that have never been seen before. > >In fact, numerous studies show that homeopathic remedies of live c. albicans >have not only excellent treatment records, but especially are effective in >preventing recurrences, something that people like most of us listmembers, >who have systemic candidiasis, should be MOST concerned with. Many of us >has done the diet, the die off...killed those '))%%)= s time and again with >verious remedies. But, killing >candidiasis for a few weeks can even become easy, and chronic, til it >reappears. Preventing reoccurences is far far more difficult than > " surrounding and killing candida " successfully and temporarily, even if >repeatedly, as ambrotose or monolaurin >or many other products would. This is why a vibrant vigorous immune system is the most important thing of all. The C. albicans infection is really only the symptom of a deeper problem - a dysfunctional immune system. > >What about prevention through vaccination with live candida, and what about >accepting the fact that you may need to make permanent changes to your diet? > >I think listmembers need to stop messing around with their health like its >some flippant thing, that eating some dairy products or sugar or whatever is >more important than being exceedingly strict in order treat and prevent >systemic candida. The Mannatech management and scientists would wholeheartedly agree with you. > Ultimately, it serves Mannatechs interests to promote the >glycemic index and the idea that you can eat whatever you want--because it >puts you at risk for prolonged and recurring treatment. The fact is that, >most people with systemic candida, by the time they know that is their >problem, have such messed up health that the road to full recovery only >begins with clearing up the candida. This statement is a clear example of your misunderstanding of the Mannatech mission and the intent of the company and its scientists. Ultimately it serves Mannatech best interests when people become well. I used to think as you do in this respect, until I looked into it and got to know them better. > >The candida is the symptom, not the >cause. For example, in my case, the cause is food intolerances and insulin >insensitivity. No this is not the cause. The cause is inadequacy in your food. It is deficient in the ingredients necessary to support a vibrant and vigorous immune system. Long ago it was stated " let you food be your medicine and let your medicine be your food " . > Mannatech cannot cure that. Only I can. Fortunately I know >how. I talk to people with diabetes and food intolerances like mine, people >who are very very sick from just eating a tiny bit of wheat. And I am not >rare. People of my ethnic background are very high on the list for wheat >and dairy intolerances. Look it up. Look up what casein, whey, and >gliadins are and what they are used in and who can't digest them and why. >Look up the symptoms of these intolerances. You will find, perhaps, that it is just >like what you have. Candidiasis is yet another symptom. These intolerances result from problems at the level of the cell - all 60 trillion of them. When the cells are healthy, the intolerances will clear up. The solution for healthy cells is in what you eat. Make sure it is all organically grown in soils where the bacteria are present that create the eight essential saccharides (the EES's) so the plants can absorb them, so you can eat them. Failing that, you can supplement your diet with them. However Mannatech is the ONLY supplier of these EES's in a dietary supplement form. >And why in the world anyone would want to keep eating some crap that makes >them sick in order to have to keep taking some product for 30 or 50 or 100 >dollars a month, Mannatech or other, is beyond me. When you spend $100 or $200 or whatever per month on food items at the store that are actually empty foods, are you getting what you are paying for? Far better to grow your own organically and preserve it for the wintertime. You and I both know a lot of people who regularly spend $5 a day on junk food, coffee, doughnuts, cigarettes, pop,etc. For LESS than that ($2.77 daily actually) they could be using, for example, Mannabars, that contain the full daily complement of glyconutrients, phytochemicals, and phytogenins (healing molecules derived from plants with reputations for healing) that would actually improve their health as the days go by. These Mannatech products could have been sold through stores. But that would have meant that extra costs would have to be paid, such as warehousing, transportation, overhead and retail profit. The savings in these areas now can be paid to the people who use the products and share them with others. That is why there are now many people like yourself who actually are getting their Mannatech products for FREE and, more than that, we are now able to get extra FREE product to share with those we love and care about. Show me a store that will do that for you !!! May God bless you as you look for answers that are suitable for you. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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