Polio

[Guest guest]

>

>March 28, 1996

>

>

>CONSUMER GROUP QUESTIONS USE OF ORAL POLIO VACCINE AFTER SCIENTIST

LINKS

>LIVE VIRAL VACCINE TO SICK GULF WAR VETERANS

>

>

>Washington,D.C. - March 28, 1996 - In response to today's release of a

>scientific study linking the oral polio vaccine (OPV) to Persian Gulf

War

>veterans suffering from immune system and neurological dysfunction, the

>National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is calling for an

investigation

>into the safety and effectiveness of the live polio vaccine including

its

>interaction with other vaccines, drugs and environmental toxins. The

>Washington, D.C. consumer advocacy organization founded in 1982

monitors

>vaccine research and policymaking and has testified at federal health

agency

>meetings and vaccine safety workshops that the live polio vaccines not

only

>causes polio disease but is contaminated with monkey viruses and should

be

>replaced with the killed, injectable polio vaccine grown on non-animal

>tissue cultures in the nation's vaccination program.

>

>

>At today's hearings of the Subcommittee on Human Resources and

>Intergovernmental Relations chaired by Congressman Shays

(R-CT),

>California microbiologist Urnovitz, Ph.D. presented evidence

from a

>serum survey of civilians and Gulf War veterans demonstrating that

deployed

>and non-deployed Gulf War veterans failed to mount a proper antibody

>response to polio serotype 2 and deployed veterans failed to mount a

proper

>antibody response to polio serotype 3 in contrast to normal antibody

>responses to oral polio vaccine in the civilian population surveyed.

Dr.

>Urnovitz pointed out that " failure to mount an antibody response to

live

>polio vaccine has also been observed in association with post-viral

fatigue

>syndrome illnesses, " a syndrome with immune and neurological

dysfunction

>symptoms closely mirroring those of sick Gulf War veterans.

>

>

>The Pentagon directed that military personnel heading for the Gulf

receive

>as many as 17 different live viral and killed bacterial vaccines

>simultaneously, including polio, cholera, hepatitis B, adenovirus,

>influenza, measles, mumps, rubella, meningococcus, plague, rabies,

tetanus,

>diphtheria, typhoid, yellow fever, anthrax, and the experimental

botulinium

>toxoid. In addition they were given the experimental drug

pyridostigmine

>bromide, a nerve agent. NVIC, which helped create the National

Childhood

>Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 setting up a federal compensation system for

>individuals injured by mandated vaccines, has been a vocal critic of

the

>lack of credible scientific studies supporting the safety of

simultaneous

>administration of multiple viral and bacterial vaccines and the lack of

>scientific studies to identify high risk populations.

>

>

> " The question that must be answered immediately, " said NVIC Co-founder

and

>President Barbara Loe Fisher, " is whether a significant minority of

Gulf

>War veterans responded with immune suppression to the potpourri of live

>viral and killed bacterial vaccines given to them and were subsequently

>vulnerable to further immune and neurological damage when they were

given

>drugs and came into contact with environmental toxins in the Gulf.

Official

>government recommendations for use of the live polio vaccine include a

>warning that persons with an immune system deficiency or those exposed

to

>drugs or treatments which suppresses the immune system should not

receive

>the live polio vaccine. There is legitimate cause for concern that

children

>who receive live polio vaccine in conjunction with other vaccines

and/or

>drugs may be vulnerable to environmental toxins such as pesticides or

other

>chemicals immediately after being vaccinated and their parent's should

be

>properly warned to protect them from possible exposure. "

>

>

>NVIC, which was contacted by more than 100,000 consumers last year, is

the

>oldest and largest organization representing consumers concerned about

>vaccine safety as well as parents of vaccine damaged children.

Dedicated to

>preventing vaccine injuries and deaths through public education, the

>organization is calling for a reprioritization of HHS funds to include

>funding of vaccine safety studies conducted by independent researchers

>outside of government or industry.

>

>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>----

>

>Barbara Loe Fisher, Co-Founder and President of the National Vaccine

>Information Center, was appointed to the Vaccine Safety Forum at the

>Institute of Medicine in the Spring of 1995. During that year and

during

>1996, she helped the Forum coordinate four vaccine safety workshops:

Polio

>Vaccines (June 7-8, 1995); Vaccine Adverse Event Detection and Response

>(Nov. 6, 1995); Vaccine Research Priorities (April 1, 1996); and

Vaccine

>Risk Communication (May 13, 1996). Her major contribution to the Forum

was

>to ensure that the public vaccine safety workshops included statements

by

>parents of children who were injured or died following vaccination as

well

>as statements by independent doctors presenting new research and

alternative

>viewpoints about vaccine safety issues.

>

>

>

>Presentation to the Institute of Medicine

>

>Vaccine Safety Forum

>

>Polio Vaccines

>

>June 7 and 8, 1995

>

>

>

>

>Statement of Kathi , Director and Co-Founder

>

>National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC)

>

>

>It was tragic to watch the video yesterday of the adults who contracted

>paralytic polio in the 1950's. Their experiences as victims of polio

disease

>are heartbreaking and compelling, just as the experiences of

Salamone

>and Lenita Schaeffer, who are victims of the live polio vaccine are

>heartbreaking and compelling. Polio is polio and the paralysis that

comes

>with it is devastating, whether it comes from the disease or the

vaccine.

>

>

>I don't have to go very far back into my family history to understand

the

>fear of parents in the 1950's who were desperate to protect their

children

>from polio. My parents enrolled my brother and sister in the polio

trials

>that were held in Vienna, Virginia. They were given buttons that said

they

>were " polio pioneers. "

>

>

>Today in 1995, as polio reportedly nears extinction, the risks of the

>disease in the United States have changed and so have the benefits of

the

>vaccine for many families. The Centers for Disease Control reports

there are

>about 10 cases of vaccine associated polio each year in the U.S. The

>National Vaccine Information Center takes issue with that figure

because it

>is well known that there is gross underreporting of adverse events

>associated with the administration of drugs and vaccines. In addition,

past

>studies as well as reports to our Center by parents of vaccine injured

>children have revealed misdiagnosis of neurological events which, in

fact,

>turn out to be polio vaccine-induced.

>

>

>The federal government's Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System has

many

>reports of children, parents and baby-sitters exhibiting paralysis and

other

>neurological symptoms following receipt of OPV or having come into

contact

>with a recently vaccinated child. VAERS also contains reports

describing

>children who exhibit paralysis after receiving live oral polio vaccine

and

>live MMR vaccine on one day, even though this practice is

contraindicated in

>manufacturer product inserts. There are families in our organization

whose

>children have suffered polio vaccine induced paralysis that was

originally

>blamed on the DPT vaccine and who did not get a correct diagnosis until

NVIC

>provided information that enabled doctors to make a correct diagnosis.

>

>

>The National Vaccine Information Center has been providing information

on

>vaccines and diseases to the public since 1982 and the parents who are

>contacting our organization, particularly in the last two years, are

>frustrated and angry. They are angry with doctors and health officials

who

>will not provide them with truthful information about disease and

vaccine

>risks. And they are angry that their right to exercise informed consent

when

>making vaccination decisions for their children is being taken away by

an

>oppressive mandatory vaccination system that includes charging parents

with

>child medical abuse for making independent vaccination decisions that

do not

>conform to government health agency recommendations. This includes

parents

>being denied the option of vaccinating their children with the

inactivated

>polio vaccine rather than the live oral polio vaccine which can give a

child

>or his parents polio.

>

>

>Another issue in the polio vaccine debate which concerns vaccine

consumers,

>particularly parents who are making vaccine decisions for their

children, is

>the issue of potential contamination of oral polio vaccine with monkey

>retroviruses. Three years ago in The Lancet, Walter described such

>contamination. A year ago the National Vaccine Information Center

requested

>that government health agencies release the results of independent

testing

>of current and archived oral polio vaccine stocks to refute the

evidence

>that the oral polio vaccine contains animal retroviruses which may be

>harmful to humans. To date, this evidence has not been released by the

>government.

>

>

>We had hoped that Mr. would be given the opportunity to present

his

>data at this workshop but, at the very least, there should be a

thorough

>review by vaccine policymakers of the disadvantages of using polio

vaccine

>grown on animal tissue cultures. We believe there should also be a

thorough

>review by the Institute of Medicine of whether or not government health

>agencies responsible for regulating vaccines as well as analyzing

reports of

>adverse events following vaccination are ethically constrained by the

>conflicting responsibility for promoting vaccination.

>

>

>Attitudes about health care are changing and, in 1995, more and more

parents

>are unwilling to blindly accept products as being risk free and they

are no

>longer blindly accepting the word of health officials and doctors

without

>first asking questions. Because mothers have sought the truth about

>breastfeeding during the past two decades, we now see the First Lady on

>television telling the American public that bottle feeding is not a

medical

>advance and that the natural way is the best way for most babies. Many

>mothers and fathers are choosing to deliver babies with midwives in the

home

>or in birthing centers without drugs. Others are choosing not to

circumcise.

>And others are using more natural preventative health care options such

as

>acupuncture, chiropractic and homeopathic to help keep themselves and

their

>children healthy.

>

>

>Parents today want to be part of the decision making process when it

comes

>to health care decisions for their children and mass vaccination

policies

>need to catch up with consumer needs and demands. Parents don't want to

be

>told they must put their baby's life on the line with a vaccine for

which

>they consider the risks to be too high. They believe they have as much

right

>to protect that baby from dying or being injured by a vaccine as they

do to

>protect that baby from dying or being injured by a disease.

>

>

>If the risks of polio disease have changed since the 1950's then

official

>recommendations for use of a vaccine that can give a child or his

parents

>polio should also change. Full, complete and honest information on

polio

>disease and polio vaccine options should be provided to parents before

a

>child is vaccinated and the parent should be allowed to make an

independent

>vaccination decision free from harassment by a doctor or a state health

>official. When it happens to your child, the risks are 100 percent and

it is

>the mother and father, not the doctor or health official, who lives

with the

>consequences of the vaccination decision that is made for a child.

>

>

>The National Vaccine Information Center believes that every life is

sacred

>and that if only one child or one mother could be saved by making

vaccine

>policy changes which more accurately reflect the epidemiologic reality

of

>polio disease today, then those changes should be made without delay.

To do

>anything less in the United States is, in our view, morally

unacceptable.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heard on a readio show today that in a 16 year study (1980-96) there

were 142 cases of polio reported in the US, of which 134 were caused

from the vaccine.

Also, wanted to correct something I said earlier.

That the DTaP produced less severe reactions, but mild reactions stayed

the same as the DTP. Actually, the opposite is true. Severe reactions

are the same, but there are supposed to be less of the " mild " reactions.

~~

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/4/00 3:40:39 PM GFT Standard Time, bunnfam@...

writes:

<<

Can you explain this to me? How do non vaccinated kids gain immunity?

Cyndy >>

Exposure to bodily fluids which contain the polio viruses(there are 3 strains

in the vaccine,no?)

So they are exposed,the virus gets into the digestive tract and multiplies(as

is the case with exposure to the wild type virus).

The majority of the time the body is able to handle the virus and the person

experiences symptoms no more server than a cold.

I believe I read in the OPV insert about the *benefit* of exposing those in

contact with a recently vaccinated child to the polio viruses,thereby

*passively vaccinating* those who would otherwise not get(or be

re-vaccinated) with the polio vaccine.

That is my thoughts on it.Correct me if I got something wrong.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/4/2000 7:40:53 AM Central Standard Time,

bunnfam@... writes:

<< passive immunity. >>

You are not vaccinated, but come into contact with the virus through a

vaccinated child and gain the antibodies that way. Your body will kick in

when exposed. However, as we know, it does backfire, and the unvaccinated

child will (just as vaccinated kids do) break out with the actual disease --

and the mutated forms of these diseases used in the vaccine are much worse

and severe than the wild forms they are trying to protect us from.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/30/00 8:48:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dbern@...

writes:

<< Old footage of health department programs for mosquito

eradication feature ddt trucks outfitted with " foggers " driving slowly

through

suburban neighborhoods in the middle of the afternoon, while kids frolicked

around lawn sprinklers. >>

i don't know if the same stuff was used in the late 60's early 70's, but when

we used to go camping, the trucks would drive thrut he campgrounds and me and

my brother and tons of other kids would run behind the trucks getting totally

saturated in the bug spray so that none of the bugs would bother us--we'd do

it everyday and then until we swam we'd be bug free <YIKES>.

can you imagine ??!!!!!!!!!!!! even if it was ddt, it can't have been

good!!! (

oh, poor me!!

brigit

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 01:06:07 EDT, you wrote:

>This came up in a recent conversation:

> I have a few AP friends who chose to vaccinate. They always tell me that

>the Polio vaccine is a God send that their parents remember knowing people

>who died of this and that if everyone in the US stopped vaccinating it would

>come back. Comments?

>

>.........Science 86, the publication of the prestigious American Association

>for the Advancement of Science: " European countries have eradicated polio

>without vaccinating everyone, Finland, for example, seemed to have wiped out

>polio when only a fraction of its population had been vaccinated. "

>..................

>

>http://www.gval.com/facts.

>

>Kendal

New cases of polio were in steep decline before the vaccination program was

started. Polio was at it's worst during the time when DDT was at it's highest

level of production and usage. In fact, it was used indiscriminately as a

miracle chemical. Old footage of health department programs for mosquito

eradication feature ddt trucks outfitted with " foggers " driving slowly through

suburban neighborhoods in the middle of the afternoon, while kids frolicked

around lawn sprinklers. For some reason, production and usage of ddt plummeted

in the early 50's and new polio cases plummeted then too. DDT is a central

nervous system poison, and polio seems to exhibit many of the characteristics of

a central nervous system poison.

I'm betting the polio epidemic was 90% ddt (or similar chemicals). Most polio

victims were never tested for the " virus " , and it was just assumed that certain

symptoms were classic symptoms of polio and this is called a " presumptive

diagnosis " . Most people are completely oblivious to the mass of confusion that

was going on back stage, while the public was presented a simple straight

forward picture. It was anything but simple and is still not clear what polio

is/was. DDT was banned in usa in the 70's, but production and distribution has

increased in some other countries, especially lesser developed countries. I'm

guessing India is one of those countries.

db

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info.

Kendal

[Guest guest]

Dave,

This is info I want to give someone (a few people, actually), and I'm wondering

if

you have a good reference for it. Thanks.

Dave Berntson wrote:

>

> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 01:06:07 EDT, you wrote:

>

> >This came up in a recent conversation:

> > I have a few AP friends who chose to vaccinate. They always tell me that

> >the Polio vaccine is a God send that their parents remember knowing people

> >who died of this and that if everyone in the US stopped vaccinating it would

> >come back. Comments?

> >

> >.........Science 86, the publication of the prestigious American Association

> >for the Advancement of Science: " European countries have eradicated polio

> >without vaccinating everyone, Finland, for example, seemed to have wiped out

> >polio when only a fraction of its population had been vaccinated. "

> >..................

> >

> >http://www.gval.com/facts.

> >

> >Kendal

> New cases of polio were in steep decline before the vaccination program was

> started. Polio was at it's worst during the time when DDT was at it's highest

> level of production and usage. In fact, it was used indiscriminately as a

> miracle chemical. Old footage of health department programs for mosquito

> eradication feature ddt trucks outfitted with " foggers " driving slowly through

> suburban neighborhoods in the middle of the afternoon, while kids frolicked

> around lawn sprinklers. For some reason, production and usage of ddt

plummeted

> in the early 50's and new polio cases plummeted then too. DDT is a central

> nervous system poison, and polio seems to exhibit many of the characteristics

of

> a central nervous system poison.

> I'm betting the polio epidemic was 90% ddt (or similar chemicals). Most polio

> victims were never tested for the " virus " , and it was just assumed that

certain

> symptoms were classic symptoms of polio and this is called a " presumptive

> diagnosis " . Most people are completely oblivious to the mass of confusion

that

> was going on back stage, while the public was presented a simple straight

> forward picture. It was anything but simple and is still not clear what polio

> is/was. DDT was banned in usa in the 70's, but production and distribution

has

> increased in some other countries, especially lesser developed countries. I'm

> guessing India is one of those countries.

> db

[Guest guest]

>Interesting..... My uncle fell ill about two months ago. It started out with

>him loosing his strength to the point that he could not lift his dinner

>plate. He steadily got worse, loosing his ablity to walk and later to even

>lift his head. During this time he was being seen by his doctor who was

>testing him for all kinds of things. Finally, he was admitted to the

>hospital and has spent the last couple of weeks going through every test

>imaginable. It still hasn't been confirmed but now they have decided it is

>polio. My uncle is a retired military colonel in his late 60's. Unless, this

>is one of those cases where it is labeled polio just because of the

>paralysis, I found it odd that this is what they have decided on. Of course,

>being in the military, who knows what he has been exposed to!!!

>

>Katrina

>_________________________________________________________________

Anymore on your uncle?

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

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[Guest guest]

> Fio, Would you be willing to ask your mom if she knows if she had had

> prior to getting polio either an injection of antibiotics, an

> injection of vaccine, and/or a tonsillectomy? Sandy from Alaska

I'll ask abt. the abx (nak here, sorry), but i know she never had

tonsillectomy & she was before the vax time for polio (or do you mean

other vaxes too?). i know she was mighty lucky that she can walk today

because she was paralyzed from the waist down & would have stayed that

way if her dad hadn't been a prominant man in the medical world who had

had polio himself at 10 yrs. & believed in ( & enrolled her in) the " new "

programme of exercising the affected limbs, at G.F. Strong hosp. in

Vancouver canada. i know a lot of other people who had polio in 52 were

more badly affected than my mom was because they didn't get any

exercise; they were cared for in the " traditional " way: don't let them

move at all if possible.

My grandfather is still alive today, but walks with a major limp & he

curses Salk daily for not having gotten his vax out abt. 3 (?) yrs.

earlier, so he could get his kids vaxed against this monster disease

that he had had as a boy and knew all too well the possibe effects

thereof. :-( I realize that the first vax was not 100% effective

anyhow, & that there would have been a chance that my mom got polio

anyhow. I do wonder often though what would be diff. in her life had

she had the vax & not gotten polio, YK? My grandfather & mom R very

pro-vax, I think mainly because of the polio. To begin with I said to

my mom I'd hold off on vaxing my DD until she was eating solids (no

longer 100% bf) & then I'd vax selectively, probably Polio (IPV) & HiB

only. She seemed " satisfied " with that idea, knowing that in the event

of infection of various diseases, my milk would give DD antibodies.

However, the more I think about it the more I don't want to do any of

them really. I do not think Polio is prevalant enough to warrant vaxing

against it, even if my mom & grandfather did (still do) suffer badly

because of Polio. :-( I do think that HiB is a legitimite (sp?) worry,

but again, I don't think that Meningitis is around *enough* (even though

it is moreso than Polio) to inject the things like thimerisol etc. into

DD. :-( Just recently there has been a lot of talk on the news about

Meningitis & massive vax campaigns...they want to vax *every* child in

school from 5-19 yrs. of age...but the vax they're still using (the HiB

regular vax) is not even the " right " one for the cases of meningitis

that are popping up all around, which is a new variety. So I figure

what's the point...

Anyhow, I am comfortable with DD's safety in general, but I do have a

hard time with the fact that I know my mom does not approve of her not

being vaxed. I know there are others whose families don't approve

either...but my mom and I are so often on the same wavelength, we'Re

really close, she bf me when I was a baby etc., I don't like the fact

that she's disappointed in something about me...even if it's something I

feel I have to do for my DD's safety. :-( It's such a " tearing "

decision in some ways. :-(

Sorry, I was longer than I thought I'd be.

Fio.

[Guest guest]

Fio, It's always hard to have different opinions than the people you love and

respect. I guess all you can do is keep informing yourself.

When I asked if your mom might have had an injection, I meant of other vaccines.

There is a well-documented phenomenon called " provocation polio " which is caused

by injections of vaccines, and particularly known to be caused by DPT. After

reading much about it, I also speculated that antibiotic injection might also

cause polio, and sure enough, in the mid '90s, there was a New England Journal

of Medicine article in which 1/3 of the cases of polio were attributed to

injections of antibiotics (I think it was in Rumania). So that is why I asked.

So tonisillectomies and certain injections are known to predispose you to polio.

Polio declined around the time routine tonsillectomies and routine injections of

antibiotics also declined, I believe, (this is something I need to research

further). So it could be that their decline had more to do with the decline in

polio than the vaccine did.

The idea is that something about getting injections or tonsillectomies impairs

the immune system, which allows polio to become more serious for those people.

Most people when exposed to the polio virus get it without showing hardly any

symptoms. Maybe a cold. Maybe nothing. (Estimates, I believe, are that 1/1000

to 1/5000 exposed to the polio virus get really sick with it.) So the question

in my mind should be, why did those people get really sick, and why do most

people show few, if any, symptoms? For me the question should be, how do we

prevent those few people from getting sick without putting at risk the vast

majority?

Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you find out. Thanks, Fio. Sandy from

Alaska

ALL INFORMATION, DATA, AND MATERIAL CONTAINED, PRESENTED, OR PROVIDED

HERE IS FOR GENERAL INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED

AS REFLECTING THE KNOWLEDGE OR OPINIONS OF THE PUBLISHER, AND IS NOT TO

BE CONSTRUED OR INTENDED AS PROVIDING MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION

WHETHER OR NOT TO VACCINATE IS AN IMPORTANT AND COMPLEX ISSUE

AND SHOULD BE MADE BY YOU, AND YOU ALONE, IN CONSULTATION WITH YOUR

HEALTH CARE PROVIDER.

Re: Polio

> Fio, Would you be willing to ask your mom if she knows if she had had

> prior to getting polio either an injection of antibiotics, an

> injection of vaccine, and/or a tonsillectomy? Sandy from Alaska

I'll ask abt. the abx (nak here, sorry), but i know she never had

tonsillectomy & she was before the vax time for polio (or do you mean

other vaxes too?). i know she was mighty lucky that she can walk today

because she was paralyzed from the waist down & would have stayed that

way if her dad hadn't been a prominant man in the medical world who had

had polio himself at 10 yrs. & believed in ( & enrolled her in) the " new "

programme of exercising the affected limbs, at G.F. Strong hosp. in

Vancouver canada. i know a lot of other people who had polio in 52 were

more badly affected than my mom was because they didn't get any

exercise; they were cared for in the " traditional " way: don't let them

move at all if possible.

My grandfather is still alive today, but walks with a major limp & he

curses Salk daily for not having gotten his vax out abt. 3 (?) yrs.

earlier, so he could get his kids vaxed against this monster disease

that he had had as a boy and knew all too well the possibe effects

thereof. :-( I realize that the first vax was not 100% effective

anyhow, & that there would have been a chance that my mom got polio

anyhow. I do wonder often though what would be diff. in her life had

she had the vax & not gotten polio, YK? My grandfather & mom R very

pro-vax, I think mainly because of the polio. To begin with I said to

my mom I'd hold off on vaxing my DD until she was eating solids (no

longer 100% bf) & then I'd vax selectively, probably Polio (IPV) & HiB

only. She seemed " satisfied " with that idea, knowing that in the event

of infection of various diseases, my milk would give DD antibodies.

However, the more I think about it the more I don't want to do any of

them really. I do not think Polio is prevalant enough to warrant vaxing

against it, even if my mom & grandfather did (still do) suffer badly

because of Polio. :-( I do think that HiB is a legitimite (sp?) worry,

but again, I don't think that Meningitis is around *enough* (even though

it is moreso than Polio) to inject the things like thimerisol etc. into

DD. :-( Just recently there has been a lot of talk on the news about

Meningitis & massive vax campaigns...they want to vax *every* child in

school from 5-19 yrs. of age...but the vax they're still using (the HiB

regular vax) is not even the " right " one for the cases of meningitis

that are popping up all around, which is a new variety. So I figure

what's the point...

Anyhow, I am comfortable with DD's safety in general, but I do have a

hard time with the fact that I know my mom does not approve of her not

being vaxed. I know there are others whose families don't approve

either...but my mom and I are so often on the same wavelength, we'Re

really close, she bf me when I was a baby etc., I don't like the fact

that she's disappointed in something about me...even if it's something I

feel I have to do for my DD's safety. :-( It's such a " tearing "

decision in some ways. :-(

Sorry, I was longer than I thought I'd be.

Fio.

[Guest guest]

One thought I always try to keep in mind is that I have to parent my

daughter- not in terms of what I didn't get or wish I'd had, not in terms of

what my parents wanted and didn't get, but in terms of what SHE needs. So

often I think we are tempted to parent in reverse- make sure we give our

children what WE needed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if

others in your family would have benfitted from the vax, you still have to

decide what you believe is honestly right for your daughter. Family history

is so valid and so important. And obviously everyone in your family wants

the same outcome. What a tough thing to have to sort out. I wish you all

the best in making your decisions.

Peace,

Kelli

Re: Polio

> > Fio, Would you be willing to ask your mom if she knows if she had had

> > prior to getting polio either an injection of antibiotics, an

> > injection of vaccine, and/or a tonsillectomy? Sandy from Alaska

> I'll ask abt. the abx (nak here, sorry), but i know she never had

> tonsillectomy & she was before the vax time for polio (or do you mean

> other vaxes too?). i know she was mighty lucky that she can walk today

> because she was paralyzed from the waist down & would have stayed that

> way if her dad hadn't been a prominant man in the medical world who had

> had polio himself at 10 yrs. & believed in ( & enrolled her in) the " new "

> programme of exercising the affected limbs, at G.F. Strong hosp. in

> Vancouver canada. i know a lot of other people who had polio in 52 were

> more badly affected than my mom was because they didn't get any

> exercise; they were cared for in the " traditional " way: don't let them

> move at all if possible.

>

> My grandfather is still alive today, but walks with a major limp & he

> curses Salk daily for not having gotten his vax out abt. 3 (?) yrs.

> earlier, so he could get his kids vaxed against this monster disease

> that he had had as a boy and knew all too well the possibe effects

> thereof. :-( I realize that the first vax was not 100% effective

> anyhow, & that there would have been a chance that my mom got polio

> anyhow. I do wonder often though what would be diff. in her life had

> she had the vax & not gotten polio, YK? My grandfather & mom R very

> pro-vax, I think mainly because of the polio. To begin with I said to

> my mom I'd hold off on vaxing my DD until she was eating solids (no

> longer 100% bf) & then I'd vax selectively, probably Polio (IPV) & HiB

> only. She seemed " satisfied " with that idea, knowing that in the event

> of infection of various diseases, my milk would give DD antibodies.

> However, the more I think about it the more I don't want to do any of

> them really. I do not think Polio is prevalant enough to warrant vaxing

> against it, even if my mom & grandfather did (still do) suffer badly

> because of Polio. :-( I do think that HiB is a legitimite (sp?) worry,

> but again, I don't think that Meningitis is around *enough* (even though

> it is moreso than Polio) to inject the things like thimerisol etc. into

> DD. :-( Just recently there has been a lot of talk on the news about

> Meningitis & massive vax campaigns...they want to vax *every* child in

> school from 5-19 yrs. of age...but the vax they're still using (the HiB

> regular vax) is not even the " right " one for the cases of meningitis

> that are popping up all around, which is a new variety. So I figure

> what's the point...

>

> Anyhow, I am comfortable with DD's safety in general, but I do have a

> hard time with the fact that I know my mom does not approve of her not

> being vaxed. I know there are others whose families don't approve

> either...but my mom and I are so often on the same wavelength, we'Re

> really close, she bf me when I was a baby etc., I don't like the fact

> that she's disappointed in something about me...even if it's something I

> feel I have to do for my DD's safety. :-( It's such a " tearing "

> decision in some ways. :-(

>

> Sorry, I was longer than I thought I'd be.

>

> Fio.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My father believes his bout with polio was brought on by a barrage of

vaccines he received in the army, before the polio vaccine was introduced.

He spent 3 months in an iron lung, lost muscle in his chest and left arm

(can't lift his arms above his head) and was kicked out of the army. He is

still battling w/them over the cause of his polio.

In spite of this, he is still very pro vaccine and doesn't understand my

position, but my mom does. She's the one who bought me the book by Dr

Mendelsohn (How to Raise...) when I had my first baby in 1984.

>From: " Sandy Mintz " <sandym@...>

>Reply-Vaccinations

><Vaccinations >

>Subject: Re: Polio

>Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:47:05 -0800

>

>Fio, It's always hard to have different opinions than the people you love

>and respect. I guess all you can do is keep informing yourself.

>

>When I asked if your mom might have had an injection, I meant of other

>vaccines. There is a well-documented phenomenon called " provocation polio "

>which is caused by injections of vaccines, and particularly known to be

>caused by DPT. After reading much about it, I also speculated that

>antibiotic injection might also cause polio, and sure enough, in the mid

>'90s, there was a New England Journal of Medicine article in which 1/3 of

>the cases of polio were attributed to injections of antibiotics (I think it

>was in Rumania). So that is why I asked.

>

>So tonisillectomies and certain injections are known to predispose you to

>polio. Polio declined around the time routine tonsillectomies and routine

>injections of antibiotics also declined, I believe, (this is something I

>need to research further). So it could be that their decline had more to

>do with the decline in polio than the vaccine did.

>

>The idea is that something about getting injections or tonsillectomies

>impairs the immune system, which allows polio to become more serious for

>those people. Most people when exposed to the polio virus get it without

>showing hardly any symptoms. Maybe a cold. Maybe nothing. (Estimates, I

>believe, are that 1/1000 to 1/5000 exposed to the polio virus get really

>sick with it.) So the question in my mind should be, why did those people

>get really sick, and why do most people show few, if any, symptoms? For me

>the question should be, how do we prevent those few people from getting

>sick without putting at risk the vast majority?

>

>Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you find out. Thanks, Fio. Sandy

>from Alaska

>

>ALL INFORMATION, DATA, AND MATERIAL CONTAINED, PRESENTED, OR PROVIDED

>HERE IS FOR GENERAL INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED

>AS REFLECTING THE KNOWLEDGE OR OPINIONS OF THE PUBLISHER, AND IS NOT TO

>BE CONSTRUED OR INTENDED AS PROVIDING MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

>DECISION WHETHER OR NOT TO VACCINATE IS AN IMPORTANT AND COMPLEX ISSUE

>AND SHOULD BE MADE BY YOU, AND YOU ALONE, IN CONSULTATION WITH YOUR

>HEALTH CARE PROVIDER.

>

>

>

> Re: Polio

>

>

> > Fio, Would you be willing to ask your mom if she knows if she had had

> > prior to getting polio either an injection of antibiotics, an

> > injection of vaccine, and/or a tonsillectomy? Sandy from Alaska

> I'll ask abt. the abx (nak here, sorry), but i know she never had

> tonsillectomy & she was before the vax time for polio (or do you mean

> other vaxes too?). i know she was mighty lucky that she can walk today

> because she was paralyzed from the waist down & would have stayed that

> way if her dad hadn't been a prominant man in the medical world who had

> had polio himself at 10 yrs. & believed in ( & enrolled her in) the " new "

> programme of exercising the affected limbs, at G.F. Strong hosp. in

> Vancouver canada. i know a lot of other people who had polio in 52 were

> more badly affected than my mom was because they didn't get any

> exercise; they were cared for in the " traditional " way: don't let them

> move at all if possible.

>

> My grandfather is still alive today, but walks with a major limp & he

> curses Salk daily for not having gotten his vax out abt. 3 (?) yrs.

> earlier, so he could get his kids vaxed against this monster disease

> that he had had as a boy and knew all too well the possibe effects

> thereof. :-( I realize that the first vax was not 100% effective

> anyhow, & that there would have been a chance that my mom got polio

> anyhow. I do wonder often though what would be diff. in her life had

> she had the vax & not gotten polio, YK? My grandfather & mom R very

> pro-vax, I think mainly because of the polio. To begin with I said to

> my mom I'd hold off on vaxing my DD until she was eating solids (no

> longer 100% bf) & then I'd vax selectively, probably Polio (IPV) & HiB

> only. She seemed " satisfied " with that idea, knowing that in the event

> of infection of various diseases, my milk would give DD antibodies.

> However, the more I think about it the more I don't want to do any of

> them really. I do not think Polio is prevalant enough to warrant vaxing

> against it, even if my mom & grandfather did (still do) suffer badly

> because of Polio. :-( I do think that HiB is a legitimite (sp?) worry,

> but again, I don't think that Meningitis is around *enough* (even though

> it is moreso than Polio) to inject the things like thimerisol etc. into

> DD. :-( Just recently there has been a lot of talk on the news about

> Meningitis & massive vax campaigns...they want to vax *every* child in

> school from 5-19 yrs. of age...but the vax they're still using (the HiB

> regular vax) is not even the " right " one for the cases of meningitis

> that are popping up all around, which is a new variety. So I figure

> what's the point...

>

> Anyhow, I am comfortable with DD's safety in general, but I do have a

> hard time with the fact that I know my mom does not approve of her not

> being vaxed. I know there are others whose families don't approve

> either...but my mom and I are so often on the same wavelength, we'Re

> really close, she bf me when I was a baby etc., I don't like the fact

> that she's disappointed in something about me...even if it's something I

> feel I have to do for my DD's safety. :-( It's such a " tearing "

> decision in some ways. :-(

>

> Sorry, I was longer than I thought I'd be.

>

> Fio.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That is bizarre, he gets polio but still is for vaccines. Hmm.

My ex got polio from the vaccine, he is totally against them

but we never had children together. With mine now, (we are

still friends, all of us now) he is always saying, " don't you dare

vaccinate those kids! " that also helped with my husband.

Petric

Hornell, NY

Re: Polio

> >

> >

> > > Fio, Would you be willing to ask your mom if she knows if she had

had

> > > prior to getting polio either an injection of antibiotics, an

> > > injection of vaccine, and/or a tonsillectomy? Sandy from Alaska

> > I'll ask abt. the abx (nak here, sorry), but i know she never had

> > tonsillectomy & she was before the vax time for polio (or do you mean

> > other vaxes too?). i know she was mighty lucky that she can walk

today

> > because she was paralyzed from the waist down & would have stayed that

> > way if her dad hadn't been a prominant man in the medical world who

had

> > had polio himself at 10 yrs. & believed in ( & enrolled her in) the

" new "

> > programme of exercising the affected limbs, at G.F. Strong hosp. in

> > Vancouver canada. i know a lot of other people who had polio in 52

were

> > more badly affected than my mom was because they didn't get any

> > exercise; they were cared for in the " traditional " way: don't let

them

> > move at all if possible.

> >

> > My grandfather is still alive today, but walks with a major limp & he

> > curses Salk daily for not having gotten his vax out abt. 3 (?) yrs.

> > earlier, so he could get his kids vaxed against this monster disease

> > that he had had as a boy and knew all too well the possibe effects

> > thereof. :-( I realize that the first vax was not 100% effective

> > anyhow, & that there would have been a chance that my mom got polio

> > anyhow. I do wonder often though what would be diff. in her life had

> > she had the vax & not gotten polio, YK? My grandfather & mom R very

> > pro-vax, I think mainly because of the polio. To begin with I said to

> > my mom I'd hold off on vaxing my DD until she was eating solids (no

> > longer 100% bf) & then I'd vax selectively, probably Polio (IPV) & HiB

> > only. She seemed " satisfied " with that idea, knowing that in the

event

> > of infection of various diseases, my milk would give DD antibodies.

> > However, the more I think about it the more I don't want to do any of

> > them really. I do not think Polio is prevalant enough to warrant

vaxing

> > against it, even if my mom & grandfather did (still do) suffer badly

> > because of Polio. :-( I do think that HiB is a legitimite (sp?)

worry,

> > but again, I don't think that Meningitis is around *enough* (even

though

> > it is moreso than Polio) to inject the things like thimerisol etc.

into

> > DD. :-( Just recently there has been a lot of talk on the news about

> > Meningitis & massive vax campaigns...they want to vax *every* child in

> > school from 5-19 yrs. of age...but the vax they're still using (the

HiB

> > regular vax) is not even the " right " one for the cases of meningitis

> > that are popping up all around, which is a new variety. So I figure

> > what's the point...

> >

> > Anyhow, I am comfortable with DD's safety in general, but I do have a

> > hard time with the fact that I know my mom does not approve of her not

> > being vaxed. I know there are others whose families don't approve

> > either...but my mom and I are so often on the same wavelength, we'Re

> > really close, she bf me when I was a baby etc., I don't like the fact

> > that she's disappointed in something about me...even if it's something

I

> > feel I have to do for my DD's safety. :-( It's such a " tearing "

> > decision in some ways. :-(

> >

> > Sorry, I was longer than I thought I'd be.

> >

> > Fio.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My friend's mother had polio. She was in a wheelchair and had little

use of her legs. She caught it as a teenager, I think, and went on to

marry and have three adorable children with no problems.

The OPV was the first vaccine that raised questions for me, actually...I

read an article about people catching polio from the oral vaccine; the

author pointed out that the injectible vaccine would not cause polio,

but doctors didn't like to give it because the oral was easier...and

cheaper! When I asked the doctor for the injectible for Josh, even

offering to pay for it, they actually put up a bit of a fuss, wondering

why I wanted my child to have another shot when he didn't have to.

First of all, how ironic, since my third is scheduled for perhaps 10

more shots than Josh was, and the nurses don't seem bothered a bit!

More importantly, it was the ATTITUDE of the staff that started putting

me on guard about vaccines...secretive, judgmental, pushy, denying...and

that was just at my request for a SAFER version.

[Guest guest]

I saw a news statement that it was traced back to an OPV in

Europe. I'll see if I can find the link and repost it.

honestly, it has me concerned, too. My 3 yr old has never been

vaccinated. We live in a highly migrant school district. My 3rd grade

daughter became a peer tutor for Iuba (sp?) she thought was from

Mexico, lol. Her teacher told me he's from Liberia. Made me think what

if these kids get the OPV then hop a plane and land in our school,

going potty in the same places as my unvaccinated child. I've always

said the decision to vaccinate/not vaccinate is not one taken lightly

by me, I've researched it out the wazzoo and don't feel completely

thrilled with my children not being vaccinated, yet feel more

compelled that vaccinating would not be the best health interest of

them, either. In fact, my 3 yr old has a mild language delay. The

people who tested her at Child Find were also Allie's assessment team.

Many have stated, " I wonder if she had got a vaccine if she would have

autism. Maybe that's what kept her from going over the autism line... "

Debi

>

> Does anyone know whats really going on in the Amish community. I

don't trust

> a think the New York Times medical department would print. But I can

tell

> you this...they are scaring mothers all over Brazil......

>

> Mark

>

[Guest guest]

Thu Oct 13, 3:45 PM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Four children in two Amish families in Minnesota

have been infected with polio after not being vaccinated against the

disease, probably for religious reasons, state health officials said

on Thursday.

ADVERTISEMENT

click here

Genetic testing shows the polio involved likely originated overseas in

an infant who had been vaccinated with a live polio virus, state

epidemiologist Dr. Harry Hull said. That kind of vaccine has not been

used in the United States for five years.

He said a Minnesota Amish infant who was first diagnosed with polio in

September would have had direct contact with someone exposed to the

imported virus, perhaps through a chain of people.

Three other children, all members of a second Amish family, have now

been found to be infected with the virus. None of the four has shown

signs of paralysis, the Minnesota Department of Health said.

" Disease investigators say there are direct links between the family

of the three children and the family of an infant found to be infected

with the virus at the end of September. The two families are not

related by blood, " the department said.

Hull said in an interview that the Amish community in Minnesota, like

others spread across the United States, is insular, operating its own

schools and often refusing vaccinations for religious reasons.

" This is very unusual, " he said. " Our concern is that since the virus

has started to spread there is the potential for it to spread to other

Amish communities across the country, " he added.

The Amish are descendants of the Swiss Anabaptists who eschew modern

devices such as motorized vehicles and live in rural areas.

An estimated 93 percent of infants in Minnesota have been immunized

against polio, and 98 percent of Minnesota children have been

immunized by the time they start school, health officials said.

>

> , Tell us more do;

> [Norton AntiSpam] Polio

>

>

> > Does anyone know whats really going on in the Amish community. I don't

> trust

> > a think the New York Times medical department would print. But I

can tell

> > you this...they are scaring mothers all over Brazil......

> >

> > Mark

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

, Tell us more do;

[Norton AntiSpam] Polio

> Does anyone know whats really going on in the Amish community. I don't

trust

> a think the New York Times medical department would print. But I can tell

> you this...they are scaring mothers all over Brazil......

>

> Mark

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

this may help:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=367183

--- " Mark Sircus Ac., OMD " <director@...> wrote:

> Does anyone know whats really going on in the Amish

> community. I don't trust

> a think the New York Times medical department would

> print. But I can tell

> you this...they are scaring mothers all over

> Brazil......

>

> Mark

>

>

__________________________________

- PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.

[Guest guest]

Katrina

I took Amantadine for over three years with no visible change. I stayed on

it only because it was really cheap.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

Goldstein's treatments:

_http://avoca.http://avochttp://avohttp://avoca.<WBhttp://avocahttp_

(http://avoca.vicnet.net.au/~mecfs/general/goldstein_treatment.html)

I am taking Amantadine now, and I am able to increase my concentration,

reading comprehension, and work ability, and the amount of yawning has

decreased considerably. I must be in the 40% who are helped by this drug:

_http://www.pediatrihttp://wwhttp://www.phttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.htt_

(http://www.pediatricnetwork.org/medical/CFS/bell-commentary/amantadine.htm)

Katrina.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kat,

Thank you for the links.

I took amantadine twice...once at onset of flu in a year that type A was around.

It lessened symptoms and duration.

The next time, was through a whole winter, for flu prevention. I did not get the

flu that year, but did in the ones before and after.

I also took it as an experiment for my Dystonia. I had improvement with that,

but had the jitters Dr. Bell speaks of. Later I melted the pill in water and

drank half.

It seemed that I had also felt weak and spacy.

I wondered if it lowered my BP which I think is a side effect.

I am thinking of it again with winter ahead, at some small dose.

I did know a PWC who took it every winter, and whose Neurologist wanted her to

take it all the time. No other details.

You probably know that ME has been known as " atypical polio " .

There is research that indicates Enterovirus in ME/CFS. Enterovirus is the class

polio is in. Bruno, world expert on Post Polio Syndrome, speaks at

ME/CFS Conferences and explains his theory on that connection.

Unrelated to any of that, becasue of some research I was doing by myslef, I

ended up taking Deprenyl a few years ago. I was taking it for Dystonia, but it

definitely sharpened my brain. I brought this drug and effect up on this list,

but no one ever responded.

AS usual, along with the positive were side effects. 1st was hyper on normal

dose, than elevated MCS, and heat sensitivity and I think, lowered BP? not sure

about that.

I could only tolerate about 1/4 of lowest dose and still got positive benefits.

Deprenyl does something to N.O. also. I asked Pall on a list about that,

but never got a response.

BW,

Katrina

>

> A link between Polio and M.E. has been suggested many times over the

> years, and it is still the model that makes the most sense to me. Has

> anybody tried taking the drugs that help with fatigue and cognitive

> dysfunction in Post Polio Syndrome?

>

> I notice that all four recommended by the Mayo Clinic are in Dr. Jay

> Goldstein's list of drugs that help people with M.E.:

>

> " Medications. Medications, including aspirin and other nonsteroidal

> anti-inflammatory drugs, may ease muscle and joint pain. Certain drugs —

> pyridostigmine (Mestinon), amantadine (Symmetrel), selegiline (Eldepryl)

> and bromocriptine (Parlodel) — have been studied as a treatment for PPS

> fatigue, but no clear benefit has been shown. Other medications for

> fatigue may help, such as modafinil (Provigil). Studies of insulin-like

> growth factor-1 (IGF-1), a medication designed to improve muscle strength,

> showed that although it didn't change strength or susceptibility to

> fatigue, it did improve recovery after exercise. " -

> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/post-polio-syndrome/DS00494/DSECTION=8

>

> Goldstein's treatments:

>

> http://avoca.vicnet.net.au/~mecfs/general/goldstein_treatment.html

>

> I am taking Amantadine now, and I am able to increase my concentration,

> reading comprehension, and work ability, and the amount of yawning has

> decreased considerably. I must be in the 40% who are helped by this drug:

>

> http://www.pediatricnetwork.org/medical/CFS/bell-commentary/amantadine.htm

>

> Katrina.

>

[Guest guest]

I did extensive research into polio and

post-polio syndrome several years ago, to the

extent of joining a local post polio group and

seeing a physiatrist (pain doc) at a polio clinic

for some time. The doc was willing to diagnose me

as post-polio based on my symptoms and the fact

that before vaccinations in the 50's I had had a

'summer flu' although it did not progress to

paralytic polio. I do believe I may still have

some polio-like enterovirus which, like sackie

and the several herpes (including EBV) viruses

can lodge in the brain and heart and reactivate

from time to time. Of the group Of the

pharmaceuticals below, I have tried

bromocriptine, amantadine and Provigil without

any help for the CFS symptoms at all (I still

take the amantadine in the winter in lieu of a

flu shot as a preventative); the Provigil for

some reason was disagreeable to me, but I can't

recall why I not only had no benefit but didn't

like it. I also took human growth hormone for a

few years (which raises the IGF-1) and while I

was finally able to lose the weight I had gained

in the first few months of CFS, it did not help

the other CFS symptoms of pain, exhaustion,

cognitive confusion, etc. I noticed one major

difference between myself and the people in the

post-polio support group - whereas my CFS support

group nearly unanimously avoided alcohol as -bad

stuff- for their symptoms and wouldn't think of

having a party, the people at the post polio

group happily planned parties and looked forward

to a few drinks. I eventually concluded I did not

have what they had, or at least I did not have

all that they had and vice versa. There are two

fascinating books anyone interested in the

subject should read - Polio - A Summer Plague (or

something like that) and one by Jane Colby called

ME - The New Plague, drawing parallels to polio

and the interesting things about the ME outbreaks

in Iceland and the California polio-treating

hospital. There are some fascinating overlaps

with polio but I do not think it is the whole story by any means.

previous post: pyridostigmine (Mestinon),

amantadine (Symmetrel), selegiline (Eldepryl)

and bromocriptine (Parlodel) ­ have been studied as a treatment for PPS

fatigue, but no clear benefit has been shown. Other medications for

fatigue may help, such as modafinil (Provigil). Studies of insulin-like

growth factor-1 (IGF-1), a medication designed to improve muscle strength,

showed that although it didn't change strength or susceptibility to

fatigue, it did improve recovery after exercise. " -

[Guest guest]

I agree. The alcohol intolerance is so bad (for me) that even a sip

will now make me feel as sick as a dog. I would guess it's a similar

feeling to that anti-alcoholism drug from what I have read.

I personally suspect we either have a mutated form of the wild-type

polio virus, or we have one of the other polio/echo/coxsakie/entero

viruses. Of course, other viruses also cause post-viral fatigue which

is basically the same as M.E. In any case, all pointers indicate that

what we have is post-viral syndrome. I know my M.E. started in the

summer of 1978, which also happens to be the exact time I took my live

polio virus on a sugar cube.

Research study on enteroviruses in quadriceps muscle biopsies of M.E.

patients:

" Results: Muscle biopsy samples from 20.8% of the CFS patients were

positive for enterovirus sequences by RT-NPCR, while all the 29

control samples were negative; 58.3% of the CFS patients had a SATET+

response. Nine of the 10 enterovirus positive cases were among the 28

SATET+ patients (32.1%), compared with only one (5%) of the 20 SATET-

patients. PCR products were most closely related to coxsackie B virus.

Conclusions: There is an association between abnormal lactate response

to exercise, reflecting impaired muscle energy metabolism, and the

presence of enterovirus sequences in muscle in a proportion of CFS

patients. " - Enterovirus related metabolic myopathy: a postviral

fatigue syndrome R J M Lane, B A Soteriou, H Zhang, and L C Archard.

This may not seem like a high number, or appear to be conclusive, but

if you compare it to a study of muscle biopsies in IMD in non-M.E.

patients, you will see a completely different result:

" To investigate the hypothesis that the inflammatory muscle diseases

(IMD) polymyositis (PM) and dermatomyositis (DM) may be due to a

chronic, persistent enterovirus (EV) infection we sought to determine

the prevalence of these viruses in muscle tissue using both nested

polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and dot-blot hybridization assays.

Thirty-six frozen muscle biopsies from 32 adult cases of IMD and 42

biopsies from 36 control subjects with other neuromuscular disorders

were studied. Primers for PCR were chosen to conserved regions of the

5'-untranslated region of the EV genome. Constitutive Ableson tyrosine

kinase (ABL) mRNA was detected by PCR to confirm the integrity of

muscle RNA extracts. The sensitivity of the EV PCR was determined to

be 40-400 copies (12.5-125 ag) of synthetic EV RNA transcript against

a background of 1 microgram of cellular RNA. The specificity was

assessed using a range of enteroviral and unrelated viral isolates

extracted from cell cultures. Of the 78 samples tested, ABL mRNA was

successfully detected in all but four samples. The time the biopsies

spent in ultracold storage (1-73 months) did not appear to influence

the integrity of extracted RNA. When assayed for EV RNA by nested PCR,

none of 29 IMD cases (i.e., 28 PM and 1 DM) nor sequential biopsies

from 3 PM patients were found to be positive. All 42 control biopsies

were also negative for EV RNA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 7964891 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] "

You'll also note that Non-Paralytic Polio causes similar damage to

that found in the English girl who was the " first oficial death from

M.E. " :

" (Dr.) Bruno reviewed the personal laboratory notebooks, publications

and private correspondence of Dr. Albert Sabin, developer of the oral

polio vaccine, regarding a 1947, Cincinnati, Ohio outbreak of the

" Summer Gripe " , a flu-like disease that affected more than 10, 000

children. Because Summer Gripe was associated with a stiff neck - a

hallmark symptom of polio - Sabin hospitalized and studied a dozen

children. " Sabin concluded that Summer Gripe was caused by a mild form

of Type 2 poliovirus which caused a flu-like illness even though it

did not cause paralysis, " said Bruno. However, when Sabin infected

monkeys with polovirus from the Summer Gripe children, spinal cord and

brain stem neurons were killed just as they would have been by a

paralytic poliovirus. " Both the Summer Gripe and paralytic

polioviruses damage the brain stem, " Bruno continued. " Sabin showed us

that even a 'mild' poliovirus infection could cause neuron damage

that, although not apparent in terms of causing polio-like symptoms,

was very real " .

Quote from New Scientist on first official death from CFS in the UK:

" The coroner's verdict is a breakthrough for those who argue that CFS

is a physical condition, possibly with its roots in the immune system.

Dominic O'Donovan, a neuropathologist at Oldchurch Hospital in

Romford, UK, who gave evidence at the inquest, said that Sophia's

spinal cord showed inflammation caused by dorsal root ganglionitis - a

clear physical manifestation of the disease. "

And then there's Casey in Wisconsin who died of heart failure, and his

heart was full of a virus (although, nobody ever seems to say which

virus):

" Last Thursday, September 8, Pat received the coroner's report. The

University of Wisconsin forensic pathologist found that: **Casey died

of myocarditis that is, his heart was infected with disease. There was

inflammation, and the tissue was full of viral infection. Casey also

had old fibrosis, indicating that the viral infection was not of a new

onset.** "

This probably accounts for the heart problems that Peckerman and

Cheney are finding in CFS patients.

I shall end my theory discussion now, and let you all get back to

mould, radiation, and Yasko :-)

Kat.

> I noticed one major

> difference between myself and the people in the

> post-polio support group - whereas my CFS support

> group nearly unanimously avoided alcohol as -bad

> stuff- for their symptoms and wouldn't think of

> having a party, the people at the post polio

> group happily planned parties and looked forward

> to a few drinks. I eventually concluded I did not

> have what they had, or at least I did not have

> all that they had and vice versa.

[Guest guest]

Patrice,

 

If you are doubting yourself then you must not be 100% sure that vaccines cause

harm, that they do not provide health or immunity and that they harm and kill. 

You obviously at one point felt strongly enough about it to stopl.  Although i

never question my decision not to vaccinate because i know its the biggest evil

scam perpretrated against humanity and its only goal is to eliminate and control

people,  I find that coming on this board daily (no matter how busy i may be)

and reading daily about not only vaccines, but how to keep my daughter naturally

healthy - is a must for me.  Even if I didnt come here daily i would still never

allow my baby to be injected with poison, but my point is that when you have a

regular interchange with  like minded individuals, it allows you to defend your

position if need be - to others.  that way when you have conversations with

others that think like " sheep " who try to persuade you to follow the herd, or

when you

see articles or reports in the maintream (owned by big pharma) media you do not

start questioning your choice. 

 

And if your 21 yr old nanny would put that other child at risk - then

theoretically, so woudl its parents.... i doubt that they have continued to

receive their booster shots in order to " protect " their vulnerable child.  It is

so ignorant and ridiculous!! 

BTW- Kudos to your nanny for not being afraid to voice her " status " and to her

parents for keeping her clean and pure all these years.  they should be so

proud.

 

People really need to start waking up... this is about more than just vaccines!!

 

Arianna Mojica-   (UCC 1-207/1-103) 

~~~ " All rights not demanded are presumed waived " . ~ Thurston

Polio

I've been a member of this group since my daughter was born..13

months ago and have found it to be immensely helpful as I made the

decision not to vaccinate.

All that said do other people on this list ever have fears re

surface?

I find that when I talk to friends and family I can all the sudden

question my judgement.

Just today I was talking on the phone with my sister in law who

lives in the Bay Area (I'm in Mt) Anyway, she told me she feels

compelled to vaccinate because of all the workers from other

countries.. She said " you know Polio is still a real concern if

people have it and they are working in the fields and then we're

eating the produce etc. " She has a fair amount of intrepidation

over vaccinating. . she has an unvaxed 4 month old but she is going

to start the vaccines on a slower schedule.

She also asked me if I was going to feel comfortable traveling

internationally with my daughter. We have been on 4 flights with

her (stateside) she's only ever had a cold. I am pregnant again and

I'm blaming it on the increase of hormones but I'm all the sudden

feeling fearful all over again about my choice not to vaccinate.

As a side note.. I've had a nanny all year 1 day a week whom is 21

never been vaccinated and is by all measures the healthiest person I

know. She recently interviewed for a job with a physical therapist

and his pharmacist wife who decided not to hire her after she

casually mentioned she hasn't been vaccinated.. they asked their

Pediatrician if it would be a risk to hire her to watch their 2

vaccinated kids and the Ped said yes as vaccines don't provide 100

percent immunity! It's an interesting battle.. I'm outspoken about

it but I feel like I'm in such a minority..I' m looking for

reassurance!

My nanny happened to tell this couple I didn't vaccinate my daughter

and they have now passed that info. on to a number of people- I'm

planning to do a religious exemption when my dd enters school but I

don't want her to feel isolated/alienated.

~~~ " The only safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used " -- Dr. A.

, National Institutes of Health

~~~A truth¢s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie

was believed...When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the

masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its

speaker, a raving lunatic. " Dresden

www.vaclib.org 

www.909shot.com

 http://www.vacinfo.org/ 

http://www.moorbows.com/http://www.momtoanangel.net/ingred.htmhttp://www.vran.or\

g/

[Guest guest]

Hi Patrice,

In my opinion, your friend has no right to tell ANYONE about the

vaccination status of your child. I would meet with her and politely

tell her not to do that again (don't ask, tell). It should be up to

you as far as who knows and/or doesn't know the status of anything

medical about your family. That is a blatant disregard for your

friendship, your family and you daughter's emotional well-being. Not

fair of her at all! I had to have that little talk with my

sister-in-law a couple years back. It was difficult, but she hasn't

opened her mouth about it since.

I used to get fearful and question myself over and over again...

that's healthy! What it means is it's time to do more research and

become even more educated. I've been reseracing this topic for 3+

years and only recently (in the last year or so, partially thanks to

the information I receive here, from Sheri's class, and the books I've

read recently) have I become 100% totally comfortable in my own mind

and skin with my decision not to vax. The reason I'm now more

comfortable than ever is that I not only know I'm not putting those

toxin loads into my kid's bodies, but I also know without a doubt that

vaccines don't produce immunity... they are a false cover, and the

fact is, most of the diseases are far less harmful than the vaccines.

So, for me, it's a no-brainer. Why vaccinate if they don't do any

good and ONLY do harm? There is really not one vaccine that has ever

eradicated or improved the incidence of a disease occurring.

Polio was not eradicated by vaccine. The incidence of polio started

declining as sanitation and hygene conditions were improved. Clean,

running water and soap go a LONG way in disease prevention! My mother

had polio as a child. When I was a kid she'd talk about how they had

no running water and used outhouses. She was bitten by a fly near the

filthy outhouse when she was a toddler. She always blamed that as the

cause of her polio. She told me polio was only prevalent in areas of

poor sanitation. She lived it; she saw it; I believe her. By the

way, polio was renamed in order to give us a false sense that the

vaccine wiped it out... look up polio then look up meningitis. It's

the same disease with a new name!

http://www.wellwithin1.com/polio.htm

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/index4.htm

You said yourself your unvaxed nanny is one of the most healthy people

you know. There's the proof in action!

Keep reasearching. Read, read and read some more on this list, and

keep " delaying " vaccination untily our comfortable just saying " no,

not ever, ever, ever! " to vaccination.

Congratulations on your pregnancy!

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:27 AM, patriceparks <patriceparks@...> wrote:

> I've been a member of this group since my daughter was born..13

> months ago and have found it to be immensely helpful as I made the

> decision not to vaccinate.

> All that said do other people on this list ever have fears re

> surface?

> I find that when I talk to friends and family I can all the sudden

> question my judgement.