supplements

[Guest guest]

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IN USA! THANKS FOR YOUR EMAIL LINDA! TAKE CARE

JOANA

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

You finally said it, your nutrient needs are individually specific,

and the government

guidelines, be they Canadian or any other country's, are just a very

rough starting

point. Like the old family doctor said, write in a book everything that

you eat today,

as that will determine how you feel tomorrow.

I eat fairly good, but everyone here is way ahead of me when it comes

to CRON.

I supplement, which for me is good, as my serum levels show they are

good. There

was one blood screening that showed some of my levels were on the low

side. It

was just a short time after my second back surgery. I was wondering if

my carcass

was using up more goodies in the repair process. I also wonder if there

is something

I should be watching for on the screenings in relation to my fish intake.

Kinda like vitaman E not doing all it is supposed to, but large

quantities does help in

the ALS battle. Yes, I am glad the DRI's are finally out, but again,

they are just some

rough guidelines for me.

Regards,

Don White

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

You finally said it, your nutrient needs are individually specific,

and the government

guidelines, be they Canadian or any other country's, are just a very

rough starting

point. Like the old family doctor said, write in a book everything that

you eat today,

as that will determine how you feel tomorrow.

I eat fairly good, but everyone here is way ahead of me when it comes

to CRON.

I supplement, which for me is good, as my serum levels show they are

good. There

was one blood screening that showed some of my levels were on the low

side. It

was just a short time after my second back surgery. I was wondering if

my carcass

was using up more goodies in the repair process. I also wonder if there

is something

I should be watching for on the screenings in relation to my fish intake.

Kinda like vitaman E not doing all it is supposed to, but large

quantities does help in

the ALS battle. Yes, I am glad the DRI's are finally out, but again,

they are just some

rough guidelines for me.

Regards,

Don White

[Guest guest]

Don

>> You finally said it, your nutrient needs are individually specific,

a) i never said it. I checked my posts and dont see me making that comment

anywhere. If I did, please help me out.

regardless of whether or not it was said, by me, quoted by me, or anyone else

... I dont see how in anyway that would support an argument for supplementation.

Of course, how much of a certain nutrient you need may be somewhat or slightly

different that what I need on any given day, or what I need today may be

somewhat or slighly different today than from what I may need tommorrow, but

how does this support supplementation? To me, it futher supports eating a very

optimal diet. I guess it truly is amazing that humans survived any amount of

time without supplements.

>> Kinda like vitaman E not doing all it is supposed to, but large quantities

does help in the ALS battle.

a) how could we use this, the unproven potential benefit of one supplement to

treat one very rare condition, as a rational for people to supplement?

its not accurate,...

quoting from a review of the ALS/Vit E data......

" .....It has been hypothesized that free radicals might play a role in ALS, and

that, therefore, antioxidants like Vitamin E, might slow the progression of the

disease.

Based on this theory, a 1-year, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 289

people with ALS was conducted in which participants were given the drug riluzole

plus either vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol, 500 mg twice daily) or placebo. (

Desnuelle C, Dib M, Garrel C, et al. A double-blind, placebo-controlled

randomized clinical trial of alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) in the treatment of

amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. ALS riluzole-tocopherol Study Group. Amyotroph

Lateral Scler Other Motor Neuron Disord. 2001;2:9,18.) However, to the

disappointment of researchers, use of vitamin E failed to improve survival time

or measurably improve movement ability.

By looking closely at the data, the researchers did manage to find one benefit:

according to one measurement of disease severity, vitamin E did appear to delay

the progression of mild ALS to its more severe form. Unfortunately, this finding

is quite likely a statistical fluke: when researchers look at enough measures of

a disease, benefit will tend to be seen in one or two simply as the result of

chance.

Some vitamin E proponents felt that the dose of vitamin E used in this study

might have been too low. Researchers therefore conducted another study using ten

times the dose, this one lasting 18 months and enrolling 160 people.(Graf M,

Ecker D, Horowski R, et al. High dose vitamin E therapy in amyotrophic lateral

sclerosis as add-on therapy to riluzole: results of a placebo-controlled

double-blind study. J Neural Transm. 2004 10 27 )Once again, vitamin E failed to

prove significantly more effective than placebo. ...... "

I have no problem with your choice to supplement and your experiences and the

perception of them. Thats not whay I pursue this discussion. If you beleive

it helps you , great. I just dont see it as a convincing argument in anyway for

the need for supplements for people trying to " ON " .

Enjoy

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Don

>> You finally said it, your nutrient needs are individually specific,

a) i never said it. I checked my posts and dont see me making that comment

anywhere. If I did, please help me out.

regardless of whether or not it was said, by me, quoted by me, or anyone else

... I dont see how in anyway that would support an argument for supplementation.

Of course, how much of a certain nutrient you need may be somewhat or slightly

different that what I need on any given day, or what I need today may be

somewhat or slighly different today than from what I may need tommorrow, but

how does this support supplementation? To me, it futher supports eating a very

optimal diet. I guess it truly is amazing that humans survived any amount of

time without supplements.

>> Kinda like vitaman E not doing all it is supposed to, but large quantities

does help in the ALS battle.

a) how could we use this, the unproven potential benefit of one supplement to

treat one very rare condition, as a rational for people to supplement?

its not accurate,...

quoting from a review of the ALS/Vit E data......

" .....It has been hypothesized that free radicals might play a role in ALS, and

that, therefore, antioxidants like Vitamin E, might slow the progression of the

disease.

Based on this theory, a 1-year, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 289

people with ALS was conducted in which participants were given the drug riluzole

plus either vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol, 500 mg twice daily) or placebo. (

Desnuelle C, Dib M, Garrel C, et al. A double-blind, placebo-controlled

randomized clinical trial of alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) in the treatment of

amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. ALS riluzole-tocopherol Study Group. Amyotroph

Lateral Scler Other Motor Neuron Disord. 2001;2:9,18.) However, to the

disappointment of researchers, use of vitamin E failed to improve survival time

or measurably improve movement ability.

By looking closely at the data, the researchers did manage to find one benefit:

according to one measurement of disease severity, vitamin E did appear to delay

the progression of mild ALS to its more severe form. Unfortunately, this finding

is quite likely a statistical fluke: when researchers look at enough measures of

a disease, benefit will tend to be seen in one or two simply as the result of

chance.

Some vitamin E proponents felt that the dose of vitamin E used in this study

might have been too low. Researchers therefore conducted another study using ten

times the dose, this one lasting 18 months and enrolling 160 people.(Graf M,

Ecker D, Horowski R, et al. High dose vitamin E therapy in amyotrophic lateral

sclerosis as add-on therapy to riluzole: results of a placebo-controlled

double-blind study. J Neural Transm. 2004 10 27 )Once again, vitamin E failed to

prove significantly more effective than placebo. ...... "

I have no problem with your choice to supplement and your experiences and the

perception of them. Thats not whay I pursue this discussion. If you beleive

it helps you , great. I just dont see it as a convincing argument in anyway for

the need for supplements for people trying to " ON " .

Enjoy

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Yes Jo,

I take lots of supplements. My pain Dr recommended some and I take multis, and

stress. Not sure how much they help because I would have to stop taking them to

know, and I don't think that would be a good idea.

[Guest guest]

I work a 12 hour night shift, in an area where I am encapsulated in gear.

The entire time I am in there, no water or anything. I usually come out once

for food, and some water. On top of that, I commute a bit over an hour

each way, on a motorcycle. All this adds up to limited time at home to

prepare

high quality meals. I also drink a fair amount of milk weekly, 2% by the

way.

I often eat fish 4 or 5 times a week.

I take a number of supplements. Water soluable on a daily basis, fat

soluable

every other day, or sometimes twice a week with Vitamin E. I also often

ingest

protein drinks. Whey protein, not soy. The company I work for does a yearly

toxicology blood screen on me. I get three pages of results, whew.

My results say that I am doing things pretty much ok, even for my

sporadically

crappy food intake and atrosious sleep schedule, and for half of each

day, limited

water intake.

The knowledge that passes through this list is wonderful stuff.

Warmest regards,

Don White

Seguin, Tx

[Guest guest]

I work a 12 hour night shift, in an area where I am encapsulated in gear.

The entire time I am in there, no water or anything. I usually come out once

for food, and some water. On top of that, I commute a bit over an hour

each way, on a motorcycle. All this adds up to limited time at home to

prepare

high quality meals. I also drink a fair amount of milk weekly, 2% by the

way.

I often eat fish 4 or 5 times a week.

I take a number of supplements. Water soluable on a daily basis, fat

soluable

every other day, or sometimes twice a week with Vitamin E. I also often

ingest

protein drinks. Whey protein, not soy. The company I work for does a yearly

toxicology blood screen on me. I get three pages of results, whew.

My results say that I am doing things pretty much ok, even for my

sporadically

crappy food intake and atrosious sleep schedule, and for half of each

day, limited

water intake.

The knowledge that passes through this list is wonderful stuff.

Warmest regards,

Don White

Seguin, Tx

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for these recommendations. Do you (or anyone)

know

> anything about The Vitamin Shoppe and Swansons? I

believe they

> are in the same price range as Puritan's Pride. I

have tried

> some of their products and like them.

I have observed Swanson's tends to use high quality,

patented and trademarked ingredients. But you'd have

to confer with them directly and inquire about getting

a copy of the Certificate of Analysis (COA), which is

the laboratory analysis that should be assayed on each

batch of finished product to assure the quantity and

potency. That's usually synonmous with

" pharmaceutical quality " though the meaning is more

all-encompassing.

> I don't know if this is worth the extra cost or

even true,

> especially after reading some of these posts. Any

more

> information on this subject by any on this list

would be most

> welcome.

It shouldn't cost extra in the first place as such

standards should be the bare minimum for all

supplements.

I'll second Franseca's sentiment that you should get

what you need from food. Ideally, supplements should

only be supplementing what is physically difficult to

get from food in optimal qualities and be whole-food

based or orthomolecular. So that would probably rule

out all supplements but 1% or so. The other 99% are

what I call " allopathic supplements " ... where the

supplements are being used as drugs rather than for

dietary supplementation.

Logan

__________________________________________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for these recommendations. Do you (or anyone)

know

> anything about The Vitamin Shoppe and Swansons? I

believe they

> are in the same price range as Puritan's Pride. I

have tried

> some of their products and like them.

I have observed Swanson's tends to use high quality,

patented and trademarked ingredients. But you'd have

to confer with them directly and inquire about getting

a copy of the Certificate of Analysis (COA), which is

the laboratory analysis that should be assayed on each

batch of finished product to assure the quantity and

potency. That's usually synonmous with

" pharmaceutical quality " though the meaning is more

all-encompassing.

> I don't know if this is worth the extra cost or

even true,

> especially after reading some of these posts. Any

more

> information on this subject by any on this list

would be most

> welcome.

It shouldn't cost extra in the first place as such

standards should be the bare minimum for all

supplements.

I'll second Franseca's sentiment that you should get

what you need from food. Ideally, supplements should

only be supplementing what is physically difficult to

get from food in optimal qualities and be whole-food

based or orthomolecular. So that would probably rule

out all supplements but 1% or so. The other 99% are

what I call " allopathic supplements " ... where the

supplements are being used as drugs rather than for

dietary supplementation.

Logan

__________________________________________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

Deb wrote, "Take Glucosamine and Chondritin to keep your joints strong if you arent already....."hey, Deb! I thought these two supplements were for osteo, not rheumatoid. ??? gentle hugs, Marcia

Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

Francesca,THank you for posting this information. There are so many opinions about vitamins and nutrients out there, with conflicting theses on their usefulness, then you add the monetary issue of everyone promoting or selling their product and one gets more confused. Personally, I have taken handfulls of vitamins daily or taken none. The funny thing is...I have never felt a change, except perhaps an increase in appetite with some of vitamins toted for "older" people. With my CRON eating style, I try to get most of my nutrients through food, but do add vit D daily and a Vit B complex injection once a week. I am a subject of one, but really try to listen to my body, eat balanced meals, mostly fruits and veggies and splurge on some good chocolate from time to time. At 70, I pass easily for 50, have normal labs, EKG, Blood pressure, but a little high BMI. Yoga daily keeps me flexible and balanced and a job that I love seems to help with quality of life Contrary to many people on here, I try not to overthink this plan or worry too much about micronutrients. While this works for me, it may not for others, but I love the good health and zest for living I have.MJ'On Aug 25, 2008, at 7:04 PM, Francesca Skelton wrote:It’s best to try to get your vitamins from food. There’s nothing quite like the synergistic way that nature has evolved to get the right combo of nutrients into us – at least not yet. In some of our past discussions we’ve noted studies where nutrients are sometimes not useful in a pill or capsule as they are in food. Also too much of certain nutrients are harmful, not helpful. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7349980.stmThat said there are a very few nutrients that I do supplement with. I take fish oil, D3, and a K pill once a week (since K is so rare in food). I expect that everyone here has a different individual take on this subject. Jeff posted a few months ago about healthy centenarians who were deficient in some nutrients. IOW micro-managing your nutrients may not be as important as we previously thought.Search our archives for past posts about vitamins and supplements. Go to the home page and put “vitamins” or “supplements” in the search box and you will get our past discussions.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ginger:

Apart from CR, little is known for absolutely certain about nutrition. We each have to make our own decisions based on our assessment of the evidence.

The above said, one approach to the supplement issue which makes some sense is to log everything you eat in a typical week into CRON-o-Meter, find out what your deficiencies are, and make sure you fix them.

Given what I typically eat, I am usually deficient calcium, zinc and vitamins D and E (as I think many of those eating a sensible number of calories are). I make sure to supplement these just enough to get the RDA. For me that means one capsule of E a week, one zinc pill weekly, and appreciable daily doses of D and calcium. Much of the important science on vitamin D has been published since Walford wrote 'Beyond', and most people here now believe the RDA for D is way too low. I avoid any supplements containing iron.

But there are some who believe mild deficiencies may act as a beneficial 'stress'. I have not swallowed that argument. But until studies are done and confirmed, and as far as I know they haven't been, we will not know the answer.

I agree with Francesca's comments about fish oil and getting nutrients from foods where possible. I also supplement small amounts of folic acid and chromium, although I am already above the RDA for those. I also eat natto occasionally because of its vitamin K2, which cannot be gotten anythere else I know of. And I eat one brazil nut a day to make sure I am not deficient selenium.

Vegans need to make sure they get enough vitamin B-12.

As more science is published about these things my views will continue to evolve, which is a major reason I read everything posted here.

fwiw.

Rodney.

>> It¹s best to try to get your vitamins from food. There¹s nothing quite like> the synergistic way that nature has evolved to get the right combo of> nutrients into us ­ at least not yet. In some of our past discussions we¹ve> noted studies where nutrients are sometimes not useful in a pill or capsule> as they are in food. Also too much of certain nutrients are harmful, not> helpful. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7349980.stm> > That said there are a very few nutrients that I do supplement with. I take> fish oil, D3, and a K pill once a week (since K is so rare in food).> > I expect that everyone here has a different individual take on this subject.> Jeff posted a few months ago about healthy centenarians who were deficient> in some nutrients. IOW micro-managing your nutrients may not be as> important as we previously thought.> > Search our archives for past posts about vitamins and supplements. Go to> the home page and put ³vitamins² or ³supplements² in the search box and you> will get our past discussions.>

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca & Rodney,

Francesca you mentioned in your post below that you take fish oil,

D3 and K as supplements. Rodney you mentioned in your post that you

get your K2 from natto. I also take fish oil and D3, however I have

never taken K, either 1 or 2 as a supplement. I did some research

on the internet and found that there are brands out there that use

natto extract as their base for K2. Also I noted that Dr. Walford's

recomendation for Vitamin K is 400 mcg. total including food

sources. (Beyond The 120 Year Diet, page 165, Table 7.1) However, he

does not differentiate between K1 and K2. Since I eat plenty of

green vegetables in my daily diet, I suspect that I am getting my

full of K1. Could either of you/and or others give me your take on

Vitamin K, including the amounts taking in the form of supplements?

Thank you!

Best in Health,

Ed Urbanski

>

> It¹s best to try to get your vitamins from food. There¹s nothing

quite like

> the synergistic way that nature has evolved to get the right combo

of

> nutrients into us ­ at least not yet. In some of our past

discussions we¹ve

> noted studies where nutrients are sometimes not useful in a pill

or capsule

> as they are in food. Also too much of certain nutrients are

harmful, not

> helpful. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7349980.stm

>

> That said there are a very few nutrients that I do supplement

with. I take

> fish oil, D3, and a K pill once a week (since K is so rare in

food).

>

> I expect that everyone here has a different individual take on

this subject.

> Jeff posted a few months ago about healthy centenarians who were

deficient

> in some nutrients. IOW micro-managing your nutrients may not be as

> important as we previously thought.

>

> Search our archives for past posts about vitamins and

supplements. Go to

> the home page and put ³vitamins² or ³supplements² in the search

box and you

> will get our past discussions.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ed:

As you realize vitamin K1 is plentifully supplied by green vegetables,

so few here are likely to be deficient.

Vitamin K2 seems to be plentifully supplied only by natto, or perhaps

supplements of it. The benefits are claimed to be for bone mass - often

an issue for people on CR - and possibly dementia, which probably is not

a major issue for us.

I eat a small package of natto (~50g) about once a week, but no

supplements of it. I figure this means I get many multiples more K2

from this compared with those not eating natto. On principle I try

never to overdo anything! And I am encouraged in this by the fact that

natto is not my favorite taste!

Some reports on this have been posted here. But I am not aware of any

major studies, so I do it on the basis that it it doesn't seem likely

there would be any downside and possibly some appreciable upside.

Rodney.

> >

> > It¹s best to try to get your vitamins from food. There¹s

nothing

> quite like

> > the synergistic way that nature has evolved to get the right combo

> of

> > nutrients into us ­ at least not yet. In some of our past

> discussions we¹ve

> > noted studies where nutrients are sometimes not useful in a pill

> or capsule

> > as they are in food. Also too much of certain nutrients are

> harmful, not

> > helpful. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7349980.stm

> >

> > That said there are a very few nutrients that I do supplement

> with. I take

> > fish oil, D3, and a K pill once a week (since K is so rare in

> food).

> >

> > I expect that everyone here has a different individual take on

> this subject.

> > Jeff posted a few months ago about healthy centenarians who were

> deficient

> > in some nutrients. IOW micro-managing your nutrients may not be as

> > important as we previously thought.

> >

> > Search our archives for past posts about vitamins and

> supplements. Go to

> > the home page and put ³vitamins² or ³supplements² in the

search

> box and you

> > will get our past discussions.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>...Rodney you mentioned in your post that you

>get your K2 from natto. I also take fish oil and D3, however I have

>never taken K, either 1 or 2 as a supplement. ...Since I eat plenty of

>green vegetables in my daily diet, I suspect that I am getting my

>full of K1. Could either of you/and or others give me your take on

>Vitamin K, including the amounts taking in the form of supplements?

One big difference between K1 and K2 is that K1 has a body half-life of

1.5 hours, and K2 has a body half-life of 3 days. That's mentioned in the

study cited here:

http://www.drugs.com/clinical_trials/vitamin-k2-linked-lower-prostate-cancer-ris\

k-3849.html

So if you are only getting K1, you need to be getting it very, very

frequently. I eat a 100 g package of natto every other day.

Bruce