Re: Variation in T Levels with Androgel

[Guest guest]

HI yes I had my levels drop bad on me using androgel I told my Dr. I felt

the packet was half full he said impossible as it turns out I was right they had

a problem. I got my Script for 90 days in the mail and the first box I opened

had packets in it that were empty. We sent them back and I got 6 more boxs and

the packets were half full. Later I read that the FDA made them pull a lot of

the gel back. That is when I went on Testim it come in tubes 5 grams each and

works better. Here is a study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

cut and paste it it is a long URL.

They most be having problems or you got some old boxs.

And yes the gel works better after a hot shower I would shave after my shower

then put on the gel.

Phil

Fadden <fadden@...> wrote:

Hello all,

I have been on T replacement for the past 13 years due to

hypothalamic dysfunction. For the first 10 years I used injections

(70-100mg/wk). The last 3 years I have used Androgel, with a dose

varying from 5 to 10 gms. For the most part I have had a favorable

impression of the Androgel compared to injections but recently I ran

into a problem. I have noted a puzzling variation in my T levels on

Androgel.

At one time I was on 5 gms of Androgel and we had my T levels

checked. The level at that time was 665 ng/dl which was

reasonable. Free T was also within normal limits.

Recently however I noticed an unusual level of fatigue and, as my

doctor and I attempted to determine the cause, we ran another test

for T levels, as well as free T and estradiol. The week I had the

test done I was using 7.5 gms per day Androgel. Thus I was shocked

to find my T level as only 193 nd/dl and the free T as only 3.3 pg/ml

(normal 7.2-24). E was 19 pg/ml.

It surprised me that 5 gms of Androgel produced 665 ng/dl a couple of

years ago, but 7.5 gms produced only 193 ng/dl! If you do the math,

that's about a 5-fold reduction in absorption per gram.

One possible reason is that recently I changed the timing of my

Androgel administration. Formerly I had applied it in the late

afternoon, following my daily exercise and a hot shower. A few

weeks ago, I decided to apply it first thing in the morning, to try

to get a peak level earlier in the day. However this meant that I no

longer applied it after a shower (as I only shower once a day after I

exercise). It also meant that I showered 12 hours after the

Androgel instead of 24 hours after.

Is it possible that taking a hot shower before putting on the

Androgel boosted the absorption by a factor of 5? Has anyone else

noticed such large fluctuations in Androgel absorption? Have you

been able to determine why?

I know some people just absorb Androgel poorly, but in my case I was

absorbing it well at one time, but hardly at all recently. The

inconsistency is puzzling and disturbing.

(There is one other remote possibility. I recently stopped taking

triazolam (Halcion), a sleeping medication. Triazolam and

testosterone are both metabolized partly by the same enzyme,

cytochrome p450 3A4. So there could be some drug interaction. But

no such interaction has ever been reported so it's probably

far-fetched.)

Anyway, I have returned to administering the Androgel after a shower,

and I'm now using the full 10 gms that my Rx allows. I can't tell

if it's effective yet. I have a little more energy, but I'm not yet

back to normal. My doc is away on vacation this week, so I may or

may not be able to get another T level until the week after

next. We'll see what shows up. One thing for sure -- I need to get

my T level checked more often in the future.

In the meantime I wanted to run my experience past you guys and see

if anyone has had a similar experience or any ideas as to what's

going on.

Thanks in advance. This is a very informative group with a lot of

well-informed members.

Jim

[Guest guest]

The showering factor definitely plays a role. It opens your skin pores so the

absorption should be better. The other factor to consider is that there have

been some QC issues in past with androgel such as not putting the same volume in

the package.

Arkansas

Fadden <fadden@...> wrote:

Hello all,

I have been on T replacement for the past 13 years due to

hypothalamic dysfunction. For the first 10 years I used injections

(70-100mg/wk). The last 3 years I have used Androgel, with a dose

varying from 5 to 10 gms. For the most part I have had a favorable

impression of the Androgel compared to injections but recently I ran

into a problem. I have noted a puzzling variation in my T levels on

Androgel.

At one time I was on 5 gms of Androgel and we had my T levels

checked. The level at that time was 665 ng/dl which was

reasonable. Free T was also within normal limits.

Recently however I noticed an unusual level of fatigue and, as my

doctor and I attempted to determine the cause, we ran another test

for T levels, as well as free T and estradiol. The week I had the

test done I was using 7.5 gms per day Androgel. Thus I was shocked

to find my T level as only 193 nd/dl and the free T as only 3.3 pg/ml

(normal 7.2-24). E was 19 pg/ml.

It surprised me that 5 gms of Androgel produced 665 ng/dl a couple of

years ago, but 7.5 gms produced only 193 ng/dl! If you do the math,

that's about a 5-fold reduction in absorption per gram.

One possible reason is that recently I changed the timing of my

Androgel administration. Formerly I had applied it in the late

afternoon, following my daily exercise and a hot shower. A few

weeks ago, I decided to apply it first thing in the morning, to try

to get a peak level earlier in the day. However this meant that I no

longer applied it after a shower (as I only shower once a day after I

exercise). It also meant that I showered 12 hours after the

Androgel instead of 24 hours after.

Is it possible that taking a hot shower before putting on the

Androgel boosted the absorption by a factor of 5? Has anyone else

noticed such large fluctuations in Androgel absorption? Have you

been able to determine why?

I know some people just absorb Androgel poorly, but in my case I was

absorbing it well at one time, but hardly at all recently. The

inconsistency is puzzling and disturbing.

(There is one other remote possibility. I recently stopped taking

triazolam (Halcion), a sleeping medication. Triazolam and

testosterone are both metabolized partly by the same enzyme,

cytochrome p450 3A4. So there could be some drug interaction. But

no such interaction has ever been reported so it's probably

far-fetched.)

Anyway, I have returned to administering the Androgel after a shower,

and I'm now using the full 10 gms that my Rx allows. I can't tell

if it's effective yet. I have a little more energy, but I'm not yet

back to normal. My doc is away on vacation this week, so I may or

may not be able to get another T level until the week after

next. We'll see what shows up. One thing for sure -- I need to get

my T level checked more often in the future.

In the meantime I wanted to run my experience past you guys and see

if anyone has had a similar experience or any ideas as to what's

going on.

Thanks in advance. This is a very informative group with a lot of

well-informed members.

Jim

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

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[Guest guest]

Jim -

You don't say how much time had elapsed between

application and blood draw for each of your tests.

Although the Androgel prescribing info indicates

stable levels for 24 to 48 hours, with me that was not

the case.

When I was on 5 gm Androgel, I would test about 900

within 2 -5 hours after application and I would test

about 200 after 26 hours. This was confirmed through 4

separate tests. So timing of blood draw could be a

consideration.

My present doctor will not prescribe any topical

testosterone because she says that absorption is too

variable, both from individual to individual and also

with the same individual over time. In fact, if you

study the literature you will see that the standard

deviation of measured levels is quite large.

It is possible that you actually were averaging 400

and you just measured high on one test and low on the

other.

Jim

--- Fadden <fadden@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks for the replies, Phil and Dan. I'm using

> Androgel that comes

> in a pump-action bottle rather than packets. (I had

> used the packets

> at one time). The volume of the Androgel per pump

> seems to be OK,

> but if they've had quality control problems perhaps

> I got a bad batch

> in some way. Or it could be the showering. What

> shocks me is the

> huge decline in the T levels. It's almost as if I'm

> not using

> Androgel at all. Since Androgel had worked well for

> me at one time,

> I find this very odd.

>

> Jim

>

> At 05:44 PM 8/13/2006, philip georgian wrote:

>

> >HI yes I had my levels drop bad on me using

> androgel I told my

> >Dr. I felt the packet was half full he said

> impossible as it turns

> >out I was right they had a problem. I got my Script

> for 90 days in

> >the mail and the first box I opened had packets in

> it that were

> >empty. We sent them back and I got 6 more boxs and

> the packets were

> >half full. Later I read that the FDA made them pull

> a lot of the gel

> >back. That is when I went on Testim it come in

> tubes 5 grams each

> >and works better. Here is a study

>

><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abst\

ract & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi\

?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

> >cut and paste it it is a long URL.

> >They most be having problems or you got some old

> boxs.

> >And yes the gel works better after a hot shower I

> would shave after

> >my shower then put on the gel.

> >Phil

> >

> > Fadden

> <<mailto:fadden%40comcast.net>fadden@...>

> >wrote:

> >

> >Hello all,

> >

> >I have been on T replacement for the past 13 years

> due to

> >hypothalamic dysfunction. For the first 10 years I

> used injections

> >(70-100mg/wk). The last 3 years I have used

> Androgel, with a dose

> >varying from 5 to 10 gms. For the most part I have

> had a favorable

> >impression of the Androgel compared to injections

> but recently I ran

> >

> >into a problem. I have noted a puzzling variation

> in my T levels on

> >Androgel.

> >

> >At one time I was on 5 gms of Androgel and we had

> my T levels

> >checked. The level at that time was 665 ng/dl which

> was

> >reasonable. Free T was also within normal limits.

> >

> >Recently however I noticed an unusual level of

> fatigue and, as my

> >doctor and I attempted to determine the cause, we

> ran another test

> >for T levels, as well as free T and estradiol. The

> week I had the

> >test done I was using 7.5 gms per day Androgel.

> Thus I was shocked

> >to find my T level as only 193 nd/dl and the free T

> as only 3.3

> >pg/ml

> >(normal 7.2-24). E was 19 pg/ml.

> >

> >It surprised me that 5 gms of Androgel produced 665

> ng/dl a couple

> >of

> >years ago, but 7.5 gms produced only 193 ng/dl! If

> you do the math,

> >that's about a 5-fold reduction in absorption per

> gram.

> >

> >One possible reason is that recently I changed the

> timing of my

> >Androgel administration. Formerly I had applied it

> in the late

> >afternoon, following my daily exercise and a hot

> shower. A few

> >weeks ago, I decided to apply it first thing in the

> morning, to try

> >to get a peak level earlier in the day. However

> this meant that I no

> >

> >longer applied it after a shower (as I only shower

> once a day after

> >I

> >exercise). It also meant that I showered 12 hours

> after the

> >Androgel instead of 24 hours after.

> >

> >Is it possible that taking a hot shower before

> putting on the

> >Androgel boosted the absorption by a factor of 5?

> Has anyone else

> >noticed such large fluctuations in Androgel

> absorption? Have you

> >been able to determine why?

> >

> >I know some people just absorb Androgel poorly, but

> in my case I was

> >

> >absorbing it well at one time, but hardly at all

> recently. The

> >inconsistency is puzzling and disturbing.

> >

> >(There is one other remote possibility. I recently

> stopped taking

> >triazolam (Halcion), a sleeping medication.

> Triazolam and

> >testosterone are both metabolized partly by the

> same enzyme,

> >cytochrome p450 3A4. So there could be some drug

> interaction. But

> >no such interaction has ever been reported so it's

> probably

> >far-fetched.)

> >

> >Anyway, I have returned to administering the

> Androgel after a

> >shower,

> >and I'm now using the full 10 gms that my Rx

> allows. I can't tell

> >if it's effective yet. I have a little more energy,

> but I'm not yet

> >back to normal. My doc is away on vacation this

> week, so I may or

> >may not be able to get another T level until the

> week after

> >next. We'll see what shows up. One thing for sure

> -- I need to get

> >my T level checked more often in the future.

> >

> >In the meantime I wanted to run my experience past

> you guys and see

> >if anyone has had a similar experience or any ideas

> as to what's

> >going on.

> >

> >Thanks in advance. This is a very informative group

> with a lot of

> >well-informed members.

> >

> >Jim

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:47:44 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>

>The showering factor definitely plays a role. It opens your skin pores so the

absorption should be better. The other factor to consider is that there have

been some QC issues in past with androgel such as not putting the same volume in

the package.

>

> Arkansas

I had absorbtion degradation over time. I found that one of the

effects of TRT for me was thickening skin, and hair growth on

application areas, the combination seemed to lead to less absorbtion.

I lost 40% and went back to shots.

________________

I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.

Terence

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:07:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Hey Retro..u are on shots now? previous regimen was 5g and 7.5g every other day

right? how are the shots working for you? how much/ofen? any E2 problems?

>

> hope all is well for you.

>

> jack

>

I've just taken my second shot - 100mg every week. It'll be a while

before I test and figure things out for the new ideal. I was doing the

7.5 average. But as I said my levels plummeted and I was feeling " off "

for quite a while. I went to 10 (two packets a day) and felt some

better but still off.

So it's back to shots. Maybe with the weekly it will work better. I

went to gel because I was on a two week roller coaster and the endo

thought a steady daily dose would be better achieved thru gels.

ly I do a lot of hiking, biking and working out and the gels are

pretty inconvenient for that life style. Camping in the mountains and

waking up with it around 30 degrees and thinking I have to wash off

the old gel and apply new cold gel this morning is not a happy way to

wake up. I was also starting to get a lot of low T symptoms for me.

Similarly with biking and swimming - I either have to delay

application till I'm done or split before and after. I just found it

a pain after a while.

So it's weekly shots now while I find the best dose/days formula. I'm

popping in for a T and E2 test on day four after the third shot. (I

figure the gel levels will have long dissipated.)

________________

I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.

Terence

[Guest guest]

Hi Reto why test on the 4th day after the shot my Dr. has me test on the day of

the shot we do the blood first then the shot. I have found that doing my Shot

every 3 days has kept me more leveled and my E2 is much less a problem. I got

the idea for one of Dr. Shippen's men he said that Dr. Shippen is giving him

self Shots subQ every 3 days because he has found it is keeping his E2 down. My

Dr. will not let me do subQ but has let me use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle

to shot in my thigh. I pull the plunger down all the way and hold it for about

1 or 2 min.'s and the T comes out of the vile ok. I am also dong HCG the 2 days

in between the T shots this has my Testis beck up to normal size and and working

again.

Good luck on the Shots I feel much better on them my joint and muscle pain is

gone doing them.

Phil

retrogrouch@... wrote:

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:07:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Hey Retro..u are on shots now? previous regimen was 5g and 7.5g every other day

right? how are the shots working for you? how much/ofen? any E2 problems?

>

> hope all is well for you.

>

> jack

>

I've just taken my second shot - 100mg every week. It'll be a while

before I test and figure things out for the new ideal. I was doing the

7.5 average. But as I said my levels plummeted and I was feeling " off "

for quite a while. I went to 10 (two packets a day) and felt some

better but still off.

So it's back to shots. Maybe with the weekly it will work better. I

went to gel because I was on a two week roller coaster and the endo

thought a steady daily dose would be better achieved thru gels.

ly I do a lot of hiking, biking and working out and the gels are

pretty inconvenient for that life style. Camping in the mountains and

waking up with it around 30 degrees and thinking I have to wash off

the old gel and apply new cold gel this morning is not a happy way to

wake up. I was also starting to get a lot of low T symptoms for me.

Similarly with biking and swimming - I either have to delay

application till I'm done or split before and after. I just found it

a pain after a while.

So it's weekly shots now while I find the best dose/days formula. I'm

popping in for a T and E2 test on day four after the third shot. (I

figure the gel levels will have long dissipated.)

________________

I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.

Terence

[Guest guest]

Reto just posted that he is doing shots every week the gels stopped working for

him his skin got thicker and the gel was not getting into his blood. Read his

posts.

Phil

Fadden <fadden@...> wrote:

The elapsed time could be a factor. This

measurement as about 24 hours after my last

Androgel application. Maybe the level would be

much higher if measured sooner. The previous

measurement was 17 hours after application.

I can say that I don't feel a subjective

testosterone peak after application. I used to

feel more of a boost, but not lately, so if there

is a peak I'm not feeling it (which may or may not mean anything.)

When my doc returns from vacation I'll have to

get him to arrange for tests at both the peak

time (2-5 hours after application according to

your experience) as well as the low point at 24

hours. When I was on shots we measured the peak

and trough levels, so I think he'll be

agreeable. We didn't think that would be

necessary on the gel, but from what you say,

we'll have to look at that source of variation.

Jim

At 05:45 PM 8/14/2006, JimS. wrote:

>Jim -

>

>You don't say how much time had elapsed between

>application and blood draw for each of your tests.

>Although the Androgel prescribing info indicates

>stable levels for 24 to 48 hours, with me that was not

>the case.

>

>When I was on 5 gm Androgel, I would test about 900

>within 2 -5 hours after application and I would test

>about 200 after 26 hours. This was confirmed through 4

>separate tests. So timing of blood draw could be a

>consideration.

>

>My present doctor will not prescribe any topical

>testosterone because she says that absorption is too

>variable, both from individual to individual and also

>with the same individual over time. In fact, if you

>study the literature you will see that the standard

>deviation of measured levels is quite large.

>

>It is possible that you actually were averaging 400

>and you just measured high on one test and low on the

>other.

>

>Jim

>

>--- Fadden

><fadden@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Thanks for the replies, Phil and Dan. I'm using

> > Androgel that comes

> > in a pump-action bottle rather than packets. (I had

> > used the packets

> > at one time). The volume of the Androgel per pump

> > seems to be OK,

> > but if they've had quality control problems perhaps

> > I got a bad batch

> > in some way. Or it could be the showering. What

> > shocks me is the

> > huge decline in the T levels. It's almost as if I'm

> > not using

> > Androgel at all. Since Androgel had worked well for

> > me at one time,

> > I find this very odd.

> >

> > Jim

> >

> > At 05:44 PM 8/13/2006, philip georgian wrote:

> >

> > >HI yes I had my levels drop bad on me using

> > androgel I told my

> > >Dr. I felt the packet was half full he said

> > impossible as it turns

> > >out I was right they had a problem. I got my Script

> > for 90 days in

> > >the mail and the first box I opened had packets in

> > it that were

> > >empty. We sent them back and I got 6 more boxs and

> > the packets were

> > >half full. Later I read that the FDA made them pull

> > a lot of the gel

> > >back. That is when I went on Testim it come in

> > tubes 5 grams each

> > >and works better. Here is a study

> >

> ><>

?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5>http://www.n\

cbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids\

=12673669 & query_hl=5>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & \

db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

> > >cut and paste it it is a long URL.

> > >They most be having problems or you got some old

> > boxs.

> > >And yes the gel works better after a hot shower I

> > would shave after

> > >my shower then put on the gel.

> > >Phil

> > >

> > > Fadden

> >

> <fadden@...>

>

> > >wrote:

> > >

> > >Hello all,

> > >

> > >I have been on T replacement for the past 13 years

> > due to

> > >hypothalamic dysfunction. For the first 10 years I

> > used injections

> > >(70-100mg/wk). The last 3 years I have used

> > Androgel, with a dose

> > >varying from 5 to 10 gms. For the most part I have

> > had a favorable

> > >impression of the Androgel compared to injections

> > but recently I ran

> > >

> > >into a problem. I have noted a puzzling variation

> > in my T levels on

> > >Androgel.

> > >

> > >At one time I was on 5 gms of Androgel and we had

> > my T levels

> > >checked. The level at that time was 665 ng/dl which

> > was

> > >reasonable. Free T was also within normal limits.

> > >

> > >Recently however I noticed an unusual level of

> > fatigue and, as my

> > >doctor and I attempted to determine the cause, we

> > ran another test

> > >for T levels, as well as free T and estradiol. The

> > week I had the

> > >test done I was using 7.5 gms per day Androgel.

> > Thus I was shocked

> > >to find my T level as only 193 nd/dl and the free T

> > as only 3.3

> > >pg/ml

> > >(normal 7.2-24). E was 19 pg/ml.

> > >

> > >It surprised me that 5 gms of Androgel produced 665

> > ng/dl a couple

> > >of

> > >years ago, but 7.5 gms produced only 193 ng/dl! If

> > you do the math,

> > >that's about a 5-fold reduction in absorption per

> > gram.

> > >

> > >One possible reason is that recently I changed the

> > timing of my

> > >Androgel administration. Formerly I had applied it

> > in the late

> > >afternoon, following my daily exercise and a hot

> > shower. A few

> > >weeks ago, I decided to apply it first thing in the

> > morning, to try

> > >to get a peak level earlier in the day. However

> > this meant that I no

> > >

> > >longer applied it after a shower (as I only shower

> > once a day after

> > >I

> > >exercise). It also meant that I showered 12 hours

> > after the

> > >Androgel instead of 24 hours after.

> > >

> > >Is it possible that taking a hot shower before

> > putting on the

> > >Androgel boosted the absorption by a factor of 5?

> > Has anyone else

> > >noticed such large fluctuations in Androgel

> > absorption? Have you

> > >been able to determine why?

> > >

> > >I know some people just absorb Androgel poorly, but

> > in my case I was

> > >

> > >absorbing it well at one time, but hardly at all

> > recently. The

> > >inconsistency is puzzling and disturbing.

> > >

> > >(There is one other remote possibility. I recently

> > stopped taking

> > >triazolam (Halcion), a sleeping medication.

> > Triazolam and

> > >testosterone are both metabolized partly by the

> > same enzyme,

> > >cytochrome p450 3A4. So there could be some drug

> > interaction. But

> > >no such interaction has ever been reported so it's

> > probably

> > >far-fetched.)

> > >

> > >Anyway, I have returned to administering the

> > Androgel after a

> > >shower,

> > >and I'm now using the full 10 gms that my Rx

> > allows. I can't tell

> > >if it's effective yet. I have a little more energy,

> > but I'm not yet

> > >back to normal. My doc is away on vacation this

> > week, so I may or

> > >may not be able to get another T level until the

> > week after

> > >next. We'll see what shows up. One thing for sure

> > -- I need to get

> > >my T level checked more often in the future.

> > >

> > >In the meantime I wanted to run my experience past

> > you guys and see

> > >if anyone has had a similar experience or any ideas

> > as to what's

> > >going on.

> > >

> > >Thanks in advance. This is a very informative group

> > with a lot of

> > >well-informed members.

> > >

> > >Jim

> >

> >

>

>__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

So you have to give youself shots every day,

T,hcg,hcg,T,hcg,hcg,T,hcg.........

How do you manage space on your skin?

JanSz

--- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

I have found that doing

> my Shot every 3 days has kept me more leveled and my

> E2 is much less a problem. I got the idea for one

> of Dr. Shippen's men he said that Dr. Shippen is

> giving him self Shots subQ every 3 days because he

> has found it is keeping his E2 down. My Dr. will

> not let me do subQ but has let me use a small 27g

> 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle to shot in my thigh. I pull

> the plunger down all the way and hold it for about 1

> or 2 min.'s and the T comes out of the vile ok. I

> am also dong HCG the 2 days in between the T shots

> this has my Testis beck up to normal size and and

> working again.

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

That is easy the thigh is big and using a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle I

shoot one leg then the next I start lower and to the side and work my way up the

leg doing my shots then I got up some near the top of the thigh and work my way

down my leg. The trick is the small needle. I could do the HCG in my belly but

don't like how long it takes to work. So this is a half ass IM shot somedays it

maybe subQ.

Phil

Jan Szulc <aszulc@...> wrote:

So you have to give youself shots every day,

T,hcg,hcg,T,hcg,hcg,T,hcg.........

How do you manage space on your skin?

JanSz

--- philip georgian

wrote:

I have found that doing

> my Shot every 3 days has kept me more leveled and my

> E2 is much less a problem. I got the idea for one

> of Dr. Shippen's men he said that Dr. Shippen is

> giving him self Shots subQ every 3 days because he

> has found it is keeping his E2 down. My Dr. will

> not let me do subQ but has let me use a small 27g

> 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle to shot in my thigh. I pull

> the plunger down all the way and hold it for about 1

> or 2 min.'s and the T comes out of the vile ok. I

> am also dong HCG the 2 days in between the T shots

> this has my Testis beck up to normal size and and

> working again.

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

The bottom line is if the gels don't work you need to try something that will

work. Don't you feel down.

Phil

Fadden <fadden@...> wrote:

That's an interesting observation. I have not noticed any visible

change in the skin where I apply the Androgel (abdomen and shoulders

mainly). Both areas, especially the abdomen, have always had hair,

which I shave.

Jim

At 06:44 PM 8/14/2006, retrogrouch@... wrote:

>I had absorbtion degradation over time. I found that one of the

>effects of TRT for me was thickening skin, and hair growth on

>application areas, the combination seemed to lead to less

>absorbtion.

>I lost 40% and went back to shots.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:34:02 -0400, you wrote:

>I can say that I don't feel a subjective

>testosterone peak after application. I used to

>feel more of a boost, but not lately, so if there

>is a peak I'm not feeling it (which may or may not mean anything.)

Could mean your E2 is masking it - or that absorbtion is decreasing.

Even with decreased absorbtion though I found a bit of a " kick " in

energy after the morning application.

________________

I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.

Terence

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:43:58 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Hi Reto why test on the 4th day after the shot my Dr. has me test on the day of

the shot we do the blood first then the shot.

It was his choice. I pick my battles with him. He sort of let's me

guide my own therapy somewhat. He's been skeptical and nonsupportive -

but when I present him with studies and ask for Arimidex and things

like that he shrugs and says " okay " . I clearly annoy him with my own

reading and info. So I pick and choose. I figure if the results look

good at halfway through the shot cycle - that'll likely be fine.

> I have found that doing my Shot every 3 days has kept me more leveled and my

E2 is much less a problem. I got the idea for one of Dr. Shippen's men he said

that Dr. Shippen is giving him self Shots subQ every 3 days because he has found

it is keeping his E2 down. My Dr. will not let me do subQ but has let me use a

small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle to shot in my thigh. I pull the plunger down

all the way and hold it for about 1 or 2 min.'s and the T comes out of the vile

ok. I am also dong HCG the 2 days in between the T shots this has my Testis

beck up to normal size and and working again.

I have seen that. I'm not up to doing my own yet. I like having the

nurse do it. If I still have trouble I'll consider it.

>

> Good luck on the Shots I feel much better on them my joint and muscle pain is

gone doing them.

Thanks. yeah when my numbers bottomed out I started to get a lot of

lumbar and spine pain again. Something I'd had trouble with until

after 6 months or more on T. I had osteopenia to reverse from low T

levels. SO I'm guessing some bone density was lost in the year of

lower levels. Shit it took me almost a year to do the follow through

to get to shots. That alone tells me how much drive I'd lost from

lower levels.

________________

I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.

Terence

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:08:14 -0400, you wrote:

>

>

>That's an interesting observation. I have not noticed any visible

>change in the skin where I apply the Androgel (abdomen and shoulders

>mainly). Both areas, especially the abdomen, have always had hair,

>which I shave.

Just to be clear - the thickening is not on the application area. It's

generally. Before starting TRT my skin was very soft and smooth - more

feminine. It seems to have thickened noticeably.

Hair was more concentrated on application areas. I had to take to

shaving them.

>At 06:44 PM 8/14/2006, retrogrouch@... wrote:

>

>>I had absorbtion degradation over time. I found that one of the

>>effects of TRT for me was thickening skin, and hair growth on

>>application areas, the combination seemed to lead to less

>>absorbtion.

>>I lost 40% and went back to shots.

________________

I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.

Terence

[Guest guest]

>

> Just to be clear - the thickening is not on the application area. It's

> generally. Before starting TRT my skin was very soft and smooth - more

> feminine. It seems to have thickened noticeably.

>

> Hair was more concentrated on application areas. I had to take to

> shaving them.

>

You beasty man, you!

[Guest guest]

Hi this is not anything new my Dr. has been doing this for 2 yrs. He

tests Total and Free T with Estradiol on his older men and if the T is low and

Estradiol is high he treats the high Estradiol first then tests again most of

the new men don't need to be on T meds. getting Estradiol down brings up T

levels on some 300 points. Yet this does not work for all just a small amount

of his men. Here is way it works older men have higher levels of Estradiol the

brain can't tell the difference between T and E2 so if the cells are full of E2

the brain thinks it's T and stops sending the messages to the testis to make T.

Getting E2 down the brain now knows T is low and sends the messages.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

Phil

Fadden <fadden@...> wrote:

This is to follow up my post from a couple of weeks ago on this

topic. I believe I have resolved my problem of low T levels on

Androgel.

To recap briefly: I have been on T replacement 13 years. First 10

years by injection. Last three years using Androgel. Two years ago

my T level was 665 ng/dl on 5 GMS of Androgel per day. Recently

however, despite a higher dose, 7.5GMS, my T level was in the

200s. This was 24 hours post dose. I was feeling considerable

fatigue due to the low T level.

At my doctor's suggestion I have now switched to applying the

Androgel twice a day, ie. 2 X 5.0 GMS or a total of 10 GMS a day or 4

pumps/packets twice a day. I apply 4 pumps (5.0 gms) at 7 am. I

shower at around 6 pm and apply another 4 pumps after my shower.

We re-measured the T levels 12 hours after application (just before

the next application) and it is now a respectable 819 ng/dl. Free T

is also high end of normal (22.6 pg/dl).

The increase from 7.5 gms to 10 is only a small part of the reason

for the improved levels as my levels went up by a factor of 4

(200ng/dl to 800ng/dl)).It appears two other factors are

involved. One is how long the application lasts. It appears that

twice daily application works better for me.

However that can't be the whole explanation. At one time I got

reasonably good levels (665) with once a day application of only 5

GMS, but it later declined to only 200 despite an increase in dose to

7.5.

One factor that changed is the time of day I applied it, relative to

the time I took a shower. When I applied Androgel right after a hot

shower it seemed I got good levels for 24 hours. But if I applied

Androgel in the morning but did not shower until the afternoon, my

levels the next day were very low (200s). I shower once daily in

the afternoon following exercise. This causes me to wonder if

showering any time in the 24 hours after applying Androgel will

essentially wash it off and result in low levels until the next

application. I realize that the published studies say it is all

right to shower later in the day after applying Androgel, but my

personal experience at least raises the possibility that this is not

the case for some people.

This isn't proof by any means, but I do wonder about the showering

effect. (Maybe a hot shower removes more than a cold one?)

I'd actually like to test this out by trying it on two days either

before or after a shower and seeing if that makes a difference, but

I'll have to persuade my doctor it is worth the extra testing. Since

I'm now getting good levels with twice a day application he may feel

that further testing is unnecessary.

I'd be curious if others have noticed any effects of showering before

or after Androgel on T levels. Or if anyone has found twice a day

application preferable.

In any case the bottom line is that we have found a resolution of the

problem. My T is right where it should be at 819 ng/dl.

I am pleased because I'd rather not go back to injections. I know

many folks prefer them, but I did injections for 10 years and I

prefer the gel when it works.

Thanks for all the suggestions that helped resolve this problem. You

guys are the greatest.

Jim