Re: immune system ... support or suppress???

[Guest guest]

> I know my son has some autoimmunity (over active immune system), and I

> have read that supplements like zinc support the immune sytem.

Copper is also required for a healthy immune system. Is he still zinc

deficient?

What I

> am wondering is, is it possible that when I give him supplements to

> support the immune system or he gets ill, it actually increases his

> autoimmune response???

Not sure I entirely understand your question. Two of my kids needed

zinc, two needed zinc and copper. All my kids needed vitamin C and

lysine. In the beginning, as their systems were healing and

eliminating resident viruses, they would get sick before they got

better. After a while, I figured out that the viruses would cause

" typical virus symptoms " on the way out. So for example, they would

get a cold for 2 days, or a rash, or sneezes, or warts, etc. So at

first, it might look like the nutrient was causing problems, when

actually it was that the nutrient was eliminating viruses.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Hi Michele,

Totally unscientific, personal opinion based on getting well in the

face of being told by experts " people like you don't get well " :

I have a condition (Cystic Fibrosis) that is deemed to be in part

an " autoimmune disorder " (in that it " overreacts " to some things and

this " overreaction " is viewed as part of the problem by conventional

medical views...those views brought to you by the same people

comfortable condemning me to a slow wasting death since having CF

means it doesn't hurt their professional reputation to completely

fail me). I don't buy it and have come to generally feel that

labeling something an " autoimmune disorder " is a cop-out and

delusional. Everything I have done to get well suggests to me that

if the body is reacting strongly, there is some kind of invader

triggering that reaction, whether viral, bacterial, parasitic, or

chemical/toxic. I would suggest that giving him zinc and other

supplements that trigger this reaction may be arming his immune

system to fight off whatever garbage he is living with normally that

usually flies under the radar.

(Just waiting for someone more knowledgeable than I am to completely

shoot down my unscientific opinion. And I won't be offended. Feel

free to enlighten me. :-) )

Peace.

Another Michele, who is thinking it may be time to change my online

name again. :-)

>

> I have noticed that during and immediately following illness, my

ASD

> son tends to be worse instead of better. When I give him things

like

> zinc even in the smallest doses, he tends to react and displays

> symptoms like when he is sick.

>

> I know my son has some autoimmunity (over active immune system),

and I

> have read that supplements like zinc support the immune sytem.

What I

> am wondering is, is it possible that when I give him supplements

to

> support the immune system or he gets ill, it actually increases

his

> autoimmune response??? I know a DAN I consulted with suggested a

> trial of prednisone which does suppress immune response. So is

giving

> immune support counterindicated in children with autoimmunity who

need

> immune suppressents?

>

> I am so confused.

>

> Michele

>

[Guest guest]

My son has tested as having some autoimmunity.

What I am wondering about is if a child is having an autoimmune

reaction (attacking their own body), if you give things to

strengthen the imuune system are you increasing the autoimmune

reaction as well? So if you have autoimmunity should you be trying

to suppress the immune system so that it stops attacking itself? Or

can you support and suppress the immune system at the same time?

I don't know if I am explaining my thinking well. Sorry.

Michele

> > I know my son has some autoimmunity (over active immune system),

and I

> > have read that supplements like zinc support the immune sytem.

>

>

> Copper is also required for a healthy immune system. Is he still

zinc

> deficient?

>

>

> What I

> > am wondering is, is it possible that when I give him supplements

to

> > support the immune system or he gets ill, it actually increases

his

> > autoimmune response???

>

>

> Not sure I entirely understand your question. Two of my kids

needed

> zinc, two needed zinc and copper. All my kids needed vitamin C and

> lysine. In the beginning, as their systems were healing and

> eliminating resident viruses, they would get sick before they got

> better. After a while, I figured out that the viruses would cause

> " typical virus symptoms " on the way out. So for example, they

would

> get a cold for 2 days, or a rash, or sneezes, or warts, etc. So at

> first, it might look like the nutrient was causing problems, when

> actually it was that the nutrient was eliminating viruses.

>

> Dana

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Michele(s)!

Support - carefully. Deal with pathogens, and clean out the sewage.

Autoimmune responds to immune enhancers and treatment against viruses,

bacteria, fungi, metals. Positive responses for autism, arthritis,

IBD, Multiple Sclerosis, Cancers, much more.

My son has Crohn's disease. IBD is considered to be an autoimmune

disease. ly, I think that is idiotic. But, it works for some. The

IBD (inflammatory bowel disease) protocol calls for Prednisone,

immune suppressants, anti-inflammatories, multiple surgeries - bowel

resections, often ostomy bags, and continued IVs of Remicade or Humira

or cancer drugs such as methotrexate. High percent of ASD has bowel

problems!!

Why do cancer drugs work on AI diseases?

I have never bought the concept of the body attacking itself (except

in a few very rare diseases). I believe -- after extensive research,

reading many IBD, autism, and other health lists, as well as closely

observing -in person- stem cell transplants - that so-called

autoimmunity is actually an overwhelmed immune system.

I believe the immune system is intelligent - not stupid. I believe it

is programmed to combat pathogens. I believe that vaccines - and

antibiotics - and toxins interfere with the immune system doing its

job. Vaccines are bio-engineered, and may not be recognized by the

immune system. Antibiotics (tho' lifesaving) can combat bacteria, but

bacteria change into forms then not recognized by the immune system

such as cell wall deficient bacteria. I believe that mercury sort of

holds some pathogens in chronic suspension, so the body can't

eliminate them... Aluminum interferes with blood and cerebrospinal

fluid production and bone growth.

I believe autoimmune (AI) diseases (including autism) are a crockpot

of infections, allergies, and toxins. So, then, the immune system is

in a chronic state of trying to eliminate these unwelcome boarders

that don't belong. The immune system is chronically engaged in

combating the invaders, and the body gets hit by " friendly fire " , like

trying to swat mosquitos, and smacking the wall behind them.

IMO, immune suppressants disable the immune system, allowing all the

crap to stay there. Some researchers are showing this to be true.

Also, stem cell transplants may cure " autoimmune " diseases. My

neighbor had one, and he is now Crohn's cured.

LDN - Low dose Naltrexone (an old drug revisited) is an immune system

enhancer. It is putting many AI diseases into recovery. See

http://www.low dose naltrexone.org

Research on Enhancing the immune system in Crohn's:

Gut 2007;56:2-5; doi:10.1136/gut.2006.095588

Copyright © 2007 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd & British Society of

Gastroenterology

Is Crohn's disease due to defective immunity?

J R Korzenik

Department of Internal Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, MGH

Crohn's and Colitis Center, 165 Cambridge Street, 9th floor, Boston,

MA 02114, USA; jkorzenik@...

The understanding of the pathophysiology of Crohn's disease is

currently undergoing a reassessment. The concept of this disease as a

primary T cell disorder is being questioned, with a new emphasis on

the role of innate immunity in initiating early events and in

perpetuating the inflammatory state.

Crohn's disease has been proposed instead to result from impaired

innate immunity, encompassing the mucosal barrier and cellular

elements including neutrophils and macrophages. Recent advances in

genetics, functional studies on innate immunity and therapeutic trials

on patients with Crohn's disease have lent support to this evolving

hypothesis.

*****

Nov. 8, 2002 — The immune enhancer granulocyte-macrophage colony

stimulating factor (GM-CSF) sagramostim significantly improved

symptoms in 80% of 15 patients with moderate to severe Crohn's disease

and induced clinical remission in more than 50%, according to a

research letter in the Nov. 9 issue of The Lancet. Symptoms recurred

with discontinuation of the drug, also known by the trade name

Leukine, but then resolved with reinstitution of therapy.

" At first blush, the idea of priming the immune system in patients

with Crohn's disease sounds sort of like throwing oil on a fire, "

senior author R. Korzenik, MD, from Washington University

School of Medicine in St. Louis, Missouri, says in a news release.

" You might compare it to proposing a high cholesterol diet to treat

heart disease. "

Despite the apparent paradox of treating an autoimmune disorder with

an immune stimulant, Dr. Korzenik and first author K.

Dieckgraefe, MD, PhD, noted that several genetic disorders of immunity

were associated with Crohn's-like gastrointestinal problems, notably

glycogen storage disease 1B and chronic granulomatous disease. They

therefore tested GM-CSF in an open-label trial in 15 patients with

moderate to severe Crohn's disease.

" Conventional thinking would have predicted that these drugs could

worsen the disease, " Dr. Dieckgraefe says. " But we thought that these

immune deficiencies provided a good model for how our Crohn's patients

would respond. Furthermore, we knew that GM-CSF was a natural protein

that already was present in the body. "

Of the 15 patients who received daily injections of GM-CSF for eight

weeks, 12 (80%) improved significantly during the study, and eight

(53%) achieved clinical remission after treatment. Mean Crohn's

disease activity index (CDAI) score fell by 190 points (P<.0001), and

average Inflammatory Bowel Disease Questionnaire (IBDQ) score

increased from 108 to 179, reflecting significant improvements in

quality of life.

Ongoing follow-up revealed recurrence when GM-CSF was withdrawn, and

improvement when it was reinstituted.

" The results of this open-label trial make us optimistic that this

approach may someday help large numbers of patients who don't respond

to traditional Crohn's disease therapy, " Dr. Korzenik says. " However,

we need to test our findings in a larger, randomized,

placebo-controlled trial. "

Washington University applied for a patent covering the use of

colony-stimulating factors for the treatment of Crohn's disease, and

then licensed the technology to Berlex, which has begun a large-scale,

multicenter trial of Leukine. The Department of Medicine and both

authors are entitled to a share of the royalties received by the

University from the licensed technology.

Lancet. 2002;360:1478-1479

Reviewed by D. Vogin, MD

Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) Resource Center

****

You are explaining perfectly.!

In , " georgies_mama " <babyjjmama@...>

wrote:

>

> My son has tested as having some autoimmunity.

>

> What I am wondering about is if a child is having an autoimmune

> reaction (attacking their own body), if you give things to

> strengthen the imuune system are you increasing the autoimmune

> reaction as well? So if you have autoimmunity should you be trying

> to suppress the immune system so that it stops attacking itself? Or

> can you support and suppress the immune system at the same time?

>

> I don't know if I am explaining my thinking well. Sorry.

>

> Michele

>

[Guest guest]

> What I am wondering about is if a child is having an autoimmune

> reaction (attacking their own body), if you give things to

> strengthen the imuune system are you increasing the autoimmune

> reaction as well? So if you have autoimmunity should you be trying

> to suppress the immune system so that it stops attacking itself? Or

> can you support and suppress the immune system at the same time?

Well, I sort of understand this. I had been diagnosed with a

pre-lupus type of condition, but I have eliminated the symptoms, so

theoretically I would probably not test as pre-lupus any more. I

think that if you address the underlying reason why the body is

attacking itself, then that will stop it from doing so.

Dana

[Guest guest]

In the beginning, as their systems were healing and

> eliminating resident viruses, they would get sick before they got

> better. After a while, I figured out that the viruses would cause

> " typical virus symptoms " on the way out. So for example, they would

> get a cold for 2 days, or a rash, or sneezes, or warts, etc. So at

> first, it might look like the nutrient was causing problems, when

> actually it was that the nutrient was eliminating viruses.

Dana,

would different antiviral (addressing probably different viruses)cause

different " virus symptoms " ? I mean when I started OLE my DS developed

spotty rash on his face. With lysine he had a few spots on his

buttocks, which reminded me about chickenpox - exactly at the same

place. A week ago I started Virastop. No rash, but after 2 days he

developed high temperature and mild cough. The temperature lasted for

24 hours and then suddenly dropped, and all the cold symptoms were

gone. No problem with his head either. And here is my question. Could

it be viral die off from Virastop or rather common cold which coincided

with Virastop?

Thanks, Galina

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Michele(s)!

>

> Support - carefully. Deal with pathogens, and clean out the

sewage.

--I will back this up: support carefully. When someone is very

sick, you have to gradually get things under control. It's too hard

on the body to take things too quickly. I kind of think of it like

renovating a house, where first you have to have big dumpsters worth

of garbage removed. It takes time to dump that stuff from the body

and pushing it too fast at first can be dangerous and problematic.

I have been throwing up tonight, which is in part the consequence of

pushing

my own healing process too fast over the weekend -- combined with

cutting myself under very unsanitary conditions. This is at least

the third time that I have caused such a huge dumping of toxins that

my body decided to dump them out via vommiting. Not fun. And not

something I would have tolerated well at an earlier healing stage.

I am lots stronger now.

>

> Why do cancer drugs work on AI diseases?

My theory: cancer is rooted in viral infection of some sort. The

tumors remind me of the growth of warts (a viral infection) and

fever blisters (a viral infection). I also know that one cancer

(cervical, I think) is known to be associated with a virus (human

papilloma...something-or-other...I think). Also, my understanding is

that both cancer and viral infections do not thrive in an alkaline

environement. So if part of the problem with an " AI " disease is

viral, and if cancer has some viral root cause or factor, then it

makes sense that cancer drugs would help. Also....um...I think

warts and fever blisters work the way they do because they kind

sneak into the rna or dna of the cell and when the cell replicates,

the virus is spread -- which is why cutting a wart off will make it

grow back a LOT bigger (I made that mistake once with a wart when I

didn't know it was a wart). So it makes sense to me that virii that

can effectively hide themselves in the machinery of the cell and

fake out the body and pretend to be part of the body would readily

look like a part of the body to scientists/doctors and when the body

is actually trying to dig these little <expletives> out, silly

doctors and scientists go " oh, look: the body is attacking ITSELF " .

Sorry, I think not. It's just attacking something cleverly hidden

within itself.

>

> I have never bought the concept of the body attacking itself

(except

> in a few very rare diseases). I believe -- after extensive

research,

> reading many IBD, autism, and other health lists, as well as

closely

> observing -in person- stem cell transplants - that so-called

> autoimmunity is actually an overwhelmed immune system.

---Thank you! That so fits with what I believe. :-)

>

> I believe autoimmune (AI) diseases (including autism) are a

crockpot

> of infections, allergies, and toxins. So, then, the immune system

is

> in a chronic state of trying to eliminate these unwelcome boarders

> that don't belong. The immune system is chronically engaged in

> combating the invaders, and the body gets hit by " friendly fire " ,

like

> trying to swat mosquitos, and smacking the wall behind them.

--Your explanations so work for me. :-)

>

> IMO, immune suppressants disable the immune system, allowing all

the

> crap to stay there.

--I agree (and will skip my rant about how drugs are part of the

problem, doctors are " licensed to push " and so forth).

Michele, chronically posting from the archive, which is why my usual

signature block is missing.

[Guest guest]

> Dana,

> would different antiviral (addressing probably different viruses)cause

> different " virus symptoms " ?

At my house, yes.

>>A week ago I started Virastop. No rash, but after 2 days he

> developed high temperature and mild cough. The temperature lasted for

> 24 hours and then suddenly dropped, and all the cold symptoms were

> gone.

This is a typical result with Virastop [and vitamin C].

>> Could

> it be viral die off from Virastop or rather common cold which coincided

> with Virastop?

Can be either, but because it was only 24 hours, it sounds like my son

when I was pulling cold viruses out of his brain. Those illnesses

usually lasted 24-36 hours for my son.

Dana

[Guest guest]

That was very encouraging, thank you. It seems Virastop is working!

I've got one more question.

I give him 1 capsule twice a day. Is it enough or should I try more?

Do you have any tips how to decide this? His weight is about 33

pounds. And for how long I chould give Virastop? I presume, much

longer after symptoms disappear and I can see no new gains, but how

to decide when I can stop it?

Galina

> > Dana,

> > would different antiviral (addressing probably different viruses)

cause

> > different " virus symptoms " ?

>

>

> At my house, yes.

>

>

> >>A week ago I started Virastop. No rash, but after 2 days he

> > developed high temperature and mild cough. The temperature lasted

for

> > 24 hours and then suddenly dropped, and all the cold symptoms

were

> > gone.

>

>

> This is a typical result with Virastop [and vitamin C].

>

>

> >> Could

> > it be viral die off from Virastop or rather common cold which

coincided

> > with Virastop?

>

>

> Can be either, but because it was only 24 hours, it sounds like my

son

> when I was pulling cold viruses out of his brain. Those illnesses

> usually lasted 24-36 hours for my son.

>

> Dana

>

[Guest guest]

> That was very encouraging, thank you. It seems Virastop is working!

> I've got one more question.

> I give him 1 capsule twice a day. Is it enough or should I try more?

You can increase it if you want. Watch for more yeast overgrowth.

> Do you have any tips how to decide this? His weight is about 33

> pounds.

I increased by one capsule every time my son seemed to reach a plateau.

>> And for how long I chould give Virastop? I presume, much

> longer after symptoms disappear and I can see no new gains, but how

> to decide when I can stop it?

I removed it when it started causing problems and no more benefits. I

also removed OLE at approx the same time. The vitamin C and lysine

were required after that.

Dana