Re: Less frequent dosing and internet troll behavior

[Guest guest]

> >>She has said she

> > doesn't deal well with the social/emotional end of things.

>

>

> Yes, I am much better with facts.

>

>

> >> In my

> > view, she made a tactical blunder in that she chose to argue the

> > details of chelation when her real point was about group culture.

>

>

> Not sure I tried to " argue " about the details, but there is still

one

> main unresolved question that I have asked several times with no

> responses. There are a sufficient number of knowledgeable people

> here, so if that information was available, I am sure someone would

> have posted it. But no one has, so therefore I am left to conclude

> that the information is not available.

>

> Which in turn does provide me with my answer. There is no

information

> on that issue/question.

>

>

> >>I would encourage you to chalk the

> > incident up to a miscommunication and, yes, just move on and

invest

> > no further effort in trying to sort it out with her. It

probably

> > won't get any better now that it has gone this far.

>

>

> It does appear to me that further attempts would be futile, as

neither

> one of us appears to be able to respond sufficiently to the other's

> inquiries.

>

> Dana

>

Well, it seems most of the recent posts have been conciliatory.

Hopefully the thread is dying a natural death without leaving behind

the festering wounds such threads so often cause.

BTW, I was at one time asked to moderate this list. I turned it down

in part because I was going through a divorce and semi-homeless at

the time, so I was in no position to keep up with the list. I also

turned it down in part because I felt that it would be best if the

moderator was knowledgeable about chelation. I don't have the

knowledge it takes to answer questions about chelation. Your " just

the facts " style and abundance of knowledge seems to have been very

good for the list. I am glad the role went to you.

Hoping this is about my last post in the thread so the list can move

on to other things.

Thanks.

Michele

[Guest guest]

Please reread your posts in this thread and try to find the

inconsistencies you've made and the false inferences you've drawn.

Also, I don't beleive your only motivated by fear; whether you know

it or not, you DO have a good heart.

Best wishes,

> >

> > Hey ,

> >

> > " I don't think I am talking about " behavior " . I think I am

talking

> > about trying to communicate effectively. "

> >

> > You ARE talking about behavior - you cannot communicate

> (effectively

> > or not) without behavior (defined as " manner of acting or

> conducting

> > yourself " ).

>

> Words are often a rather crude attempt to convey meaning from the

> mind of one being to the mind of another. If " behavior " is a more

> effective medium for conveying my meaning, I go that route. The

> ultimate goal is still communication.

>

>

> Also, in the ten paragraphs you typed, I'm still

> looking

> > for you're amswer to the question posed, " what does it take

> for

> > people to understand why ALA must be dosed at 3 h intervals? "

>

> I don't think you can reach people if you assume they think exactly

> like you do and if you think that hard research (etc) is the ONLY

> effective means to make judgement calls. Those people unable to

> comprehend things in the same way comprehends things aren't

> simply " stupid " as her remarks seem to imply. They may just

process

> information differently, draw conclusions differently, etc.

> Understanding how someone draws those conclusions when they are

> unable to do what she does can help in figuring out how to present

> information to them in a way they find useful.

>

> When I was in 11th grade, I tutored a mentally handicapped girl who

> for some reason was taking algebra. She often just couldn't get my

> first explanation. Or my second. Or my third. But unlike me, she

> also never got exasperated and she never expressed the idea that

she

> was ready to simply give up out of frustration. I graduated STAR

> student and a national merit scholarship winner. I never worked as

> hard for my A's and B's as she worked for her C's and D's. I

> couldn't bring myself to just give up on her when she wasn't going

> to give up on herself. I learned to explain things up to 12

> different ways if that was what it took for her to get it. A lot

of

> times, people who do readily grasp something are the ones who just

> have no patience for someone who needs more time, more repetition,

> or another format of presentation. (This includes me. I wasn't

born

> with any patience at all.) That's fine if you just want to feel

> superior. But it accomplishes nothing if your goal is to help them.

>

> As a different example, I run several websites. Those also started

> while I was extremely ill. Someone else was interested in

> publishing something I said on their website, it grew from one page

> to several, I eventually took it over. When I took it over, I knew

> nothing at all about running websites. I actually now have a

> Certificate in Geographic Information Systems, which is a very

> technical field, but the technical stuff is not my area of

> strength. Some people who valued the information I had to offer

and

> also had more technical expertise than I had were willing to help

me

> without treating me like I was an idiot. Others with more technical

> expertise were quite ugly to me and I didn't find

> their " suggestions " helpful or even palatable and stopped talking

to

> them. I now code my websites by hand. But it took a long time to

> get here from there and I couldn't have done it without live human

> beings explaining things to me. Looking information up wouldn't

> have helped. There are people here in a similar circumstance who

> really need someone to explain it to them. Telling them " I can't

> help it if you don't understand basic science " and then complaining

> those folks " don't listen " doesn't make sense to me. (I have heard

> Andy say something along those lines to someone.)

>

> Those people unable to do the research -- due to their education

> level or due to time constraints or due to how sick they are or for

> whatever reason -- often cannot get the information without someone

> taking the time to patiently explain things. They want the

> information. They just have obstacles to acquiring it.

>

> >

> > Some people are better at science; you are better with your

> > interpersonal skills. If someone were to insist that it would be

> > beneficial for you to be more scientific in your logic, it

> wouldn't

> > be very helpful. Similarly, some people will deride minimal

> benefit

> > from persistent recommendation that they should interact with

> people

> > in the manner you've found effective. I AGREE that you handled

> your

> > father better than your mother, but your mother must have been

> wired

> > differently enough that she wouldn't/couldn't acquire your

> approach

> > (despite it's greater efficacy). Personality (which has great

> > bearing on how we communicate) is based largely on genetic

> factors.

>

> Genes are the same material as virii. And my son with CF and I are

> losing some of our " CF Traits " . I have difficulty believing that

> personality or even genetics is as fixed as your remarks suggest.

I

> also did a lot of therapy/introspection/work on myself when I was

> younger. People can change a great many things that are typically

> assumed to be fairly fixed.

>

> > Because we are all wired differently, we can't expect everyone to

> be

> > comfortable with the mode of communication you've had the most

> > success with.

>

> I'm not suggesting everyone should do what I do. My main hope in

> sharing that information is to convey what it can be like for

> someone who has tremendous burdens and wants the help. Blaming

> them, jumping to the conclusion that they don't really want to get

> better because they are slower to grasp it than you are, etc,

> doesn't further the goal of helping them. Some people are just

> really overwhelmed and doing the best they can. Those folks have

> less ability to stand up for themselves, are very often less

> emotionally resilient in the face of hostility and so forth.

>

> > Also, do you think that Andy would be able to address as many

sick

> > peoples' questions if he were busy considering and reconsidering

> his

> > wording for the sake of everyone's emotional needs?

>

> I am not interested in suggesting that Andy do any such thing.

Andy

> has a goal of improving on his track record. I am willing to try

to

> support that. I don't tell my own kids how to live their lives.

> Why would I want to tell Andy how he should behave? Most likely,

if

> there is anything he can get out of my remarks, it is insight, not

> advice. That insight might help him reach his goal. Advice is not

> really likely to.

>

> Based on

> > everything you've written (that I've read) I consider you to be a

> > very special, loving, and considerate person. It is people like

> you

> > who serve to balance the style of others who express themselves

> > differently.

>

> But I don't think I am loving and considerate and all that. I do

> what I do because it is practical. Having the patience and self

> restraint to refrain from blurting something asinine can save weeks

> or months worth of trying to undo the damage -- or years of simply

> hurling blame back and forth while the problem deepens. I listen to

> how frustrated other parents are with their kids talking back to

> them and their kids fighting amongst themselves and the ugly,

> embittered divorces and so forth and I think to myself " I have too

> many problems to put up with that. I would have died if I did

> things that way. " Most people spend a lot of time pointing fingers

> and saying " he started it " -- both sides usually believe with great

> conviction that the other person started it. I look at such

> situations and wonder how to end it and realize that pointing

> fingers only keeps one stuck. Ending it usually involves

> acting " loving " and " considerate " . I am not necessarily

> being " considerate " of others. Sometimes I am just too impatient

to

> put up with weeks or months of utter bullshit I know will ensue if

I

> behave otherwise.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Best Regards,

> >

> >

>

> Thanks.

>

> Michele

>

[Guest guest]

I am unaware of inconsistencies and false inferences. If you would

like to tell me where you think those are (off list, please), I would

be willing to hear how I come across to you.

I did not state I was driven by fear. I said that treating other

people with respect is not something I do out of bleeding heart

idealism but because it is effective: whether I am feeling all loving

and kind-hearted towards them or wishing they would drop dead and get

off my back, in the end, what really matters is that I took the time

to treat them decently.

I am aware I have " a good heart " . As I stated earlier, I am someone

who tends to care about people, even people I don't know well and even

people who are clearly hostile towards me. However, as noted above,

you don't have to " have a good heart " or particularly like someone to

get tangible benefits from being habitually courteous.

Peace.

Michele

>

> Please reread your posts in this thread and try to find the

> inconsistencies you've made and the false inferences you've drawn.

> Also, I don't beleive your only motivated by fear; whether you know

> it or not, you DO have a good heart.

>

> Best wishes,

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I did not state I was driven by fear.

When you said, " Sometimes I am just too impatient to put up with

weeks or months of utter bullshit I know will ensue if I behave

otherwise " you indicated that being polite is not something you do

out of kindness but, rather, to avoid something worse. You clearly

conveyed that fear of repercussions (not benevolence) is your reason

for acting polite.

Take care,

In , " Michele " <talithamichele@...>

wrote:

>

> I am unaware of inconsistencies and false inferences. If you would

> like to tell me where you think those are (off list, please), I

would

> be willing to hear how I come across to you.

>

> I did not state I was driven by fear. I said that treating other

> people with respect is not something I do out of bleeding heart

> idealism but because it is effective: whether I am feeling all

loving

> and kind-hearted towards them or wishing they would drop dead and

get

> off my back, in the end, what really matters is that I took the

time

> to treat them decently.

>

> I am aware I have " a good heart " . As I stated earlier, I am

someone

> who tends to care about people, even people I don't know well and

even

> people who are clearly hostile towards me. However, as noted

above,

> you don't have to " have a good heart " or particularly like someone

to

> get tangible benefits from being habitually courteous.

>

> Peace.

>

> Michele

>

>

> >

> > Please reread your posts in this thread and try to find the

> > inconsistencies you've made and the false inferences you've

drawn.

> > Also, I don't beleive your only motivated by fear; whether you

know

> > it or not, you DO have a good heart.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You're right: I should have exercised better judgement...

> > >

> > > Please reread your posts in this thread and try to find the

> > > inconsistencies you've made and the false inferences you've

> drawn.

> > > Also, I don't beleive your only motivated by fear; whether you

> know

> > > it or not, you DO have a good heart.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The End.

> > >

> > > Please reread your posts in this thread and try to find the

> > > inconsistencies you've made and the false inferences you've

> drawn.

> > > Also, I don't beleive your only motivated by fear; whether you

> know

> > > it or not, you DO have a good heart.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you!

> >

> > Someone please please end this thread : )