Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Posted February 25, 2004 Lower your E2 using arimidex or aromasin, not lowering your t gel. That will make you feel much better. Lowering t gel may or may not have a positive effect on lowering estradiol, but it won't completely solve the problem and probably won't change the testosterone/estradiol ratio. Armyguy > My T is 1141, up from 230 and E2 is 59, up from cc, after taking 1o > gr Androgel for about weeks and 5 gram for about 4 weeks. > > Endo. never prescribed any anti-aromatics. He wants to lower E2 by > reducing Androgel to 7.5 gr/day. Don't I need Arimidex or the like > to lower E2, not just less T.\ > > PS: Went to a urologist yesterday who was clueless on effect of T > on testicles - they have shrunk and migrated inside. So am going to > another urologist. > > Ridge Quote
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Posted February 25, 2004 > My T is 1141, up from 230 and E2 is 59, up from cc, after taking 1o > gr Androgel for about weeks and 5 gram for about 4 weeks. > Did you do the 10g first or the 5g first and then switch to 10g? > Endo. never prescribed any anti-aromatics. He wants to lower E2 by > reducing Androgel to 7.5 gr/day. Don't I need Arimidex or the like > to lower E2, not just less T.\ > I don't know that the word " need " is appropriate. Either lowering your test dose, introducing an aromatase inhibitor, or some combination of both would work. Convincing your doc that an aromatase inhibitor would work probably wouldn't be that difficult. I expect his concern is not what would work but rather what approach is the most appropriate. You don't mention the reference range for your t level. 1141ng/dl would be an ample amount in most labs' ranges, so I would guess your doc thinks a lower dose of test is more appropriate than introducing another drug. Brad > PS: Went to a urologist yesterday who was clueless on effect of T > on testicles - they have shrunk and migrated inside. So am going to > another urologist. > > Ridge Quote
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Posted February 25, 2004 > > My T is 1141, up from 230 and E2 is 59, up from cc, after taking 1o > > gr Androgel for about weeks and 5 gram for about 4 weeks. > > > > Did you do the 10g first or the 5g first and then switch to 10g? > > > Endo. never prescribed any anti-aromatics. He wants to lower E2 by > > reducing Androgel to 7.5 gr/day. Don't I need Arimidex or the like > > to lower E2, not just less T.\ > > > > I don't know that the word " need " is appropriate. Either lowering > your test dose, introducing an aromatase inhibitor, or some > combination of both would work. > > Convincing your doc that an aromatase inhibitor would work probably > wouldn't be that difficult. I expect his concern is not what would > work but rather what approach is the most appropriate. > > You don't mention the reference range for your t level. 1141ng/dl > would be an ample amount in most labs' ranges, so I would guess your > doc thinks a lower dose of test is more appropriate than introducing > another drug. > > Brad > > Endo has reduced the T dosage to 3.75 gm/day from 5. No other meds involved. But I am looking into a second opinion. Ridge > > PS: Went to a urologist yesterday who was clueless on effect of T > > on testicles - they have shrunk and migrated inside. So am going to > > another urologist. > > > > Ridge Quote
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Posted February 25, 2004 > > Endo has reduced the T dosage to 3.75 gm/day from 5. No other meds > involved. But I am looking into a second opinion. > > Ridge Maybe the labs are inaccurate. How soon till you have repeat bloodwork? Brad Quote
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Posted February 26, 2004 Ouch. At 3.75 G don't expect to feel the benefits of testosterone replacement. Most guys at that level would have blood level of testosterone well below 400. Definitely a very very low dose, which of course, will keep your natural production completely shut down as with a high dose. Armyguy > > > My T is 1141, up from 230 and E2 is 59, up from cc, after taking > 1o > > > gr Androgel for about weeks and 5 gram for about 4 weeks. > > > > > > > Did you do the 10g first or the 5g first and then switch to 10g? > > > > > Endo. never prescribed any anti-aromatics. He wants to lower E2 > by > > > reducing Androgel to 7.5 gr/day. Don't I need Arimidex or the > like > > > to lower E2, not just less T.\ > > > > > > > I don't know that the word " need " is appropriate. Either lowering > > your test dose, introducing an aromatase inhibitor, or some > > combination of both would work. > > > > Convincing your doc that an aromatase inhibitor would work probably > > wouldn't be that difficult. I expect his concern is not what would > > work but rather what approach is the most appropriate. > > > > You don't mention the reference range for your t level. 1141ng/dl > > would be an ample amount in most labs' ranges, so I would guess your > > doc thinks a lower dose of test is more appropriate than introducing > > another drug. > > > > Brad > > > > > > Endo has reduced the T dosage to 3.75 gm/day from 5. No other meds > involved. But I am looking into a second opinion. > > Ridge > > > PS: Went to a urologist yesterday who was clueless on effect of > T > > > on testicles - they have shrunk and migrated inside. So am going > to > > > another urologist. > > > > > > Ridge Quote
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Posted March 25, 2008 The jury is still out on soy in my opinion. Muscle & Fitness ran an article recently indicating recent research that showed lower estrogen in soy eaters (protein powders). Are you fat? Fat cells generate aromatose, but that's kind of chicken or egg things cause high estrogen makes you fat, and fat makes estrogen. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 25, 2008, at 11:49 AM, " wmmarbury " <wmmarbury@...> wrote: > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than taking Indolplex > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > prescription? > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down into > the twenties. > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems that > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone into > Estradiol. > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > cabbage > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > metabolism of Estradiol. > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Posted March 26, 2008 Hi Tom Sweet, I took your advice and ordered the Indolplex with DIM from iHerb.com - 120 capsules for $21 with shipping. Thanks for the tip. > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > taking Indolplex > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > > prescription? > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > into > > the twenties. > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > that > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > into > > Estradiol. > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > cabbage > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > > metabolism of Estradiol. > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > you see. " > > Phil > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Posted March 26, 2008 Wouldn't just taking it with a bit of fatty food have the same affect? Unless you're somehow binding the DIM powder to the oil there is no pysiological reason, other than the power of suggestion, to think that taking it with oil would improve absorption. Your stomach is full of powerful acids, designed specifically to break all that stuff, including olive oil, into digestible components... On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:34 PM, philip georgian wrote: > Nature's way did not move my E2 at all I later found out from some > of the guys taking it with oil makes it work gets past the stomach > with out dieing. I think he opened the caps and pored the DIM into > some Olive oil then took it. > > Most of the guys I tell about this don't have night time and > morning wood and they get it back in about 2 to 4 weeks this is a > good gage on it working. So when on it DIM that is if you get > morning wood and it stops this can mean your going down to low on > your E2 so stop it until the wood comes back that day go back on it > but do half the dose. > > Tom Sweet <thomasjsweet@...> wrote: > You can order " nature's way " brand from iherb.com That is > what I use. $20 > for a bottle. I take two caps a day. > > From: [mailto: > ] > On Behalf Of wmmarbury > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:43 AM > > Subject: Re: Lowering Estradiol > > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a pharmacy and priced > Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - that's about $10 per tablet. This is > prohibitively expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? > > The Indolplex with DIM that I am now taking states that it has 120 mg > of the Indolplex complex. I paid $38 for 60 tablets. It is produced > by Phytopharmica of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I bought it through > Amazon.com Online. Does anyone know where Indolplex can be bought > cheaper? > > I have been taking Indolplex for 18 days - usually one tablet per day > with a meal. I'll have to wait until July, 2008, to have my Estradiol > level checked again, so I don't know what effect the Indolplex is > having. > > The normal range given to me for Estradiol is < or = 29 pg/mL (less > than or equal to 29 pg/mL); my level is 37 pg/mL. Other normal ranges > have a high of 50 or 70 pg/mL. My test was done through the Veterans' > Administration (VA); my endocrinologist said that this is definitely > the test for Estradiol. > > In order not to stimulate the excessive production of aromatase in my > body, I am using the gell twice a day and rubbing in only about 8 mg > at a time. It seems logical that the more times per day that the > application of the gell is made, the less that the body will be > stimulated to produce aromatase, and, therefore, the less that the > applied testosterone will be converted by the aromatase into > Estradiol. > > I tried rubbing in 50 mg of the gell all at the same time for a > couple of days, but I found myself becoming very fatigued during the > day; I had to take a nap on those days. Evidently, my body reacts > very quickly to exogenous testosterone and immediately produces the > enzyme aromatase, which converts much of the testosterone into > Estradiol, which causes fatigue. I have cut back to about 16 > mg per day of the gell, and I now rub in twice a day. > > Thanks again Phil for your insight on these matters. > Bill > > >> Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > taking Indolplex >> (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? >> >> Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? >> >> Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a >> prescription? >> >> My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > into >> the twenties. >> >> I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > that >> aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > into >> Estradiol. >> >> I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > cabbage >> daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the >> metabolism of Estradiol. >> >> Thanks for the help, Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > you see. " >> Phil >> >> --------------------------------- >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > Try it now. >> >> Quote
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Posted March 26, 2008 I never tried it but it come up when I told them I tried there brand and it did not work. Indolplex it a trade name and it keeps the DIM from getting killed in the stomach. Dave <groupsdude@...> wrote: Wouldn't just taking it with a bit of fatty food have the same affect? Unless you're somehow binding the DIM powder to the oil there is no pysiological reason, other than the power of suggestion, to think that taking it with oil would improve absorption. Your stomach is full of powerful acids, designed specifically to break all that stuff, including olive oil, into digestible components... On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:34 PM, philip georgian wrote: > Nature's way did not move my E2 at all I later found out from some > of the guys taking it with oil makes it work gets past the stomach > with out dieing. I think he opened the caps and pored the DIM into > some Olive oil then took it. > > Most of the guys I tell about this don't have night time and > morning wood and they get it back in about 2 to 4 weeks this is a > good gage on it working. So when on it DIM that is if you get > morning wood and it stops this can mean your going down to low on > your E2 so stop it until the wood comes back that day go back on it > but do half the dose. > > Tom Sweet <thomasjsweet@...> wrote: > You can order " nature's way " brand from iherb.com That is > what I use. $20 > for a bottle. I take two caps a day. > > From: [mailto: > ] > On Behalf Of wmmarbury > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:43 AM > > Subject: Re: Lowering Estradiol > > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a pharmacy and priced > Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - that's about $10 per tablet. This is > prohibitively expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? > > The Indolplex with DIM that I am now taking states that it has 120 mg > of the Indolplex complex. I paid $38 for 60 tablets. It is produced > by Phytopharmica of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I bought it through > Amazon.com Online. Does anyone know where Indolplex can be bought > cheaper? > > I have been taking Indolplex for 18 days - usually one tablet per day > with a meal. I'll have to wait until July, 2008, to have my Estradiol > level checked again, so I don't know what effect the Indolplex is > having. > > The normal range given to me for Estradiol is < or = 29 pg/mL (less > than or equal to 29 pg/mL); my level is 37 pg/mL. Other normal ranges > have a high of 50 or 70 pg/mL. My test was done through the Veterans' > Administration (VA); my endocrinologist said that this is definitely > the test for Estradiol. > > In order not to stimulate the excessive production of aromatase in my > body, I am using the gell twice a day and rubbing in only about 8 mg > at a time. It seems logical that the more times per day that the > application of the gell is made, the less that the body will be > stimulated to produce aromatase, and, therefore, the less that the > applied testosterone will be converted by the aromatase into > Estradiol. > > I tried rubbing in 50 mg of the gell all at the same time for a > couple of days, but I found myself becoming very fatigued during the > day; I had to take a nap on those days. Evidently, my body reacts > very quickly to exogenous testosterone and immediately produces the > enzyme aromatase, which converts much of the testosterone into > Estradiol, which causes fatigue. I have cut back to about 16 > mg per day of the gell, and I now rub in twice a day. > > Thanks again Phil for your insight on these matters. > Bill > > >> Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > taking Indolplex >> (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? >> >> Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? >> >> Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a >> prescription? >> >> My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > into >> the twenties. >> >> I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > that >> aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > into >> Estradiol. >> >> I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > cabbage >> daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the >> metabolism of Estradiol. >> >> Thanks for the help, Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > you see. " >> Phil >> >> --------------------------------- >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > Try it now. >> >> Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 The directions for DIM is to take it with a " light meal. " A good brand will also contain calcium. The brand that works well for is Estrobalance by Enzymatic Therapy. Find it in the womens section at most health food stores. That kept his level in the mid teen range nicely. Good luck. Vickie In , philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: > > I never tried it but it come up when I told them I tried there brand and it did not work. Indolplex it a trade name and it keeps the DIM from getting killed in the stomach. > > Dave <groupsdude@...> wrote: Wouldn't just taking it with a bit of fatty food have the same > affect? Unless you're somehow binding the DIM powder to the oil there > is no pysiological reason, other than the power of suggestion, to > think that taking it with oil would improve absorption. > > Your stomach is full of powerful acids, designed specifically to break > all that stuff, including olive oil, into digestible components... > > On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:34 PM, philip georgian wrote: > > > Nature's way did not move my E2 at all I later found out from some > > of the guys taking it with oil makes it work gets past the stomach > > with out dieing. I think he opened the caps and pored the DIM into > > some Olive oil then took it. > > > > Most of the guys I tell about this don't have night time and > > morning wood and they get it back in about 2 to 4 weeks this is a > > good gage on it working. So when on it DIM that is if you get > > morning wood and it stops this can mean your going down to low on > > your E2 so stop it until the wood comes back that day go back on it > > but do half the dose. > > > > Tom Sweet <thomasjsweet@...> wrote: > > You can order " nature's way " brand from iherb.com That is > > what I use. $20 > > for a bottle. I take two caps a day. > > > > From: [mailto: > > ] > > On Behalf Of wmmarbury > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:43 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Lowering Estradiol > > > > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a pharmacy and priced > > Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - that's about $10 per tablet. This is > > prohibitively expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? > > > > The Indolplex with DIM that I am now taking states that it has 120 mg > > of the Indolplex complex. I paid $38 for 60 tablets. It is produced > > by Phytopharmica of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I bought it through > > Amazon.com Online. Does anyone know where Indolplex can be bought > > cheaper? > > > > I have been taking Indolplex for 18 days - usually one tablet per day > > with a meal. I'll have to wait until July, 2008, to have my Estradiol > > level checked again, so I don't know what effect the Indolplex is > > having. > > > > The normal range given to me for Estradiol is < or = 29 pg/mL (less > > than or equal to 29 pg/mL); my level is 37 pg/mL. Other normal ranges > > have a high of 50 or 70 pg/mL. My test was done through the Veterans' > > Administration (VA); my endocrinologist said that this is definitely > > the test for Estradiol. > > > > In order not to stimulate the excessive production of aromatase in my > > body, I am using the gell twice a day and rubbing in only about 8 mg > > at a time. It seems logical that the more times per day that the > > application of the gell is made, the less that the body will be > > stimulated to produce aromatase, and, therefore, the less that the > > applied testosterone will be converted by the aromatase into > > Estradiol. > > > > I tried rubbing in 50 mg of the gell all at the same time for a > > couple of days, but I found myself becoming very fatigued during the > > day; I had to take a nap on those days. Evidently, my body reacts > > very quickly to exogenous testosterone and immediately produces the > > enzyme aromatase, which converts much of the testosterone into > > Estradiol, which causes fatigue. I have cut back to about 16 > > mg per day of the gell, and I now rub in twice a day. > > > > Thanks again Phil for your insight on these matters. > > Bill > > > > > >> Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > > taking Indolplex > >> (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > >> > >> Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > >> > >> Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > >> prescription? > >> > >> My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > > into > >> the twenties. > >> > >> I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > > that > >> aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > > into > >> Estradiol. > >> > >> I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > > cabbage > >> daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > >> metabolism of Estradiol. > >> > >> Thanks for the help, Bill > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > > you see. " > >> Phil > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > > Try it now. > >> > >> Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 Yes I have heard good things about this and this one. http://www.drugnatural.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD & Store_Code=DMOS & Product_\ Code=156497 I like this one because it comes in tablets and you can cut them in half. I did real good on them and it was only a half a tablet. http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html Vickie <plp40@...> wrote: The directions for DIM is to take it with a " light meal. " A good brand will also contain calcium. The brand that works well for is Estrobalance by Enzymatic Therapy. Find it in the womens section at most health food stores. That kept his level in the mid teen range nicely. Good luck. Vickie In , philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: > > I never tried it but it come up when I told them I tried there brand and it did not work. Indolplex it a trade name and it keeps the DIM from getting killed in the stomach. > > Dave <groupsdude@...> wrote: Wouldn't just taking it with a bit of fatty food have the same > affect? Unless you're somehow binding the DIM powder to the oil there > is no pysiological reason, other than the power of suggestion, to > think that taking it with oil would improve absorption. > > Your stomach is full of powerful acids, designed specifically to break > all that stuff, including olive oil, into digestible components... > > On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:34 PM, philip georgian wrote: > > > Nature's way did not move my E2 at all I later found out from some > > of the guys taking it with oil makes it work gets past the stomach > > with out dieing. I think he opened the caps and pored the DIM into > > some Olive oil then took it. > > > > Most of the guys I tell about this don't have night time and > > morning wood and they get it back in about 2 to 4 weeks this is a > > good gage on it working. So when on it DIM that is if you get > > morning wood and it stops this can mean your going down to low on > > your E2 so stop it until the wood comes back that day go back on it > > but do half the dose. > > > > Tom Sweet <thomasjsweet@...> wrote: > > You can order " nature's way " brand from iherb.com That is > > what I use. $20 > > for a bottle. I take two caps a day. > > > > From: [mailto: > > ] > > On Behalf Of wmmarbury > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:43 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Lowering Estradiol > > > > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a pharmacy and priced > > Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - that's about $10 per tablet. This is > > prohibitively expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? > > > > The Indolplex with DIM that I am now taking states that it has 120 mg > > of the Indolplex complex. I paid $38 for 60 tablets. It is produced > > by Phytopharmica of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I bought it through > > Amazon.com Online. Does anyone know where Indolplex can be bought > > cheaper? > > > > I have been taking Indolplex for 18 days - usually one tablet per day > > with a meal. I'll have to wait until July, 2008, to have my Estradiol > > level checked again, so I don't know what effect the Indolplex is > > having. > > > > The normal range given to me for Estradiol is < or = 29 pg/mL (less > > than or equal to 29 pg/mL); my level is 37 pg/mL. Other normal ranges > > have a high of 50 or 70 pg/mL. My test was done through the Veterans' > > Administration (VA); my endocrinologist said that this is definitely > > the test for Estradiol. > > > > In order not to stimulate the excessive production of aromatase in my > > body, I am using the gell twice a day and rubbing in only about 8 mg > > at a time. It seems logical that the more times per day that the > > application of the gell is made, the less that the body will be > > stimulated to produce aromatase, and, therefore, the less that the > > applied testosterone will be converted by the aromatase into > > Estradiol. > > > > I tried rubbing in 50 mg of the gell all at the same time for a > > couple of days, but I found myself becoming very fatigued during the > > day; I had to take a nap on those days. Evidently, my body reacts > > very quickly to exogenous testosterone and immediately produces the > > enzyme aromatase, which converts much of the testosterone into > > Estradiol, which causes fatigue. I have cut back to about 16 > > mg per day of the gell, and I now rub in twice a day. > > > > Thanks again Phil for your insight on these matters. > > Bill > > > > > >> Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > > taking Indolplex > >> (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > >> > >> Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > >> > >> Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > >> prescription? > >> > >> My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > > into > >> the twenties. > >> > >> I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > > that > >> aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > > into > >> Estradiol. > >> > >> I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > > cabbage > >> daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > >> metabolism of Estradiol. > >> > >> Thanks for the help, Bill > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > > you see. " > >> Phil > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > > Try it now. > >> > >> Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 I agree Vickie. Estrobalance by Enzymatic Therapy is what i use also. kissie Re: Lowering Estradiol > > > > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a pharmacy and priced > > Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - that's about $10 per tablet. This is > > prohibitively expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? > > > > The Indolplex with DIM that I am now taking states that it has 120 mg > > of the Indolplex complex. I paid $38 for 60 tablets. It is produced > > by Phytopharmica of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I bought it through > > Amazon.com Online. Does anyone know where Indolplex can be bought > > cheaper? > > > > I have been taking Indolplex for 18 days - usually one tablet per day > > with a meal. I'll have to wait until July, 2008, to have my Estradiol > > level checked again, so I don't know what effect the Indolplex is > > having. > > > > The normal range given to me for Estradiol is < or = 29 pg/mL (less > > than or equal to 29 pg/mL); my level is 37 pg/mL. Other normal ranges > > have a high of 50 or 70 pg/mL. My test was done through the Veterans' > > Administration (VA); my endocrinologist said that this is definitely > > the test for Estradiol. > > > > In order not to stimulate the excessive production of aromatase in my > > body, I am using the gell twice a day and rubbing in only about 8 mg > > at a time. It seems logical that the more times per day that the > > application of the gell is made, the less that the body will be > > stimulated to produce aromatase, and, therefore, the less that the > > applied testosterone will be converted by the aromatase into > > Estradiol. > > > > I tried rubbing in 50 mg of the gell all at the same time for a > > couple of days, but I found myself becoming very fatigued during the > > day; I had to take a nap on those days. Evidently, my body reacts > > very quickly to exogenous testosterone and immediately produces the > > enzyme aromatase, which converts much of the testosterone into > > Estradiol, which causes fatigue. I have cut back to about 16 > > mg per day of the gell, and I now rub in twice a day. > > > > Thanks again Phil for your insight on these matters. > > Bill > > > > > >> Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > > taking Indolplex > >> (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > >> > >> Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > >> > >> Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > >> prescription? > >> > >> My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > > into > >> the twenties. > >> > >> I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > > that > >> aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > > into > >> Estradiol. > >> > >> I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > > cabbage > >> daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > >> metabolism of Estradiol. > >> > >> Thanks for the help, Bill > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > > you see. " > >> Phil > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > > Try it now. > >> > >> Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 Hi Phil: According to what you wrote, a too-low level of Estradiol will also affect the libido. This presents the quandary of not knowing whether or not one's libido is being affected by a too-low Testosterone level or a too-low Estradiol level. Do you have any comment about this that might help to isolate the actual cause of a low libido? Is the only way to know for sure what is causing a low libido to have blood tests done for Testosterone and Estradiol? > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > taking Indolplex > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > > prescription? > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > into > > the twenties. > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > that > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > into > > Estradiol. > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > cabbage > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > > metabolism of Estradiol. > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > you see. " > > Phil > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 Libido has a lot to do with many things most of the testing done yrs. ago for low testosterone and still today Dr.'s don't test Estradiol " E2 " . In this study it shows if E2 is to high your testosteone levels along with your LH and FSH will be low looking like one has a pituitary problem. http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174 And this is happening to younger men. What happens is the brain can't tell the difference between E2 and Testosterone so if E2 is to high the brain thinks it is Testosterone and slows down sending the messages to the Testis of LH and FSH to make more testosterone it sees the E2 as Testosterone. So we end up with low testosterone and low LH and FSH looking like we are Secondary. Yet just treating this high E2 can bring Testosterone levels back up some 200 to 300 points on TT. To put a man on TRT with out testing E2 today is nuts if the E2 is high and the man goes on TRT this just drives the E2 even higher. Estradiol when to high or to low kills libido and kills a mans penis giving him ED and in some cases problems reaching an orgasm. Even taking Viagra would not work. Many men have not lost there libido with low T I was one my TT when I was first tested was 120 and my libido was still high I was just to dam fatigued to care about it. Yet I still had sex 2 x's a week with High or Low E2 you can't have sex. And E2 is about your libido you need E2 at the right range to have a libido. So doing the testing on this is very impotent both before treating low testosterone and after. So many times one would read about this and get something to bring down there E2 not testing it first and drive it into the ground. I had been on TRT for about 10 yrs when I got some bad ED problems and was shocked to see this fixed after testing very high on E2. The first thing that came back after many yrs. of not having them was night time and morning wood. Then I lost it again because my E2 went down to low. So today I use my morning wood as a gage to tell me if I am going down to low for E2 on Arimidex or Indolplex/DIM. When my wood stops I stop taking Arimidex and DIM until wood comes back then that day I go back on it but cut the dose. Still it is hard to tell I have been fooled thinking I am to low when I went to high. So it is a must to test E2 when you have your Testosterone checked. Going to high or to low on E2 undoes the good TRT does for us. wmmarbury <wmmarbury@...> wrote: Hi Phil: According to what you wrote, a too-low level of Estradiol will also affect the libido. This presents the quandary of not knowing whether or not one's libido is being affected by a too-low Testosterone level or a too-low Estradiol level. Do you have any comment about this that might help to isolate the actual cause of a low libido? Is the only way to know for sure what is causing a low libido to have blood tests done for Testosterone and Estradiol? > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > taking Indolplex > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > > prescription? > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > into > > the twenties. > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > that > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > into > > Estradiol. > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > cabbage > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > > metabolism of Estradiol. > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what > you see. " > > Phil > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 I finally gave up on trying to get a doctor interested in E2 control, and decided to do it on my own. Of course I can't recommmend anyone else do this, but for myself, I think it's fairly safe with regular testing. Only time will tell, though. You can find liquid versions of Arimidex (anastrozole) various places. These are sold as " research chemicals " . I got mine from innovative- research.net, as a 30 ml. bottle, 1 mg per ml. So that's 30 mg altogether, for $30 plus shipping. It's U.S. domestic. It's not genuine authentic Arimidex, of course, but appears to work ok for me. I use an oral syringe to draw up the dose I want, and just wash it down with water. Actually, I've found that I'm very sensitive to it, and only need a very small amount. So I draw out 1/4 ml of the I-R liquid into another bottle, and dilute that down further with vodka and distilled water, just to make it easier to measure out accurately. Then I use the E2 blood test from LEF.org, which is $33 for members and $44 for non-members. I did that once a month for three months to make sure the E2 level was stable, and now do the test maybe once a quarter. You need to have a LabCorp office in your town to make this work. So I assume that means it's U.S. domestic only. I figure on an ongoing basis I can do this for less than $200 per year, most of which is for testing. But you do have to test. Too low E2 is not a good thing. I shoot for E2 in the high 20's to low 30's, which seems to work best for me. You don't necessarily have to test for T though. I don't. [Actually, wmmarbury, the tablets at your pharmacy are probably 1 mg, not 100 mg. 1 mg per day is the standard dose for women, and I think that's what all the tablets are. If that's right, the liquid I use is 1/10th the cost.] > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a > pharmacy and priced Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - > that's about $10 per tablet. This is prohibitively > expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? Quote
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Posted March 27, 2008 > > > Thanks for the information Phil. I was just at a > > pharmacy and priced Arimidex: $310 for 30 tablets - > > that's about $10 per tablet. This is prohibitively > > expensive. (They are probably 100 mg tablets.) Does > > anyone know where it can be gotten cheaper? > Hi, I have been getting my Arimidex and Dostinex through an online company called www.4rx.com which sells quality Indian generics. 56 1mg Arimidex tablets are $238.00 US and 32 .5mg tablets of Dostinex(cabergoline) are $220.00. These have worked well for me. I am still experimenting with my Arimidex/DIM dosage to get my E2 right, was too high then it went too low, easy to judge by nighttime and morning wood in my experience. I have also been getting my DIM from a company called www.youngagain.com which has 200 mg DIM 60 capsules for $11.95 and these have worked well for me. Jim Quote
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2008 Report Posted March 28, 2008 Hi Phil: Thanks for the comprehensive response to my question about the testosterone and Estradiol (E2) balance. My endocrinologist at the Veterans' Administration Hospital (VA) checked for E2 (at my explicit request), but, when the result came back that my level was high at 37 pg/mL, he had no comment on this. I had been on the gel (50 mg of testosterone per tube – Testim) for three weeks when the blood tests were done. My total testosterone tested at 1600 ng/dL and my endo cut my dosage in half – down to half a tube a day (25 mg). But, as stated above, he had no comment on my high E2 level of 37 pg/mL. The VA does not prescribe Arimidex (of other aromatase inhibitors) because they are not FDA approved – according to my endo. Additionally, my endo had apparently not heard of the phytosubstance DIM, which I find very surprising. Since I have often been fatigued and have had to take a nap in the afternoon, I have come to understand that this has to do with a too- high E2 level. Since the high E2 has rendered me generally deficient in energy, one must conclude that I am not able to use the testosterone that I am exogenously administering through TRT since one would have to be active, both generally physically, as well as sexually, in order to use the testosterone in one's body. This means that one's body has unused testosterone coursing through its blood vessels that causes the production of aromatase in order to create a balance between the testosterone and the E2. This results in the conversion of much of the unused testosterone into E2. The overall picture then is both a high testosterone level and a high E2 level. The endocrinologist reacts to the high testosterone level by cutting back on it, but he doesn't do anything about the high E2 level. The result here is that the individual is not functioning at normal energy levels due to the high E2; and this low-energy level is now exacerbated with the reduction in testosterone. The study cited by Phil: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174 demonstrates that lowering E2 levels with aromatase inhibitors, such as Anastrozole (Arimidex), raises testosterone levels due to the fact that the available testosterone is not converted into E2 by aromatase since the amount of aromatase in the body is decreased. As Phil states: if a patient has hypogonadic symptoms, blood tests for E2 should also be done, and if E2 is high, then initial therapy of an aromatase inhibitor or DIM would be indicated before TRT is tried. Administering TRT without regard to E2 levels can result in an increase of already-high E2 levels. The fatigue caused by the high E2 levels results in the body not being able to use the available testosterone due to inactivity, and much of this testosterone is converted by aromatase into more E2, resulting in more fatigue and more confusion. The end result is that the patient becomes very confused and frustrated. This process could be described as being caught up in a " devil's circle. " The conclusion that one must draw is that by not treating high E2, physicians are inadequately dealing with the problem. Administering testosterone, when a deficiency is established, is an obvious and simple measure, but the necessity to attain " hormonal balance " is not so obvious, and also not so simple. Judging from the responses on this blogsite by posters, it is clear that others have had the same experience that I have had, i.e., that most physicians do not treat high E2 levels. The conclusion is that we will have to figure this situation out for ourselves as several of you have already done. My thanks to the posters wayback44, jmdetroit, Steve, Tom Sweet, Dave, and all of the others who have contributed to this topic, and, of course, thanks to Phil Georgian, who has made this possible. Regards, Bill > > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > > taking Indolplex > > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > > > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > > > prescription? > > > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it down > > into > > > the twenties. > > > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it seems > > that > > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous testosterone > > into > > > Estradiol. > > > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > > cabbage > > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > > > metabolism of Estradiol. > > > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of > what > > you see. " > > > Phil > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Mobile. > > Try it now. > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2008 Report Posted March 28, 2008 Hi Phil: Regarding my total testosterone blood level of 1600 ng/dL: You are right! I had only been on the gel for three weeks; I rubbed in the gel, all 50 mg of it, at about 9:00 am; the blood was drawn at 12:30 pm – 3 ½ hours later. Additionally, the blood was drawn from my forearm, right opposite my elbow, which is right below where I had rubbed in much of the gel. This was the first time that I had gone through this process of rubbing in the gel and having blood drawn on the same day, so I didn't know what I was doing. But, after I saw the results, I realized what had happened: I had indeed " spiked " my testosterone levels. I wanted to be conscientious and do it right, but, unfortunately, I messed it up. Now, I have to wait until July before I am able to have more blood tests done. If my total testosterone level is low or in the low end of the normal range in July, then I will have the possibility of having my dosage raised back to the full 50 mg again; until then, I have to get by on 25 mg per day. But, three months is not all that long a time. During that time, I will try to get my E2 levels down by using DIM. My plan is to not apply any gel on the day that my blood is to be drawn. They usually schedule for blood tests at the VA before 1:00 pm, by the way. I plan to rub in the full 25 mg on the morning of " the day before " blood is drawn. Does this sound like a good idea to you? Do you think that there is the possibility that my TT level will be too low if I apply the gel on the day before? Concerning my E2 level of 37 pg/mL: I still have ED problems, and my wood is not consistent from night to night. At this point, I don't know if this is due to a too-low level of testosterone or to a too- high level of E2, or possibly to some other factor. What do you think about " cycling, " by the way? I thought that I could " cycle " by not applying the gel perhaps once a week. For those who don't know what cycling is, it is " not administering testosterone perhaps once every three of four days, or once a week, so that the testes have an opportunity to produce their own (endogenous) testosterone. This is a measure to reduce the possibility that the testes will atrophy. Regards, Bill > > > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > > > taking Indolplex > > > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > > > > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected? > > > > > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > > > > prescription? > > > > > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it > down > > > into > > > > the twenties. > > > > > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it > seems > > > that > > > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous > testosterone > > > into > > > > Estradiol. > > > > > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and > > > cabbage > > > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the > > > > metabolism of Estradiol. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of > > what > > > you see. " > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > > Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2008 Report Posted March 28, 2008 I use the VA too. I'm amazed they even agreed to test your E2. And since your result came back within what they consider the normal range, there's just no way they're going to treat you for it. The VA is completely swamped now, and they just don't have time to mess with individual " theories " of hormone control. It's a very rigid, conservative system, where they do things by the book. Don't get me wrong - they deliver good care to a very large population which has lots of serious medical problems, and they are fully computerized, but there's just a limit to how much time and effort they can spend on things like this. Anyway, I wish you luck finding a doctor to work with you on this. I wasn't able to find one. > > Hi Phil: > > Thanks for the comprehensive response to my question about the > testosterone and Estradiol (E2) balance. My endocrinologist at the > Veterans' Administration Hospital (VA) checked for E2 (at my explicit > request), but, when the result came back that my level was high at 37 > pg/mL, he had no comment on this. Quote
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2008 Report Posted March 29, 2008 Hi wayback44: Concerning my E2 result: it is outside the normal range; the normal range is given as < or = to 29 pg/mL and my level was 37 pg/mL. However, since, according to my endocrinologist, aromatase inhibitors are not FDA approved, the VA cannot prescribe them. Additionally, they evidently are not informed about Phyto-substances such as Indolplex with DIM. I had to conclude that the VA generally does not treat high E2. However, thanks to this website, I have found that I can do that myself, either with DIM or with an aromatase inhibitor. I can then have my E2 level checked at the VA. Regards, Bill > > > > Hi Phil: > > > > Thanks for the comprehensive response to my question about the > > testosterone and Estradiol (E2) balance. My endocrinologist at the > > Veterans' Administration Hospital (VA) checked for E2 (at my > explicit > > request), but, when the result came back that my level was high at > 37 > > pg/mL, he had no comment on this. > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2008 Report Posted March 29, 2008 Hi Phil: Thanks for the information that Roy gets Arimidex through the VA; I'll mention this to my endo the next time I see him. Thank you also for the information that Cialis is available through the VA, and that Cialis can also be used as a type of " primer " in order to keep nocturnal wood functioning. I'll talk to my primary-care physician about this; I should be able to get some Cialis without seeing my endo. Concerning the continued production of testosterone by the testes during the administration of exogenous testosterone (TRT): It is my understanding that the pituitary gland produces luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) in accordance with the amount of testosterone that is circulating in the blood. LH stimulates the testes to produce testosterone, and FSH stimulates the testes to produce sperm. If large and continuous amounts of exogenous testosterone (T) are introduced to the body, the hypothalamus senses the presence of this T and signals the pituitary gland to stop producing LH and FSH, which results in the testes not producing their own (endogenous) T. If this process is continued for any length of time, the testes will shrink (atrophy), and their capacity to produce T and sperm will diminish and possibly fade all together. If, however, exogenous T is administered incrementally and in small amounts, the blood would not be continuously satiated with exogenous T; the hypothalamus would perceive this and would send a signal to the pituitary gland, via gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), to produce LH and FSH, which would stimulate the testes to produce their own T and sperm, thusly avoiding shrinkage (atrophy). As has been pointed out on this blogsite, one way to stimulate the testes to produce their own T and to continue producing sperm, while at the same time administering large amounts of exogenous T, is to inject human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG), which mimics LH and stimulates the testes to produce their own (endogenous) T. In my situation, the VA hospital does not authorize the use of hCG for hypogonadism; it only authorizes the use of hCG for fertility reasons, i.e., when a man is trying to make his wife pregnant. Since I do not have access to hCG, in order to avoid testicular atrophy, I have to be more cautious with the amounts and frequency that I am administering exogenous T to my body; hence my regimen of applying the gel twice daily at about 12 mg per time. It should be pointed out that I am still in the process of experimenting with various ways of administering T and controlling E2: I have only been on TRT for about 16 months now. I started with four months of patches, but they caused too much irritation. I was on injections for nine months, but experienced too many peaks and valleys because of the conversion of T into E2. I have now been on the gel for about three months: the first six weeks at 50 mg per day, and the last six weeks at 25 mg per day. Although I think I could use a bit more T right now, my energy level has not been more stable in many years, and my nocturnal wood and ED are improving. I am taking DIM twice daily with meals in an attempt to bring my E2 levels down. Concerning asking my endo at the VA for more blood tests right away: I don't want to be too demanding. My condition right now is stable and improving so I think that it would be best for me to wait the three months until July and my next endo appointment. From what I can gather, the endos at the VA are now having to spend a lot of time with diabetic patients: this is because there are so many overweight and obese people in the society now. A lab technician weighed me prior to my last visit with my endo and entered my weight as 270 pounds (I'm 6' 2 " ); I saw it on the computer screen and told her that I only weigh 170 lbs. She told me that she automatically entered 270 lbs because everyone she had seen that day weighed well over 200 pounds. Thanks for all of the information and advice. Regards, Bill > > > > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than > > > > taking Indolplex > > > > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor? > > > > > > > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be > injected? > > > > > > > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a > > > > > prescription? > > > > > > > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it > > down > > > > into > > > > > the twenties. > > > > > > > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it > > seems > > > > that > > > > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous > > testosterone > > > > into > > > > > Estradiol. > > > > > > > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli > and > > > > cabbage > > > > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate > the > > > > > metabolism of Estradiol. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half > of > > > what > > > > you see. " > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > > > Mobile. > > > > Try it now. > > > > > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2008 Report Posted March 31, 2008 On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:32:18 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Phil: > >According to what you wrote, a too-low level of Estradiol will also >affect the libido. This presents the quandary of not knowing whether >or not one's libido is being affected by a too-low Testosterone level >or a too-low Estradiol level. Do you have any comment about this that >might help to isolate the actual cause of a low libido? Is the only >way to know for sure what is causing a low libido to have blood tests >done for Testosterone and Estradiol? There are differences. Most of us find with E2 levels too high, we have sensitive nipples. we still have some libido - interest in sex. But higher E2 softens erections also. High E2 looks like some sexual interest coupled with some erection issues. But sex still holds interest and feels good. Also high E2 leads to a more emotional state. You'll tear up at movies, commercials, etc. Some also get worried and fearful. E2 too LOW removes all interest in sex. Erections also fail miserably. So the result is no interest at all coupled with no wood. Someone described E2 too law as making a blow job feel like shaking hands. The difference between these two can be subtle as E2 just starts to get low. You'll have some interest, and weaker erections. But you won't have the sensitive nipples, and emotionalism. But if you're not paying close attention you might misinterpret as too low and drive it really low. The good thing is recovery is usually only 5 to 7 days. Quote
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