Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 RE: AndroGel application I am quite confused now. I understand the difference between the Testosterone cream (as Dr. Shippen discussed in his book) and the current AndroGel. I recently had my regular doc put me on the AndroGel (5 grams), about 3 weeks ago after declaring that I had hypogonadism after reviewing very basic blood work which showed a total T of 189. Last week I got him to refer me to an endo when I started asking questions about " secondary " versus " primary " and what were the free T levels and ratios, what about estradiol / E2, estrogen-to-test ratio, etc., etc. He got a glazed over look in his eyes and mumbled that he didn't know anything about those values and that he'd " better send be to an endocrinologist " .... Anyway, the literature that I had concerning the AndoGel (supplied by above mentioned " regular doctor " ) described applying it to the shoulders, upper arms, and upper abdomen. Made no mention of upper legs or back (not that I could readily apply it there anyway) or other areas. Absolutely NO mention made as to there being a concern about " hairy areas " or " thick skin areas " (one post shown indicated that the back skin was known to be " too thick " and another mentioned that the back was a recommended area)... or especially areas of high fat. The last one kind of threw me because I was of the understanding that testosterone pellets are specifically inserted under the skin of the buttocks specifically because of the fatty areas to slowly reduce the absorption of the T into the bloodstream. Has this information been just things that get passed around from user to user or are they based upon some specified study? I find it interesting that one user had minimal increases with arms/shoulders applications but then did much better with applying to upper thighs (hairy? shaved?). Has anyone checked with the company (AndroGel manufacturer) in regard to these variables? Also, for the one posting where the individual indicated that he had " been generally lousy feeling, depressed, and downright WEEPY " (and yet had posted some fairly decent figures concerning total T and free T).... doesn't that sound pretty classic for being a case of excessive estrogen levels? I would imagine that low thyroid levels would also come into play there quite a bit also, but have to imagine a strong likelihood of high estrogen levels. Larry S. (Just a new guy - at age 53 - trying to make sense of all of this) >Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:25:47 -0000 > From: " justhefiveofus " <justhefiveofus@...> >Subject: Androgel application > >I think that I have seen, within a variety of these threads, >information regarding " how to " apply the gel, but I wanted to just >put the question out. How/Where are people applying the gel? Are >you rubbing in completely or letting it dry? Do you apply to >locations where there is hair? Instructions say upper arm or >abdomen, anyone trying other places and getting better absorbtion? >Where have you tried to apply and found that it was ineffective or >absorbtion took too long? > >I am showing total around 500 with 10g Androgel, up from around 300 >with 7.5, lower dosage did almost nothing. I am thinking that there >might be ways to get better absorbtion equalling better results. > >Thanks >BS > > >************************************************************************** > > > >> The levels are dam good the Free T. are important more so then the Total T. As for feeling down depressed and weepy it is to soon to tell you have only been on TRT for a short time and from what you are saying you are doing a lot better then most in that short time. Are you getting out and going for a walk or getting some exercise Some times these feeling are habit from feeling like crap for so long and it is like a rut you are in. I have found the I have to force myself to start doing things to get out of this. I would not see a Dr. for this some >>times they make it worse with Drugs for depression. I went to a group meeting at night they are all over the world and helped me a >>lot here is a link to the group. They take donations at the meetings. >> >> >>http://www.recovery-inc.com/ >>You are lucky you can get your levels that high on just 5 grams of AndroGel it takes me 10 grams of Testim to get that high. >> >> >>Phil >> >> >> >>Dave <daultman@s...> wrote: I posted a while back that my doctor sent me a postcard stating I had " adequate " testosterone now that I was on 5mg Androgel daily, but that I couldn't read the lab numbers. I finally got those labs in legible form: >> >>4/18/04 (pre-androgel) >> >>Total T = 210 range 241 - 827 ng/dl >>Free T = 6.6 range 9.5 - 43 pg/ml >> >>6/18/04 (5mg androgel) >> >>Total T = 1022 range 241 - 827 ng/dl >>Free T = 24.5 range 9.5 - 43 pg/ml >>Percent Free = 0.2 >> >>I don't really understand what percent free means, other than how it's arrived at mathematically. >> >>With that high Total T, I'm actually surprised the doctor didn't tell me to cut back on the androgel, though that Free T, while mid-range, seems low to me by comparison. >> >>Symptoms/How-I-Feel: Horny as heck a good portion of the day, and I get nocturnal wood again, even woke up humping the pillow this morning (embarrased grin), though while I don't have ED per se, it's a bit harder to maintain an erection without very concentrated activity. Overall, though I've been generally lousy feeling, depressed, and downright WEEPY. I can start crying at the slightest negative thought, this has to be hormone related, I've never been a weepy person. My thyroid hormones are low, so they may be part of the problems. Recent saliva tests were posted showing high E2 and Progesterone. I just had blood drawn to check those, and will post followup when they come in (a week maybe). Meanwhile, any comments on those most recent labs received? Is that Free T an acceptable number for a 42 year old man? What else needs to be tested, besides E2 to be able to say my hypogonadism is being managed properly and either start feeling tip-top, or move on to look for other causes? >> >> >> >> >> >Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:03:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Joe Balck <raven_man2003@...> >Subject: RE: New T provider and new application site > >I apply Androgel to my stomach, back, upper arms, chest, thighs, and penis. I have been doing this for some time without any increase in breast size. I have pretty large pecs from lifting and wonder if this has anything to do with it. > >How many guys here developed breasts while being on replacement treatment? Any other side effects? > >Dave <daultman@...> wrote: > >I was certain I'd read here that the back was too thick-skinned for good absorption - though I've often made the mistake of assuming what's said about non-Androgel topical solutions also applies to Androgel. My worst, perhaps, was the suggestion that AG be applied to the penis and scrotum. It didn't hurt me there, but I got a scolding here about that advice from Shippen DID NOT apply to Androgel. The plus side to that seemed to be that with more of a certain receptor in those areas than others that the T would not convert to E2, but only to DHT. So, the choice was big tits or no hair...frankly I'd rather be bald. > >I've gotten more liberal (sloppy?) about rubbing Androgel into hairy areas that aren't as " furry " as the rest. My backs hard to reach, and actually hairier than my upper arms - does that qualify as too much information? > >I've posted labs in another thread, but I was shocked to find that 3 months of the minimum dose of Androgel shot my Total T from 210 to 1022 and Free T from 6.6 to 24.5. From my overall condition currently, I was sure my T was still low. > >> RE: Androgel application > >Or eon also advocated rubbing until dry. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Larry, Sorry for the confusion. First, you must understand that drug companies have many things to consider when recommending a site for a topically applied medication. First and foremost in their mind is money, and they have to pay HUGE sums to get their medication tested on humans. The more sites they test, the more money they have to spend and the LONGER it takes them to get the drug to market, which delay also costs them huge amounts of money. In the case of Androgel, the sites the company recommends to apply it are only the sites they paid to have it tested on. Legally they can't recommed that you put it anywhere else because it wasn't officially " approved " for those sites. That doesn't mean applying it to another part of the body is harmful, it just means they didn't pay to have the drug tested there. Independant tests have shown other areas of the body to absorb as well as or better than the sites recommended by the drug company. Personal experiences from patients also confirm that other sites just as effective. Regards, K4 > >I think that I have seen, within a variety of these threads, > >information regarding " how to " apply the gel, but I wanted to just > >put the question out. How/Where are people applying the gel? Are > >you rubbing in completely or letting it dry? Do you apply to > >locations where there is hair? Instructions say upper arm or > >abdomen, anyone trying other places and getting better absorbtion? > >Where have you tried to apply and found that it was ineffective or > >absorbtion took too long? > > > >I am showing total around 500 with 10g Androgel, up from around 300 > >with 7.5, lower dosage did almost nothing. I am thinking that there > >might be ways to get better absorbtion equalling better results. > > > >Thanks > >BS > > > > > >Message: 13 > > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:21:36 -0700 > > From: " Dave " <daultman@s...> > >Subject: RE: Androgel application > > > >Or eon also advocated rubbing until dry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 You refer to my post several times, so I'm going to snip yours down and just reply to the stuff I can within the body of your post: > Re: AndroGel Placement > > RE: AndroGel application > > I am quite confused now. Me too...that's why we're here. <snip> > > Anyway, the literature that I had concerning the AndoGel > (supplied by above mentioned " regular doctor " ) described > applying it to the shoulders, upper arms, and upper abdomen. That's what the literature says. What's been posted here (though no link yet) is that an independent study showed certain other areas to be more effective. The manufacturer can only put on the box what was approved in clinical trials: abdomen, arms, shoulders. > Made no mention of upper legs or back (not that I could > readily apply it there anyway) or other areas. " Or eon " a recently deceased major contributor to the group had anecdotal evidence, based on his own personal testing on himself of what gave him the highest T levels. He shaved his inner thigh and rubbed androgel into the shaved area with the bottom of a baby food jar...this resulted in apparent large increases in his T. > Absolutely NO mention made as to there being a concern about > " hairy areas " or " thick skin areas " (one post shown More anecdotal I guess...but it makes sense..hair is dead protein, if you rub a gel into the dead protein, it doesn't get to the sking to be absorbed. If you're sparsely hairy probably not an issue. If you think about the hair distribution pattern on most men and where they don't have hair, and then compare to the manufacturers suggested application areas, they're the same. Only the hairiest of us tend to have hair on the upper arms, shoulders and abdomen. Most men don't, right? Coincidence, or design by Androgel? > indicated that the back skin was known to be " too thick " and > another mentioned that the back was a recommended area)... or You're referring to my post where I QUESTIONED someone who said the back was the best absorbed area. <snip> > Has this information been just things that get passed around > from user to user or are they based upon some specified > study? A little bit of both it seems. You're already learning for yourself that doctors just don't understand this stuff, the ones here who have been doing this for a long time have a better understanding and while there's some misinformation, there's much more good information. <snip> > Also, for the one posting where the individual indicated that > he had " been generally lousy feeling, depressed, and > downright WEEPY " (and yet had posted some fairly decent > figures concerning total T and free T).... doesn't that > sound pretty classic for being a case of excessive estrogen > levels? I would imagine that low thyroid levels would also > come into play there quite a bit also, but have to imagine a > strong likelihood of high estrogen levels. That was me who posted the bit about depression and weepiness. Other posts describe recent saliva-based home hormone testing that indiated E2 levels 50% higher than maximum for a man. I'm confirming with blood tests, but haven't gotten results yet to take to the doc and insist on treating E2, because, like you, I suspect E2 is the cause of the weepiness. Thyroid or E2 for the depression - I'm leaning towards thyroid right now, but don't have the lab results back on that yet either. Like your PCP, mine seems to know only the basics about hormones...I have to test on my own, get results, then convince him from there to go further. As long as I can nudge him in the right direction it's not the best arrangement, but tolerable. Better than doctor hopping looking for one who knows what he's doing. Good luck with your TRT...as you can see here, it's quite a juggling act to get everything right. Hopefully you're not like me and don't have other defective or missing glands to complicate things even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Thanks for the info. Has the AndroGel worked out okay for you? At what dose? I am on the 5 gram level right now... I had a " total T level " of 189 prior to starting the AndroGel about 4 weeks ago. Free T level? Unknown... my " regular doc " wouldn't check it. Estrogen / E2 level? Unknown... he wouldn't check it. DHT levels? Unknown... he wouldn't check it. Testosterone / Estrogen ratio? Unknown... he wouldn't check it. At one point stated that there was no use getting those tests run as he wouldn't know what those values meant anyway! As to current level of even total T, I don't know. Once regular doc decided he was sending me to an Endo, he canceled my upcoming blood test to see how the initial dosage of AndroGel was doing after I would have been taking it for four weeks (that would have been this week). Now am just hoping that my Endo is a lot more knowledgeable and cooperative than the regular doc was. I know that the 5 grm AndroGel has been helping some: there were a couple of erections, like probably 4, during this time period versus NONE the six weeks before; a little better libido, a little less emotionalism, depression, and moodiness; a little less fatigue (though not as much as I would have hoped). Still concerned that there are also some thyroid issues or possible adrenal fatigue from a couple years of clinical anxiety. Larry S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 I think that where ever you apply the Gel you will grow more hair. I started with the shoulders & the chest and it resulted in hair growth on both. As soon as I noticed the hair growth I moved to the legs as I already had hair on them. I was used to & preferred a hairless upper body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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