Re: Androgel and testicular shrinkage

July 24, 2002

,

I've injected weekly 200 mg....I never had T levels determined then.

I've been on AndroGel, 10 G/dy but have started back on depo

injections...100 mg week.

Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T levels measured twice

Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-Testosterone

on...

June 4th '01

.. . .Testosterone

.. . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

.. . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

July 9th '01

.. . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

.. . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

With my free T waaaaaaaaaay out of range....alot of that went to

estrogen/estradiol. August 2nd my estrogen was 198 (40 - 115) and

estradiol 87 (<54). I started Arimidex, 1 mg/dy and that brought my Es

down. I continue on Arimidex.

Good luck...

OR eon

July 24, 2002

Thank you OR eon,

This sounds like a good starting point. Hopefully my urologyst will

be accomadating. When he first put me on depo it was a large dose

once a month. After seeing another endo, he suggested having my

urologyst give me injections once every 2 weeks. When I told him he

just rolled his eyes at me and said that its the same effect, 200 mgs

every 2 weeks or 400 mgs once a month. Then he put me on Androgel

after that, I must have made him mad? I think I may be asking to give

myself the weekly injections of depo. Im having some blood work done

to see what's going on with the estrogen, Im not sure if theres a

problem, yet?

Now I need to find out about HCG/HMG therapy for myself, so the mrs

can get pregnant. I found those available online, not nearly as

expensive as I thought. However the endo said something about a pump?

Im still trying to find info on that? Ill post as I learn more,

unless my many replys are excessive?

Thanks,

ALex

> ,

>

> I've injected weekly 200 mg....I never had T levels determined then.

>

> I've been on AndroGel, 10 G/dy but have started back on depo

> injections...100 mg week.

>

> Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T levels measured twice

>

> Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-

Testosterone

> on...

>

> June 4th '01

>

> . . .Testosterone

>

> . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

>

> July 9th '01

>

> . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

>

> With my free T waaaaaaaaaay out of range....alot of that went to

> estrogen/estradiol. August 2nd my estrogen was 198 (40 - 115) and

> estradiol 87 (<54). I started Arimidex, 1 mg/dy and that brought

my Es

> down. I continue on Arimidex.

>

> Good luck...

>

> OR eon

July 24, 2002

" After seeing another endo, he suggested having my urologyst give me

injections once every 2 weeks. When I told him he just rolled his eyes

at me and said that its the same effect, 200 mgs every 2 weeks or 400

mgs once a month. "

He doesn't know much about T injections! A large dose at once produces

a higher (supraphysiologic) blood level spike of T, which is usually

converted to a certain extent to estrogen in one form or another. You

need to find a different doctor. The best results most men have on

shots seems to be weekly injections of about 100mg.

July 24, 2002

> Just to show you how dangerous this is, a friend of mine had a T

> level of 344 and he developed severe osteoporosis in his spine

before

> he finally got treated with Androgel.

I know about this first hand. :-(

Bear in mind that the 320 to 800 is a LAB REFERENCE RANGE, not an

absolute. Different labs use different numbers where either end of

the range may be higher or lower. Reference range means this is

what's considered " typical " for the general population; a value

approaching either end is a possible sign of problems.

Some docs take that range as a true absolute; if a patient tests at

319 he needs trt but if he's at 320 we'll just send him on his way.

Nevermind it's a moving target anyway; besides the different labs

using different range values, the actual T level varies thoughout the

day.

A patient who has such a doc may do well to get a second opinion.

July 25, 2002

> " After seeing another endo, he suggested having my urologyst give me

> injections once every 2 weeks. When I told him he just rolled his eyes

> at me and said that its the same effect, 200 mgs every 2 weeks or 400

> mgs once a month. "

>

> He doesn't know much about T injections! A large dose at once produces

> a higher (supraphysiologic) blood level spike of T, which is usually

> converted to a certain extent to estrogen in one form or another. You

> need to find a different doctor. The best results most men have on

> shots seems to be weekly injections of about 100mg.

There's a great website designed for pharmacists that has a tutorial on

testosterone replacement:

http://www.powerpak.com/CE/Androgen/lesson.cfm

In it is says:

Testosterone enanthate and cypionate comparison—Intramuscular injections

of testosterone enanthate (194 mg) and cypionate (cyclopentylpropionate 200=

mg) in hypogonadal men demonstrate comparable pharmacokinetics over a

10 day interval. Thus, these two preparations are interchangeable for

androgen replacement therapy. However, both preparations result in

supraphysiologic concentrations of testosterone for 1 to 4 days after injec=

tion.

The pharmacokinetics of testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate and

testosterone enanthate are also similar. A satisfactory regimen is to

administer 200 mg of one of these esters once every two weeks

intramuscularly, but a more physiologic replacement therapy would be 100

mg of one of these testosterone esters IM weekly.

July 25, 2002

Previously before they changed their website the Urologychannel had a

great chart on testosterone levels. It was age specific. I think that

it is extremely important that doctors understand what should be the

correct testosterone level.

Re: Androgel and Testicular Shrinkage

> Just to show you how dangerous this is, a friend of mine had a T

> level of 344 and he developed severe osteoporosis in his spine

before

> he finally got treated with Androgel.

I know about this first hand. :-(

Bear in mind that the 320 to 800 is a LAB REFERENCE RANGE, not an

absolute. Different labs use different numbers where either end of

the range may be higher or lower. Reference range means this is

what's considered " typical " for the general population; a value

approaching either end is a possible sign of problems.

Some docs take that range as a true absolute; if a patient tests at

319 he needs trt but if he's at 320 we'll just send him on his way.

Nevermind it's a moving target anyway; besides the different labs

using different range values, the actual T level varies thoughout the

day.

A patient who has such a doc may do well to get a second opinion.

July 25, 2002

This is a good chart on optimal serum testosterone, free testosterone and

sex hormone binding globulin levels in men by age groups...

http://www.alt-support-impotence.org/hormone_charts.htm

I also put it in bookmarks section of

.

Last year.

OR eon

July 25, 2002

,

Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for HIV+

individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk cypionate...never had T levels

measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T levels

measured twice,

Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-Testosterone

on...

June 4th '01

.. . .Testosterone

.. . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

.. . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

July 9th '01

.. . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

.. . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 - 115) and estradiol

87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel for nine months

with no benefit.

November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked PCP to go back on

AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T levels tests ~approx

monthly intervals.

Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone back onto weekly

injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added explicative....for

me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at several points

during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should be even higher.

Just my experiences....

OR eon

July 26, 2002

> ,

>

> Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for HIV+

> individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk cypionate...never had T levels

> measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T levels

> measured twice,

>

> Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-Testosterone

> on...

>

> June 4th '01

>

> . . .Testosterone

>

> . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

>

> July 9th '01

>

> . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

>

> My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

> estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 - 115) and estradiol

> 87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel for nine months

> with no benefit.

>

> November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked PCP to go back

on

> AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T levels tests ~approx

> monthly intervals.

>

> Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone back onto weekly

> injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added explicative....for

> me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

>

> Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at several points

> during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should be even higher.

>

> Just my experiences....

>

> OR eon

H OR eon,

I'm 51. I changed over from HCG to depo T injections eight weeks ago, also

100mg once a week. Get my next blood measurement next week. But I am

feeling better, more energy and virility, less tiredness.

Before switching, my blood test showed:

T total = 610 (250-1000)

T free = 151 (50-210)

Estradiol = 56 (10-50)

I was on 0.5mg Arimidex 2x/week; we upped it to 1mg 2x/week to get E down.

Be interesting to see how your measurements at several points during the

week turn out. Let us know.

July 26, 2002

> ,

>

> Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for HIV+

> individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk cypionate...never had T levels

> measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T levels

> measured twice,

>

> Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-Testosterone

> on...

>

> June 4th '01

>

> . . .Testosterone

>

> . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

>

> July 9th '01

>

> . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

>

> My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

> estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 - 115) and estradiol

> 87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel for nine months

> with no benefit.

>

> November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked PCP to go back

on

> AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T levels tests ~approx

> monthly intervals.

>

> Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone back onto weekly

> injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added explicative....for

> me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

>

> Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at several points

> during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should be even higher.

>

> Just my experiences....

>

> OR eon

July 30, 2002

Hi, I can relate, my first endo complained to me about my weight and

basically summed the low T and the infertility to being over weight.

Meanwhile my urologist was treating me for low T with no reguards

for fertility (Ill mention him again in a minute). I am still

currently on andro gel with a T level of 1000 but my LH is 2.5 and my

FSH is 1.5. The new endo I am seeing now believes me to have

secondary hypogonadism. Finally a diagnosis. However he seems to

think that HCG treatments for infertility are to advanced for his

practice. He's looking for a endo specializing in male fertility?

Would'nt you think he could prescribe HCG? Sounds like if he wrote me

a script I can pick it up at Walgreen's or Costco?

It has taken me over a month just to get to the diagosis. It's seems

hard to be patient with these matters, believe me I wasnt and I went

mad. I did go ahead and found a new endo who finally recognized the

symptoms of hypo, and will hopefully be treating the fertility aspect

of it. I am really hoping to go onto HCG for a long term treatment to

this disorder, fertility and no testicular atrophy (shrinkage). I'm

just waiting for one more blood test.

Find a new doctor chop, chop! My urologist seems to think that andro

will not cause testicular shrinkage and he also thinks that andro

will inprove the quality of my semen. I argued with him for several

minutes hoping that he would agree with me, but some doctors can be

so arrogant! He has now lost a patient and all of the respect I had

for him. He said I shouldnt mess with my " axis " , that I have

testicular failure, and no treatment will help me besides IVF and T

replacement therapy. Dont you think my axis is already messed up? He

told me no, that HCG would permenantly destroy my Axis.

Im still very upset and irratated!

> > ,

> >

> > Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for HIV+

> > individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk cypionate...never had

T levels

> > measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T

levels

> > measured twice,

> >

> > Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-

Testosterone

> > on...

> >

> > June 4th '01

> >

> > . . .Testosterone

> >

> > . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

> >

> > July 9th '01

> >

> > . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

> >

> > My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

> > estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 - 115) and

estradiol

> > 87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel for

nine months

> > with no benefit.

> >

> > November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked PCP to

go back

> on

> > AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T levels

tests ~approx

> > monthly intervals.

> >

> > Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone back

onto weekly

> > injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added

explicative....for

> > me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

> >

> > Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at

several points

> > during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should be even

higher.

> >

> > Just my experiences....

> >

> > OR eon

July 30, 2002

,

Your experience occurs all too frequently. Please read the AACE

clinical guidelines posted on the web (the link is a few messages

back in one of my responses). Send a copy to all of your physicians.

If they can overcome their arrogance, they might actually learn

something.

Lex, as I have told several other men recently, you need to have some

additional tests done. Insist on these:

PSA - this should be taken BEFORE they put you on T. The reason is

that T can accelerate the growth of prostate cancer. PSA is the

screening test for this cancer. All men should have one age 40 or

above anyway.

Bone Density - this screens for Osteoporosis, which is very common in

men with low T. My bones were 8% below normal density, and I now take

a medication to build them back up to normal strength.

Brain MRI - essential if you are diagnosed with Secondary Hypo. You

may have a brain tumor causing your hypo. Also have them check your

IGF-1 levels (a growth hormone), which can point to a brain tumor as

well.

You need to get these additional tests done to be sure there aren't

secondary health problems related to your low T. I'm glad your one MD

at least admits incompetence when it comes to this disease. Hope you

find someone who will care for you properly.

Regards,

K4

> > > ,

> > >

> > > Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for HIV+

> > > individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk cypionate...never

had

> T levels

> > > measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had T

> levels

> > > measured twice,

> > >

> > > Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-

> Testosterone

> > > on...

> > >

> > > June 4th '01

> > >

> > > . . .Testosterone

> > >

> > > . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> > > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

> > >

> > > July 9th '01

> > >

> > > . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> > > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

> > >

> > > My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

> > > estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 - 115)

and

> estradiol

> > > 87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel for

> nine months

> > > with no benefit.

> > >

> > > November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked PCP

to

> go back

> > on

> > > AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T levels

> tests ~approx

> > > monthly intervals.

> > >

> > > Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone back

> onto weekly

> > > injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added

> explicative....for

> > > me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

> > >

> > > Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at

> several points

> > > during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should be

even

> higher.

> > >

> > > Just my experiences....

> > >

> > > OR eon

July 30, 2002

K4,

Thank you for the advice, you are really helpful in my research to

treatments! As of now several tests have already been performed....

Had an MRI about 1 1/2 months ago. Everything is normal as far as the

MRI can tell. However my new endo feels that there is something

definatly wrong there and not with my testicals. Still waiting for

blood work to come back. There was one thing he wanted to check

before we go further. Something about my estrogen levels?

Also I had a complete blood work up around the same time as the MRI.

My PSA was normal, LH/FSH low normal and T was 237! As for IGF-1

levels I am not sure about that? I dont really know what that is? Ill

look around in here to try to find more information. Being only 30

yo, I seem to be in a curious situation with all of this.

So far I am on 1 5mg pack of Andro daily, so far I seem to be

responding with a T level of 1000. Although i think thats really

high, but I feel really great! Sex hasnt been this good since I was

in my early twenties!

I havent had a bone density test yet, when I talk to the endo next

week Ill ask him about that as well. Does the endo perform all of

these tests or should I find a new urologist to do them? Do

urologists prescribe HCG/HMG as well as T therapy? It's just that

even though the new endo agrees there is a problem again, he seems to

think that HCG is to advanced for his practice? He did mention a

pump? Are those really being used? I still have so much to learn

about all of this.

> > > > ,

> > > >

> > > > Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for

HIV+

> > > > individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk cypionate...never

> had

> > T levels

> > > > measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and had

T

> > levels

> > > > measured twice,

> > > >

> > > > Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-

> > Testosterone

> > > > on...

> > > >

> > > > June 4th '01

> > > >

> > > > . . .Testosterone

> > > >

> > > > . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> > > > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

> > > >

> > > > July 9th '01

> > > >

> > > > . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> > > > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

> > > >

> > > > My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

> > > > estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 - 115)

> and

> > estradiol

> > > > 87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel for

> > nine months

> > > > with no benefit.

> > > >

> > > > November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked

PCP

> to

> > go back

> > > on

> > > > AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T levels

> > tests ~approx

> > > > monthly intervals.

> > > >

> > > > Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone back

> > onto weekly

> > > > injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added

> > explicative....for

> > > > me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

> > > >

> > > > Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at

> > several points

> > > > during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should be

> even

> > higher.

> > > >

> > > > Just my experiences....

> > > >

> > > > OR eon

July 30, 2002

I can tell you that androgel made my sperm count go to ZERO(none). After

stopping for 3 months, my count shot to above normal. I had a testicular

biopsy because they thought something was wrong there, nope all the

cells were there, just dormant because the androgel made my LH/FSH

bottom out!....I am living proof that T replacement can cause this, my

wife is now pregnant, I'm just trying to find a doctor to treat this

correctly...that's the hard part!. Good Luck!

scott

July 30, 2002

Lex,

IGF-1 stands for " Insulin-like Growth Factor " . This is used by cells

all over your body to stimulate growth, and in young people it's what

makes bones and muscles grow so fast. As an adult, too much of it can

cause an enlarged heart and risk for colon, breast, and prostate

cancer. If it's REALLY high, it can cause Acromegaly, where the face

and hands thicken, voice becomes course, skin becomes rough, etc.

(like Andre the Giant). If IGF-1 is high, you may have a pituitary

microtumor that does not show up on a regular MRI. So its a good

second check to see if they can pinpoint a pituitary problem.

As far as secondary hypogonadism goes, I'm afraid the majority of the

cases are " idiopathic " . This means they simply don't know the cause.

This is frustrating, because we all what to know the answer to

that " WHY " question, but in the case of our disease its common...

Regards,

K4

> > > > > ,

> > > > >

> > > > > Two years ago I was in a 12 wk weight training program for

> HIV+

> > > > > individuals.....I was injecting 200 mg/wk

cypionate...never

> > had

> > > T levels

> > > > > measured then. Last year I was injecting 100 mg/wk and

had

> T

> > > levels

> > > > > measured twice,

> > > > >

> > > > > Blood collected 8th day after last injection of 100 mg Depo-

> > > Testosterone

> > > > > on...

> > > > >

> > > > > June 4th '01

> > > > >

> > > > > . . .Testosterone

> > > > >

> > > > > . . . . . .Total . . . . . . . . 989 (241 - 827)

> > > > > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . .42.0 (6.6 - 18.1)

> > > > >

> > > > > July 9th '01

> > > > >

> > > > > . . . . ..Total . . . . . . . . . 774

> > > > > . . . . . Free. . . . . . . . . 38.8

> > > > >

> > > > > My understanding is that excessive free T is aromatized to

> > > > > estrogen/estradiol....by Aug 2nd estrogen was 198 (40 -

115)

> > and

> > > estradiol

> > > > > 87 (<54). Went on Arimidex then....I tried chry/dim gel

for

> > > nine months

> > > > > with no benefit.

> > > > >

> > > > > November '01, because of above high free T values, I asked

> PCP

> > to

> > > go back

> > > > on

> > > > > AndroGel @ 10 G/dy...consistently got 700+ levels on T

levels

> > > tests ~approx

> > > > > monthly intervals.

> > > > >

> > > > > Since there is no longer a shortage in Depo....I've gone

back

> > > onto weekly

> > > > > injections of 100 mg. To paraphrase Brad with my added

> > > explicative....for

> > > > > me AG was a pain in the ass ;-).

> > > > >

> > > > > Just for fun, I think that I will have T levels measured at

> > > several points

> > > > > during my weekly cycle...given high values above...should

be

> > even

> > > higher.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just my experiences....

> > > > >

> > > > > OR eon

September 13, 2002

I started out with Testoderm patches 5mg/day. After about 8 months

there was no shrinkage in my balls and no changes in my penis. I

started having difficulty getting the patches so my doctor switched me

to Androgel. I followed the directions strictly but after 5 months my

balls are now the size of a small peanut (unshelled). The doctor

can't find them half the time. Also, my scrotum has drawn up so much

you can't tell I have one except after a hot shower. I no longer

produce semen when I ejaculate. Fortunately, my penis has gotten

about an inch thicker.

To tell the truth, now that I've been like this a few months, I'm

beginning to like it. I no longer have all of those problems guys

usually have with their balls.

I agree this degree of shrinkage doesn't happen to everyone but there

obviously are exceptions. And most doctors don't have a clue.

September 13, 2002

Don't know if your worried about fertility or keeping your testicles,

but I think if you keep taking the androgel, you will loose both.

A better alternative is HCG if you still have some testicular funtion.

Look back through some of the older posts about this method of treatment.

jonr4_5 wrote:

> I started out with Testoderm patches 5mg/day. After about 8 months

> there was no shrinkage in my balls and no changes in my penis. I

> started having difficulty getting the patches so my doctor switched me

> to Androgel. I followed the directions strictly but after 5 months my

> balls are now the size of a small peanut (unshelled). The doctor

> can't find them half the time. Also, my scrotum has drawn up so much

> you can't tell I have one except after a hot shower. I no longer

> produce semen when I ejaculate. Fortunately, my penis has gotten

> about an inch thicker.

>

> To tell the truth, now that I've been like this a few months, I'm

> beginning to like it. I no longer have all of those problems guys

> usually have with their balls.

>

> I agree this degree of shrinkage doesn't happen to everyone but there

> obviously are exceptions. And most doctors don't have a clue.

>

September 13, 2002

I followed the directions strictly but after 5 months my

>balls are now the size of a small peanut (unshelled). The doctor

>can't find them half the time. Also, my scrotum has drawn up so much

>you can't tell I have one except after a hot shower. I no longer

>produce semen when I ejaculate. Fortunately, my penis has gotten

>about an inch thicker.

My nuts seem to have the 'ability' to change size, which I attribute to

changes in circulation...very much like an erection.

At times they are full, round, firm and quite pronounced, and are about the

size of . Other times, they are definitely NOT spherical, and thin with

a mushy consistency.

I believe that the occassional decrease in size is due to the suppression of

my own T production...but am at a loss to explain how/why

they spontaneously rebound even though I am still applying T cream liberally

to my chest and genitals.(They also swell in response, perhaps by

50-75%,during sexual stimulation).

My penis, has most definitely benefitted from higher T levels, as he is

longer,thicker,harder....even when soft!

At the end of a cycle, I am use HCG, which has it's own set of dramatic

effects...which...unfortunately are not permanent. If they were...I would

have world-class Olympic nuts by now. As everyone's motor runs differently,

HCG may not work for everyone...but I am lucky, as I was a quick

repsonder..not only to Testosterone replacement...but to the HCG as well.

In closing...I am willilng NOT to have " Balls of Death " , in order to have

the effects of Testosterone. The quality of my life has increased

tremendously. Small nuts aint an issue with me. It's a choice I'm willing to

make.

Good luck!

Mike

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September 14, 2002

I began testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), Feb '99. My primary

hypogonadism (PH) is due to my HIV infection. It's well established that

>50% of HIV+ men (gay, bi, straight) have PH. I've done injections (100 or

200 mg/wk), compounded T gel and I'm back on AndroGel (10 G/dy),

essentially second time.

My first time on AG, Jan - Mar '01....I was applying all 10 G at once...lab

work results

Began 10 G AndroGel (AG)/Dy Jan 2 '01

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . Feb 9th . .. .Mar 16th.. Mar 26th

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38 dys . . . 73 dys. . . . 83 dys

Serum testosterone. . . . . . . .. . . 763. . . . . . .493. . . . . 574

(241-827)

Brad, a member here suggested late last year that given short half-life of

testosterone, men using 10 G/dy AG might consider splitting their dose to

AM/PM application of 5 G. I did that and lab results

My current lab work..began 10 G/dy AndroGel Nov '01

.. . . . . . . . . . . . ..12-5-01. . 3-11-02. . . 4-29-02

.. . . . . .. . . . . . . 29 dys. . 96 dys. . . .145 dys

Tests Serum. . . . . .. . .750. . . ...704. . . . 791. .. . . (241- 827)

.. .%Free & Weak. .. . . .47.7. . . .. 37.6. . . . .39.6. . . ..(18.3 -

62.3)

F & W bound. . . . . ..357.7. . .. 264.7. . .. .312.4.. .. .(66.6 -

276.3)

Applying AG 2x dy seemed to uniformly give me T levels of 700+

I would agree with Brad, that AG is a pain in the ass....so maybe six weeks

ago I decided to go back to injecting 100 mg/wk Depo. Shortly afterwards my

b/f visited and my nocturnal erections (NEs) and piss hardons (PHs) were

minimal...so I went back to AG. I surmised later that it was drinking

caffeinated iced tea for dinner that disturbed my sleep. Deep REM sleep is

needed for NEs and PHs so I went back to AG.

Now that I've learned what the issue was, I'm considering going back on

injections.

I cannot discern any appreciable loss in my nut mass. When I'm relaxed, my

dick and nuts hand 4 " below pelvic floor. My nuts are about size of

unshelled walnuts.

I think my dick is larger being on TRT.

I'm 64 and I'm in the erectile dysfunction years....I pump my dick almost

daily, take L-Arginine (precursor of nitric oxide - gas that causes

erections). B/f gave me a large supply of his unused Viagra and I've been

taking 50 mg along with ~5 gms L-Arginine at night. I have nonbendable NEs

and PHs.

It seems very queer the variability of responses men have to TRT. It seems

that many men do experience loss of nut mass, which is disconcerting to

them. I think a friend at ASI Newsgroups sums it up well...he's on TRT and

says that only his wife sees him nude so his nut shrinkage is no big issue

for him.

Just my experiences,

OR eon

September 16, 2002

hi guys,

I've been on androgel since last december because of a Pituitary

tumor. my balls have always been on the smaller side and now they

are even smaller. Sometimes I can hardly feel one of them. I see my

Endo this week and I'm going to complain about to him. I'm not sure

the Drs can do anything. I know they won't put me on HGH - because

the insurance company will most likely deny it since right now, I'm

only considered hypogondatrophic hypogonadism.

Since I'm sure I've been infertile - and at age 46 - and being Gay,

I'm sure I'll never have kids. I've also read that taking TRT can

cause your testicles to have a higher rate of cancer and also a

higher rate of prostrate cancer. I'm wondering if I should ask the

doctors if I should get both balls removed since they are not doing

anything but sitting there. I have read about testical prosthetics

and would like to get them - Large size please

I hate going to the gym and undressing - all you see is a bunch of

hair with nothing hanging down. Its quite embarassing for me.

Having bigger nuts, I'd finally be able to wear a cock-ring the

proper way without fear of it clanking to the floor.

Ken

February 8, 2003

Real,

Testicular shrinkage is a problem for many on testosterone

replacement therapy. Basically what happens is this - since your body

is recieving T from an outside source, it turns off any of its own

production. The little organs in the testes responsible for this

production atrophy, and thus the shrinkage. Mine have shriveled to

1/2 their original size on the left, and the right one maybe to 1/3

original size. HCG stimulates these organs directly, and thus can

cause your testes to swell back up. There are a few on the forum who

are using both HCG and T gel or shots together, and hopefully one of

them will respond to your question. I have not tried the HCG yet.

Regards,

K4

P.S. I also had my penis shrivel up to almost nothing but skin.

Someone said this was probably due to an estrogen overload, and

suggested applying Androgel to the penis. I put it on the top of my

shaft. Penis has fleshed back out, but not quite to original size. :-(

> I am new to this group and would like some information. Recently I

> started the gel after a visit to the GP who from blood test

indicated

> that I might want to consider TRT which I did.I have noticed a big

> improvement not only in the way I feel...which is great (less

> irritable)but sleeping patterns improved as well as libido. My T

> levels jumped from 260 to 860+. Only problem that I have noticed

is

> my testicles have shrunk. After consulting with the GP he

suggested

> the use of HCG. He said what you might want to do is go off of the

> gel for a week, during this time inject 3000 for the first 3000 for

> the second and 4000 for the fourth spaced a couple of days apart.

> This would be only for the first week of the month for every month.

I

> was concerned if I did this I would be hyogonadal for the week that

I

> was on the HCG and off of the gel. He said that I might want to

try

> both concerently. I know that this drug can easily cause

gynomastia

> in men and this is a concern of mine. I really like the gel after

> trying the skin patches and the scrotum patches. Anyone have any

> thoughts? The doc said that there is no real studies on the use of

> HCG concerntly with androgel.

February 8, 2003

I have read with great interest over the past year the many posts

concerning atrophy of the balls. I guess I was a little concerned

about it, probably strictly for vanity reasons. It seems like there

is a wide range of degrees to which one might expect some

shrinkage. In my own case, I was always a little less " endowed " on

my right side (was essentially indiscernable) ever since puberty

(now 51). In fact, I have always been suspicious of this as perhaps

explaining why I never did quite mature as much as most, although I

have never been anything less than adequate when it comes time to

perform. But to the topic - I have been on increasing dosages of

Androgel for 1 year now, and have been at 10gm/day for 4 months.

Much to my delight, that right nut has *finally* taken shape, and is

quite obviously in good shape now! No shrinkage on the left

either. Does this make any sense to anyone? I am primary, BTW.

Side note - I wanted to thank those who's posts encouraged me to try

IndolPlex with DIM - after 1 month, I can now say that I feel it is

working well. Initially, my TRT gave me back all the masuculinity I

have been missing lately, but that efffect did seem to wane

somewhat, which I am now confident was an increase in estradiol (lab

tests bore this out - latest was 55). Although no lab work since

starting DIM, I can *feel* the difference, and am thrilled! I am

combating estradiol now with 2 120 tabs DIM/day, as well as 60mg

zinc picolinate/day, and soy isoflavones. This cocktail seems to be

doing the trick, and I look forward to the next lab tests to verify

it.

Cheers.../Dale

February 9, 2003

Do you take the soy isoflavones as a supplement or by consuming foods made with

soy?