Re: Androgel and testicular shrinkage

[Guest guest]

" should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a inevidable

>part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the treatment.

>I really dont want this happening to me. " >

HERE ARE MY TWO CENTS:

MY NUTS ...WHILE I VALUE THEM, AND HAVE DERIVED GREAT EROTIC PLEASURE FROM

THEM (BOTH IN ORAL SEX AND MASTURBATION),HAVE NEVER BEEN VERY BIG TO BEGIN

WITH.

HOWEVER, KNOWING NOW THE TREMENDOUS INCREASE IN THE QUALITY OF MY LIFE AND

BEING...I WILL GRUDGINLY ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE GONNA SHRINK.

HOWEVER, I AM USING HCG...AND AM ACTUALLY MARVELLING THAT...WHEN USED EARLY

ON...THEY DOUBLED IN SIZE.

IN CLOSING: THE EFFECTS OF 'NORMAL' T...ARE WORTH IT. I LIKE FEELING

VIRILE.

_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[Guest guest]

,

I've been on TRT since Feb '99...I've not discerned any appreciable

reduction in my nut mass. Palpable nut size is ~unshelled walnuts...when

I'm relaxed, cock and nuts hang ~4 " below pelvic floor.

There was something interesting on news about an hour ago...couples that

cannot conceive.....male sperm may lack a protein to initiate

fertilization.....I think the work came from London.

OR eon

[Guest guest]

T-therapy normally shouldn't increase your sperm count, in fact it

should decrease it. The reason being is that as your T count goes up,

this should provide feedback to your hypothalamus (think of it as a

thermometer). When it detects a higher level of T, it will slow down

production of the chemicals that make the testes produce it. Because

your testes will cut back on production they will shrink because the

cells are not active.

hCG used in conjunction with HMG should raise your sperm count and

testosterone levels. This is a standard treatment for fertility. It does

this by adding more of the chemicals that trigger the testes to produce

sperm and testosterone. This will make your testes grow larger because

they are working again (if you respond to the treatment).

I believe that the reason that your T levels didn't improve with the T

injection is because:

1. 400mg is too low of a dosage.

2. Once a month is too infrequent. It should be once every 2 or 3 weeks.

Also, as far as the 5G packet of AG, that isn't really enough either.

You should try to either use 2 packets of that per day or else have the

doctor prescribe the 10G pack. I prefer the 2 5G's because it keeps me

from having the lows between dosages.

Once again, I am not a doctor so no guarantees on the accuracy of this

information. I just do the best I can. :-)

Good luck,

Connery

Email: jonathan@...

<mailto:jonathan@...>

Web: http://www.jonathanconnery.com

<http://www.jonathanconnery.com/>

" We must always strive to do the things we think we cannot do. " -Eleanor

Roosevelt

Androgel and Testicular Shrinkage

My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with depo

shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

however my wife still isnt pregnant.

I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on about

the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland tumors.

Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the exception

of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T was

331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6 months.

Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the shot and

put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will have

some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on the

Androgel.

Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that some

men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T replacement.

Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a inevidable

part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the treatment.

I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests, when

everything hormonally is normal.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

I will tell you what happened to me with androgel. I also had low T

(<200) and doc put me on androgel. My T came up to an acceptable level

from labs even though I didn't feel any better. While this was going on,

my wife and I were trying to have a baby. Had my sperm count tested and

found it was " 0! " . Freaked us out, went to a urologist who said I needed

a testicular biopsy. So I did this thinking some was really wrong with

me, he found no testicular malfunction, my testicles just weren't

getting the signal to produce sperm. So my wife and I went to a

reproductive endocrinologist(RE)..she said that the androgel absolutely

was making me infertile!...so I went off it and she gave me a low dose

of clomid as a boost and after several months, my sperm count went thru

the roof and my wife is now pregnant. No doctor/urologist before the RE

had a clue that external testosterone could make you infertile, I had to

go thru a painful biopsy for nothing!

The RE we saw hinted about better ways to treat my low T and after

reading this group and doing some research the answer is HCG. Since my

testicles are working ok it means my brain(for whatever reason) isn't

producing LH /FSH(which by the way from labs is very low) which in turn

tells your testicles to produce T and sperm. I would find a good endo to

see if your hypogonadism is secondary(meaning your testicles are working

ok) if so , HCG would be the better choice, especially if you want to

have children.

scott

Lex72_98 wrote:

> My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

> diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with depo

> shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> however my wife still isnt pregnant.

>

> I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on about

> the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland tumors.

> Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the exception

> of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T was

> 331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6 months.

>

> Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the shot and

> put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will have

> some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on the

> Androgel.

>

> Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that some

> men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T replacement.

> Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a inevidable

> part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the treatment.

> I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests, when

> everything hormonally is normal.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

> diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with depo

> shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> however my wife still isnt pregnant.

Lex, testosterone replacement, whether via depo shots or androgel, will result

in your body ceasing its own manufacture of testosterone, resulting in total

infertility. Therefore, it's hard to understand your statement " my sperm quality

is much improved. "

For men wishing to have children, testosterone replacement is not the way to

go. Talk to your endocronologyst about HCG. If he isn't familiar with it, find

one

who is. HCG stimulates your testicles to produce more testosterone. If they're

capable, it will increase fertility,

Download, print out, read, then give to your endo the document from the

American Association of Clinical Endocronologists AACE Clinical Practice

Guidelines for the Evaluation and Treatment of Hypogonadism in Adult Male

Patients.

Go to http://www.aace.com/

do a quicksearch for hypogonadism

then download the hypogonadism pdf file

It's heavy reading, but worth it.

If your endo won't consider trying HCG, find one who will. It's your life and

your body. Good luck.

PS: My t was 247; HCG increased it to 650.

[Guest guest]

,

Loss of nut mass is not necessarily a given on TRT...in addition to myself,

I know of several other men that have maintained nut mass.

" Perhaps " is perhaps a more appropriate term.

OR eon

[Guest guest]

> My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

> diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with depo

> shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> however my wife still isnt pregnant.

This doesn' t make sense to me because depo-T stops your own

production of both LH and FSH, in effect making you sterile. I was

tested 6 months after taking 100mg per week of cypionate and my sperm

count was zero. If your sperm count is not zero, you probably aren't

taking enough testosterone, and your T level is probably not high

enough.

Also, it's unusual to have 400 mg once a month as well, since there is

more of a mood swing variation on less frequent shots. Usually shots

are given every two weeks or every week, which would work out to 200

mg every two weeks, or 100 mg every week.

> Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that some

> men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T replacement.

> Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a inevidable

> part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the treatment.

> I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests, when

> everything hormonally is normal.

MOST men on T shots or gel will eventually have testicular shrinkage,

in spite of what happened to OR Eon, who reports no shrinkage. If you

want to maintain the size of your testicles, you first have to find

out if you have primary or secondary hypogonadism. If you have the

secondary form, you can take HCG or HMG to make your own testicles

keep working and maintain their size. You won't go sterile that way

either. If you have primary, nothing can be done to prevent

shrinkage, unless you stop the shots, but then your T level will be

too low again. In fact, your T level may never come back up to the

level it was before starting the shots, or it will take a very long

time to return to that level.

As for no explanation of what's wrong, most of us don't know why it

happens--it just does. In my case I had an MRI of my pituitary and

nothing unusual was found; no tumor or other abnormality.

[Guest guest]

Heh! Flame, flame, flame.... And people ask me why I add my little

disclaimer at the end of my messages? Sheesh.

Every single person is different and responds to type, dosage and

frequency of medication differently. There are no absolutes in anything,

certainly not medical treatment, and certainly not for endocrine related

conditions. So please do me a favor and just assume that my statements

will be based on the majority of results if I forget to say so. I will

try to do better in the future.

Although I am happy that you have not experienced this effect, I find it

a disservice to not state the facts of all possible side effects when

recommending treatment options. I do hope that you might concede that

you and your " nuts " are a minority when it comes to the shrinkage side

effect. A recent study I came across just last night showed 0 people out

of a total of 40 people tested for testicular mass during a T-therapy

study that retained their mass. All of them lost significant mass.

Regards,

Connery

Email: jonathan@...

<mailto:jonathan@...>

Web: http://www.jonathanconnery.com

<http://www.jonathanconnery.com/>

" We must always strive to do the things we think we cannot do. " -Eleanor

Roosevelt

Re: Androgel and Testicular Shrinkage

,

Loss of nut mass is not necessarily a given on TRT...in addition to

myself,

I know of several other men that have maintained nut mass.

" Perhaps " is perhaps a more appropriate term.

OR eon

[Guest guest]

,

Who you trying to flame? Can you address a person by their name?

OR eon

Queer Man!

[Guest guest]

Heh, I wasn't intending to flame anyone... I was responding to your

" perhaps " flame. Maybe I am in just one of those " sensitive " or

aggressive moods today. Just seems every time I try to offer help on

this list someone always has some sort of comment.

Warning: Person posting this message is on testosterone and hCG therapy

and may be considered drugged and dangerous! Hehe.

Connery

Email: jonathan@...

<mailto:jonathan@...>

Web: http://www.jonathanconnery.com

<http://www.jonathanconnery.com/>

" We must always strive to do the things we think we cannot do. " -Eleanor

Roosevelt

Re: Androgel and Testicular Shrinkage

,

Who you trying to flame? Can you address a person by their name?

OR eon

Queer Man!

[Guest guest]

,

I try to be very careful and qualify all my statements with a vigorous

sprinkling of " perhaps " and " may " . As you stated yourself, there are no

absolutes. When I was in grad school...several instructors would try

drawing us in by wording T and F questions.... " all " , " every " etc. if you

marked T your were wrong.

My PSA runs 10 - 13 and has been elevating over time. Pathologist comment

on two cores of my first TRUS prostate biopsy...

" " The finding of high grade PIN on needle biopsies should instigate a

careful search for accompanying adenocarcinoma which is present on repeat

biopsy in 30% to 50% of patients. That was Feb '01

I'm a " the glass is half full type guy " the above statement can be turned

around to read that " 50% to 70% of patients show no adenocarcinoma on repeat

biopsy " . Had repeat TRUS May '02....12 cores collected...no

adenocarcinoma.

Your statement about X of Y men with diminished nut mass....then perhaps the

sample size was not large enough.

I've got a dig cam and I can send you and image.

OR eon

Really Queer

P.S. I do think these discussions are healthy as long as we are gentlemanly

and respect views of one another.

[Guest guest]

> Heh, I wasn't intending to flame anyone... I was responding to your

> " perhaps " flame.

Oh, that was more of a spark than a flame.

> Maybe I am in just one of those " sensitive " or

> aggressive moods today. Just seems every time I try to offer help on

> this list someone always has some sort of comment.

As you observed there is a diversity of experience and people like to

chime in with their own experiences. I wouldn't generally interpret

comments as anything other than active participation. Of course

civility is to be encouraged. Anyway, I think your posts are quite

good. Besides we need good responses when someone asks " What's hcg? "

for the 9,000th time...

Brad

[Guest guest]

Don't forget that the statement is also another way of saying we are not

sure. It is just a way for the medical community to cover themselves.

But one interesting thing though. Your PSA is still going up with

Arimidex. Do you take it daily or weekly. I take mine daily. For

those who do not take Arimidex daily you might be causing a roller

coaster effect with your Estrogen Levels. If you want sustained

antiaromatization control then you have to take it daily.

Re: Androgel and Testicular Shrinkage

,

I try to be very careful and qualify all my statements with a vigorous

sprinkling of " perhaps " and " may " . As you stated yourself, there are

no

absolutes. When I was in grad school...several instructors would try

drawing us in by wording T and F questions.... " all " , " every " etc. if

you

marked T your were wrong.

My PSA runs 10 - 13 and has been elevating over time. Pathologist

comment

on two cores of my first TRUS prostate biopsy...

" " The finding of high grade PIN on needle biopsies should instigate a

careful search for accompanying adenocarcinoma which is present on

repeat

biopsy in 30% to 50% of patients. That was Feb '01

I'm a " the glass is half full type guy " the above statement can be

turned

around to read that " 50% to 70% of patients show no adenocarcinoma on

repeat

biopsy " . Had repeat TRUS May '02....12 cores collected...no

adenocarcinoma.

Your statement about X of Y men with diminished nut mass....then perhaps

the

sample size was not large enough.

I've got a dig cam and I can send you and image.

OR eon

Really Queer

P.S. I do think these discussions are healthy as long as we are

gentlemanly

and respect views of one another.

[Guest guest]

Dwight Meeks wrote....

" Don't forget that the statement is also another way of saying we are not

sure. It is just a way for the medical community to cover themselves.

But one interesting thing though. "

>>>>>>>Dwight I use qualifiers all the time in emails, daily

conservations...you're right it's another way of saying we are uncertain

about something....but generally, since I'm a " the glass is half full type

guy " , qualifiers are generally in a positive context.

" If you establish a regular gym routine, you may/perhaps, change your

physical body's appearance, and perhaps your self image " .

Periodically, I see posts at ASI " You need to..... " , rather than, I would

suggest.... "

There are always individuals that are " controllers " want to tell us what to

do, rather than make suggestions.

" Your PSA is still going up with Arimidex. "

>>>>>>>My PSA seems to hover around 10

I've posted this site a few times but it's worth posting again...

http://www.t-mag.com/articles/171estro.html

" Do you take it daily or weekly. I take mine daily. For

those who do not take Arimidex daily you might be causing a roller

coaster effect with your Estrogen Levels. "

My estradiol/estrogen levels over time with Arimidex dosing

Date

................................Estradiol........................Estrogen

9-28-00......................71 (<54)

12-19-00....................99

2-1-01.........................58

2-9-01.........................52

3-01-01.......................96

3-26-01.......................50

6-4-01.........................82..............................134 (40 -115)

7-9-00.........................55..............................200

8-2-01.........................87..............................198

Began 1 mg/dy Arimidex

9-29-01.......................37................................85

Began 1 mg Arimidex eod

11-2-01.......................59...............................101

Resumed 1 mg Arimidex/dy

12-5-01.......................50...............................124

3-11-02.......................16.................................44

1 mg Arimidex for two days....one day off

4-29-02........................27.................................73

7--3-02.........................52...............................112

Began Basic (7%) ChryDim Gel....Oct 16th '00

Began Super (10%) ChryDim Gel....Dec 25th '00

I'm still tinkering with Arimidex dosing....1 mg/dy brought Es down after

two months...then reading posts here, I switched to 1 mg/eod...Es

elevated..then I tried several other regimens.

Yesterday, July 19th, I went back on injections (hurray!!!) 100

mg/wk...I've been taking 1 mg Arimidex/dy for couple of weeks now. I'll have

T's and E's measured in ~two months. Off top of my head, I'm thinking that

1 mg two dys in a row followed by 0.5 mg....might work.

" If you want sustained

antiaromatization control then you have to take it daily. " "

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Not sure about that...various factors probably have to be

considered....maybe age...some of younger men here do well with 1 mg/eod.

Form of external T, i.e. gel vs. injections. According to Shippen,

injections cause most T > E conversion.

Just my experiences...

OR eon

[Guest guest]

> > Heh, I wasn't intending to flame anyone... I was responding to

your

> > " perhaps " flame.

>

> Oh, that was more of a spark than a flame.

>

> > Maybe I am in just one of those " sensitive " or

> > aggressive moods today. Just seems every time I try to offer help

on

> > this list someone always has some sort of comment.

>

> As you observed there is a diversity of experience and people like

to

> chime in with their own experiences. I wouldn't generally

interpret

> comments as anything other than active participation. Of course

> civility is to be encouraged. Anyway, I think your posts are quite

> good. Besides we need good responses when someone asks " What's

hcg? "

> for the 9,000th time...

>

> Brad

Guys I was just wondering. If the testosterone treatments shrinks

your balls and then for some reason you decide to go off treatment do

they return to there original size or are they shrunken forever .

magna

[Guest guest]

Lex,

Some people do not have testicular shrinkage. Others do. Mine are

still shrinking, although at different rates. My right nut is about

1/3 it's original size. My left is about 1/2. In addition, I went

through a period of several months where my penis shriveled up -

looked like a charpei dog (the one with the wrinkled skin). The

tissue inside seemed to be wasting away, and for a while it was

almost all skin and a urethra. I think I lost length as well - maybe

3/4 inch (ouch!). I upped the T dose and now apply some Agel directly

to penis. It is not back where it was, but is much more " normal " . Not

sure what caused this, but I remember one guy on the forum who had

his penis shrink up to an inch-long stub. Of course, the doctors

don't mention any of this stuff when thy put you on these hormones....

Regards,

K4

> My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

> diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with depo

> shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> however my wife still isnt pregnant.

>

> I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on about

> the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland

tumors.

> Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the

exception

> of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T was

> 331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6 months.

>

> Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the shot

and

> put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will have

> some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on the

> Androgel.

>

> Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that some

> men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T replacement.

> Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a inevidable

> part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the

treatment.

> I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests, when

> everything hormonally is normal.

>

> Thanks,

>

[Guest guest]

Fellow Group Memebers,

I would like to thank you very much for all of the info you have

provided me thus far. Most of which I have already read up on after

al of the links you graciously provided to me. NO it seems that I

have more questions. I have an appt with my urologyst this Thursday

and hopefully will have mmore answers.

After sveral visits and tests from my endo he seems to think that I

dont need T replacement at all. That all of my hormones including LH

levels are within normal. Also my T was at 336 (blood was drawn

before my next T shot, 4 weeks had already passed) at my last blood

draw from him. So I am totally confused. As far as he can tell I do

not have any characteristics of having central hypogonadism and

according to my hormone levels do not have secondary hypogonadism. He

seems to think that I can go off of the T all together. Is it

possible when I am having my blood drawn that I am having it done to

late in the day? I read that blood should be taken when T levels are

at their highest (morning), as apposed to when I have been having the

draws, (late afternoon). That perhaps they are at their lowest then?

Im not sure?

All of this started so my wife and I could have kids, this is the

course of treatment he has had me on so far, depo injections then

Androgel instead of injections. I have become allot hairier since

this began not to mention I dont have as many problems keeping an

erection as I did before treatment. I am only 30 yo and seem normal

other then the ed. Before I started treatment I weighed 340#, now I

am 286# (working out has been really fruitful). Their have been allot

of positive results of the T replacement. Now I am afraid that I go

off of the treatment I will start to have more frequent ed, this

could be a problem with trying to have a kid.

I have not noticed any testicular shrinkage as of now, that I know

of. However it does seem that my penis has become a bit longer, but I

think I contribute that to the weight loss. The instruction for the

Andro clearly said not to apply Andro to the penis and testicals, so

I am kind of leary about doing that. Although doesnt the alcohol

sting the glands a bit?

I know long winded...(I know I repeated some info from my earlier

post) Im not quite sure what to do. Tomorrow I am going to obtain my

records and test results from the endo and be sure he didnt miss

somthing. When he browses them over for only a few moments he could

have really missed something important. If there is any more advice

or tips I would really appreciate your time and efforts.

Again thank you all so very much for being so supportive and helpful.

Thank you,

> > My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

> > diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with

depo

> > shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> > however my wife still isnt pregnant.

> >

> > I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on

about

> > the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland

> tumors.

> > Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the

> exception

> > of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T

was

> > 331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6

months.

> >

> > Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the shot

> and

> > put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will have

> > some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on

the

> > Androgel.

> >

> > Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that

some

> > men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T

replacement.

> > Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a

inevidable

> > part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the

> treatment.

> > I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> > doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests,

when

> > everything hormonally is normal.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

[Guest guest]

,

Your post not long winded...IMO many posts here are too brief and give only

scant details.

What was your T level before you started TRT?

This chart gives optimal Serum and Free T and SHBG levels in men by age

groups. The same story heard many times, as long as your T level falls

within testing lab's ref range, many docs consider you normal....even if for

a 70 yo man. I'm 64 and I keep my T level in 700+ range.

Glad to hear that you've not discerned any nut shrinkage....how long have

you been on TRT? I started Feb '99.

As far as putting AG on your cock n' nuts....Unimed does advise against

that, but I think it's because of potential stinging of alcohol base.

Everyone's skin sensitivity is different. Myself, I enjoy the mild, glowing

sensation I get when I put AG on my cock n' nuts....it seems that I've

developed tolerance as the sensation is not as intense as initially.

I've gone back on injections, which I prefer over AG. I will continue

putting AG on my cock n nuts periodically.

Time for blood draw. I always like having first appt with my PCP, 8:30 AM,

so my blood is generally collected 9:00 AMish. I know for natural T cycle,

T levels are highest in the morning. I saw a figure once that extrapolated

T level down if blood was drawn in afternoon....like ~30% lower....not sure.

So perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment....when one is on TRT, do

T levels follow natural T production cycle.

If your endo is uncooperative in letting you maintain an appropriate T level

for your age, you might consider getting referral to another endo.

For ED issues....Alt Support Impotence, Newsgroup and the web site

http://www.communityzero.com/asi/index.cfm

This is a new thread at the web site.... RE:RE:New endo doc -- what to

expect

So I follow this group, and both the ED sites. For me, not one site can

provide all the information that I'm interested in.

Good luck..

OR eon

[Guest guest]

,

I failed to include link to chart on T/SHBG levels

http://www.alt-support-impotence.org/hormone_charts.htm

OR eon

[Guest guest]

Lex,

I would be very leery of an Endo who thinks a T level of 336 is OK.

Not sure how old you are, but there is a link in the bookmarks

section to a list of T levels by age. I'm 44, and the normal range

for me is around 600. Your level of 336 is in the range for an 85

year old!!!

Just to show you how dangerous this is, a friend of mine had a T

level of 344 and he developed severe osteoporosis in his spine before

he finally got treated with Androgel. Remember, just because your lab

values fall in the range the laboratory considers " normal " does not

mean its normal for YOU! If your Endo doesn't recognize this, he has

a problem (and so do you!)

Regards,

K4

> > > My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I

was

> > > diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with

> depo

> > > shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> > > however my wife still isnt pregnant.

> > >

> > > I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on

> about

> > > the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland

> > tumors.

> > > Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the

> > exception

> > > of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T

> was

> > > 331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6

> months.

> > >

> > > Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the

shot

> > and

> > > put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will

have

> > > some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on

> the

> > > Androgel.

> > >

> > > Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that

> some

> > > men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T

> replacement.

> > > Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a

> inevidable

> > > part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the

> > treatment.

> > > I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> > > doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests,

> when

> > > everything hormonally is normal.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

[Guest guest]

> I would be very leery of an Endo who thinks a T level of 336 is

OK.

> Not sure how old you are, but there is a link in the bookmarks

> section to a list of T levels by age. I'm 44, and the normal range

> for me is around 600. Your level of 336 is in the range for an 85

> year old!!!

>

GENTLEMEN....This is precisely what we need to educate ourselves

about. " Normal " may not necessarily be so...nor is it OPTIMAL.

I too had been denied treament, as a healthy 40 year old...with a

Total T level of 240!!!!. This level falls withing the range

considered normal, albiet, for that of an 85 year old man.

I suffered all of the symptoms. Total impotence...shrinkage of

penis..extreme fatigue..'Sore' body symdrome (which was treated with

drugs, that exacted very bad side effects: ulcer from

relafen...etc), I had no motivation was DEPRESSED. Basically, the

quality of my life was dismal.

Since starting HRT, which I was forced to obtain online.. THE

QUALILTY OF MY LIFE HAS SKYROCKETED....TRULY REBORN. This account is

no exageration.

As mentioned in an earlier posting, my advice to you is; TAKE

CONTROL OF YOUR OWN CIRCUMSTANCES. EDUCATE YOURSELF...LEARN FROM

OTHERS...DO WHAT YOU MUST. (I do not, under any circumstances,

advocate entering any treatment with disregard to healty and safety.

Rule no. 1 : " Be prepared/ Be knowledgeable " )

This condition we have is treatable. Not everyone will respond the

same, as our engines all run a little different...but consider the

alternatives. I WILL NOT go back to where I was before.

I invite my brothers to ask questions or respond.

Singed,

Hairy/Horny/Hard/Happy

[Guest guest]

Okay, lots to discuss:

I agree with Kaitain4 that the level is far below what you should

normally have as a 30 year old. I think the thing that may be throwing

your doctor is because your LH/FSH levels are in the normal range (If I

remember this right). When these levels are normal, the next things to

check for are signs of Primary Hypogonadism. Just because your testes

seem to be somewhat functioning, does not mean that you are not

deficient. If it is idiopathic adult-onset Hypogonadism, then rarely do

the testes cease to function like a switch, most often it is a more

gradual process that slows before stopping. (Unless induced by some

trauma, like injury or surgery.)

I also agree that there will be fluctuations in readings between morning

and evening draws. Those would vary due to your natural daily patterns.

However, if you are undergoing T-therapy, then these patterns will not

be impacted as greatly, it all depends on the percentage of testosterone

being replaced vs. your natural production.

Most importantly, 4 weeks seems to be far too long to schedule a draw

after your last treatment. Within 4 weeks, I would guess that almost all

of the testosterone from the injection had been depleted. I took my

injections once every 2 weeks and I would start feeling somewhat worse 4

or 5 days before my next injection. But of course without replacement,

my levels become nearly undetectable. (15 total T or so)

Another thing I would recommend is trying to take a morning blood draw 1

week after your last injection, then sitting down with your doctor and

discussing the results until you are satisfied.

Lastly, if you do happen to be diagnosed as primary (never heard of

central), I would suggest going off T-therapy, and having a sperm count

done if you have not already. If this is too low, I would recommend

looking into some sort of artificial insemination or a storage program.

If you are primary and your testes are failing, you want to gather sperm

before they go. Keep in mind that the T-therapy will also reduce sperm

count.

Please, do not take my word as correct. I am no doctor, just doing the

best I can to control my own condition and help others. Always confirm

this information with your endocrinologist. I wish you the best of luck.

Regards,

Connery

Email: jonathan@...

<mailto:jonathan@...>

Web: http://www.jonathanconnery.com

<http://www.jonathanconnery.com/>

" We must always strive to do the things we think we cannot do. " -Eleanor

Roosevelt

Re: Androgel and Testicular Shrinkage

Fellow Group Memebers,

I would like to thank you very much for all of the info you have

provided me thus far. Most of which I have already read up on after

al of the links you graciously provided to me. NO it seems that I

have more questions. I have an appt with my urologyst this Thursday

and hopefully will have mmore answers.

After sveral visits and tests from my endo he seems to think that I

dont need T replacement at all. That all of my hormones including LH

levels are within normal. Also my T was at 336 (blood was drawn

before my next T shot, 4 weeks had already passed) at my last blood

draw from him. So I am totally confused. As far as he can tell I do

not have any characteristics of having central hypogonadism and

according to my hormone levels do not have secondary hypogonadism. He

seems to think that I can go off of the T all together. Is it

possible when I am having my blood drawn that I am having it done to

late in the day? I read that blood should be taken when T levels are

at their highest (morning), as apposed to when I have been having the

draws, (late afternoon). That perhaps they are at their lowest then?

Im not sure?

All of this started so my wife and I could have kids, this is the

course of treatment he has had me on so far, depo injections then

Androgel instead of injections. I have become allot hairier since

this began not to mention I dont have as many problems keeping an

erection as I did before treatment. I am only 30 yo and seem normal

other then the ed. Before I started treatment I weighed 340#, now I

am 286# (working out has been really fruitful). Their have been allot

of positive results of the T replacement. Now I am afraid that I go

off of the treatment I will start to have more frequent ed, this

could be a problem with trying to have a kid.

I have not noticed any testicular shrinkage as of now, that I know

of. However it does seem that my penis has become a bit longer, but I

think I contribute that to the weight loss. The instruction for the

Andro clearly said not to apply Andro to the penis and testicals, so

I am kind of leary about doing that. Although doesnt the alcohol

sting the glands a bit?

I know long winded...(I know I repeated some info from my earlier

post) Im not quite sure what to do. Tomorrow I am going to obtain my

records and test results from the endo and be sure he didnt miss

somthing. When he browses them over for only a few moments he could

have really missed something important. If there is any more advice

or tips I would really appreciate your time and efforts.

Again thank you all so very much for being so supportive and helpful.

Thank you,

> > My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I was

> > diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with

depo

> > shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> > however my wife still isnt pregnant.

> >

> > I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on

about

> > the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland

> tumors.

> > Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the

> exception

> > of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T

was

> > 331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6

months.

> >

> > Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the shot

> and

> > put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will have

> > some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on

the

> > Androgel.

> >

> > Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that

some

> > men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T

replacement.

> > Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a

inevidable

> > part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the

> treatment.

> > I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> > doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests,

when

> > everything hormonally is normal.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know the significance of SHBG and T level. I " ve been reading

that total T levels can be deceptive if not scaled with SHBG(Sex Hormone

Binding Globulin) since this is what really determines the free levels

in the blood. So if your total T is say 250 and your SHBG is way

low...your true free T (the usable stuff) can still be normal?......

kaitain4 wrote:

> Lex,

>

> I would be very leery of an Endo who thinks a T level of 336 is OK.

> Not sure how old you are, but there is a link in the bookmarks

> section to a list of T levels by age. I'm 44, and the normal range

> for me is around 600. Your level of 336 is in the range for an 85

> year old!!!

>

> Just to show you how dangerous this is, a friend of mine had a T

> level of 344 and he developed severe osteoporosis in his spine before

> he finally got treated with Androgel. Remember, just because your lab

> values fall in the range the laboratory considers " normal " does not

> mean its normal for YOU! If your Endo doesn't recognize this, he has

> a problem (and so do you!)

>

>

> Regards,

>

> K4

>

>

>

> > > > My wife and I went through fertility testing last October. I

> was

> > > > diagnosed with low T, 223 total. My urologyst started me with

> > depo

> > > > shots once a month 400mg. My sperm quality is much improved now

> > > > however my wife still isnt pregnant.

> > > >

> > > > I then saw an endrocronolgyst to figure out what was going on

> > about

> > > > the low T. He sent me for a MRI to check for pituitary gland

> > > tumors.

> > > > Everything is normal and healthy. Also my hormones with the

> > > exception

> > > > of low T based on blood work are with in normal range, total T

> > was

> > > > 331 2 months ago. He sent me on my way with a follw up in 6

> > months.

> > > >

> > > > Then about 2 monthes ago my urologist stopped giving me the

> shot

> > > and

> > > > put me on androgel instead... 1 packet of 5 mg a day. I will

> have

> > > > some tests today to see where my level is at now after being on

> > the

> > > > Androgel.

> > > >

> > > > Now after doing more reading on the matter I have noticed that

> > some

> > > > men complain of testicalar shrinkage while being on T

> > replacement.

> > > > Should I worry about this happening to me? If this is a

> > inevidable

> > > > part of T replacement then perhaps I should go off of the

> > > treatment.

> > > > I really dont want this happening to me. Also not to mention my

> > > > doctors have no explanation for the low T after so many tests,

> > when

> > > > everything hormonally is normal.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You can read some information at this site....

http://www.labcorp.com/

OR eon

[Guest guest]

HI Everyone,

I just got home from my endo visit (second opinion). This is the

latest....

Since my hormone levels are normal, after viewing my labs and MRI

report (pituitary gland normal) it seems that my testicals are not

recieving the FSH/LH chemical signals in order to produce T. I show

no obvious signs of primary hypogonadism, he recomended that I find a

fertility specialist to start FSH/LH replacement. He said that type

of treatment was to advanced for his practice. Also, he wasnt sure of

any in Phoenix, Az. I have seen some material on this but would like

to read more.

Also he suggested that I stop with the Androgel. Because I am over

200 lbs that I have a higher chance or producing alot of estrogen

becasue of the fatty tissues, although I am only at 26% body fat. He

then suggested I go back onto depo shots. However, since my urologyst

was only giving me 400mg once a month he would really like to see

weekly injections instead. He did not recomend what kind of

dosage...any ideas? I have an appt with my urologyst on Thursay to go

over my latest labs, also to decide what to do about the Andro/depo

issues. The endo was very concerned that a guy my age 30 shouldnt be

having such problems. Tell me about it, LOL! Last lab being only 336

total T, 1 1/2 months ago.

So now it seems I am at square one. The endo did say that if I can

find FSH/LH treatment that after the mrs is pregenant that I should

go back to T replacement. That my testicals will shrink in time. Very

discerning. I am feeling at a pretty low mental state right now. I

wish this wasnt happening. I have so much pressure on me...to sire a

child (wife is really wanting a kid), to be fit and to be sane and

healthy. Boo-hoo poor me, LOL!

I hope if a specialist is found that my insurance will help me out.

Ive heard that course of treatment can be very costly. I do know that

my insurance company has paid for everything this far, including the

womens fertiltiy clinic when my wife was getting tested. It does say

they will cover most treatment except fertiltiy drugs, does this one

count?

Thank you ,