OT - A Couple of Comments About ABA

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I know that there is some controversy out there regarding ABA. First,

everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am not going to say that anyone is

wrong. Secondly, each and every child is very different - what works for one

may not for another. I am an SLP and I was trained in Hanen - ish Floortime-ish

intervention that is play based - which works great for some. My son did not

respond to it at all. I heard all of the nightmare stories about ABA and was

against it. I heard the electroshock thing, how Lovaas used " mild physical

punishment " (hitting), how kids are strapped into chairs for hours at a time and

their crying is ignored. Our son appeared to be MR as well as " on the

spectrum " . When he turned 3 (he is about to turn 4) we were desperate. We did

a trial of ABA - VB-Verbal Behavior (w/ me in the same room hiding and watching)

and his recptive language and academic skills have flourished. Social skills

are coming along much more slowly. Our son is still

pretty much non-verbal due to severe Apraxia. Verbal Behavior / VB is based on

errorless teaching, if a child cannot perform a task, they are shown how to.

All reinforcement is positive. You do not do skills X number of times in a row.

Therapy is split between table time (ITT - Intensive Structured Teaching-we

began w/ 60 seconds at the table at a time in the beginning) and NET (Natural

Environment Teaching - playing w/ toys, going for a walk, swinging etc.) Our

program also includes structured playdates w/ typically developing peers and

pre-school 2 mornings a week w/ a shadow. For us, generalization of skills has

not been an issue - skills have generalized immediately. My only point is this,

if what you are doing isn't working - please explore other options - you may be

surprised. I have people over all of the time to observe our program because

they too have heard awful things about ABA. In our case, using ABA / VB has

been wonderful.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'm sure you are right and I'm glad for your son. Our boy does Floortime and is

getting a lot out of it. I'm also sure that there are therapist and doctors,

like Granpeshe (spelling?), who have altered ABA enough so as to support rather

than harm children.

But for me, I just can't shake the feeling that something with such a terrible

start can be completely free of harm. It may not be true and I sincerely hope

that my fear is unfounded. The problem is however that biomedical intervention

is proving to be the best, most direct road to recovery. I fear that well

meaning parents who go to ABA type therapies will be discouraged if their kids

don't flourish the way your son has, and go for harsher methods (like the one

sited which uses shock) or abandon hope altogether.

Meade <jenniferdmeade@...> wrote:

Hi,

I know that there is some controversy out there regarding ABA. First,

everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am not going to say that anyone is

wrong. Secondly, each and every child is very different - what works for one

may not for another. I am an SLP and I was trained in Hanen - ish Floortime-ish

intervention that is play based - which works great for some. My son did not

respond to it at all. I heard all of the nightmare stories about ABA and was

against it. I heard the electroshock thing, how Lovaas used " mild physical

punishment " (hitting), how kids are strapped into chairs for hours at a time and

their crying is ignored. Our son appeared to be MR as well as " on the

spectrum " . When he turned 3 (he is about to turn 4) we were desperate. We did

a trial of ABA - VB-Verbal Behavior (w/ me in the same room hiding and watching)

and his recptive language and academic skills have flourished. Social skills

are coming along much more slowly. Our son is still

pretty much non-verbal due to severe Apraxia. Verbal Behavior / VB is based on

errorless teaching, if a child cannot perform a task, they are shown how to.

All reinforcement is positive. You do not do skills X number of times in a row.

Therapy is split between table time (ITT - Intensive Structured Teaching-we

began w/ 60 seconds at the table at a time in the beginning) and NET (Natural

Environment Teaching - playing w/ toys, going for a walk, swinging etc.) Our

program also includes structured playdates w/ typically developing peers and

pre-school 2 mornings a week w/ a shadow. For us, generalization of skills has

not been an issue - skills have generalized immediately. My only point is this,

if what you are doing isn't working - please explore other options - you may be

surprised. I have people over all of the time to observe our program because

they too have heard awful things about ABA. In our case, using ABA / VB has

been wonderful.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

My issue with such programs is this: The parents and others want the child

to " act normal " even if the child is not normal and even if that does meet

the needs of THAT CHILD. Acting normal is about meeting the expectations of

OTHER people, whether parents, peers, teachers or someone else.

Temple Grandin states that autistics who learn to socialize are ones who, at

some point, develop a *reason* for wanting to learn to do so. From reading

her story, it seems clear to me that she learned social skills because she

was put in an environment where she had positive social experiences for the

first time. That wasn't the whole story but I think that is a big piece of

it. I pulled my kids out of school and I made sure they had positive

relationships to people and gave them feedback about their negative behavior

to the effect that " you can keep shooting yourself in the foot OR you can

choose from these other options: X, Y, Z " They were not pressured to stop

shooting themselves in the foot, nor rejected as people, nor punished, and

so on. When given other viable options for trying to meet their *own* needs

without creating social problems for themselves, they generally preferred to

avoid problems.

I'm a very social person and the degree to which my kids still do not care

what other people think or feel sometimes makes me cringe. And sometimes it

makes me envious. I sometimes wish I could do what I want to do without

caring what others feel about it. My children are free of that aspect of my

personality, which is a weakness in some respects and a strength in others.

I never sought to change that aspect of them -- I never sought to get them

to care about the opinions of others, only the negative consequences if they

go too far. They have gotten very good at figuring out the parameters for

what they can get away with which is not " socially acceptable " but also

won't cause them grief. And they live as they choose. And they are happy.

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree with you more. My hat is off to you for all you have done for

your children and for helping all of us by sharing your experiences and wisdom.

Michele <talithamichele@...> wrote: My issue with such programs is this:

The parents and others want the child

to " act normal " even if the child is not normal and even if that does meet

the needs of THAT CHILD. Acting normal is about meeting the expectations of

OTHER people, whether parents, peers, teachers or someone else.

Temple Grandin states that autistics who learn to socialize are ones who, at

some point, develop a *reason* for wanting to learn to do so. From reading

her story, it seems clear to me that she learned social skills because she

was put in an environment where she had positive social experiences for the

first time. That wasn't the whole story but I think that is a big piece of

it. I pulled my kids out of school and I made sure they had positive

relationships to people and gave them feedback about their negative behavior

to the effect that " you can keep shooting yourself in the foot OR you can

choose from these other options: X, Y, Z " They were not pressured to stop

shooting themselves in the foot, nor rejected as people, nor punished, and

so on. When given other viable options for trying to meet their *own* needs

without creating social problems for themselves, they generally preferred to

avoid problems.

I'm a very social person and the degree to which my kids still do not care

what other people think or feel sometimes makes me cringe. And sometimes it

makes me envious. I sometimes wish I could do what I want to do without

caring what others feel about it. My children are free of that aspect of my

personality, which is a weakness in some respects and a strength in others.

I never sought to change that aspect of them -- I never sought to get them

to care about the opinions of others, only the negative consequences if they

go too far. They have gotten very good at figuring out the parameters for

what they can get away with which is not " socially acceptable " but also

won't cause them grief. And they live as they choose. And they are happy.

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

I am so glad that Floortime is working for your son :-). And I believe that

biomedical is the absolute key. My only point was that not all ABA is bad. You

just need to research and make sure that you're program is VB and positive and

includes the natural environment and that your child responds favorably to it.

And if Floortime and ABA / VB don't work there are tons of other therapies to

try. And electroshock is NOT good! :-)

bnana <thisiskathys@...> wrote: I'm sure you are right and I'm glad for

your son. Our boy does Floortime and is getting a lot out of it. I'm also sure

that there are therapist and doctors, like Granpeshe (spelling?), who have

altered ABA enough so as to support rather than harm children.

But for me, I just can't shake the feeling that something with such a terrible

start can be completely free of harm. It may not be true and I sincerely hope

that my fear is unfounded. The problem is however that biomedical intervention

is proving to be the best, most direct road to recovery. I fear that well

meaning parents who go to ABA type therapies will be discouraged if their kids

don't flourish the way your son has, and go for harsher methods (like the one

sited which uses shock) or abandon hope altogether.

Meade <jenniferdmeade@...> wrote:

Hi,

I know that there is some controversy out there regarding ABA. First,

everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am not going to say that anyone is

wrong. Secondly, each and every child is very different - what works for one

may not for another. I am an SLP and I was trained in Hanen - ish Floortime-ish

intervention that is play based - which works great for some. My son did not

respond to it at all. I heard all of the nightmare stories about ABA and was

against it. I heard the electroshock thing, how Lovaas used " mild physical

punishment " (hitting), how kids are strapped into chairs for hours at a time and

their crying is ignored. Our son appeared to be MR as well as " on the

spectrum " . When he turned 3 (he is about to turn 4) we were desperate. We did

a trial of ABA - VB-Verbal Behavior (w/ me in the same room hiding and watching)

and his recptive language and academic skills have flourished. Social skills

are coming along much more slowly. Our son is still

pretty much non-verbal due to severe Apraxia. Verbal Behavior / VB is based on

errorless teaching, if a child cannot perform a task, they are shown how to.

All reinforcement is positive. You do not do skills X number of times in a row.

Therapy is split between table time (ITT - Intensive Structured Teaching-we

began w/ 60 seconds at the table at a time in the beginning) and NET (Natural

Environment Teaching - playing w/ toys, going for a walk, swinging etc.) Our

program also includes structured playdates w/ typically developing peers and

pre-school 2 mornings a week w/ a shadow. For us, generalization of skills has

not been an issue - skills have generalized immediately. My only point is this,

if what you are doing isn't working - please explore other options - you may be

surprised. I have people over all of the time to observe our program because

they too have heard awful things about ABA. In our case, using ABA / VB has

been wonderful.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

> I am so glad that Floortime is working for your son :-). And I

believe that biomedical is the absolute key. My only point was that

not all ABA is bad. You just need to research and make sure that

you're program is VB and positive and includes the natural environment

and that your child responds favorably to it. And if Floortime and

ABA / VB don't work there are tons of other therapies to try.

For us the key has always been motivation and how to capture that...

We do ABA/VB, RDI and Rapid Prompting Method

(www.halo-soma.org)because at any given moment one technique over

another may work when we shape, create or are blessed with that moment

when he gives a damn...those are the teaching moments. It's not about

making him " normal " because there is no such thing but I do want him

to fit in because he wants to fit in...I didn't know this until I met

Soma and her son Tito. Our children are wonderfully gifted but we

have to create an environment that allows them to show us just how

gifted. Sometimes that takes contrived conditioning and sometimes it

just us capturing the moment but we have to push the kids. We have to

ask them to trust us and trust themselves.

[Guest guest]

On Mon May 22, 2006 3:40pm(PDT), " bnana " thisiskathys@... wrote:

>I'm sure you are right and I'm glad for your son. Our boy does

>Floortime and is getting a lot out of it. I'm also sure that there

>are therapist and doctors, like Granpeshe (spelling?), who have

>altered ABA enough so as to support rather than harm children.

My conclusion is that the specific program, and more than that, the

individual(s) doing the program determine everything. IOW I think

that the right ( PT - OT - speech therapist - psychologist - aba

teacher - special ed teacher - regular ed teacher) can succeed where

others will fail.

This is probably true in general but with our kids who seem to be

much more sensitive than the average child it is even more vital to

have the right person.

Marty

--

Mainstreaming Experiences & Strategies

MainstreamingDisabledKids/

Asperger's/High Functioning Autism Homeschooler's discussion list

as-hfa-homeschool/

[Guest guest]

I think that you have made an excellent point. I can see a big difference in

how my grandson reacts with different therapists. I also see some therapists

interpreting the Floortime concept differently. Some see it as play time, which

I like, and others like manipulation through play, which I hate.

Marty Landman <marty@...> wrote: On Mon May 22, 2006 3:40pm(PDT),

" bnana " thisiskathys@... wrote:

>I'm sure you are right and I'm glad for your son. Our boy does

>Floortime and is getting a lot out of it. I'm also sure that there

>are therapist and doctors, like Granpeshe (spelling?), who have

>altered ABA enough so as to support rather than harm children.

My conclusion is that the specific program, and more than that, the

individual(s) doing the program determine everything. IOW I think

that the right ( PT - OT - speech therapist - psychologist - aba

teacher - special ed teacher - regular ed teacher) can succeed where

others will fail.

This is probably true in general but with our kids who seem to be

much more sensitive than the average child it is even more vital to

have the right person.

Marty

--

Mainstreaming Experiences & Strategies

MainstreamingDisabledKids/

Asperger's/High Functioning Autism Homeschooler's discussion list

as-hfa-homeschool/

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Actually, it's for my grandson and if I had my way, I would rather he just go to

the park and play. That said, I have to acknowlege that my son/daughter's

decision to do floortime seems to be a good one. But I think what you are

saying is right. Someone else on this board said a lot is determined by the

individual therapist and I think that is true.

I'm completely in agreement with you about creating an environment where our

kids can flourish and expand their indivduality. I don't want to lose my

grandson to autism or any kind of therapy that will diminish who he is. What I

really want is the kind of therapy that helps him feel better, be healthier and

helps him communicate who he is and what he feels to others. : D I will look

into the therapy you mentioned. Thank you. : )

dxat2in98 <write434@...> wrote:

>

> I am so glad that Floortime is working for your son :-). And I

believe that biomedical is the absolute key. My only point was that

not all ABA is bad. You just need to research and make sure that

you're program is VB and positive and includes the natural environment

and that your child responds favorably to it. And if Floortime and

ABA / VB don't work there are tons of other therapies to try.

For us the key has always been motivation and how to capture that...

We do ABA/VB, RDI and Rapid Prompting Method

(www.halo-soma.org)because at any given moment one technique over

another may work when we shape, create or are blessed with that moment

when he gives a damn...those are the teaching moments. It's not about

making him " normal " because there is no such thing but I do want him

to fit in because he wants to fit in...I didn't know this until I met

Soma and her son Tito. Our children are wonderfully gifted but we

have to create an environment that allows them to show us just how

gifted. Sometimes that takes contrived conditioning and sometimes it

just us capturing the moment but we have to push the kids. We have to

ask them to trust us and trust themselves.

=======================================================