Re: Re: Andy's Protocal question - can't find the answer

[Guest guest]

Anita writes: << some people choose to leave the ALA for

these doses with the idea that it may stop some redistribution to

the brain (as ALA crosses the BBB but the others don't). This has

never made sense to me since metals seem to cross the BBB just fine

on their own anyhow >>

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ It depends on the form of the metal. In the case

of mercury it is the inorganic ions that actually make you sick, but

they do not cross the BBB. Non-ionized metallic mercury (which

doesn't last very long in the blood before it gets ionized) and

organic methylmercury (as from fish) DO cross the BBB, get ionized,

and get stuck there like a minnow trap. A chelator that can cross

the BBB ***may*** pose a danger of dragging additional inorganic ions

into the brain that would not otherwise have been able to cross if

you have a principal body burden down in your somatic tissues.

(I flagged the word " may " because, as I understand it, the jury's not

out on this yet.) If you are interested in a little primer on the

chemistry of this, here is one I just posted on the AMC group

yesterday that discusses this very matter:

********************************************************************************\

**********************

ChrisRuehl writes:

<< So: something changes the chemistry of the mercury atom (liquifies it

perhaps?) and this would be bad for us? worse than regular mercury?

Why is it bad? And where can I click to find a list of things that

methylate mercury (again, if this is a bad thing, which I think you're

saying it is.) Or does methylation help removal of mercury from the

brain or from everywhere faster?

Thanks, Chris. >>

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ To all who have asked and/or " speculated " about these

important

questions, here is a short chemistry primer I will try to put in layman's terms

as

much as possible. As a starting point I'll assume you are comfortable with the

terms " atom " / " molecule " and " element " / " compound " and the difference

therebetween each pair. If anyone has discomfort or lack of knowledge

of the definition of those four terms, sayso and I will elaborate further on

the essentials of their meaning germane to this discussion.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ asks: << something changes the chemistry of the

mercury atom (liquifies it perhaps?) >> That's partly right but the terminology

needs cleaning up. First, liquefaction is not a property relevant to atoms.

It is a property describing the relationship of large bulk aggregates of

the substance. The mercury species that concern us within the human

body are distributed in single atom or single molecule dispersions amongst

the body fluids and tissues. They do not function as bulk aggregrates, and

thus liquefaction is a meaningless term so applied.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ But the chemistry is definitely changed by the methylation

process, as we will reveal below. It's not the chemistry " of the atom " however.

The mercury atom simply *has* chemical properties...period. They are what

they are. They do not change. To state it correctly, one of two things may

happen that changes the *form* of the mercury into a different species that

possesses chemical properties different from the atom. That is, it may either

be ionized or bonded into a compound. I will elaborate these below.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ We need to briefly divert to mention the difference between

" organic " and " inorganic. " Unlike the shamefully incorrect and deceptively

misleading usurpation of the term " organic " by certain groups within the

food industry, the correct meaning of " organic " simply refers to chemical

compounds that include carbon-hydrogen groups. Often they are biological

in origin leading to the incorrect and deceptive misusage I mentioned above.

But that is not always the case. Organic compounds can be produced in

non-biological ways including synthetic laboratory processes. Some organic

compounds can be among the most horribly poisonous and carcinogenic

substances going.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Inorganic compounds, then, simply mean those that do not

contain carbon-hydrogen groups. They come in a few different varieties, but

the one which concerns us in the mercury poisoning issue are " ionic " compounds.

That entire set of properties collectively called " the chemistry " of a substance

is the result of the electronic interactions among the electrons in the outer

most " shells " of the atom (think outer layers of an onion skin!). Ionic

compounds

are the easiest to understand, because the various compounded atoms " stick "

together by a simple electrostatic attraction. One of the atoms of the ionic

compound is positively charged because it lost an electron, while its mating

atom or atom group is negatively charged because it picked up an extra electron,

specifically the one lost by its mate. Table salt (sodium chloride or natrious

chloride)

is the most well known example of such an inorganic ionic compound, but there

are literally thousands of other possible combinations among all the atoms

available

in the world. Mercurous chloride would be another germane example of a

poisonous salt of interest to us here.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ When dry, these compounds usually form bulk aggregates called

salt crystals. But when put in aqueous solution (like stirring up a glass of

salt water until the salt disappears), the compound dissociates in a special

way,

unique to aqueous solutions, wherein the positive and negative halves of the

compound " float " around somewhat independently and can interact readily

with other dissolved chemical species. In this form the two dissolved halves

are called " ions " meaning simply that they have an electronic charge. These

ions, called " inorganic mercury " in toxicology or medical writeups are the

culprits that make you sick, because they are what bind to the sulfur and

sulfhydryl groups of your essential life-giving body chemicals rendering them

non-functional, gradually...one molecule at a time.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Pure metallic mercury (the silver-colored stuff in

thermometers)

is not ionic. It has its full complement of electrons and is therefore

electrically

neutral. However, it does not last long in that state once in the bloodstream.

Through the natural metabolic processes in the blood, it is quickly oxidized

(in other words, ionized) to its dangerous inorganic form discussed in the last

paragraph.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Now you're wondering, " When is he going to get to methylation

of mercury? " The above background was necessary to understand its important

differences from other mercury species. The fundamental, simplest " organic "

group in chemistry is the " methyl group. " It's formula is CH4 (the four usually

subscripted as a little number below and to the right of the H). What the CH4

means is that the methyl group is built from a central carbon atom that has

four electron " holes " in its outer onion skin shell that are available to act

like

little hooks to grab other atoms so inclined, In a methyl group (actually

methane

the way I'm describing it) the four " hooks " are occupied by hydrogen atoms,

each of which has one " hook " available to mate with the carbon. Thus, in a

methane molecule so described, all the carbon hooks are utilized, and the

structure is stable. If you could actually see the molecule's physical

appearance,

the large carbon atom is at the center like a sun with the four small hydrogens

uniformly spaced around it like planets.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ In a " methyl group " we have a former methane molecule that

has

lost one of its hydrogens (becoming CH3) and thus has one free hook available

to bind with something else. It can hookup with many things, which is why

methyl groups are so ubiquitously useful in normal metabolism. Unfortunately

mercury fits the bill also, and when an inorganic mercury ion attaches to this

one free hook on a methyl group, it becomes a new molecule called

" methylmercury, " one of the group of species of " organic mercury, " and

the process of getting it there is called " methylation. "

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ then asks: << and this would be bad for us? worse

than regular mercury? Why is it bad? >> Methylmercury, by itself, is not

really dangerous...as long as it stays methylated. The trouble is that this

form of mercury is not very stable in the mammalian body. This is

opposite to the piscine metabolism, in which inorganic mercury species

are naturally methylated and stored harmlessly in the adipose (fat) tissue.

This is why fish bio-accumulate large amounts of methylmercury in their

oils and body fats, AND why they can accumulate large amounts for a

lifetime without suffering ill effects of poisoning: i.e., because the

methylmercury is not dangerous. It acts as a safe storage form for the

fish. Unfortunately for us mammals who eat the fish, our metabolism

does not maintain mercury in its organic methyl form. Our natural

peroxidation process keeps turning it back into the harmful inorganic

species.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ So, " OK Arctic Cat, " you might ask. " Why then are

methylmercury and contanimated fish said to be so dangerous for us? "

It is a derivative danger rather than a direct danger. To understand

methylmercury's danger to mammals, we must take a brief diversion

to explain another chemical principle to which I alluded above in the

discussion of ionic compounds: Solubility.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ The " solubility " of a substance describes whether it

dissolves (and how efficiently it dissolves) in a liquid medium (or solvent).

In the discussion above about inorganic ionic compounds, I mentioned

" aqueous solutions. " Aqueous solutions, as you might well guess, are

solutions in which the solvent is water. Inorganic mercury salts are

water soluble, that is, they dissolve in water. Since the body's fluids

are mostly water, the dissolved mercury solutes can pretty much go

anywhere...invade any tissue. There is one major exception to this

to which I shall devote the following paragraphs.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Another solvent, besides water, which is important in

body chemistry is fat, aka lipid. Solutes which are lipid soluble (fat soluble)

are usually not water soluble, and vice versa. This basic fact of chemistry

is one of the key tools the body's molecular machinery cleverly exploits

to control the passage or rejection of certain compounds across various

membranes. You may, from time to time, hear the words " lipophilic " and

" lipophobic membranes " or " aquaphilic " and " aquaphobic membranes, " the

word suffixes " -philic " and " -phobic " mean " loving " and " hating, " respectively.

A lipophilic membrane, for example will pass a lipid-soluble molecule but

will reject a water-soluble molecule, with varying degrees of efficiency

depending on the exact molecule involved.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ A very important lipophilic membrane in our bodies is

the well-known " blood-brain barrier, " or " BBB " for short. The BBB protects

our brains and central nervous system tissues from a vast array of water-

soluble compounds that permeate the rest of the aqueous body tissues,

but will pass lipid-soluble compounds readily.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Inorganic mercury ions that poison the body tissues and

organs are water soluble and cannot cross the BBB. Thus, though we may

be horribly poisoned by inorganic mercury intake, perhaps even dying of

kidney or liver failure, our brains and CNS tissues are safe from them thanks

to the protection afforded by the lipophilic BBB that rejects the passage

of water-soluble mercury ions.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Unlike inorganic mercury, pure metallic mercury (aka

elemental

mercury), such as you would receive from thermometer breakage or from

dental amalgam is not water soluble but IS lipid soluble. The same is true

of methylated mercury. Thus both metallic mercury and methylmercury can

cross the BBB readily and circulate throughout the brain and CNS.

" But so what, Arctic Cat, " you might fairly ask. " You said methylmercury

is not dangerous. So it will just circulate in and back out

harmlessly...right? "

Well, yes, as long as it stays methylated or elemental. The problem is it

doesn't.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ The natural peroxidation process de-methylates it (or

ionizes the metallic form) continuously as it circulates through the blood.

Since any molecule of methylmercury will be " somewhere " at the moment

it de-methylates, that " somewhere " might be behind the BBB because it

is circulating freely. But remember from above that inorganic mercury

is water soluble, and the BBB is lipophilic. Thus the protective isolation

of our brains by this barrier is clearly a double-edged sword depending

upon which side of the barrier the mercury happens to be when it is

de-methylated or ionized! Once it becomes de-methylated to an inorganic

ion, it is now water soluble and can't re-cross the BBB back out of the

brain. Thus, like a minnow trap, the brain and CNS act as a sealed

repository of inorganic mercury ions that wafted in while they were

either methylated or metallic, became de-methylated or ionized while

inside, and became trapped.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ If you've absorbed and integrated the various inputs from

all the preceding paragraphs, you should now understand why methylated

mercury is generally said to be " more dangerous " than inorganic mercury.

It is always the inorganic mercury that poisons you and makes you sick,

brain or otherwise, but it must be in the methylated form (or metallic form)

to get inside the brain in the first place. If you ingest the toxin as

inorganic

salt from the " get-go, " you will get very sick (perhaps even lethally so), but

your brain is probably safe. You will become ill from other organo-metabolic

failures which may have a hope of clinical intervention and recovery.

On the other hand, if you ingest the toxin as methylmercury or as metallic

atoms (such as from a spill or from amalgam) you are in significantly more

jeopardy, as it is a prudent call to expect that poisoning a brain is " worse "

than poisoning the somatic organs. With methyl-derived or metallic-derived

poisoning involved, you will get sick with psychologic disturbances, memory

problems, confusion, tremors and twitches, body temperature regulation

problems, and multiple endocrine disruption (pituitary poisoning)---classic

Mad Hatter Syndrome. Of course if you get a lethal dose and

die, then it makes no difference, as you're still dead. But that isn't usually

the case, barring an industrial accident. Usually you just get very, very sick

for years and years and have to suffer the ridicule and disrespect of the

medical profession on top of your illness. Time is clearly on your side much

more so if it is merely a case of somatic poisoning rather than the brain

being involved as well.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Then asks: << And where can I click to find a list

of things that methylate mercury (again, if this is a bad thing, which

I think you're saying it is.) >> As you can see from my above lengthy

discussion which barely touches the tip of the iceberg on this topic,

chemistry, and particularly biochemistry, is a very complex subject.

Years and years of college, graduate school, and professional experience

go into fully understanding it. Lifetime careers are built on it. It is

unlikely you will find a neat little repository that lists *everything* that

could methylate mercury. I don't think anyone knows the answer to

that question. Certainly it needs to be a molecule that contains

methyl groups, but that covers a pretty broad territory!! And yes

it's a bad thing if you're mercury toxic.

___,,,^.~.^,,,___ Finally asks: << Or does methylation help

removal of mercury from the brain or from everywhere faster? >>

Methylation allows mercury to cross the BBB. The only thing

it will likely do is deposit MORE mercury inside your brain. You

need a lipid-soluble chelator compound to remove it. Chelators

do not methylate mercury but rather bind it by a different

mechanism, a pair of sulfur-hydrogen bonds that wrap the

molecule in a ring around the metal ion. True chelators bind

the metal tightly and won't drop their payload elsewhere in

your body before you have a chance to drop it in the public

sewer system. Follow Andy's instructions for selecting chelators.

Avoid any weak chelators (those with only single sulfur-hydrogen

groups) or any false chelators like methylators and fluoroquinolone

antibiotics. These things will likely distribute more mercury into

your brain and leave you worse off than you were before.

---Hope this all helps everybody, Arctic Cat

********************************************************************************\

**********************

[ ] Re: Andy's Protocal question - can't find the answer

Meg,

Andy recommends going no shorter than 64 hours as a minumum. Lots

of people start Friday morning and go through to Monday morning to

get 72 hours. Rounds shorter than 64 hours can have negative

consequences over time. If you're asking whether or not to use ALA

in the last couple doses, some people choose to leave the ALA for

these doses with the idea that it may stop some redistribution to

the brain (as ALA crosses the BBB but the others don't). This has

never made sense to me since metals seem to cross the BBB just fine

on their own anyhow so I dose the DMSA/ALA all the way through.

Anita

>

> Hi All,

>

> We began our first round with ALA after 7 months of chelating w/

TD-

> DMPS alone. My question is this:

>

> We started with both ALA & DMPS on Friday @ 8:30 am. Do we end

this

> round on Sunday night with both ALA & DMPS?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Meg (8 yr old twin boys)

>