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Re: Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

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Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist.

administrators smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the

" right " things to make the parents feel that they are really being taken great

care of. Then, when the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators

went straight to how do we get around all the costs of what the parents were

asking for and fit the child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we

explain it in a way that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since

moved to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But

before leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and

other families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate

to give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed

excellent programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what

they were supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings).

However, whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean

never able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen

with numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i

do know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a

better life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a

parent who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope

things work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The

new school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1

aide. (already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside

professionals to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of

the other 5 kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not

going to get her what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please,

explain to me how my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling

hopeless, I assume she is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand

by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your

own difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show

a strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like

" you might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that

this was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate):

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly

looking for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more

successful and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining

a few of these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the

discussion focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems

the ASD population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

autism-awareness-action

ABAplusRDI

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.com

________________________

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004@...> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist.

administrators smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the

" right " things to make the parents feel that they are really being taken great

care of. Then, when the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators

went straight to how do we get around all the costs of what the parents were

asking for and fit the child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we

explain it in a way that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since

moved to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But

before leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and

other families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate

to give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed

excellent programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what

they were supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings).

However, whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean

never able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen

with numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i

do know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a

better life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a

parent who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope

things work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The

new school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1

aide. (already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside

professionals to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of

the other 5 kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not

going to get her what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please,

explain to me how my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling

hopeless, I assume she is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand

by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your

own difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show

a strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like

" you might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that

this was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate):

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly

looking for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more

successful and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining

a few of these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the

discussion focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems

the ASD population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

autism-awareness-action

ABAplusRDI

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.com

________________________

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004@...> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Dear ,

I just jumped in with reading (this) your post you just posted. I've missed

alot of reading post, due to lots of running to get my son to tutors & kids

activities. so, I'm writing to share with you, I did # 6. It was less

stressful than trying to fight the school. I also did research, and checked

different school districts, and even went and visited the schools before I

moved. So far, 4 years later, I'm so glad I did that. That is so true, when

parents go into a CSE meeting by themselves its less successful then going with

an advocate that knows the laws and can catch things the parent can miss.

sometimes, the conversation goes so fast its hard to keep up exspecially when I

get focused on something I want to respond to. That's where the advocate kicks

in. Yes, the school is on a budget and if you don't know " your rights, as a

parent " the school will jump on it. I agree, its best to go with an advocate.

and a parent should take into consideration, if its worth

the battle - attorney fees, and the child losing out on lots of support, until

there is an agreement. or check out other schools and relocate???

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate):

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

autism-awareness-action

ABAplusRDI

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.com

________________________

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004@...> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

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Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Wow, great job..I am advocating and educating the school my child is currently

in because some of the programs they need for these kids they don't have and my

child as had these programs in the past. The school here is more then willing to

work with me on a joint team effort to get things in place for all of these

children.

Rose <beachbodytan2002@...> wrote: Dear ,

I just jumped in with reading (this) your post you just posted. I've missed alot

of reading post, due to lots of running to get my son to tutors & kids

activities. so, I'm writing to share with you, I did # 6. It was less stressful

than trying to fight the school. I also did research, and checked different

school districts, and even went and visited the schools before I moved. So far,

4 years later, I'm so glad I did that. That is so true, when parents go into a

CSE meeting by themselves its less successful then going with an advocate that

knows the laws and can catch things the parent can miss. sometimes, the

conversation goes so fast its hard to keep up exspecially when I get focused on

something I want to respond to. That's where the advocate kicks in. Yes, the

school is on a budget and if you don't know " your rights, as a parent " the

school will jump on it. I agree, its best to go with an advocate. and a parent

should take into consideration, if its worth

the battle - attorney fees, and the child losing out on lots of support, until

there is an agreement. or check out other schools and relocate???

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate):

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

autism-awareness-action

ABAplusRDI

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.com

________________________

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004@...> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Dear ,

I for one was shocked at Kirsten's email and have been reading the thread (not

really something I have time for this morning) to see what could have provoked

it. I am glad you are defending yourself here instead of just leaving.

I for one have gone through a process of having a district screw us over -- we

fought it, we hired a lawyer (couldn't afford it but HAD to), got what we

requested on paper (an aide), got the Functional Behavior Analysis we requested

for months and which they avoided and refused and claimed was unnecessary until

the lawyer got involved, and it worked and the consultant got to include us in

her book, but did our son really benefit? He learned to stop acting out but we

felt everything else we had hoped for from an inclusion setting was impossible

because they just didn't get it -- how to help him use his strengths, how to

learn to interact with the other kids -- precious time (1st-3rd grades are so

important socially) was lost -- no matter how many times we tried to explain to

them what he needed and no matter how many times they seemed to agree they JUST

COULDN'T DO IT. They didn't know how nad they weren't up to it anyway. So we

left the city entirely -- if that

opportunity hadn't come up we would have created it. We moved to another city

and this one may or may not be the right thing -- here he's in a special school

we think might be TOO removed from the mainstream, so we might move again. Not

all kids are devastated by transitions -- our son loves the new city, and he's

improved in many ways from the stimulation.

I think you are trying to help, and the parent who wrote in asked for all

thoughts on the situation, and I think Kirsten must have misread and/or

misunderstood your answer. I for one appreciate the energy that goes into an

answer like 's, because it is such a difficult topic to respond to -- no

one can possibly give Luz the right answer, but the more input and information

and thinking available, the easier to sort and figure what's right for him.

A bystander to this discussion,

Robin <rckc23@...> wrote:

Wow, great job..I am advocating and educating the school my child is

currently in because some of the programs they need for these kids they don't

have and my child as had these programs in the past. The school here is more

then willing to work with me on a joint team effort to get things in place for

all of these children.

Rose <beachbodytan2002@...> wrote: Dear ,

I just jumped in with reading (this) your post you just posted. I've missed alot

of reading post, due to lots of running to get my son to tutors & kids

activities. so, I'm writing to share with you, I did # 6. It was less stressful

than trying to fight the school. I also did research, and checked different

school districts, and even went and visited the schools before I moved. So far,

4 years later, I'm so glad I did that. That is so true, when parents go into a

CSE meeting by themselves its less successful then going with an advocate that

knows the laws and can catch things the parent can miss. sometimes, the

conversation goes so fast its hard to keep up exspecially when I get focused on

something I want to respond to. That's where the advocate kicks in. Yes, the

school is on a budget and if you don't know " your rights, as a parent " the

school will jump on it. I agree, its best to go with an advocate. and a parent

should take into consideration, if its worth

the battle - attorney fees, and the child losing out on lots of support, until

there is an agreement. or check out other schools and relocate???

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate):

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

autism-awareness-action

ABAplusRDI

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.com

________________________

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004@...> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Lenore,

I also agree, and I do hope continues to stay with us. He has great

information, I read his whole post... (, I hope to read more of your

post.) -Rose

therealgnu <lenoreboyle@...> wrote:

,

This was one of the best emails I have ever read on this site. I only

wish you were a close friend of mine to help me take on my school system

with my " gloves " on.

Encore.

Lenore

Hi Luz,

>

> I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many

others in our community, you have done everything you can to give your

child the best opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the

school system is set up like an ocean, sending wave after wave of

professional whose only job it seems is to erode your resolve and get

you to give in to less costly and effective supports. .......

>

> With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a

parent giving advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of

children or family members of people with AS not professionals who want

to give their 2 bits.

>

> If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after

wave " ...then what is moving going to accomplish??

>

> If you read this parents post you would see that they have already

moved once to get services for their child, to suggest they move again

is like asking someone to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to

say the least. To get the schools to do what they should to provide for

these kids is what we need, to get parents motivated to make system

change is what we need, to get parents to continually move is not what

we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To

suggest they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

>

> I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this

site if you are not a person with or family member of someone on the

spectrum. I hope that you can give better advice to those in your care

--or have they all moved to another district--if that is the case then

you may not be in business much longer. You obviously need more training

in this area and hopefully you can find it.

>

> I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to

another site and block your comments.

>

> Regards,

> Kirsten Hargis

>

> ---------------------------------

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>

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Posted
Posted

<<For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly

looking for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more

successful and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining

a few of these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the

discussion focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems

the ASD population is faced with and not just covering them up.

>>

Actually, I don't feel that we fail to offer real world advice to fix problems.

I know I don't consider my opinions as " covering up " problems. I think we offer

a variety of experiences here. And people can then pick out what works for them

or makes sense to them. So saying this is the " status quo " because one or two

people criticized you doesn't mean a list of 2,000 is so tainted as to be

described in a limited way. People here are allowed to say what they think as

long as they don't flame. People who do flame are moderated. I've actually

said everything you put in your email many times before as have others.

Sometimes it takes me longer to get to emails - maybe other moderators are

faster, I don't know! But that's just the way it is here. Patience is a

virtue. <g> We pace ourselves.

As for running to the moderator, nobody really does that. lol. Do they run to

you Pam? I get maybe one email a year privately requesting help with a list

problem on average. The rest of the emails are people wanting to change their

subscription somehow or unsubscribe. I realize lately we've had a few emails

asking the moderator to do something but that doesn't mean we actually do

anything. People can always ask, that is what we are here for. But Pam and I

are pretty much self-starters anyway. If it a flame, I will change settings on

that individual person's posts as soon as I see it whether anyone asks me to or

not. I don't " do " requests really. Unless it is a good one and I missed

something. But I know letting people talk and discuss is the best way to

understanding. As long as that is happening, we are good to go here.

I realize that the post response to yours was a flame but I wouldn't ask people

to leave our list based on one person's post. I've been on other lists and am

on other lists and I can't say that others are better than we are or worse.

Some people actually like our slower style and we eliminate a lot of ads and

people who just sub to start flame wars. And we have nice people as well. At

least, I think so!

Hope that helps explain - we are always going to get people who give 'bad'

advice and usually there are plenty of responses to counter those anyway. What

works usually sifts it's way to the top of the pile in the end, without a lot of

help by any moderators.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since

moved to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But

before leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and

other families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate

to give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed

excellent programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they

were supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings).

However, whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean

never able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen

with numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i

do know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a

better life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a

parent who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope

things work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The

new school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1

aide. (already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside

professionals to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of

the other 5 kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not

going to get her what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please,

explain to me how my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling

hopeless, I assume she is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your

own difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show

a strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like

" you might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that

this was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate):

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly

looking for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more

successful and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining

a few of these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the

discussion focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems

the ASD population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

autism-awareness-action

ABAplusRDI

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.com

________________________

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004@...> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others

in our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent

giving advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or

family members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2

bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what

is moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once

to get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking

someone to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the

schools to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get

parents motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to

continually move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the

spectrum have a difficult time with change and you of all people should know

that. To suggest they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site

and block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters,

Associates. Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi Roxanna,

Please understand, that I did not ask anyone to leave your list, only offered

other lists options in addition to broaden ones perspective. In both emails

that I mentioned other lists, I always stated (in addition to staying on this

one). Secondly, my comment on covering up problems instead of addressing them

was not in reference to the group as a whole (particularly not to you Roxanna as

you have been offering excellent advice in my humble opinion) but to the few

emails that were sent directly in regards to my attempts to offer teaching

advice.

Finally, my experience so far has been that out of about 10 to 15 emails or so

that I have sent, I have already been asked twice by two different people to be

shunned from the list. Simply because I am not a parent or that I don't find

the traditional approach of " accomodate and medicate " to be in a child's best

interest until motivation and reinforcement procedures have been attempted

first.

I did not mean any disrespect to the group as a whole and even said that I was

only refering to a " moral minority " that I felt had taken rather basic benign

posts about teaching ideas and advice and responded with personal attacks and

calls to the moderator.

After getting 's email, I felt like just writing the group off and moving

on. But, I have recieved dozens of emails public and private asking me to

remain. And with your permission, I would like to.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.de

________________________

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen

with numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Yeah, !!!! " Glad you are staying " . you can give me (teaching) advice

anytime, and I would appreciate it. Happy thanksgiving- Rose, Mom of a 10 year

old AS boy....

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote: Hi Roxanna,

Please understand, that I did not ask anyone to leave your list, only offered

other lists options in addition to broaden ones perspective. In both emails that

I mentioned other lists, I always stated (in addition to staying on this one).

Secondly, my comment on covering up problems instead of addressing them was not

in reference to the group as a whole (particularly not to you Roxanna as you

have been offering excellent advice in my humble opinion) but to the few emails

that were sent directly in regards to my attempts to offer teaching advice.

Finally, my experience so far has been that out of about 10 to 15 emails or so

that I have sent, I have already been asked twice by two different people to be

shunned from the list. Simply because I am not a parent or that I don't find the

traditional approach of " accomodate and medicate " to be in a child's best

interest until motivation and reinforcement procedures have been attempted

first.

I did not mean any disrespect to the group as a whole and even said that I was

only refering to a " moral minority " that I felt had taken rather basic benign

posts about teaching ideas and advice and responded with personal attacks and

calls to the moderator.

After getting 's email, I felt like just writing the group off and moving

on. But, I have recieved dozens of emails public and private asking me to

remain. And with your permission, I would like to.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.de

________________________

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Me too! I really appreciate yours as well as everyone's advise and different

point of views. It would be hard to reach our own conclusions and make our own

decisions without everyone's different opionions!! Please stick around !

Rose <beachbodytan2002@...> wrote: Yeah, !!!! " Glad you are

staying " . you can give me (teaching) advice anytime, and I would appreciate it.

Happy thanksgiving- Rose, Mom of a 10 year old AS boy....

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote: Hi Roxanna,

Please understand, that I did not ask anyone to leave your list, only offered

other lists options in addition to broaden ones perspective. In both emails that

I mentioned other lists, I always stated (in addition to staying on this one).

Secondly, my comment on covering up problems instead of addressing them was not

in reference to the group as a whole (particularly not to you Roxanna as you

have been offering excellent advice in my humble opinion) but to the few emails

that were sent directly in regards to my attempts to offer teaching advice.

Finally, my experience so far has been that out of about 10 to 15 emails or so

that I have sent, I have already been asked twice by two different people to be

shunned from the list. Simply because I am not a parent or that I don't find the

traditional approach of " accomodate and medicate " to be in a child's best

interest until motivation and reinforcement procedures have been attempted

first.

I did not mean any disrespect to the group as a whole and even said that I was

only refering to a " moral minority " that I felt had taken rather basic benign

posts about teaching ideas and advice and responded with personal attacks and

calls to the moderator.

After getting 's email, I felt like just writing the group off and moving

on. But, I have recieved dozens of emails public and private asking me to

remain. And with your permission, I would like to.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.de

________________________

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

I know this post was not sent to me directly and I am sure you are wonderful in

your field of expertise.

I just have to make a point to you , and follow up on Roxanna's point.

I am a parent of a child who has AS, I can tell you how difficult and

emotional

it is to even admit there is a problem with your child, let alone someone

telling

you, that you are not doing the right thing. I am a single parent who works

full time and I take him to (2) therapies a week, which I can't afford.

Some of my co-workers make comments about my coming in late....and I feel

guilty about that, and I feel guilty about not spending enough time with him.

You talk as if we choose not to face our difficulties or do the right thing.

Our " covering up " as you call it imho, is us trying the best we can, to give

our kids a fighting chance.

BTW, Roxanna helped me in the very beginning to face my denial....she does a

excellent job of being honest as well as sympathetic....(you might try being

more sympathetic and less judgemental)....that's my 2 cents.

Kim (mother of 5, AS, ADHD, dysgraphia, anxiety)

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Hi Roxanna,

Please understand, that I did not ask anyone to leave your list, only offered

other lists options in addition to broaden ones perspective. In both emails that

I mentioned other lists, I always stated (in addition to staying on this one).

Secondly, my comment on covering up problems instead of addressing them was not

in reference to the group as a whole (particularly not to you Roxanna as you

have been offering excellent advice in my humble opinion) but to the few emails

that were sent directly in regards to my attempts to offer teaching advice.

Finally, my experience so far has been that out of about 10 to 15 emails or so

that I have sent, I have already been asked twice by two different people to be

shunned from the list. Simply because I am not a parent or that I don't find the

traditional approach of " accomodate and medicate " to be in a child's best

interest until motivation and reinforcement procedures have been attempted

first.

I did not mean any disrespect to the group as a whole and even said that I was

only refering to a " moral minority " that I felt had taken rather basic benign

posts about teaching ideas and advice and responded with personal attacks and

calls to the moderator.

After getting 's email, I felt like just writing the group off and moving

on. But, I have recieved dozens of emails public and private asking me to

remain. And with your permission, I would like to.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.de

________________________

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi Kim,

If I came off as judgemental at all I apologize. I honestly hold my parents

and the work they do and the life difficulties they have to deal with in the

highest regard. I guess, I just got a little frustrated when I offered some

advice that I thought was valid and useful and felt attacked for doing it. If

anything, I think I was behaving more defensively than anything else. But again,

please understand that my motives truly are to help more kids get best education

out there.

kim hibbs <seanhibbs0112@...> wrote:

I know this post was not sent to me directly and I am sure you are

wonderful in

your field of expertise.

I just have to make a point to you , and follow up on Roxanna's point.

I am a parent of a child who has AS, I can tell you how difficult and emotional

it is to even admit there is a problem with your child, let alone someone

telling

you, that you are not doing the right thing. I am a single parent who works

full time and I take him to (2) therapies a week, which I can't afford.

Some of my co-workers make comments about my coming in late....and I feel

guilty about that, and I feel guilty about not spending enough time with him.

You talk as if we choose not to face our difficulties or do the right thing.

Our " covering up " as you call it imho, is us trying the best we can, to give

our kids a fighting chance.

BTW, Roxanna helped me in the very beginning to face my denial....she does a

excellent job of being honest as well as sympathetic....(you might try being

more sympathetic and less judgemental)....that's my 2 cents.

Kim (mother of 5, AS, ADHD, dysgraphia, anxiety)

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Hi Roxanna,

Please understand, that I did not ask anyone to leave your list, only offered

other lists options in addition to broaden ones perspective. In both emails that

I mentioned other lists, I always stated (in addition to staying on this one).

Secondly, my comment on covering up problems instead of addressing them was not

in reference to the group as a whole (particularly not to you Roxanna as you

have been offering excellent advice in my humble opinion) but to the few emails

that were sent directly in regards to my attempts to offer teaching advice.

Finally, my experience so far has been that out of about 10 to 15 emails or so

that I have sent, I have already been asked twice by two different people to be

shunned from the list. Simply because I am not a parent or that I don't find the

traditional approach of " accomodate and medicate " to be in a child's best

interest until motivation and reinforcement procedures have been attempted

first.

I did not mean any disrespect to the group as a whole and even said that I was

only refering to a " moral minority " that I felt had taken rather basic benign

posts about teaching ideas and advice and responded with personal attacks and

calls to the moderator.

After getting 's email, I felt like just writing the group off and moving

on. But, I have recieved dozens of emails public and private asking me to

remain. And with your permission, I would like to.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.de

________________________

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Oh yes, please do stay ! I enjoy reading your emails very much. I just

don't want you to think we as a group are not nice because of a few posts. That

really doesn't happen hardly at all on this list. I even was wondering if you

brought critics with you, lol. Or maybe they know you from another list??? We

just seldom have problems like that here, although I guess we are overdue for

something. Just realize that because people yell for the moderators to do

something, we don't rush out and do anything. <g> We are way over-rated. lol.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since

moved to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But

before leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and

other families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate

to give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed

excellent programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they

were supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings).

However, whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean

never able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen

with numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i

do know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a

better life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a

parent who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope

things work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The

new school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1

aide. (already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside

professionals to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of

the other 5 kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not

going to get her what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please,

explain to me how my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling

hopeless, I assume she is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your

own difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show

a strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like

" you might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that

this was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly

looking for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more

successful and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining

a few of these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the

discussion focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems

the ASD population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others

in our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent

giving advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or

family members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2

bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what

is moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once

to get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking

someone to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the

schools to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get

parents motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to

continually move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the

spectrum have a difficult time with change and you of all people should know

that. To suggest they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site

and block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters,

Associates. Top schools

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

,

I didn't weigh in on this when I read it because I wasn't here when it happened.

I do, however, have my own take on these flamings, as we all do.

Your contributions here far outweigh the rash, knee-jerk re-action of one person

at one point in time. We all do that from time-to-time. The difference between a

reaction and a response is that a response is thought out.

I'm not saying this to bash Kirsten in any way. Perhaps she just needed to vent

and you were handy. In my short time on this planet I have learned something

about being the target of someone's vent. If your input didn't have merit, no

one would take the time to respond to it. Either that or it was just an

emotional reaction, which doesn't effect you in the big picture.

Keep coming back, and be joyful in the face of trials.

Cheers, Dave

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since

moved to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But

before leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and

other families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate

to give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed

excellent programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they

were supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings).

However, whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean

never able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen

with numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i

do know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a

better life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a

parent who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope

things work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The

new school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1

aide. (already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside

professionals to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of

the other 5 kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not

going to get her what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please,

explain to me how my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling

hopeless, I assume she is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your

own difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show

a strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like

" you might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that

this was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly

looking for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more

successful and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining

a few of these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the

discussion focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems

the ASD population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others

in our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent

giving advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or

family members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2

bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what

is moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once

to get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking

someone to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the

schools to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get

parents motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to

continually move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the

spectrum have a difficult time with change and you of all people should know

that. To suggest they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site

and block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters,

Associates. Top schools

  • 3 weeks later...
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

I apologize , it has been very difficult for me and I sometimes overreact.

It is

impossible to tell everyone around us how we feel and I think some of that got

transferred to you. Thank you for taking the time to write me and I know it

has been

a long time, but I have been extremely busy. In case you would like to know a

little about

my DS, he is almost 6 and in Kinder, he has been dx w/ adhd, dysgraphia,

pragmatic

language disorder and Asperger Tendencies, also he has Sensory issues. We

finally

had our school child study and he has qualified for services, so I can stop

taking him to

outside services if I need to. It is something I need to think about, he

seems to be

responding well to the OT, but not so much with speech. He is learning,

however

he doesn't do very well with the Therapist. I have done a lot of research on

my own and

definitely think he has AS and NOT adhd, I get frustrated with the Dr.s and

some

peoples opinion, not to " label " him. God knows I would not choose for my ds

to have

AS, but I want him DX so he can get all the help he needs. I am sorry I am

rambling

and again any advice you can give me would be appreciated.

Kim

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Hi Kim,

If I came off as judgemental at all I apologize. I honestly hold my parents and

the work they do and the life difficulties they have to deal with in the highest

regard. I guess, I just got a little frustrated when I offered some advice that

I thought was valid and useful and felt attacked for doing it. If anything, I

think I was behaving more defensively than anything else. But again, please

understand that my motives truly are to help more kids get best education out

there.

kim hibbs <seanhibbs0112@...> wrote:

I know this post was not sent to me directly and I am sure you are wonderful in

your field of expertise.

I just have to make a point to you , and follow up on Roxanna's point.

I am a parent of a child who has AS, I can tell you how difficult and emotional

it is to even admit there is a problem with your child, let alone someone

telling

you, that you are not doing the right thing. I am a single parent who works

full time and I take him to (2) therapies a week, which I can't afford.

Some of my co-workers make comments about my coming in late....and I feel

guilty about that, and I feel guilty about not spending enough time with him.

You talk as if we choose not to face our difficulties or do the right thing.

Our " covering up " as you call it imho, is us trying the best we can, to give

our kids a fighting chance.

BTW, Roxanna helped me in the very beginning to face my denial....she does a

excellent job of being honest as well as sympathetic....(you might try being

more sympathetic and less judgemental)....that's my 2 cents.

Kim (mother of 5, AS, ADHD, dysgraphia, anxiety)

Schramm <knospeaba_robert@...> wrote:

Hi Roxanna,

Please understand, that I did not ask anyone to leave your list, only offered

other lists options in addition to broaden ones perspective. In both emails that

I mentioned other lists, I always stated (in addition to staying on this one).

Secondly, my comment on covering up problems instead of addressing them was not

in reference to the group as a whole (particularly not to you Roxanna as you

have been offering excellent advice in my humble opinion) but to the few emails

that were sent directly in regards to my attempts to offer teaching advice.

Finally, my experience so far has been that out of about 10 to 15 emails or so

that I have sent, I have already been asked twice by two different people to be

shunned from the list. Simply because I am not a parent or that I don't find the

traditional approach of " accomodate and medicate " to be in a child's best

interest until motivation and reinforcement procedures have been attempted

first.

I did not mean any disrespect to the group as a whole and even said that I was

only refering to a " moral minority " that I felt had taken rather basic benign

posts about teaching ideas and advice and responded with personal attacks and

calls to the moderator.

After getting 's email, I felt like just writing the group off and moving

on. But, I have recieved dozens of emails public and private asking me to

remain. And with your permission, I would like to.

________________________

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba.de

________________________

Re: ( ) Re: Feeling Hopeless and (Kirsten's flame out)

Dear Luz,

I stand by my advice to find some in home behavioral help, get a special ed.

advocate and stand up for your child's rights. This following email is not

written for you but is in response to 's unprovoked and rather surprising

attack on my email. Feel free to read it if you want but do not let the tone of

's email or this response affect your current emotional state while you

are trying to get through a tough time. These emails have nothing to do with you

but deal more with others opinions on who should be allowed to offer help and

advice.

Kirsten,

Please tell me you are kidding me? I offered a caring email with at least a

dozen questions about things Luz can do to stand up for her child's rights and

because the last question deals with the idea of seeing if there might be a

better district option, I deserve the flaming email of death you just sent to

me? Disagreeing with one point of an email is one thing but to flame on me like

that is more destructive to these groups than anything I could have written.

In the late 90's I worked as an Inclusion specialist for 4 years for what was

supposed to be one of the most advanced special education school districts in

the state. I sat through IEP after IEP where Principals and dist. administrators

smiled their way through 5 hour IEP meetings saying all the " right " things to

make the parents feel that they are really being taken great care of. Then, when

the meeting was over, the focus of these administrators went straight to how do

we get around all the costs of what the parents were asking for and fit the

child into the constraints of the system. Then how can we explain it in a way

that the parents will accept.

I have seen first hand in several schools and districts that when families try

to fight for their child's rights alone they are often battered with wave after

wave of explaination or excuse of what the school couldn't do, didn't have to

do, or wouldn't do. (most of this was legally not true).

Since leaving the public school system for this very reason, I have since moved

to Germany and am now running a behavioral intervention institute. But before

leaving the states I donated lots of time helping several freinds and other

families at no charge by going to their IEP meetings as a family advocate to

give the family the inside scoop behind what the school was trying to do with

their children.

When schools were doing what they were responsible to do, we developed excellent

programs for these children. When schools did not want to do what they were

supposed to, they were often forced to (through due process hearings). However,

whenever parents went to IEP meetings alone they were never and I mean never

able to get the best of what was available for their child's education.

So what was my advice that you have taken such strong exception to?

1. Be sure that the school is living up to their responsibilities?

2. Don't take no for an answer if they are not?

3. Find someone who can go to bat for you so that you are not outnumbered and

alone in a big IEP room filled with specialists who are on the districts

payroll?

4. Bind together with the other families so that you can make change happen with

numbers.?

5. And if you still cannot find a way to help your child to stop being

aggressive in school and losing ground behaviorally and academically consider

finding outside help in the home?

6. Or was it just the final idea that said if necessary consider moving again

(but do more research first about where you go so that you can be sure to find a

school that is truly willing to work with you to your child's betterment)?

To answer your rather trite question, Yes, I did read the entire email and i do

know that she sold a house and moved to a new school with the hope of a better

life for her child. I applaud that resolve and see that as evidence of a parent

who is strong enough to continue to do whatever it takes. I truly hope things

work out for Luz in a positive and productive way with her new school but

unfortunately according to her email the indications are that the school is not

going to just hand over what she needs unless she finds some help and pushes for

it. Instead of thinking " oh what a shame it is that she might have to consider

moving again " , try thinking about what a shame it would be if she went through

all that time and effort to sell her house and move and it was all completely in

vain because now she finds herself in a situation that is causing her child to

be losing even more ground.

Matching the tone of your email, I have to ask, Did you read her email? The new

school has already lied to her. They told her that she would have a 2 to 1 aide.

(already less than she could have gotten if her child might demonstrate

agressive behavior). But even worse, she now finds out that the aide is split

amongst 5 children in an inclusive class placement. Not only is 5-1 aide support

unacceptable, it is not even an inclusion setting. Unless the class has 50 kids

in it, 5 kids with disabilities is not inclusion it is integration (another

thing that a good advocate could have assurred against). Like she said in her

email the problem with integrated classes is that the teachers are overworked

and often understaffed. Actual Inclusion setting classrooms are not supposed to

have a higher disabled to typical ratio than the regular population (about 10%).

However, parents who don't know this are often pushed into these situations so

that the school can save money on aids

(apparently what is happening in this case). Additionally, Luz is being told

that " no behavior plan can help her child " (a statement which would be laughed

out of any due process hearing in any state of the union).

My email suggested that she find support systems, perhaps outside professionals

to work with and bring to her IEP's, consult with the parents of the other 5

kids and fight for her child's rights. And if this is still not going to get her

what she needs, consider finding a better school. So please, explain to me how

my email was in any way inappropriate? If Luz is feeling hopeless, I assume she

is looking for advice. Something I gave her and stand by.

You might not be in agreement with me for whatever reason or are having your own

difficulties at this time, but instead of flaming on me, maybe we could talk

about the advice you gave her... Let me look back at your email, Oh wait, you

were to busy railing my advice to offer any of your own. I am sure Luz

appreciated the hour it took you to put me down much more than the hour I spent

offering her things to think about that might help.

Yes, I am very aware that children with AS are not comfortable and often show a

strong aversion to transition and change but considering the alternative of

being pushed into an educational placement that is motivating and reinforcing

her daughters continued use of agressive behavior, I would rather transition one

more time (if necessary) rather than spending the next 10 years trying to put

bandaids on a severed artery. (Which is unfortunately what many people are

forced through lack of information and support to do). Luz needs to inform

herself on the best available educative programs and techniques, as well as the

laws in her states, then figure out what her daughter needs and if necessary

fight to get it. I thought that is what she was asking for help with in her

email and I thought that was what I was trying to offer.

My biggest problem (not with this group in general but with some of the most

vocal members) is that they seem to be willing to accept the unacceptable for

kids who need to be stood up for and try to convince others to do the same. Then

when someone offers a differing opinion, it is run to the moderator and get this

guy off of here. Didn't you hear him? the blasphemer said the world was not

flat. We can't have him spreading these kinds of unsubstantiated rumors, people

will sail off in their boats and unwittingly fall off the edge!

Congrats Kirsten, because of one line in my email that said something like " you

might even have to consider going to a different school " and decided that this

was enough reason to publicly blast me, I am going to leave this group. Not

because it wasn't informative or beneficial but because of the tight grip that a

moral minority seems to be holding over the type of information that should be

shared.

With the permission of Roxanne and the other moderators of this group I would

like to add the following (edit this out of my email if you do not feel it is

appropriate) :

For those of you who are not satisfied with the status quo and are truly looking

for comprehensive answers and strategies designed to make life more successful

and socially meaningful to your kids with AS, please consider joining a few of

these other groups (in addition to staying here of course) where the discussion

focuses more on offering real world advice meant to fix the problems the ASD

population is faced with and not just covering them up.

The groups are

Verbalbehavior

@groups .com

autism-awareness- action@grou ps.com

ABAplusRDI@gro ups.com

abatherapyontario

I wish you all the very best. Try hard not to settle for less.

____________ _________ ___

Schramm, MA, BCBA

www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba

www.knospe-aba. com

____________ _________ ___

Kirsten Hargis <k_hargis2004> wrote:

wrote: Hi Luz,

I truly sympathize with your situation. It sounds to me that like many others in

our community, you have done everything you can to give your child the best

opportunity to succeed. But, as is often the case, the school system is set up

like an ocean, sending wave after wave of professional whose only job it seems

is to erode your resolve and get you to give in to less costly and effective

supports. .......

With all due respect, , you sound like a professional not a parent giving

advice. I thought this was a support group for parents of children or family

members of people with AS not professionals who want to give their 2 bits.

If " this system is like a an ocean that is like wave after wave " ...then what is

moving going to accomplish??

If you read this parents post you would see that they have already moved once to

get services for their child, to suggest they move again is like asking someone

to chase a ghost or a bee bee in a box car--to say the least. To get the schools

to do what they should to provide for these kids is what we need, to get parents

motivated to make system change is what we need, to get parents to continually

move is not what we need. This is a child who like others on the spectrum have a

difficult time with change and you of all people should know that. To suggest

they should move again is not only obsurd but infuriating.

I think you need to re-think some of your suggestions and get off this site if

you are not a person with or family member of someone on the spectrum. I hope

that you can give better advice to those in your care --or have they all moved

to another district--if that is the case then you may not be in business much

longer. You obviously need more training in this area and hopefully you can find

it.

I also hope a moderator of this site will ask you to move on to another site and

block your comments.

Regards,

Kirsten Hargis

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sponsored Link

Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates.

Top schools

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