Re: Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

[Guest guest]

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

> love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

> there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

> negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

>

I should state that much of my worldview has been influenced by

twelve-step program's like Al-Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics. I

also used to attend regular Al-Anon meetings, and heard many stories

from mothers and fathers regarding the children they have loved and

raised, and sure enough there were probably many reasons their

children drank, and there were undoubtedly reasons why such children

lacked the motivation to stop drinking. But once that " child " was of

an adult age and continued to act irresponsibly, sometimes it took

some very tough measures to motivate them to change. You can

psychoanalyze such children all you like, but it won't make a

difference.

When I worked as property manager for a subsidized housing project for

the mentally, I used to encounter the same argument from social

workers fighting my eviction proceedings. I would have a tenant who

might have taken his spent his or her SSI check on liquor rather than

paying the rent, who might have vandalized the property and assaulted

the fellow tenants...and their social workers would plead that he or

she needs to be " understood " more. But all the " understanding " in the

world didn't stop them breaking the rules and being a threat to the

other tenants.

I didn't start out that way when I took on that job, but when I left I

had the firm conviction that if you are a bipolar or schizophrenic

adult and want to enjoy the advantages of being a free citizen, then

you must be held accountable for your behavior and face consequences

for breaking social contracts. My own experience taught me that the

more a mentally ill person faced such consequences, the more grounded

and less " insane " he or she tended to be.

And I believe the same applies to adults with Asperger's or other

forms of autism. And I repeat, I am talking about ADULTS, not six

year-olds. If an adult with Asperger's can't behave responsibly, then

they shouldn't be granted the priviledges of a free citizen. Most

likely they should remain in a supervised, monitored setting. But

don't expect to change them until they want to change, no matter what

their development history is like.

Rick

[Guest guest]

But Asperger's is a neurodevelopmental disorder...alcoholism is an

addiction. Pam

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/15/2006 6:25:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rick.segreda@... writes:

Making excuses and enabling destructive behavior in an adult child with

Asperger's is not a loving action. It is quite the opposite.

Rick, I think we are talking about different things here. I'm not saying

that an adult child (even with Asperger's) should be " getting away " with

anything, especially destructive or abusive behavior, but I do believe a parent

of a

child with Asperger's has the responsibility of making sure that every

support/service possible is made available and working with their child (even

adult child), not just kicking them out the door when things get difficult.

Parenting a child with a disability (especially an adult child) is not an easy

task for families. I'm not sure your comments are coming from that of the

parent perspective and in my opinion they seem harsh . Pam

[Guest guest]

I have Asperger's -- big time Asperger's, severe Asperger's -- but because I

want to live as a free citizen, and not sacrifice my freedom to live under

supervised care, I think that I should be held accountable to any

destructive or hurtful actions I may commit and face the consequences.

Making excuses and enabling destructive behavior in an adult child with

Asperger's is not a loving action. It is quite the opposite.

Rick

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> But Asperger's is a neurodevelopmental disorder...alcoholism is an

> addiction. Pam

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rick,

You do make lots of sense. but, what if they do want to change but can't?

Like a person who want to stop smoking, and no matter how hard they try, go to

many support groups, but that something will be a " trigger " that makes them pick

up and smoke again. same with dieters. If a person wants to change and can't,

what then? What if the parents cant afford the services that child needs?

Rick Segreda <rick.segreda@...> wrote:

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

> love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

> there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

> negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

>

I should state that much of my worldview has been influenced by

twelve-step program's like Al-Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics. I

also used to attend regular Al-Anon meetings, and heard many stories

from mothers and fathers regarding the children they have loved and

raised, and sure enough there were probably many reasons their

children drank, and there were undoubtedly reasons why such children

lacked the motivation to stop drinking. But once that " child " was of

an adult age and continued to act irresponsibly, sometimes it took

some very tough measures to motivate them to change. You can

psychoanalyze such children all you like, but it won't make a

difference.

When I worked as property manager for a subsidized housing project for

the mentally, I used to encounter the same argument from social

workers fighting my eviction proceedings. I would have a tenant who

might have taken his spent his or her SSI check on liquor rather than

paying the rent, who might have vandalized the property and assaulted

the fellow tenants...and their social workers would plead that he or

she needs to be " understood " more. But all the " understanding " in the

world didn't stop them breaking the rules and being a threat to the

other tenants.

I didn't start out that way when I took on that job, but when I left I

had the firm conviction that if you are a bipolar or schizophrenic

adult and want to enjoy the advantages of being a free citizen, then

you must be held accountable for your behavior and face consequences

for breaking social contracts. My own experience taught me that the

more a mentally ill person faced such consequences, the more grounded

and less " insane " he or she tended to be.

And I believe the same applies to adults with Asperger's or other

forms of autism. And I repeat, I am talking about ADULTS, not six

year-olds. If an adult with Asperger's can't behave responsibly, then

they shouldn't be granted the priviledges of a free citizen. Most

likely they should remain in a supervised, monitored setting. But

don't expect to change them until they want to change, no matter what

their development history is like.

Rick

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

Hi Rick,

what about the people that can't make that decision, nor are aware of the

consequences.

Rick Segreda <rick.segreda@...> wrote:

I have Asperger's -- big time Asperger's, severe Asperger's -- but

because I

want to live as a free citizen, and not sacrifice my freedom to live under

supervised care, I think that I should be held accountable to any

destructive or hurtful actions I may commit and face the consequences.

Making excuses and enabling destructive behavior in an adult child with

Asperger's is not a loving action. It is quite the opposite.

Rick

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> But Asperger's is a neurodevelopmental disorder...alcoholism is an

> addiction. Pam

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 8/15/06, Rose <beachbodytan2002@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi Rick,

> You do make lots of sense. but, what if they do want to change but can't?

Like a person who want to stop smoking, and no matter how hard they try, go to

many support groups, but that something will be a " trigger " that makes them pick

up and smoke again. same with dieters. If a person wants to change and can't,

what then? What if the parents cant afford the services that child needs?

>

Regarding addictions, I say this as a veteran of lots of twevle-step

groups, and as a former social worker, I have never meant anyone who

wasn't motivated enough to quit an addiction. That is what it comes

down to: how strongly do you want to change?

So again, lets make a clear distinction between an adult and a child.

I have known many people who have pulled themselves out of the worst

situations, but the thing is that they deep down they really wanted to

get better, it wasn't merely a matter of convincing everybody around

of them of that -- and addicts can be brilliant con artists.

I have had some excruciating struggles as a result of my own

Asperger's, which was undiagnosed for a long time. I have been

homeless and destitute, frequently unemployed, and often having to

resort to the worst jobs imaginable to survive. But all along I never

tried to make a fragile or difficult situation even worse. I didn't

steal, I didn't swindle, I didn't lie, and I didn't carry a cockily

punk attitude acting as if I could do what I want at any given time. I

might have done things in my life that were outright weird by

conventional standards, but I knew enough not to hurt or take

advantage of individuals. I had a conscience, which is one reason I

also had many people willing to help me through difficult times.

Having or not having a conscience has nothing to do with Asperger's.

If you are coping with an adult child with Asperger's who does not

have a conscience, then you are not obliged to support him or her.

In the United States, Canada, and most first-world countries there are

plenty of resources for helping parents who have Asperger children.

Frequently, there are things like support groups, which are usually

free. And indeed, for children with Asperger's, the most important

resource is knowledge and information, which can be obtained cheaply

or even freely.

When you are dealing with an Asperger's adult, if he or she wants to

make it in this world, you should support him. At the age of

forty-one, shortly after my diagnosis, I moved back in with my

parents, and my parents are willing to help me because they know that

I am a responsible individual. I don't come home stoned and violent

and attribute it to Asperger's. There are many days (and nights) which

are hard for me, but I don't use that as an excuse to give other

people grief.

Rick

[Guest guest]

On 8/15/06, Rose <beachbodytan2002@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi Rick,

> what about the people that can't make that decision, nor are aware of the

consequences.

>

Then they can't function in society and need to be put under

supervised care. And their parents will have to accept that as a

constant of their children's lives.

Rick

[Guest guest]

I do not think that is a fact at all. In fact, many people have awful parents

and they turn out just fine despite that.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/14/06, Mark son <thejacobsons@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to make it

independantly on their > own unless you really know what they are capable off.

My son is only 6 at the moment and I

> am not sure if he will be able to live independantly one day or not. I will

judge at the time

> what is in his best interest and mine. I certainly wouldn't be BOOTING him

out because > he is legally an adult. And I think top do that would be grossly

unfair if the child wasn't > able to care for themselves.

I never advocated booting someone out simply because they are a legal

adult. Clearly, Beck, you did not read my post carefully. And there

is a huge difference between a six year-old, a sixteen year-old, and a

twenty-three year-old, though I suspect some parents have a hard time

making that distinction. If I were the father of a twenty-three

year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting out

in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos, and

being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

they would go. I know for a fact that under such circumstances the

situation at home is only going to get worse. Otherwise, at that point

you are cultivating codependency, and that isn't good.

I have seen this in social workers, and I have seen this in parents:

people who let themselves be taken advantage of by dysfunctional

adults. Actually, I have seen this in adult children as well who let

themselves be exploited by dysfunctional parents. In each case there

is a perverse compensation for the exploited in that they get to

revel in drama ( " my son/father/client did THIS to me, I don't KNOW

what to DO! " ). Of course they will always be asking for advice but

never following through on it.

Rick

.

[Guest guest]

I believe the OP revealed that her daughter is waiting on a list for help from

the state in independent living skills. So obviously, this is not a person who

is being a brat and is someone who will need help/supervision. This pretty much

ends the argument.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/15/06, tstak2 <tstak2@...> wrote:

>

> These are all symptoms of autism. (I don't know about aspergers, but I

> do know autism) They don't know not to break the rules, they are

> very disruptive at times and can't help it. When they are being like

> this or having an outburst they cannot be responsive and may not

> understand what the counseler is saying. If thrown out the door would

> cause life long emotional problems, and if you threw your child out

> the door and they hurt themselves or someone else just because they

> don't know better, how would you feel???

Oh that charged word, " child, " which obfuscates the fact that I was

writing about a TWENTY-THREE year-old (no longer a child to anyone but

the parent). If the autism in a twenty-three year-old adult is so

severe that she or he won't respond either to counseling or tough

love, then this individual should live in a supervised setting. And

the parent should accept the fact that this type of autistic adult is

not going to change, and thus there is no point in complaining about

how she or he is anti-social and misbehaves.

I do believe that there are many ways to reach even adults with autism

that is more severe than Asperger's, but that such individuals must

have the motivation to want to be reached. If they don't, there isn't

much you can do about it.

Rick

[Guest guest]

That was a nice post, Becky. You expressed what I meant. It's more than taking

a social skills class, right!

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

>

> year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting

out

> > in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos,

and

> > being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

> > they would go.

>

>

> These are all symptoms of autism. (I don't know about aspergers,

but I

> do know autism) They don't know not to break the rules, they are

> very disruptive at times and can't help it. When they are being

like

> this or having an outburst they cannot be responsive and may not

> understand what the counseler is saying. If thrown out the door

would

> cause life long emotional problems, and if you threw your child out

> the door and they hurt themselves or someone else just because they

> don't know better, how would you feel???

>

Ok, my son is 22, has Asperger's and he " acts out " because HE HAS

ASPERGERS and looks at the world in black and white. This means that

he does not understand why things change, when they will change or

how to deal with the change. He shuts down because change completely

halts his thought process. This is what Aspergers does to you. He

then gets frustrated because he knows that he should not shut down

because that is not " normal " and his thought process gets even worse

because he does not what to look " abnormal " but he cannot move, think

or do anything in the situation.This is what Aspergers does to you.

This becomes an endless cycle untill he is either helped by someone

(ha,ha),leaves the situation or gets angry and makes a scene. The

anger and frustration come from not being able to understand the

world and knowing he is doing something wrong but does not know what

he is supposed to do. Other people-so called NT people-can also cause

him to be frustrated and angry because of THE COMPLETE UNACCEPTANCE

OF ANYONE WHO IS DIFFERENT. People will make rude remarks, be

impatient or just refuse to " deal " with him. Often he is treated very

cruely in these situations because the world is just so helpful to

those of us who are " different " .

People with Aspergers cannot be " taught " , " punished " , " pushed " or

anything else to learn how to adapt to change. They CANNOT learn how

to adapt to change. They can only memorize each time that something

changed and what they did in that situation. The problem is that

almost no situation is exactly like any other because they cannot

see " grey areas " . I would say that 90% of the time they cannot see

how a previous situation relates to the one that they are in. Also,

it is hard to remember what you did in a previous situation when YOUR

BRAIN SHUTS DOWN!!!

For example: My son is able to do grocery shopping alone now that he

is able to drive. The other day I was with him at the grocery store

and we had two carts. I unloaded mine and, as he was unloading his,

asked him if I could go to the customer service counter to get a

refund on a perscription. This counter was only a few feet away from

the checkout stand and he has shopped alone many times now so he told

me " Sure, you know I've done this about a million times by now. " As I

was waiting for my refund I turned around to check on him and he was

just standing at the checkout while the clerk STARED at him. I knew

that something had happened so I went back to the checkout and asked

the checker what was happening. The second cart was still way back at

the beginning of the check out and only 1/2 unloaded. The checker,

very rudely said to me " is that 2nd cart yours? " . His facial

expression was one of extreme irritation. Turns out that what

happened-which my son told me in the car later-was that my son saw

some groceries-from my cart-at the place where they bag them-that he

did not recognize so he told the clerk that those were not his

groceries. I don't know what the clerk said to him but my son told me

that he then realized that they were the groceries from my cart and

told the checker that, yes, they were his groceries. This is when the

checker just stopped checking and STARED at him. Why he did this I do

not know but that made my son shut down completely because he had

never been in that EXACT same situation before. He stopped unloading

the cart and just stood there and I don't know how it would have

ended up if I hadn't stepped in. This is after almost a year of

buying groceries for me.

Why did the checker make such a big deal out of this? Why did he not

just say, " Oh, OK, so they are yours " and continue checking the

groceries? I believe it is because my son cannot look people in the

eye and tilts his head down and kind of squints up at them. He also

has a nervous habit of pulling his eyebrows out-I forget what this is

called-(trich something?)and so has only about 1/4 of his right

eyebrow and about 3/4 of his left eyebrow. So, he acts and looks

DIFFERENT! OH MY GOD! So let's make him feel even more different by

STARING AT HIM! This could have ended up with my son getting angry

and " acting out in a socially disruptive manner " . Why should he be

punished for this? He is only reacting to the person making him feel

different. The person that makes him feel that way should be

punished! Where is the humanity these days? Don't ask me cause I

don't know. I think it got sucked into some vortex where only people

who are " normal " have access to it.

As for " throwing someone out the door " that is almost impossible in

California, where I live, as there is a law that parents are

responsible for their adult disabled children. Also, our mental

health money has been taken away by our lovely governor and, at least

where I live because I asked, there is no place to " throw them away "

to. Unless the person is a danger to himself or others they don't

qualify for " group homes " or anything else.

As for " causing chaos " and " breaking the rules " ,those are the norm at

my house. This is because they are sometimes so overwhelmed by how

hard their life is because they are " different " , that they cannot

help but break the rules and cause chaos. It is not something they do

on purpose and yes they are reminded all the time about " the rules "

and " keeping peace in the house " . Punishing them only makes them feel

worse than they already feel. They do not want to cause chaos or

break the rules.

Also the, " being completely unresponsive to counseling " , now what

does this mean? Do you mean that there is an absolute 100% way of

counseling that can change their brain chemistry? Is there an

absolute 100% way of counseling that will make them understand the

world? Is there a way of counseling that will take away their sensory

issues? Is there a way of counseling that will completely heal them

from being overwhelmed by a world that refuses to accept them? If you

know where I can get that counseling I would sell my soul to be able

to give that to my children.

Sorry for the rant but this just p**sed me off so much!

Becky

.

[Guest guest]

A person with autism is not at all the same as a person who has an addiction to

drugs or alcohol. It's not the same thing at all. yikes! Remember that just

your experiences alone do not mean it applies to everyone at all.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

> love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

> there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

> negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

>

I should state that much of my worldview has been influenced by

twelve-step program's like Al-Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics. I

also used to attend regular Al-Anon meetings, and heard many stories

from mothers and fathers regarding the children they have loved and

raised, and sure enough there were probably many reasons their

children drank, and there were undoubtedly reasons why such children

lacked the motivation to stop drinking. But once that " child " was of

an adult age and continued to act irresponsibly, sometimes it took

some very tough measures to motivate them to change. You can

psychoanalyze such children all you like, but it won't make a

difference.

When I worked as property manager for a subsidized housing project for

the mentally, I used to encounter the same argument from social

workers fighting my eviction proceedings. I would have a tenant who

might have taken his spent his or her SSI check on liquor rather than

paying the rent, who might have vandalized the property and assaulted

the fellow tenants...and their social workers would plead that he or

she needs to be " understood " more. But all the " understanding " in the

world didn't stop them breaking the rules and being a threat to the

other tenants.

I didn't start out that way when I took on that job, but when I left I

had the firm conviction that if you are a bipolar or schizophrenic

adult and want to enjoy the advantages of being a free citizen, then

you must be held accountable for your behavior and face consequences

for breaking social contracts. My own experience taught me that the

more a mentally ill person faced such consequences, the more grounded

and less " insane " he or she tended to be.

And I believe the same applies to adults with Asperger's or other

forms of autism. And I repeat, I am talking about ADULTS, not six

year-olds. If an adult with Asperger's can't behave responsibly, then

they shouldn't be granted the priviledges of a free citizen. Most

likely they should remain in a supervised, monitored setting. But

don't expect to change them until they want to change, no matter what

their development history is like.

Rick

[Guest guest]

Oh yes, thanks Pam! I thought for a second I had lost sight of common sense...

but you have it with you today! lol

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

But Asperger's is a neurodevelopmental disorder...alcoholism is an

addiction. Pam

[Guest guest]

If you are doing fine on your own, nobody would consider you as having severe

anything. I just spent the afternoon working with a 4 yo who has autism and I

could spend the next hour discussing what is really SEVERE in this world. And

whether you have AS or not, whether it is severe or not, it does not negate the

point that Pam made - that AS and autism are neurological disorders and not

addictions.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

I have Asperger's -- big time Asperger's, severe Asperger's -- but because I

want to live as a free citizen, and not sacrifice my freedom to live under

supervised care, I think that I should be held accountable to any

destructive or hurtful actions I may commit and face the consequences.

Making excuses and enabling destructive behavior in an adult child with

Asperger's is not a loving action. It is quite the opposite.

Rick

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> But Asperger's is a neurodevelopmental disorder...alcoholism is an

> addiction. Pam

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think this isn't a really fair question because you are mixing addictions in

with having autism - not the same category of problems at all.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

Hi Rick,

You do make lots of sense. but, what if they do want to change but can't? Like

a person who want to stop smoking, and no matter how hard they try, go to many

support groups, but that something will be a " trigger " that makes them pick up

and smoke again. same with dieters. If a person wants to change and can't, what

then? What if the parents cant afford the services that child needs?

Rick Segreda <rick.segreda@...> wrote:

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

> love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

> there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

> negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

>

I should state that much of my worldview has been influenced by

twelve-step program's like Al-Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics. I

also used to attend regular Al-Anon meetings, and heard many stories

from mothers and fathers regarding the children they have loved and

raised, and sure enough there were probably many reasons their

children drank, and there were undoubtedly reasons why such children

lacked the motivation to stop drinking. But once that " child " was of

an adult age and continued to act irresponsibly, sometimes it took

some very tough measures to motivate them to change. You can

psychoanalyze such children all you like, but it won't make a

difference.

When I worked as property manager for a subsidized housing project for

the mentally, I used to encounter the same argument from social

workers fighting my eviction proceedings. I would have a tenant who

might have taken his spent his or her SSI check on liquor rather than

paying the rent, who might have vandalized the property and assaulted

the fellow tenants...and their social workers would plead that he or

she needs to be " understood " more. But all the " understanding " in the

world didn't stop them breaking the rules and being a threat to the

other tenants.

I didn't start out that way when I took on that job, but when I left I

had the firm conviction that if you are a bipolar or schizophrenic

adult and want to enjoy the advantages of being a free citizen, then

you must be held accountable for your behavior and face consequences

for breaking social contracts. My own experience taught me that the

more a mentally ill person faced such consequences, the more grounded

and less " insane " he or she tended to be.

And I believe the same applies to adults with Asperger's or other

forms of autism. And I repeat, I am talking about ADULTS, not six

year-olds. If an adult with Asperger's can't behave responsibly, then

they shouldn't be granted the priviledges of a free citizen. Most

likely they should remain in a supervised, monitored setting. But

don't expect to change them until they want to change, no matter what

their development history is like.

Rick

.

[Guest guest]

Roxanna,

I was just trying to find out why, he is thinking like that? I can't imagine

putting anyone out, to fend for themselves, if they don't have the ability to do

that??? I've seen an autistic teenager, that when he gets mad, he can't control

his anger, nor can he speak, he understands you if you tell him to do something

simple, but will act out if he cant do it. If you told his mother to put him

out into the streets when he turns 18. she & I, would think you are crazy for

saying that. He would never make it on his own, nor learn how to survive on his

own. and she is not ready to put him in a home. she works very hard with him

and he doesn't know the difference between being spoiled or punished. She does

know that he will never - ever be independent. but will continue to love, and

work with him as long as she can.

I don't think Rick understands autism or aspergers, and is confusing it with

" everything " . I was just trying to understand from him, why he thinks that

way.

Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

I think this isn't a really fair question because you are mixing

addictions in with having autism - not the same category of problems at all.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

Hi Rick,

You do make lots of sense. but, what if they do want to change but can't? Like a

person who want to stop smoking, and no matter how hard they try, go to many

support groups, but that something will be a " trigger " that makes them pick up

and smoke again. same with dieters. If a person wants to change and can't, what

then? What if the parents cant afford the services that child needs?

Rick Segreda <rick.segreda@...> wrote:

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

> love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

> there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

> negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

>

I should state that much of my worldview has been influenced by

twelve-step program's like Al-Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics. I

also used to attend regular Al-Anon meetings, and heard many stories

from mothers and fathers regarding the children they have loved and

raised, and sure enough there were probably many reasons their

children drank, and there were undoubtedly reasons why such children

lacked the motivation to stop drinking. But once that " child " was of

an adult age and continued to act irresponsibly, sometimes it took

some very tough measures to motivate them to change. You can

psychoanalyze such children all you like, but it won't make a

difference.

When I worked as property manager for a subsidized housing project for

the mentally, I used to encounter the same argument from social

workers fighting my eviction proceedings. I would have a tenant who

might have taken his spent his or her SSI check on liquor rather than

paying the rent, who might have vandalized the property and assaulted

the fellow tenants...and their social workers would plead that he or

she needs to be " understood " more. But all the " understanding " in the

world didn't stop them breaking the rules and being a threat to the

other tenants.

I didn't start out that way when I took on that job, but when I left I

had the firm conviction that if you are a bipolar or schizophrenic

adult and want to enjoy the advantages of being a free citizen, then

you must be held accountable for your behavior and face consequences

for breaking social contracts. My own experience taught me that the

more a mentally ill person faced such consequences, the more grounded

and less " insane " he or she tended to be.

And I believe the same applies to adults with Asperger's or other

forms of autism. And I repeat, I am talking about ADULTS, not six

year-olds. If an adult with Asperger's can't behave responsibly, then

they shouldn't be granted the priviledges of a free citizen. Most

likely they should remain in a supervised, monitored setting. But

don't expect to change them until they want to change, no matter what

their development history is like.

Rick

..

[Guest guest]

Oh, I'm sorry Rose. I didn't understand what you wrote then. I get it now.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

Hi Rick,

You do make lots of sense. but, what if they do want to change but can't? Like

a person who want to stop smoking, and no matter how hard they try, go to many

support groups, but that something will be a " trigger " that makes them pick up

and smoke again. same with dieters. If a person wants to change and can't, what

then? What if the parents cant afford the services that child needs?

Rick Segreda <rick.segreda@...> wrote:

On 8/15/06, ppanda65@... <ppanda65@...> wrote:

>

> Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

> love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

> there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

> negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

>

I should state that much of my worldview has been influenced by

twelve-step program's like Al-Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics. I

also used to attend regular Al-Anon meetings, and heard many stories

from mothers and fathers regarding the children they have loved and

raised, and sure enough there were probably many reasons their

children drank, and there were undoubtedly reasons why such children

lacked the motivation to stop drinking. But once that " child " was of

an adult age and continued to act irresponsibly, sometimes it took

some very tough measures to motivate them to change. You can

psychoanalyze such children all you like, but it won't make a

difference.

When I worked as property manager for a subsidized housing project for

the mentally, I used to encounter the same argument from social

workers fighting my eviction proceedings. I would have a tenant who

might have taken his spent his or her SSI check on liquor rather than

paying the rent, who might have vandalized the property and assaulted

the fellow tenants...and their social workers would plead that he or

she needs to be " understood " more. But all the " understanding " in the

world didn't stop them breaking the rules and being a threat to the

other tenants.

I didn't start out that way when I took on that job, but when I left I

had the firm conviction that if you are a bipolar or schizophrenic

adult and want to enjoy the advantages of being a free citizen, then

you must be held accountable for your behavior and face consequences

for breaking social contracts. My own experience taught me that the

more a mentally ill person faced such consequences, the more grounded

and less " insane " he or she tended to be.

And I believe the same applies to adults with Asperger's or other

forms of autism. And I repeat, I am talking about ADULTS, not six

year-olds. If an adult with Asperger's can't behave responsibly, then

they shouldn't be granted the priviledges of a free citizen. Most

likely they should remain in a supervised, monitored setting. But

don't expect to change them until they want to change, no matter what

their development history is like.

Rick

.

[Guest guest]

The hard part about all this is??? That some schools/teachers think just like

Rick. And the way all of you tried to convince Rick, on how hard it is for

these children and parents, and how hard it is to get services for our children.

(forget the waiting list) the money involved, therapy. Is what each of us have

to do with the school system, just to get " some " help for our children. reading

what you all have been explaining to Rick, is what I go through at a CSE/team

meetings. Some people just don't get it, some just don't see it. Then there is

that school " budget " that makes it even harder. if your not a " STRONG ADVOCATE "

and know the legal parts of the school system, and letters from professionals to

back you up. your child will not get the help he/she needs. I haven't read

from anyone here, that was able to convince Rick, reason with Rick, to see what

autism/aspergers really is. (He still doesn't get it). he is missing

something???

To all the teachers on this site. I have meet some really great teachers in

my sons school that worked very hard with my son and understand aspergers, and

my son loved his teacher. but, there are some teachers/CSE personal, just like

Rick., maybe some relatives, people in public places too.

I was keeping up with this conversation, as a learning process, to see who

could reach Rick, and help him understand, so when I come across another Rick.

I will know just what to say. " smile " a polite professional way, of course.

advocateforaspies <advocateforaspies@...> wrote:

Rick,

My only comment is that there are NOT plenty of resources for everyone

in dealing with A.S. A lot of places barely even acknowledge the fact

that A.S. is a problem.

And then, where we do have 'limited' resources, it is hard for some

people to obtain and getting information is not always as easy for

some people. (this is forgetting those that don't even want to know!)

You are living home ?? How can you handle it?

But see, sometimes, situations are different that they appear.

My husband would say a man over 40 should not be living with his

parents. But I would have to inform him that he didn't find out more

information about you, before making a harsh statement like that:)

*grin*

---------------------------------

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

[Guest guest]

I have been lurking on this one, reading snippets and deleting most. I

appreciate everyone's point of view.

A little off-topic, but also somewhat relating. My AS son sees everything

in black and white, shades of gray are hard to comprehend. He like rules and

follows rules. I believe this is true for most AS people.

Not that I agree with Rick on everything, but in his writing I can see his

AS. He has also had jobs (like the one evicting people or some such) he is

good at because for him, it is not that he lacks compassion, I don't think

that is true at all, but things are more black and white for him. (Please

don't get offended Rick, as I am making assumptions, I realize, which may or

may not be correct) I don't know if Rick has kids, I would guess not, but

even if he does, parenting may be a challenge for him. I don't think he is

trying to be mean, or really thinks AS is a choice, he is trying to get

his point across on setting limits possibly not using the best comparison.

I believe everyone here will do what they think is best for their child, we

will get ideas, opinions from each other, but ultimately we, the parent,

make the decision.

Thank you all for sharing your opinions, I have learned a lot here in a

short time, and no longer feel so alone in dealing with this.

Rick - you make me smile at times - I can see in your posts, traits my son

has - I hope he gets control of the meltdowns and is able to function in the

world like you do.

Respectfully,

Kathy K

toozie@...

_____

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It has removed 11851 spam emails to date.

Paying users do not have this message in their emails.

Try SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/go.asp?t=249> for free now!

[Guest guest]

How do you deal with the Rick's of the world? I don't know that you have to

deal with most of them. I have found the easiest way is to go around them

whenever possible. If I MUST deal with them, I will keep very detailed

documentation, back up what I am asking for with proof. Then I let the facts

speak for me more than my own voice. And then sometimes I take my dh along and

have him say what I would say. Sometimes having a man speak at an IEP meeting

gets more results.

But generally speaking, people don't know what they don't know. And some people

refuse to accept that little truism. So you try hard to steer around them! And

that keeps your sanity intact!

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

The hard part about all this is??? That some schools/teachers think just like

Rick. And the way all of you tried to convince Rick, on how hard it is for these

children and parents, and how hard it is to get services for our children.

(forget the waiting list) the money involved, therapy. Is what each of us have

to do with the school system, just to get " some " help for our children. reading

what you all have been explaining to Rick, is what I go through at a CSE/team

meetings. Some people just don't get it, some just don't see it. Then there is

that school " budget " that makes it even harder. if your not a " STRONG ADVOCATE "

and know the legal parts of the school system, and letters from professionals to

back you up. your child will not get the help he/she needs. I haven't read from

anyone here, that was able to convince Rick, reason with Rick, to see what

autism/aspergers really is. (He still doesn't get it). he is missing

something???

To all the teachers on this site. I have meet some really great teachers in my

sons school that worked very hard with my son and understand aspergers, and my

son loved his teacher. but, there are some teachers/CSE personal, just like

Rick., maybe some relatives, people in public places too.

I was keeping up with this conversation, as a learning process, to see who

could reach Rick, and help him understand, so when I come across another Rick. I

will know just what to say. " smile " a polite professional way, of course.

advocateforaspies <advocateforaspies@...> wrote:

Rick,

My only comment is that there are NOT plenty of resources for everyone

in dealing with A.S. A lot of places barely even acknowledge the fact

that A.S. is a problem.

And then, where we do have 'limited' resources, it is hard for some

people to obtain and getting information is not always as easy for

some people. (this is forgetting those that don't even want to know!)

You are living home ?? How can you handle it?

But see, sometimes, situations are different that they appear.

My husband would say a man over 40 should not be living with his

parents. But I would have to inform him that he didn't find out more

information about you, before making a harsh statement like that:)

*grin*

---------------------------------

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

[Guest guest]

I guess thats all we can do for now. thanks

Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote: How do you deal with the

Rick's of the world? I don't know that you have to deal with most of them. I

have found the easiest way is to go around them whenever possible. If I MUST

deal with them, I will keep very detailed documentation, back up what I am

asking for with proof. Then I let the facts speak for me more than my own voice.

And then sometimes I take my dh along and have him say what I would say.

Sometimes having a man speak at an IEP meeting gets more results.

But generally speaking, people don't know what they don't know. And some people

refuse to accept that little truism. So you try hard to steer around them! And

that keeps your sanity intact!

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

The hard part about all this is??? That some schools/teachers think just like

Rick. And the way all of you tried to convince Rick, on how hard it is for these

children and parents, and how hard it is to get services for our children.

(forget the waiting list) the money involved, therapy. Is what each of us have

to do with the school system, just to get " some " help for our children. reading

what you all have been explaining to Rick, is what I go through at a CSE/team

meetings. Some people just don't get it, some just don't see it. Then there is

that school " budget " that makes it even harder. if your not a " STRONG ADVOCATE "

and know the legal parts of the school system, and letters from professionals to

back you up. your child will not get the help he/she needs. I haven't read from

anyone here, that was able to convince Rick, reason with Rick, to see what

autism/aspergers really is. (He still doesn't get it). he is missing

something???

To all the teachers on this site. I have meet some really great teachers in my

sons school that worked very hard with my son and understand aspergers, and my

son loved his teacher. but, there are some teachers/CSE personal, just like

Rick., maybe some relatives, people in public places too.

I was keeping up with this conversation, as a learning process, to see who could

reach Rick, and help him understand, so when I come across another Rick. I will

know just what to say. " smile " a polite professional way, of course.

advocateforaspies <advocateforaspies@...> wrote:

Rick,

My only comment is that there are NOT plenty of resources for everyone

in dealing with A.S. A lot of places barely even acknowledge the fact

that A.S. is a problem.

And then, where we do have 'limited' resources, it is hard for some

people to obtain and getting information is not always as easy for

some people. (this is forgetting those that don't even want to know!)

You are living home ?? How can you handle it?

But see, sometimes, situations are different that they appear.

My husband would say a man over 40 should not be living with his

parents. But I would have to inform him that he didn't find out more

information about you, before making a harsh statement like that:)

*grin*

---------------------------------

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.