Re: Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

[Guest guest]

Of course, there might be some unexplained reason why a nineteen

year-old or a twenty-three year-old adult is hanging around the house

and acting in a manner we associate with selfish, spoiled brats. But I

used to work in social services, and I remember particularly one time

when I managed a transitional housing project for people with mental

illnesses. Looking back, I can't help but wonder if some of my tenants

were misdiagnosed as schizophrenics or manic-depressives, when they

actually had autism. Still, I came to realize that even the mentally

ill and the neurologically challenged need to have palpable, firm

boundaries. I had tenants who committed arson, assault, theft,

vandalism, sexual harrassment (exposing themselves), attempted rape,

and even attempted murder. And this doesn't even include the tenants

who simply didn't pay rent because they spent their SSI checks on

drugs and booze. Time and again as I would try to evict them, I would

come into conflict with their social workers, who took the " poor

little thing " approach to dealing with their clients and did

everything in their power to enable them in their bad behavior,

accusing me of " lacking compassion. " I did have tremendous compassion

-- for the good residents who had to suffer because of their

irresponsible neighbors. Regardless, some of these social workers

succeeded in delaying the eviction process, but their clients behavior

would continue and even get worse until things got greviously

dangerous and the police had to put them away, with no bail.

Maturity is NOT an inevitable process, and even if you have

Asperger's, you should not be shielded from the same consequences for

behavior that you expect from people without Asperger's. I myself

have had to learn some tough lessons about life and relationships, and

I am glad that Asperger's did not get in the way of people talking to

me straight up, or even firing me from jobs where I was failing.

Anyhow, for that mother with the twenty-three year-old daughter, I can

assure her that if she is behaving this way at twenty-three, she will

be behaving this way at thirty-three if she is still living at home.

Actually not, since she most likely will get even worse. There is a

difference between Asperger's symptoms and emotional immaturity. All

the theraputic pscyhobabble in the world will not change this adult

woman unless she encounters some genuine consequence, i.e: having to

live on her own, on her own means.

Rick

On 8/11/06, advocateforaspies <advocateforaspies@...> wrote:

>

> I just have to comment that, I could never say anything about

> someone else unless I understood more of the situation.

>

> WE could all say her daughter is a brat, but we really need to know

> more before labeling.

> Sorry, just a little tired of people labeling my kids (Not As type

> label but brat, spoiled, etc) before finding out what I am going

> through.

> There may (or may not) be a purpose for her being 23 and maybe you

> know her better than I do (well, I don't know her or her daughter at

> all:( and maybe mom needs a wake up call (or not~!!)

>

> I hate accusations for me, anyway, without a full understanding.

>

> Being an Aspie, when you said you wonder if mother's have a blind

> spot I went cuckoo. Only because I am a mother and saying it that

> way makes a sweeping generalization and my husband does that all the

> time (he also uses words like,,, you always,,, or they never,,, etc)

> So when he makes a generalization I flip out:)

>

> I can see the problems, and I agree that we have to be tough, I just

> like to know exactly what is going on before making such blanket

> statements about people.

>

> I guess part of me also gets mad because I have had people say " You

> just spoil your son, " or " he needs a good spanking " etc. and I know

> when I have made mistakes, but I also realize when sometimes things

> are they way the are because of a situation, not because I was doing

> something wrong. But it is easy to blame mom!!

> A lot of men I know have been doing it for years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> Then, on the other hand, there is the family whre they treat there

> kids like crap, their kids react, and they wonder why the kids is

> being such a brat. My husband can't understand why our youngest son

> is so mad at him, refuses to listen to him and has no respect for

> him.

> Well, guess what, it is exactly how he has been handled by my

> husband. He isn't spoiled because he gets really upset with dad, he

> hasn't been treated very nicely by dad and dad " gets mad at the drop

> of a hat', refuses to listen to him and HasNORESPECT for him... "

> Hmmmmm.

>

> Ok, not trying to be confrontational, just noting that sometimes

> situations aren't as they appear. Though this situation could be...

> but, well, some aren't:)

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I have a severe case of Asperger's, have gone through hell in my

life and I don't agree. But what is telling here is that the responses

are mostly from mothers who can't or won't make a distinction between

an eight year-old and a twenty-three year-old. I guess it is true

that no matter what age, in the eyes of the mother the child is always

" her baby, " but that attitude doesn't therefore benefit the mother's

child when said child has long passed the legal age for an adult.

Rick

On 8/11/06, Sandy <sandy1122@...> wrote:

>

> Great reply advocate...you lived up to your pen name today!!! I

> really appreciate it...I have a boy with oppositional defiance disorder

> as well as one with AS but some people say ODD is just a fancy term

> for " being a brat " but it's more than that, in fact it's not that at

> all...Brad, when he is in one of his moods, is practically incapable of

> understanding consequenses and discipline, he just needs certain

> adjustments to his environment or situation only it's a guessing game

> each time, sometimes it's just food, other times it's sleep, other

> times it can be that he's dehydrated, sometimes it's just plain ol'

> being 8 yrs old and the rest of the time, we just have to ride it out,

> because spanking makes it 10 times worse and time out? Are you kidding

> me?! I know I joked and said he was a Jerk earlier but in the midst of

> an outbreak, I turn into a monster too!,.. That's why when I'm in the

> store and I see a Mom yell at her kids at the top of her lungs, While I

> may be having a good day or hour for that matter, the truth is, I

> haven't been with her kids all day and you can't judge someone else's

> family...So thanks for your true advocacy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think it is a " mother " thing really - although it may be more common for

the mother to resist perhaps. I would boot the monkeys out by that age if they

had no plans. I would let my kids stay if they were pursuing something - like

college or career center job training, etc. But if they are just causing

problems and being bums, not staying.

I am worried about my ds who is 17 yo and has HFA. We are working on life

skills but like everything, whether he makes it on his own or not is left to be

seen. But if he was not HFA, there would not be a question.

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/11/06, njnorma23 <njnorma23@...> wrote:

>

> My 23 yr old daughter does the EXACT same thing! she has wrecked

> cars, got speeding tickets, defied my rules--you name it. Taking

> away privileges doesn't work--she also seems happy just staying in

> her room and doing nothing.

Having Asperger's or ADHD is no excuse for acting like a spoiled brat.

And if your daughter is TWENTY-THREE years old, she is WAY OVERDUE for

getting the boot. My reccommendation is that you starting attending

Toughlove and Codependent Anonymous support groups. Indeed, her

bratty behavior may be directly related to a self-hatred stemming from

the fact that she is not, at the advanced age of twenty-three, living

on her own and pulling her own weight. Yet she doesn't have the

willpower to leave all the privledges of free room and board. At this

point, a mother has to get tough, no matter how painful, for the sake

of her child's life.

I can't help but wonder if mother's have a blind spot when it comes to

this very crucial issue. I write as someone who endured years and

years of abuse from a much older brother, who was every bit as

" defiant " as your daughter, and whom my mother allowed to live at home

for many years past his eighteenth birthday. My mother too, tried

everything short of the one thing that was appropriate in response to

his selfish behavior -- throwing him out of the house. She later

justified her passivity by saying she simply loved her son too much

(presumably at the expense of my own well-being, peace, and security).

I have a female friend my age who is currently supporting not only her

mother, but her deadbeat younger brother, who has a BA in Design

(which my friend paid for and is now debt for), but who spends all his

time at home playing Final Fantasy video on his computer from morning

till night (or from night till morning). The boy's mother doesn't want

to pressure her little baby (who is 24 years old) " because she loves

him so much, " and my friend feels guilty about putting pressure on her

own mother to be responsible.

So lives are destroyed out of a perverted misinterpretation of

unconditional love.

Rick

[Guest guest]

The original post was about a 17 yo who has ADHD. If the 23 yo daughter has AS,

then that is a different story altogether. But we can only discuss what is

presented in the email.

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

I just have to comment that, I could never say anything about

someone else unless I understood more of the situation.

WE could all say her daughter is a brat, but we really need to know

more before labeling.

Sorry, just a little tired of people labeling my kids (Not As type

label but brat, spoiled, etc) before finding out what I am going

through.

There may (or may not) be a purpose for her being 23 and maybe you

know her better than I do (well, I don't know her or her daughter at

all:( and maybe mom needs a wake up call (or not~!!)

I hate accusations for me, anyway, without a full understanding.

Being an Aspie, when you said you wonder if mother's have a blind

spot I went cuckoo. Only because I am a mother and saying it that

way makes a sweeping generalization and my husband does that all the

time (he also uses words like,,, you always,,, or they never,,, etc)

So when he makes a generalization I flip out:)

I can see the problems, and I agree that we have to be tough, I just

like to know exactly what is going on before making such blanket

statements about people.

I guess part of me also gets mad because I have had people say " You

just spoil your son, " or " he needs a good spanking " etc. and I know

when I have made mistakes, but I also realize when sometimes things

are they way the are because of a situation, not because I was doing

something wrong. But it is easy to blame mom!!

A lot of men I know have been doing it for years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then, on the other hand, there is the family whre they treat there

kids like crap, their kids react, and they wonder why the kids is

being such a brat. My husband can't understand why our youngest son

is so mad at him, refuses to listen to him and has no respect for

him.

Well, guess what, it is exactly how he has been handled by my

husband. He isn't spoiled because he gets really upset with dad, he

hasn't been treated very nicely by dad and dad " gets mad at the drop

of a hat', refuses to listen to him and HasNORESPECT for him... "

Hmmmmm.

Ok, not trying to be confrontational, just noting that sometimes

situations aren't as they appear. Though this situation could be...

but, well, some aren't:)

--- In , " Rick Segreda " <rick.

>

> Having Asperger's or ADHD is no excuse for acting like a spoiled

brat.

> And if your daughter is TWENTY-THREE years old, she is WAY OVERDUE

for

> getting the boot. My reccommendation is that you starting attending

> Toughlove and Codependent Anonymous support groups. Indeed, her

> bratty behavior may be directly related to a self-hatred stemming

from

> the fact that she is not, at the advanced age of twenty-three,

living

> on her own and pulling her own weight. Yet she doesn't have the

> willpower to leave all the privledges of free room and board. At

this

> point, a mother has to get tough, no matter how painful, for the

sake

> of her child's life.

>

> I can't help but wonder if mother's have a blind spot when it

comes to

> this very crucial issue. I write as someone who endured years and

> years of abuse from a much older brother, who was every bit as

> " defiant " as your daughter, and whom my mother allowed to live at

home

> for many years past his eighteenth birthday. My mother too, tried

> everything short of the one thing that was appropriate in response

to

> his selfish behavior -- throwing him out of the house. She later

> justified her passivity by saying she simply loved her son too much

> (presumably at the expense of my own well-being, peace, and

security).

>

> I have a female friend my age who is currently supporting not only

her

> mother, but her deadbeat younger brother, who has a BA in Design

> (which my friend paid for and is now debt for), but who spends all

his

> time at home playing Final Fantasy video on his computer from

morning

> till night (or from night till morning). The boy's mother doesn't

want

> to pressure her little baby (who is 24 years old) " because she

loves

> him so much, " and my friend feels guilty about putting pressure on

her

> own mother to be responsible.

>

> So lives are destroyed out of a perverted misinterpretation of

> unconditional love.

>

> Rick

>

.

[Guest guest]

To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male neighbor in

my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a line from

" Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old daughter for

throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So fathers,

too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me, was like

that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I was left

at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's or High

Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person with Autism

can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and hurtful

in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really wants to

make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can get.

The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations. Maybe I

could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get " certain

core principals about life until they leave home are banged up a bit

by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to learn

some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

willing accept the training and education they need to succeed in

life.

Rick

On 8/12/06, Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think it is a " mother " thing really - although it may be more common

for the mother to resist perhaps. I would boot the monkeys out by that age if

they had no plans. I would let my kids stay if they were pursuing something -

like college or career center job training, etc. But if they are just causing

problems and being bums, not staying.

>

> I am worried about my ds who is 17 yo and has HFA. We are working on life

skills but like everything, whether he makes it on his own or not is left to be

seen. But if he was not HFA, there would not be a question.

>

> Roxanna

[Guest guest]

On 8/12/06, advocateforaspies <advocateforaspies@...> wrote:

> Yeah, I admit, we moms have to work hard, and know when we need to

> make our kids accountable for their behavior (which is all the time,

> but we have to understand their capabilities first)

> but making change doesn't mean making a person feel bad about what

> they do.

This is where I disagree. I happen to think that sometimes a child

needs to feel like s#!t if he or she has acted out on a selfish or

hurtful impulse. That goes for adults, too, by the way. And by the

way, I am totally opposed to corporal punishment for children. But

that is simply because I have always found corporal punishment

grotesquely unfair, involving a major power imbalance, physically,

between adults and children, where the only lesson is to fear those

bigger than you.

My brother and me have different fathers. My father was ostentatiously

and unreflexively favorable towards me while he was alive, and my

oldest brother resented that, deeply. He too had also lost his father,

but at a much younger age. So he always resented me. My mother

eventually admitted that she felt tremendously sorry for my older

brother because of that loss, and was thus disinclined to discipline

him at all (with the result of a " Sophie's Choice " effect: sacrifice

one child for the sake of other).

For a variety of reasons, partly due to my Asperger's, and partly due

to my dysfunctional upbringing, where my feelings were constantly

invalidated, it took me a long time to be asssertive in situations

where I risked embarrasment, other people's anger, or the loss of

friendship.

Rick

[Guest guest]

I don't agree at all. There are different kinds of autism out there. My ds

definitely has autism and not " AS " . He isn't chatty or " a little professor. "

He does " NOT " take chances in the least. He will just not. Even if it means

something important to him or to his well being. Well, there are many more

things I could add to the list but I'm too beat today to do that.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male neighbor in

my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a line from

" Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old daughter for

throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So fathers,

too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me, was like

that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I was left

at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's or High

Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person with Autism

can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and hurtful

in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really wants to

make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can get.

The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations. Maybe I

could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get " certain

core principals about life until they leave home are banged up a bit

by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to learn

some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

willing accept the training and education they need to succeed in

life.

Rick

On 8/12/06, Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think it is a " mother " thing really - although it may be more common

for the mother to resist perhaps. I would boot the monkeys out by that age if

they had no plans. I would let my kids stay if they were pursuing something -

like college or career center job training, etc. But if they are just causing

problems and being bums, not staying.

>

> I am worried about my ds who is 17 yo and has HFA. We are working on life

skills but like everything, whether he makes it on his own or not is left to be

seen. But if he was not HFA, there would not be a question.

>

> Roxanna

[Guest guest]

I am a mom and I am a firm believer in letting kids suffer the little

consequences so that they can learn to avoid the big nasty ones (that

we protect them from when they are small).

Kathy J.

On 8/12/06, Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

> I don't agree at all. There are different kinds of autism out there. My ds

> definitely has autism and not " AS " . He isn't chatty or " a little

> professor. " He does " NOT " take chances in the least. He will just not.

> Even if it means something important to him or to his well being. Well,

> there are many more things I could add to the list but I'm too beat today to

> do that.

>

> Roxanna

> Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who

> Spoil

>

>

> To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male neighbor in

> my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a line from

> " Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old daughter for

> throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So fathers,

> too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

> father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me, was like

> that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I was left

> at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

>

> There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's or High

> Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person with Autism

> can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and hurtful

> in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

> neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really wants to

> make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can get.

> The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations. Maybe I

> could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get " certain

> core principals about life until they leave home are banged up a bit

> by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

> unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to learn

> some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

> willing accept the training and education they need to succeed in

> life.

>

> Rick

>

> On 8/12/06, Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

> >

> > I don't think it is a " mother " thing really - although it may be more

> common for the mother to resist perhaps. I would boot the monkeys out by

> that age if they had no plans. I would let my kids stay if they were

> pursuing something - like college or career center job training, etc. But if

> they are just causing problems and being bums, not staying.

> >

> > I am worried about my ds who is 17 yo and has HFA. We are working on

> life skills but like everything, whether he makes it on his own or not is

> left to be seen. But if he was not HFA, there would not be a question.

> >

> > Roxanna

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He suffers every day from having autism and various learning disabilities.

Would love to add more to that, maybe next week.

I believe kids should have the consequences of their actions too. But when you

are talking about kids with autism, depression, learning problems - you have to

consider factors outside the " norm " and your expectations have to change. For

some people here who have kids with mild AS, you might be thinking a lot

differently than people who have kids with severe AS or more problematic autism

dx with language delays. It is no longer about just teaching them idioms or

getting a social skill class. That is why with the OP, there has to be a

distinction made between a kid who is 17 yo and just being obnoxious and one who

has other problems such a depression. One case, you would kick their butt into

gear. The other case, you would consult mental health people, possibly use

medication and some kind of appropriate therapy.

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who

> Spoil

>

>

> To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male neighbor in

> my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a line from

> " Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old daughter for

> throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So fathers,

> too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

> father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me, was like

> that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I was left

> at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

>

> There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's or High

> Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person with Autism

> can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and hurtful

> in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

> neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really wants to

> make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can get.

> The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations. Maybe I

> could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get " certain

> core principals about life until they leave home are banged up a bit

> by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

> unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to learn

> some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

> willing accept the training and education they need to succeed in

> life.

>

> Rick

>

> >

[Guest guest]

I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to make it

independantly on their own unless you really know what they are capable off. My

son is only 6 at the moment and I am not sure if he will be able to live

independantly one day or not. I will judge at the time what is in his best

interest and mine. I certainly wouldn't be BOOTING him out because he is

legally an adult. And I think top do that would be grossly unfair if the child

wasn't able to care for themselves.

I too came from a very neglected background and suffered years of abuse. My

mother kicked me out when I turned 16 as she thought I was old enough to make it

on my own. It was a very selfish thing for her to do and it almost destroyed my

life.

Beck

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/11/06, njnorma23 <njnorma23@...> wrote:

>

> My 23 yr old daughter does the EXACT same thing! she has wrecked

> cars, got speeding tickets, defied my rules--you name it. Taking

> away privileges doesn't work--she also seems happy just staying in

> her room and doing nothing.

Having Asperger's or ADHD is no excuse for acting like a spoiled brat.

And if your daughter is TWENTY-THREE years old, she is WAY OVERDUE for

getting the boot. My reccommendation is that you starting attending

Toughlove and Codependent Anonymous support groups. Indeed, her

bratty behavior may be directly related to a self-hatred stemming from

the fact that she is not, at the advanced age of twenty-three, living

on her own and pulling her own weight. Yet she doesn't have the

willpower to leave all the privledges of free room and board. At this

point, a mother has to get tough, no matter how painful, for the sake

of her child's life.

I can't help but wonder if mother's have a blind spot when it comes to

this very crucial issue. I write as someone who endured years and

years of abuse from a much older brother, who was every bit as

" defiant " as your daughter, and whom my mother allowed to live at home

for many years past his eighteenth birthday. My mother too, tried

everything short of the one thing that was appropriate in response to

his selfish behavior -- throwing him out of the house. She later

justified her passivity by saying she simply loved her son too much

(presumably at the expense of my own well-being, peace, and security).

I have a female friend my age who is currently supporting not only her

mother, but her deadbeat younger brother, who has a BA in Design

(which my friend paid for and is now debt for), but who spends all his

time at home playing Final Fantasy video on his computer from morning

till night (or from night till morning). The boy's mother doesn't want

to pressure her little baby (who is 24 years old) " because she loves

him so much, " and my friend feels guilty about putting pressure on her

own mother to be responsible.

So lives are destroyed out of a perverted misinterpretation of

unconditional love.

Rick

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Roxanna, my son also has HFA and is lower down on the spectrum.

He is only a few IQ points from having an intellectual disability. Even so

called N.T adults take anti depressants, visit psychologists and get help when

they need it. How many N.T adults have huge credit debts and these are people

who are meant to be fine independently! If my son doesn't have the mental

ability to care for his own needs as a young adult I am not going to just let

society abuse his naivety and sit back and watch him destroy his life. I will

get him the support that he needs to be happy. My son's happiness and well

being mean far more to me than being able to say " He's independent " . And as I

pointed out before how many people are truly independent anyway. they may not

be dependant on a parent but they are dependant on medication, credit,

cigarettes, etc.

Beck

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male neighbor in

my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a line from

" Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old daughter for

throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So fathers,

too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me, was like

that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I was left

at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's or High

Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person with Autism

can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and hurtful

in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really wants to

make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can get.

The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations. Maybe I

could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get " certain

core principals about life until they leave home are banged up a bit

by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to learn

some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

willing accept the training and education they need to succeed in

life.

Rick

On 8/12/06, Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think it is a " mother " thing really - although it may be more common

for the mother to resist perhaps. I would boot the monkeys out by that age if

they had no plans. I would let my kids stay if they were pursuing something -

like college or career center job training, etc. But if they are just causing

problems and being bums, not staying.

>

> I am worried about my ds who is 17 yo and has HFA. We are working on life

skills but like everything, whether he makes it on his own or not is left to be

seen. But if he was not HFA, there would not be a question.

>

> Roxanna

[Guest guest]

On 8/14/06, Mark son <thejacobsons@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to make it

independantly on their > own unless you really know what they are capable off.

My son is only 6 at the moment and I

> am not sure if he will be able to live independantly one day or not. I will

judge at the time

> what is in his best interest and mine. I certainly wouldn't be BOOTING him out

because > he is legally an adult. And I think top do that would be grossly

unfair if the child wasn't > able to care for themselves.

I never advocated booting someone out simply because they are a legal

adult. Clearly, Beck, you did not read my post carefully. And there

is a huge difference between a six year-old, a sixteen year-old, and a

twenty-three year-old, though I suspect some parents have a hard time

making that distinction. If I were the father of a twenty-three

year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting out

in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos, and

being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

they would go. I know for a fact that under such circumstances the

situation at home is only going to get worse. Otherwise, at that point

you are cultivating codependency, and that isn't good.

I have seen this in social workers, and I have seen this in parents:

people who let themselves be taken advantage of by dysfunctional

adults. Actually, I have seen this in adult children as well who let

themselves be exploited by dysfunctional parents. In each case there

is a perverse compensation for the exploited in that they get to

revel in drama ( " my son/father/client did THIS to me, I don't KNOW

what to DO! " ). Of course they will always be asking for advice but

never following through on it.

Rick

[Guest guest]

On 8/14/06, tstak2 <tstak2@...> wrote:

>

> How about if the 18 - 23 year old really doesn't understand it is

> wrong, or doesn't understand what is right?

Then you have a HUGE problem that goes beyond the scope of Asperger's

Disorder. An inability to grasp the difference between right and wrong

is not a symptom of autism or HFA. A twenty-three year-old that

doesn't understand that theft, rape, and murder are bad things

shouldn't be in a home with his or her parents, but locked up in an

institution where he or she can be prevented from doing harm to

others.

Rick

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/14/2006 5:39:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rick.segreda@... writes:

Then you have a HUGE problem that goes beyond the scope of Asperger's

Disorder. An inability to grasp the difference between right and wrong

is not a symptom of autism or HFA. A twenty-three year-old that

doesn't understand that theft, rape, and murder are bad things

shouldn't be in a home with his or her parents, but locked up in an

institution where he or she can be prevented from doing harm to

others.

Don't mean to butt in...but all I can say is WOW on this one. Pam

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/14/2006 6:45:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

advocateforaspies@... writes:

I am going to be doing some workshops and one thing I will be

talking about is for professionals (and not so profes.) really need

to understand families, and vise versa.

Where do you do your workshops? Pam

[Guest guest]

On 8/15/06, tstak2 <tstak2@...> wrote:

>

> These are all symptoms of autism. (I don't know about aspergers, but I

> do know autism) They don't know not to break the rules, they are

> very disruptive at times and can't help it. When they are being like

> this or having an outburst they cannot be responsive and may not

> understand what the counseler is saying. If thrown out the door would

> cause life long emotional problems, and if you threw your child out

> the door and they hurt themselves or someone else just because they

> don't know better, how would you feel???

Oh that charged word, " child, " which obfuscates the fact that I was

writing about a TWENTY-THREE year-old (no longer a child to anyone but

the parent). If the autism in a twenty-three year-old adult is so

severe that she or he won't respond either to counseling or tough

love, then this individual should live in a supervised setting. And

the parent should accept the fact that this type of autistic adult is

not going to change, and thus there is no point in complaining about

how she or he is anti-social and misbehaves.

I do believe that there are many ways to reach even adults with autism

that is more severe than Asperger's, but that such individuals must

have the motivation to want to be reached. If they don't, there isn't

much you can do about it.

Rick

[Guest guest]

Correct name AND you agree with me. Two points! <G>

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

i THink you are right on target, Roxanna (correct name) *grin*

We have to understand each of our kids, and how they are

individually, and then work with what they have to help them be

successful in life.

Of course, all kids need consequences, but one thing I fail to say

is that there are negative and positive consequences, so I

personally don't mean that a consequence has to be something major.

I think of it, like, if you don't eat, you will be hungry, if you

hit, you will go in time out or do a chore, but my husband might

think if you don't eat, you suffer and deserve a punishment, and if

you hit someone you need to hit right back. That I don't agree with.

However that is why I say we have to really understand when they

have difficulties (anxiety, depression, etc) that we have to handle

things differently.

My youngest hits and A BIG part of that is the anxiety and his

problems with processing.

When I talk to some one in my family, they say HE NEEDS SEVERE

CONSEQUENCE. (Heck, even my husband) But what I am saying is I

understand why he is having difficulty and it isn't about just

punishing him. He needs to understand it is wrong to hit, and at the

same time, we need to give him another way to express his

frustration. We also need to help him decrease his anxiety.

We can help our kids to understand there are consequences to their

actions, just we with the special needs kids ESPECIALLY need to be

able to know when sometimes it isn't that easy and our kids need an

extra bit of help and understanding.

It doesn't mean we are spoiling them, it means we are trying

(hopefully) to help them not have something major happen to them and

we are understanding that they may take longer to learn alot of

skills that there peers already have:)

What you said is exactly what I have been saying to my whole family.

I just wish they would listen!

(*smiles*)

lisa b

>

> He suffers every day from having autism and various learning

disabilities. Would love to add more to that, maybe next week.

>

> I believe kids should have the consequences of their actions too.

But when you are talking about kids with autism, depression,

learning problems - you have to consider factors outside the " norm "

and your expectations have to change. For some people here who have

kids with mild AS, you might be thinking a lot differently than

people who have kids with severe AS or more problematic autism dx

with language delays. It is no longer about just teaching them

idioms or getting a social skill class. That is why with the OP,

there has to be a distinction made between a kid who is 17 yo and

just being obnoxious and one who has other problems such a

depression. One case, you would kick their butt into gear. The

other case, you would consult mental health people, possibly use

medication and some kind of appropriate therapy.

>

> Roxanna

> --

.

[Guest guest]

I was talking about a kid who doesn't have a dx. I wouldn't make a decision

like that at age 6 either, that's stupid.

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/11/06, njnorma23 <njnorma23@...> wrote:

>

> My 23 yr old daughter does the EXACT same thing! she has wrecked

> cars, got speeding tickets, defied my rules--you name it. Taking

> away privileges doesn't work--she also seems happy just staying in

> her room and doing nothing.

Having Asperger's or ADHD is no excuse for acting like a spoiled brat.

And if your daughter is TWENTY-THREE years old, she is WAY OVERDUE for

getting the boot. My reccommendation is that you starting attending

Toughlove and Codependent Anonymous support groups. Indeed, her

bratty behavior may be directly related to a self-hatred stemming from

the fact that she is not, at the advanced age of twenty-three, living

on her own and pulling her own weight. Yet she doesn't have the

willpower to leave all the privledges of free room and board. At this

point, a mother has to get tough, no matter how painful, for the sake

of her child's life.

I can't help but wonder if mother's have a blind spot when it comes to

this very crucial issue. I write as someone who endured years and

years of abuse from a much older brother, who was every bit as

" defiant " as your daughter, and whom my mother allowed to live at home

for many years past his eighteenth birthday. My mother too, tried

everything short of the one thing that was appropriate in response to

his selfish behavior -- throwing him out of the house. She later

justified her passivity by saying she simply loved her son too much

(presumably at the expense of my own well-being, peace, and security).

I have a female friend my age who is currently supporting not only her

mother, but her deadbeat younger brother, who has a BA in Design

(which my friend paid for and is now debt for), but who spends all his

time at home playing Final Fantasy video on his computer from morning

till night (or from night till morning). The boy's mother doesn't want

to pressure her little baby (who is 24 years old) " because she loves

him so much, " and my friend feels guilty about putting pressure on her

own mother to be responsible.

So lives are destroyed out of a perverted misinterpretation of

unconditional love.

Rick

[Guest guest]

You really can't say that about people with AS. I think booting out a 23 yo

with AS for being socially disruptive would be wrong. After all, that is the

dx. There are some people with AS who really have a disability and who won't be

living independently despite our best attempts to help them get there. I know

some personally who I am sure won't be independent. They have serious problems

that won't be solved soon and certainly not if we just hang them out to dry long

enough. This has nothing to do with spoiling and everything to do with common

sense. And if that is what we want to call " spoiling mothers " then I guess I am

one!

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/14/06, Mark son <thejacobsons@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to make it

independantly on their > own unless you really know what they are capable off.

My son is only 6 at the moment and I

> am not sure if he will be able to live independantly one day or not. I will

judge at the time

> what is in his best interest and mine. I certainly wouldn't be BOOTING him

out because > he is legally an adult. And I think top do that would be grossly

unfair if the child wasn't > able to care for themselves.

I never advocated booting someone out simply because they are a legal

adult. Clearly, Beck, you did not read my post carefully. And there

is a huge difference between a six year-old, a sixteen year-old, and a

twenty-three year-old, though I suspect some parents have a hard time

making that distinction. If I were the father of a twenty-three

year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting out

in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos, and

being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

they would go. I know for a fact that under such circumstances the

situation at home is only going to get worse. Otherwise, at that point

you are cultivating codependency, and that isn't good.

I have seen this in social workers, and I have seen this in parents:

people who let themselves be taken advantage of by dysfunctional

adults. Actually, I have seen this in adult children as well who let

themselves be exploited by dysfunctional parents. In each case there

is a perverse compensation for the exploited in that they get to

revel in drama ( " my son/father/client did THIS to me, I don't KNOW

what to DO! " ). Of course they will always be asking for advice but

never following through on it.

Rick

[Guest guest]

Beck,

It is a really hard place to be, isn't it. I know there are days when I think

my 17 yo will be fine and then something happens and I realize he isn't fine and

maybe he can't be independent someday. I have learned one thing so far - that I

have to sometimes put aside what I think is the " only " path to independence for

him and realize that there are other things in life that are just as important.

I learned that this year especially because he could no longer go to school. I

felt like " this is it! we've hit the max! This is the best he can do! " But

when I stopped wallowing, I realized that we have come up with an arrangement

that works even better for him and he is happier. He is not depressed all the

time. But it's tough. Hang in there!

Roxanna

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male neighbor in

my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a line from

" Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old daughter for

throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So fathers,

too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me, was like

that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I was left

at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's or High

Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person with Autism

can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and hurtful

in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really wants to

make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can get.

The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations. Maybe I

could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get " certain

core principals about life until they leave home are banged up a bit

by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to learn

some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

willing accept the training and education they need to succeed in

life.

Rick

On 8/12/06, Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think it is a " mother " thing really - although it may be more common

for the mother to resist perhaps. I would boot the monkeys out by that age if

they had no plans. I would let my kids stay if they were pursuing something -

like college or career center job training, etc. But if they are just causing

problems and being bums, not staying.

>

> I am worried about my ds who is 17 yo and has HFA. We are working on life

skills but like everything, whether he makes it on his own or not is left to be

seen. But if he was not HFA, there would not be a question.

>

> Roxanna

.

[Guest guest]

I think this is an interesting conversation too. I think somehow, though, we

have mixed up the original post. lol. I don't think the 23 yo had AS. I guess

in these threads, we do tend to lose some of the information as we talk.

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

That is exactly what I am saying, too. We have to really understand

exactly what someone is going through before we can make a judgement

about them, because there are many situations where something is

just not right and this individual may need a little more help

before they can be moved on to society.

I feel that we need to do all we can in teaching our kids what is

right and wrong, and work hard at getting them functioning in an

acceptable way. If we just find it isn't working, we can try to get

support from others.

Some kids do just need the 'boot' but we have to be careful to

decide who does and who just needs more assistance to be prepared to

live on their own.

I am actually thankful that this discussion has gone on, because I

have a much more clear vision of how we should do things. My boys

should be so thankful (they won't be, but they should hahaha!)

*smiles*

>

> How about if the 18 - 23 year old really doesn't understand it is

> wrong, or doesn't understand what is right? I don't know if I'm

> saying what I'm thinking here. With my son HFA at those ages, he

> will not be able to move out on his own even if he is defiant he

> wont understand he's being defiant. It tells me when the 23 year

> old said she doesn't understand why she has limits, that she's

not

> getting it. I would never make her leave because of this, I would

> try everything in my power to help her keep her limits, and not

let

> her drive for a while, etc. But unless she was staying out for

days

> at a time and stealing from me, I'd try everything I could to help

> her more. If those mothers are reading this, have you tried the

> gluten free diet? I know they are older and it might be harder

but

> anything at this point might help.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is her disability? I don't think you mentioned that in your first post.

That is why many of us thought she was just spoiled while it sounds now like she

has some kind of disability.

Roxanna

( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

i want my dd (23) to be 'on her own' but she's definitely not ready.

I've tried letting her live on her own before-(before she was approved

for some state-provided support)-she didn't eat, sleep, wash, clean her

apartment and was fired from her job cause she didn't show up (i showed

her how to take the bus, but she didn't use the busses). It

didn't 'click' with her that she needed to do certain things on her own-

-YES she does know how to cook, clean, do her laundry, etc--just like a

normal child. She is 'on the list' for supported living support, but

that list is 3+ yrs long--

I am trying to show her that living within the limits set for her is a

good thing. What does work most often is giving her a list of things

to do (shower, brush teeth, take out trash, feed pets, etc) and let her

decide (just like an adult does) when she will get these things done--

but set a time limit--say

by 5 pm. --that usually works. I am trying to show her that living

within the limits set for her is a good thing.

Trust me, I am NOT trying to spoil her--I want her to be successful and

independent more than anything, but realize she will need some support

when she does move out.

NJ

.

[Guest guest]

And again...there are different presentations of Asperger's also. Pam

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/15/2006 8:38:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

rick.segreda@... writes:

I do believe that there are many ways to reach even adults with autism

that is more severe than Asperger's, but that such individuals must

have the motivation to want to be reached. If they don't, there isn't

much you can do about it.

Rick, I do agree with this, but if this is your child that you've raised and

love...kicking them out the door would be the last resort possible. Usually

there is a reason for lack of motivation, just as there is reason for

negative/inappropriate behaviors. Pam

[Guest guest]

It is a sad fact though that many of these dysfunctional adults are the way they

are because their carers/ parents made them this way and then they go and boot

them out when they need help the most.

Beck

Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

On 8/14/06, Mark son <thejacobsons@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to make it

independantly on their > own unless you really know what they are capable off.

My son is only 6 at the moment and I

> am not sure if he will be able to live independantly one day or not. I will

judge at the time

> what is in his best interest and mine. I certainly wouldn't be BOOTING him

out because > he is legally an adult. And I think top do that would be grossly

unfair if the child wasn't > able to care for themselves.

I never advocated booting someone out simply because they are a legal

adult. Clearly, Beck, you did not read my post carefully. And there

is a huge difference between a six year-old, a sixteen year-old, and a

twenty-three year-old, though I suspect some parents have a hard time

making that distinction. If I were the father of a twenty-three

year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting out

in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos, and

being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

they would go. I know for a fact that under such circumstances the

situation at home is only going to get worse. Otherwise, at that point

you are cultivating codependency, and that isn't good.

I have seen this in social workers, and I have seen this in parents:

people who let themselves be taken advantage of by dysfunctional

adults. Actually, I have seen this in adult children as well who let

themselves be exploited by dysfunctional parents. In each case there

is a perverse compensation for the exploited in that they get to

revel in drama ( " my son/father/client did THIS to me, I don't KNOW

what to DO! " ). Of course they will always be asking for advice but

never following through on it.

Rick