Re: Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse???

[Guest guest]

well i have explained before and no doubt i will explain again but

WHAT IS THE POINT OF KILLING OFF ANYTHING IF IT IS ONLY GOING TO GROW

AGAIN BECAUSE THE GUT INNATE IMMUNE SYSTEM CANNOT KEEP THE YEAST AND

BAD BACTERIA DOWN?

yeast does not protect the brain from mercury

all that is happening is that the gut innate immune system has

dropped in function through your interventions and i have to say this

is the usual effect of most of the supplementation on this board.

i would not limit fruit etc because of supposed yeast feeding though

grapes can be a source of spores, in season grapes are better, out of

season grapes are worse in this repsect. plain whey is a massive

yeast feeder.

you need a hair test and it is helpful to list your supplementation

in entireity for comments.

you have just swapped one form of overgrowth for another and you can

kill the bacteria or whatever now and something else will come back.

unmodifyed scd without certian supplementation does not work for

autism.

you have not read or worked through my page on skin vitamin d of

course.

i am going to be posting less and relying on my web page more to do

the work of conveying what i know or am working

out ..................................................................

.......................................................................

.........................

of course it is wondeful to post on this baord and just see and read

only what you want to hear

no doubt bismuth will be the new fad.

> Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse?

>

> I am not talking about die-off!

>

> We did another OAT in March and found his arabinose had gone up

> somewhat though it is not super high and he did not have other

markers

> of yeast. He had some behavioural signs such as innapropriate

> giggling, drunken behaviour and spinning. It made some sense to me

> that yeast would increase. He had been on SCD and we had increased

> fruit, squash carrots somewhat.

>

> So I decided to kill yeast naturally. I took out all fruit, squash,

> carrots for 3 weeks and then when I added them back I limited

them. I

> used a bit of GSE and then OoO, Candex, No-Fenol. I used a lot of

raw

> garlic. This was about 6 weeks ago. The giggling and spinning are

> long gone.

>

> BUT, I miss them!!! My son is constantly in a foul mood, constantly

> head banging and hitting himself violently, constantly moaning,

> tantrumming, crying and looking sad. His speech is worse than

ever.

> What is going on? We eliminated the bacteria a while ago and I

> continue to give him high doses of probiotics and peptizyde between

> meals to keep them at bay.

>

> I have heard that yeast protects the brain from mercury. Is this

> mercury? If so, I want his yeast back!!!!!!!But I have also heard

> that the gut bugs are responsible for the ASD symptoms and that the

> metals are the ones that make it hard to get rid of the gut bugs.

> As you can see, I am one confused mom! Any insights would be most

> appreciated.

> Hope

[Guest guest]

,

What is the link to your Web page? (It's helpful to include it in your

posts when you refer to it.)

Thanks! :-)

At 10:31 PM 6/15/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>well i have explained before and no doubt i will explain again but

>

>WHAT IS THE POINT OF KILLING OFF ANYTHING IF IT IS ONLY GOING TO GROW

>AGAIN BECAUSE THE GUT INNATE IMMUNE SYSTEM CANNOT KEEP THE YEAST AND

>BAD BACTERIA DOWN?

>

>

>yeast does not protect the brain from mercury

>

>all that is happening is that the gut innate immune system has

>dropped in function through your interventions and i have to say this

>is the usual effect of most of the supplementation on this board.

>

>i would not limit fruit etc because of supposed yeast feeding though

>grapes can be a source of spores, in season grapes are better, out of

>season grapes are worse in this repsect. plain whey is a massive

>yeast feeder.

>

>you need a hair test and it is helpful to list your supplementation

>in entireity for comments.

>

>

>you have just swapped one form of overgrowth for another and you can

>kill the bacteria or whatever now and something else will come back.

>

>unmodifyed scd without certian supplementation does not work for

>autism.

>

>you have not read or worked through my page on skin vitamin d of

>course.

>

>i am going to be posting less and relying on my web page more to do

>the work of conveying what i know or am working

>out ..................................................................

>.......................................................................

>.........................

>

>of course it is wondeful to post on this baord and just see and read

>only what you want to hear

>

>no doubt bismuth will be the new fad.

>

>

>

>

> > Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse?

> >

> > I am not talking about die-off!

> >

> > We did another OAT in March and found his arabinose had gone up

> > somewhat though it is not super high and he did not have other

>markers

> > of yeast. He had some behavioural signs such as innapropriate

> > giggling, drunken behaviour and spinning. It made some sense to me

> > that yeast would increase. He had been on SCD and we had increased

> > fruit, squash carrots somewhat.

> >

> > So I decided to kill yeast naturally. I took out all fruit, squash,

> > carrots for 3 weeks and then when I added them back I limited

>them. I

> > used a bit of GSE and then OoO, Candex, No-Fenol. I used a lot of

>raw

> > garlic. This was about 6 weeks ago. The giggling and spinning are

> > long gone.

> >

> > BUT, I miss them!!! My son is constantly in a foul mood, constantly

> > head banging and hitting himself violently, constantly moaning,

> > tantrumming, crying and looking sad. His speech is worse than

>ever.

> > What is going on? We eliminated the bacteria a while ago and I

> > continue to give him high doses of probiotics and peptizyde between

> > meals to keep them at bay.

> >

> > I have heard that yeast protects the brain from mercury. Is this

> > mercury? If so, I want his yeast back!!!!!!!But I have also heard

> > that the gut bugs are responsible for the ASD symptoms and that the

> > metals are the ones that make it hard to get rid of the gut bugs.

> > As you can see, I am one confused mom! Any insights would be most

> > appreciated.

> > Hope

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>He had some behavioural signs such as innapropriate giggling,

drunken behaviour and spinning. It made some sense to me that yeast

would increase.

This would make sense and you might have had a milder yeast

overgrowth. How do you know it isn't die-off?

Could he be reacting poorly to the GSE, OoO or one of the enzymes? It

might have been a very dramatic change in input to his body that

triggered the negative reactions, and it pass once he adjusts or you

remove one of the supplements. Some people don't tolerate GSE or OoO

well.

Also what is the total number of enzymes you were giving before and

the total number you ended up giving afterwards? I am trying to count

up the difference and it seems like a lot. The increase in enzymes

may have been great on yeast, yet also started more gut tissue

cleaning out. This cleaning out can cause the negative behavior you

mentioned if done suddenly because it invokes 'detoxing'.

With your patience, a few more questions: Do you give epsom salts (to

help with detox overall); and have his stools changed at all before

the 'yeast treatment' and afterwards? Is there a way you can tell if

bacteria is a problem?

I have never heard or read where yeast protects the brain from

mercury in any way. If you can remember the source for that, you can

send it and see if anyone has comments.

So yes, killing/starving yeast can make things temporarily worse if

detox and cleaning out is done aggressively (good to get rid of the

yeast, but the body might have problems getting the gunk out fast

enough). Or he doesn't tolerate one of the supplements put in. There

might be something else but those are the main ones that stick out.

.

[Guest guest]

> Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse?

Yes.

If you are only addressing certain strains of yeast, but your child

has other strains, the other strains can increase. Or bacteria can

increase.

>>He had some behavioural signs such as innapropriate

> giggling, drunken behaviour and spinning. It made some sense to me

> that yeast would increase. He had been on SCD and we had increased

> fruit, squash carrots somewhat.

In addition to yeast, carrots and other orange fruits and veggies

would have caused this behavior for my son. Try removing all the

orange and green things, see if that helps.

> So I decided to kill yeast naturally. I took out all fruit, squash,

> carrots for 3 weeks and then when I added them back I limited them. I

> used a bit of GSE and then OoO, Candex, No-Fenol. I used a lot of raw

> garlic. This was about 6 weeks ago. The giggling and spinning are

> long gone.

It might be yeast, or eating even the limited quantity of those foods.

> BUT, I miss them!!! My son is constantly in a foul mood, constantly

> head banging and hitting himself violently, constantly moaning,

> tantrumming, crying and looking sad. His speech is worse than ever.

> What is going on?

Was he doing that when you had eliminated those foods? For myself, my

reaction to foods would change every so often, so he might be having a

reaction to the same foods [or yeast], but it might be manifesting

differently. Try eliminating all luteins, see if that helps.

http://www.saras-autism-diet.freeservers.com/Diet/Saras_Diet_I.html

> I have heard that yeast protects the brain from mercury. Is this

> mercury?

I have heard that mercury causes yeast to never really go away until

the mercury is gone.

Dana

[Guest guest]

HOpe, I don't know the answer to the question but all I can say is

that for my son, yes, killing off the yeast did seem to make things

worse. Initially, it did not. Initially, he really benefited from

probiotics, lglutamine. But later on, the more I fought yeast with

things like gse and ooo, then the worse his gut seemed. I think

everything got totally out of proportion in terms of yeast/bad

bacteria/good bacteria ratios, and I think the gse and ooo made the

gut an unfriendly place for the good bacteria, which would then allow

the bad bacteria to gain foothold faster than the good. The more

probiotics I gave him, the more yeasty he was. I figured that some

of the probio's were dying off in the stomach acids, and passing down

into the gi tract " dead " and thus " food " or perhaps a nice " nesting

ground " for the bad bacteria. Either way, he improved once I stopped

giving him probios and stopped using ooo and gse. We then started

using lauricidin, which did seem to fight off yeast, but over time, I

didn't feel he needed it anymore. Then we switched to maimonides

colostrum (the same that mandi/uk uses) and I've been pretty happy

with that. So he rarely gets any probio's anymore and when he does,

I give him the kind that are encapsulated to stay intact and release

in the gut-- such as enzymatic therapy's acidophilus pearls.

Also, using Aqua Flora High Potency did seem to help, too.

HTH,

W

> Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse?

>

> I am not talking about die-off!

>

> We

[Guest guest]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

http://www.modernherbalist.com/heavymetal.html

" Heavy metals such as mercury, cadmium, platinum, arsenic and lead in our

environment collect in our cells and when present in elevated

concentrations, suppress our cell's normal ability to utilize oxygen.

Reduction of cellular respiration often triggers increased yeast

proliferation to compensate for this reduction in energy production. Yeast

overgrowth in bodies challenged by high toxic metal levels, can be

understood as the body's desperate attempt to protect itself against the

ravaging effects of heavy metal poisoning. In such cases, the heavy metal

load on the system must be reduced to free the system of long-term yeast

overgrowth. Individuals with high levels of heavy metals are likely to

suffer if attempting to clear yeast / fungal overgrowth, before first

addressing their elevated heavy metal levels effectively. When yeast is

attacked in such cases, the underlying heavy metal toxicity may cause

symptoms of considerable unwellness. Such symptoms and signs are most often

misinterpreted as yeast die-off reactions. "

[Guest guest]

Basically what that is saying is that we need to take the body's

functioning as a whole and realize that we must discover all underlying

conditions before aggressively launching into a treatment for a single

ailment. In this example, yeast is a significant issue BECAUSE metals

are at the root of the problem, and yeast is providing some protection

from the effects of metals while also having negative effects of its

own. In order to solve the yeast problem, metals must be addressed

first, as the protective aspect of the yeast outweighs the benefit of

ridding the body of the yeast first, which would then allow the full

detrimental effects of the metals. Once the metals are eliminated,

then there is less impetus for the yeast overgrowth, and it can be

eradicated without the rampage the metals would cause. This is another

reason why it is so important to get the entire picture before plunging

into a treatment which may only make matters worse in the long run.

Knowing there is a yeast problem may only be a fraction of this picture.

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004, at 12:34 PM, Carol Lively wrote:

> Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

>

> http://www.modernherbalist.com/heavymetal.html

>

> " Heavy metals such as mercury, cadmium, platinum, arsenic and lead in

> our

> environment collect in our cells and when present in elevated

> concentrations, suppress our cell's normal ability to utilize oxygen.

> Reduction of cellular respiration often triggers increased yeast

> proliferation to compensate for this reduction in energy production.

> Yeast

> overgrowth in bodies challenged by high toxic metal levels, can be

> understood as the body's desperate attempt to protect itself against

> the

> ravaging effects of heavy metal poisoning. In such cases, the heavy

> metal

> load on the system must be reduced to free the system of long-term

> yeast

> overgrowth. Individuals with high levels of heavy metals are likely to

> suffer if attempting to clear yeast / fungal overgrowth, before first

> addressing their elevated heavy metal levels effectively. When yeast is

> attacked in such cases, the underlying heavy metal toxicity may cause

> symptoms of considerable unwellness. Such symptoms and signs are most

> often

> misinterpreted as yeast die-off reactions. "

>

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>yeast is providing some protection from the effects of metals

How does yeast do this? How does it 'protect'?

.

[Guest guest]

This is quite controversial within the scientific community. I have

read in a couple of articles that somehow the body is trying to

naturally chelate the mercury by overproduction of abnormal flora. It

has been observed that the effects of mercury in lab mice are

significantly less pronounced when there is Candida overgrowth. When

the Candida are eliminated, the behavioral and other effects of mercury

are much more severe. Certainly " protect " is a rather nice word to use

for something like yeast, but I suppose it has been used to show that

the mercury is more insidious and that yeast, parasite, etc. protocols

are basically useless until the mercury is removed.

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004, at 02:34 PM, jornmatt wrote:

> >>>yeast is providing some protection from the effects of metals

>

> How does yeast do this? How does it 'protect'?

>

> .

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hope,

I kind of think that if you treat for yeast, then the bad bacteria

flourishes. And when you treat the bad bacteria, yeast flourishes.

I wonder if you have to treat for both at the same time to ensure

that neither the yeast or bad bacteria has the chance to flourish.

> Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse?

>

> I am not talking about die-off!

>

> We did another OAT in March and found his arabinose had gone up

> somewhat though it is not super high and he did not have other

markers

> of yeast. He had some behavioural signs such as innapropriate

> giggling, drunken behaviour and spinning. It made some sense to me

> that yeast would increase. He had been on SCD and we had increased

> fruit, squash carrots somewhat.

>

> So I decided to kill yeast naturally. I took out all fruit,

squash,

> carrots for 3 weeks and then when I added them back I limited

them. I

> used a bit of GSE and then OoO, Candex, No-Fenol. I used a lot of

raw

> garlic. This was about 6 weeks ago. The giggling and spinning are

> long gone.

>

> BUT, I miss them!!! My son is constantly in a foul mood,

constantly

> head banging and hitting himself violently, constantly moaning,

> tantrumming, crying and looking sad. His speech is worse than

ever.

> What is going on? We eliminated the bacteria a while ago and I

> continue to give him high doses of probiotics and peptizyde between

> meals to keep them at bay.

>

> I have heard that yeast protects the brain from mercury. Is this

> mercury? If so, I want his yeast back!!!!!!!But I have also heard

> that the gut bugs are responsible for the ASD symptoms and that the

> metals are the ones that make it hard to get rid of the gut bugs.

> As you can see, I am one confused mom! Any insights would be most

> appreciated.

> Hope

[Guest guest]

poor mice (

>

> > >>>yeast is providing some protection from the effects of metals

> >

> > How does yeast do this? How does it 'protect'?

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> <image.tiff>

> >

> >

> <image.tiff>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I remember reading that gse wiped out both bad and good bacteria (and

yeast) in a petri dish experiment, but I don't have a reference for

that. In other words, it had a " barren earth " effect in that it

wiped out everything. I think, as it has been said here before, that

controlling yeast happens when your immune system is working well.

But I sure don't have the magic answer for how to make the immune

system work well! ;-)

W

--- In , " mprdh2004 " <> I wonder if

you have to treat for both at the same time to ensure

> that neither the yeast or bad bacteria has the chance to flourish.

>

>

[Guest guest]

So what we are really getting at here is that this is much more

debated speculation than established occurrance, right? And yeast

growth may not be 'protecting' the body against mercury or other

toxins at all.

If you even locate the original mouse study reference, I would

appreciate seeing the study. There might be much more to what went on

in the study or in what context this was done. It just isn't making a

lot of sense at the moment. I will write that web site too and see if

they have something substantial to verify this.

.

[Guest guest]

I will try to remember where I saw it. I read hundreds of journal

articles and if they are not directly related to my field I will often

simply do some mental filing. My daughter does not currently have

yeast or mercury issues so it was more of a " Wow, that's interesting "

reaction. It was awhile ago, I think. I do remember that there was a

definite relationship shown between yeast and mercury in that the

presence of yeast mitigated mercury's effects. As to the " how " part, I

honestly can't remember if that was discussed in detail. The " how " and

the " why " are often more difficult to discern, I suppose. Let me know

if you get anything from that web site.

Thanks, .

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004, at 06:18 PM, jornmatt wrote:

> So what we are really getting at here is that this is much more

> debated speculation than established occurrance, right? And yeast

> growth may not be 'protecting' the body against mercury or other

> toxins at all.

>

> If you even locate the original mouse study reference, I would

> appreciate seeing the study. There might be much more to what went on

> in the study or in what context this was done. It just isn't making a

> lot of sense at the moment. I will write that web site too and see if

> they have something substantial to verify this.

>

> .

>

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >>>He had some behavioural signs such as innapropriate giggling,

> drunken behaviour and spinning. It made some sense to me that yeast

> would increase.

>

> This would make sense and you might have had a milder yeast

> overgrowth. How do you know it isn't die-off?

He could he be reacting poorly to the GSE, OoO or one of the enzymes?

It might have been a very dramatic change in input to his body that

> triggered the negative reactions, and it pass once he adjusts or you

> remove one of the supplements. Some people don't tolerate GSE or OoO

> well.

We did this yeast killing regime (GSE, OoO, Enzymes) from mid-April to

mid-May. Then at the end of May we did raw garlic for 1 week. We

ended that 10 days ago. It would be long enough ago to have gotten

over any intolerance. One thing I noticed is that although his stools

were and have always been normal, there were tons of little white

things in his stool during and after the garlic week. They are

getting less now. I don't think they were the garlic because we

didn't chop it up. It might have been yeast or parasite/worm eggs or

something else.

>

> Also what is the total number of enzymes you were giving before and

> the total number you ended up giving afterwards? I am trying to count

> up the difference and it seems like a lot.

Before: approx. 2 Peptizydes, 1 zyme he eats a lot.

During: approx. 3 peptizydes, 1 zyme, 2 no-fenol, 1 Candex

We are back to before levels.

The increase in enzymes

> may have been great on yeast, yet also started more gut tissue

> cleaning out. This cleaning out can cause the negative behavior you

> mentioned if done suddenly because it invokes 'detoxing'.

Hmm. What does this mean? What is gut tissue cleaning out?

>

> With your patience, a few more questions: Do you give epsom salts

(to help with detox overall);

Yes.

and have his stools changed at all before

> the 'yeast treatment' and afterwards?

the white things I mentioned.

Is there a way you can tell if

> bacteria is a problem?

In March we did an OAT and we had eliminated clostridia. We were

doing high doses of probiotics, enzymes and SCD. We have continued

doing these things. He had Klebsiella last summer and we never

retested. It might have gone away just like the Clostridia.

>

> I have never heard or read where yeast protects the brain from

> mercury in any way. If you can remember the source for that, you can

> send it and see if anyone has comments.

I have just heard it mentioned in passing through groups etc.

Thanks .

Hope

[Guest guest]

> > Can Killing/Starving Yeast Make Things Worse?

>

>

> Yes.

>

> If you are only addressing certain strains of yeast, but your child

> has other strains, the other strains can increase.

I have never heard of this. How do you address all the strains of

yeast at once?

> In addition to yeast, carrots and other orange fruits and veggies

> would have caused this behavior for my son. Try removing all the

> orange and green things, see if that helps.

We have already limited his diet due to intolerances, SCD. If I took

out all green and orange things I think he would just be eating meat

(which he is sensitive to in testing), eggplant, onion, cauliflower,

daikon radish, goat yogurt and pears. These are not his favourite

vegetables and he would not eat them all the time. Also, this seems

extreme especially given that he probably has malabsorption. That

being said, I have seen lots of recovery stories that involve taking

green and orange veggies. I wish there were some way of knowing how

he would react. He did not show any sensitivities to these in testing

and he does not have red ears, cheeks.

Thanks Dana,

Hope

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

This might explain my son's behaviour. But I am confused. I thhought

you were supposed to heal the gut and get rid of the bugs before you

chelate. Or should metals be removed in some other way? What's your

opinion?

Hope

>

> > >>>yeast is providing some protection from the effects of metals

> >

> > How does yeast do this? How does it 'protect'?

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> <image.tiff>

> >

> >

> <image.tiff>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> I remember reading that gse wiped out both bad and good bacteria (and

> yeast) in a petri dish experiment, but I don't have a reference for

> that. In other words, it had a " barren earth " effect in that it

> wiped out everything.

My son, not being a petri dish, did not " prove " this theory. Using

GSE with him when there was no yeast, would cause a bad bacteria problem.

I have also learned that there are certain strains of yeast that the

GSE does not address. When I use Lauricidin with him, he gets a yeast

problem that requires GSE, oil of oregano, and uva ursi. It requires

all three of those to keep the yeast under control.

Dana

[Guest guest]

> I have never heard of this. How do you address all the strains of

> yeast at once?

I don't know of anything that would do this. I don't know if you

would really want to, because that would probably cause a bacteria

problem.

I know that GSE helped my son with his " gut-yeast " issues before

chelation. After chelation, the gut-yeast was gone, but now with

anti-virals, he has " brain-yeast " , which requires GSE, oil of oregano,

and uva ursi.

>>I have seen lots of recovery stories that involve taking

> green and orange veggies. I wish there were some way of knowing how

> he would react. He did not show any sensitivities to these in testing

> and he does not have red ears, cheeks.

I don't know if any currently-available tests would give answers for

this specific problem. My son did not have " phenol symptoms " with

orange/green foods, but he did have other issues with them.

This would have been the biggest reason that I would not have been

able to go to SCD.

I agree that it is difficult when your child does not eat much as it is.

Good luck.

Dana

[Guest guest]

What is brain-yeast and what would those symptoms be? Also, where

do you get oil of oregano and/or uva ursi? I tried GSE with my son

and he did not react well at all.

> > I have never heard of this. How do you address all the strains

of

> > yeast at once?

>

>

> I don't know of anything that would do this. I don't know if you

> would really want to, because that would probably cause a bacteria

> problem.

>

> I know that GSE helped my son with his " gut-yeast " issues before

> chelation. After chelation, the gut-yeast was gone, but now with

> anti-virals, he has " brain-yeast " , which requires GSE, oil of

oregano,

> and uva ursi.

>

>

> >>I have seen lots of recovery stories that involve taking

> > green and orange veggies. I wish there were some way of knowing

how

> > he would react. He did not show any sensitivities to these in

testing

> > and he does not have red ears, cheeks.

>

>

> I don't know if any currently-available tests would give answers

for

> this specific problem. My son did not have " phenol symptoms " with

> orange/green foods, but he did have other issues with them.

>

> This would have been the biggest reason that I would not have been

> able to go to SCD.

>

> I agree that it is difficult when your child does not eat much as

it is.

>

> Good luck.

>

> Dana

[Guest guest]

> What is brain-yeast

It is my term for my son's yeast which does not show in the bm, only

in his behaviors.

>>and what would those symptoms be?

For my son, he will wave his hands in front of his eyes, start lining

up objects, be spacy, and lose social skills and language.

>> Also, where

> do you get oil of oregano and/or uva ursi?

My local health food store.

Dana

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/16/2004 3:36:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

clively@... writes:

> such cases, the heavy metal

> load on the system must be reduced to free the system of long-term yeast

> overgrowth. Individuals with high levels of heavy metals are likely to

> suffer if attempting to clear yeast / fungal overgrowth, before first

> addressing their elevated heavy metal levels effectively.

My only thought is that I tried everything to get control of yeast but

couldn't manage it. That failure is what pushed me to chelate. Now, at round 18,

n is still getting yeast but it is more manageable, and when it flares and

I

give him GSE or OoO he no longer has any bad reaction but immediately

improves.

Nell