Re: - a note to you about ABA

[Guest guest]

Thanks Gretchen. To be honest I didn't read the entire archive

before I posted it but I believe I never said ABA was bad -I always

say to proceed with caution for this type of therapy. Yes the one

apraxic child is a member of this group who is from Jersey who's ABA

therapist is in jail for abuse that was caught on tape. But my

passion is more for the defense used for the death of Cameron who's

ABA therapist was highly regarded by other parents if you google her.

http://www.caica.org/DEATHS%20Cameron%20Hamilton%20Main%20Page.htm

My message is to help raise awareness so that situations like this

don't happen again as those are not the only two. We have members

here that are ABA therapists and I recommend ABA therapy or modified

ABA for those that require it. And of course ABA therapists can be

very sweet and caring people. The question I raise; is it the

appropriate therapy for " most " with apraxia? From the archives that

answer appears to be no. In some cases even if the parents love the

ABA therapy and it's very well done (from the archives)

....is it appropriate for an apraxic child? The new member here

that just posted about her child's allergy to soy, the one with the

5 year old...her son is in modified ABA and it sounds like an

awesome program (I spoke with her today) He gets like 40 hours a

week of it too. (Please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong on this

and you don't have to give your name...or make one up)

Anyway -again, he is 5 years old. He is NONVERBAL! When I

suggested she seek other therapy for him she told me how great the

therapists are that work with her son and I told her that it may be

great, but it may not be appropriate for what her 'apraxic and not

autistic " son needs to help bring him a voice.

Most apraxic children have at best 1/2 hour session of speech

therapy seven days a week and occupational therapy for 1/2 hour two

days a week. That's just 4 and 1/2 hours of therapy a week...but

most start talking with just that amount and even with much less if

the therapy is appropriate. "

Are you familiar with the history of ABA? My aunt has her PhD in

nursing and had to watch some of the following- and if you think the

following is hard to read -some had to work in the hospitals where

this happened.

Lovaas (Chance and Lovaas, 1974) reported dramatic success in

treating " untreatable " autistic children by using severe physical

punishment....In the first experiment (Lovaas et al., 1965), two five-

year-old children were placed barefoot on a shock grid floor and

escape-avoidance procedures were initiated. One of the experimenters

stretched out his arms and said, " Come here. " Any movement towards

the experimenter terminated the shock for that trial. If the child

did not move, the second experimenter pushed him in the direction of

the first experimenter and terminated the shock. This escape phase

was followed by an avoidance procedure in which shock was withheld

if the child approached the experimenter within five seconds after

the " come here " command.

http://psychologie.fernuni-hagen.de/Lernportal/Externe_Materialien/Swenson_Opera\

nt_Learning/OL.html

=====

[Guest guest]

Quoting a 34 year old article is a little ridiculous. I'm sure speech

therapy has made some progress in 34 years as I know ABA has. I don't

know of anyone using an ABA program in the year 2008 that include

aversive techniques. My son's program is play based with a heavy

emphasis on rewards. If you haven't seen ABA programs (or verbal

behavior in particular) in the last few years, it's probably best not

to comment.

> Are you familiar with the history of ABA? My aunt has her PhD in

> nursing and had to watch some of the following- and if you think the

> following is hard to read -some had to work in the hospitals where

> this happened.

>

> Lovaas (Chance and Lovaas, 1974) reported dramatic success in

> treating " untreatable " autistic children by using severe physical

> punishment....In the first experiment (Lovaas et al., 1965), two five-

> year-old children were placed barefoot on a shock grid floor and

> escape-avoidance procedures were initiated. One of the experimenters

> stretched out his arms and said, " Come here. " Any movement towards

> the experimenter terminated the shock for that trial. If the child

> did not move, the second experimenter pushed him in the direction of

> the first experimenter and terminated the shock. This escape phase

> was followed by an avoidance procedure in which shock was withheld

> if the child approached the experimenter within five seconds after

> the " come here " command.

[Guest guest]

Hi , thanks for your response. At 1 in the morning, I overreacted

to your post, as I reread it this morning. But, here is the excerpt:

...........................

HE SHOULD NOT BE IN ABA UNLESS HE IS AUTISTIC. It's therapy that is

appropriate for autistic children -

and if he is both autistic and speech impaired (such as apraxic) then

he needs modified ABA by a professional that understands apraxia.

There are members who are posting now that have a child that was not

autistic given ABA and at best it's a waste of time and money -and at

worst you end up with psychological damage on top of the impairment

http://www.cherab.org/news/.html

............................................

The same can be said for OT, PT, ST, medical care and multiple other

therapies that are bad. They are a waste of time and money, and they

can be damaging. I reacted to such a black and white recommendation

as ABA is ONLY for autism. I am a physician who believes that there

is as much gray in life and medicine as there is black and white.

There is almost always a justification for other people's viewpoints.

You have assumed a responsibility of advising others, and you have

acquired a huge fund of knowledge. I hope you recognize how important

even your recommendations are to people on this board. I guess many

in medicine would call me a wimp for not taking a stand on many

issues. There are many alternative treatments I would not choose for

my child, but I also would not say they are unacceptable. The truth

is that the funding is not available to determine whether these

treatments are effective or not, so we end up relying on a lot of

anecdotal evidence. Take vitamin E, for example. I usually address

alternative treatments by trying to educate about the pros and cons

(including financial downsides - that is a big one). You do a lot of

that, but sometimes,well, I think the objectivity gets moved aside. I

just ask you to remember there are a lot of vulnerable people out

here who depend on your guidance. That is a big responsibility.

Your knowledge is amazing. No I didn't know the history of ABA.It's

pretty amazing that kind of thing is part of our recent society. I

know of parents of mildy developmentally delayed children who have

been told in the 21st century (yes, after the year 2000) that their

children weren't worth teaching, they would never amount to anything

useful, and they were stealing resources from children who needed

them more. I know of another mom who in the 1990's was told her child

would not be allowed in the school because of his disability in one

state, so she moved to another and within a week of arrival had a

warrant for her arrest because her son wasn't in school, and she

wouldn't drug him to go to school. How humane is that? That's how we

treat mothers who care about their children enough to stand up for

them. Our society is still not perfect, but hopefully over time, with

lots of caring mothers and other advocates getting their voices

heard, that will change. In contrast, I have heard stories of Down

Syndrome kids who have gone to Ivy League colleges. Thanks for the

hope this board provides to those of us with a long road ahead of us.

Gretchen

, " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

wrote:

>

> Thanks Gretchen. To be honest I didn't read the entire archive

> before I posted it but I believe I never said ABA was bad -I always

> say to proceed with caution for this type of therapy. Yes the one

> apraxic child is a member of this group who is from Jersey who's ABA

> therapist is in jail for abuse that was caught on tape. But my

> passion is more for the defense used for the death of Cameron who's

> ABA therapist was highly regarded by other parents if you google

her.

> http://www.caica.org/DEATHS%20Cameron%20Hamilton%20Main%20Page.htm

>

> My message is to help raise awareness so that situations like this

> don't happen again as those are not the only two. We have members

> here that are ABA therapists and I recommend ABA therapy or modified

> ABA for those that require it. And of course ABA therapists can be

> very sweet and caring people. The question I raise; is it the

> appropriate therapy for " most " with apraxia? From the archives that

> answer appears to be no. In some cases even if the parents love the

> ABA therapy and it's very well done (from the archives)

>

> ...is it appropriate for an apraxic child? The new member here

> that just posted about her child's allergy to soy, the one with the

> 5 year old...her son is in modified ABA and it sounds like an

> awesome program (I spoke with her today) He gets like 40 hours a

> week of it too. (Please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong on this

> and you don't have to give your name...or make one up)

>

> Anyway -again, he is 5 years old. He is NONVERBAL! When I

> suggested she seek other therapy for him she told me how great the

> therapists are that work with her son and I told her that it may be

> great, but it may not be appropriate for what her 'apraxic and not

> autistic " son needs to help bring him a voice.

>

> Most apraxic children have at best 1/2 hour session of speech

> therapy seven days a week and occupational therapy for 1/2 hour two

> days a week. That's just 4 and 1/2 hours of therapy a week...but

> most start talking with just that amount and even with much less if

> the therapy is appropriate. "

>

> Are you familiar with the history of ABA? My aunt has her PhD in

> nursing and had to watch some of the following- and if you think the

> following is hard to read -some had to work in the hospitals where

> this happened.

>

> Lovaas (Chance and Lovaas, 1974) reported dramatic success in

> treating " untreatable " autistic children by using severe physical

> punishment....In the first experiment (Lovaas et al., 1965), two

five-

> year-old children were placed barefoot on a shock grid floor and

> escape-avoidance procedures were initiated. One of the experimenters

> stretched out his arms and said, " Come here. " Any movement towards

> the experimenter terminated the shock for that trial. If the child

> did not move, the second experimenter pushed him in the direction of

> the first experimenter and terminated the shock. This escape phase

> was followed by an avoidance procedure in which shock was withheld

> if the child approached the experimenter within five seconds after

> the " come here " command.

>

> http://psychologie.fernuni-

hagen.de/Lernportal/Externe_Materialien/Swenson_Operant_Learning/OL.ht

ml

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

I would love to see a youtube video of your therapy. Your post makes

a lot of sense.Carolyn

>

> as an aba teacher with a child who is apraxic, ABA was not effiective therapy

for my child. what ABA offers as a teacher who is 10years practiced in it is

the idea that the therapist is at fault if the child is not learning. it

provided a STRONG behavioral approach. a behavioral approach which ALL special

ed teacher, speech teacher, ot and pt should have. People who do not have an

ABA approach tend to focus on how to help the child rather than look for other

reasons. ABA gave me the confidence to handle my child and of course other

clients who are autistic. It gave practical approaches to BEHAVIOR not knee to

knee teaching of cognitive lessons. It is I who is in control not the child

(supernanny fans?!)

> ABA is not ALL about the method of teaching but an approach to learning.

ABA is variable like child.

> should I make a UTUBE video of what I do? please let me know so i could show

you that its as pliable as the children we work with

> get back to me, if more than 10 people respond I will do it. of course with

permission of the child's parents i work with.

> I agree with with children who are just apraxic but agree with those who

have children on the spectrum and are apraxic( I have a taught a child thorugh

aba how to gradually speak who autistic and apraxic) i am on both sides of the

fence.

> love to all

> chris

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Gretchen again -I love the way you share your side! As a

physician I want to get your opinion on how you would view the

following. You know about differential diagnosis. There are

strategies for different conditions -and even though they may appear

to be similar the strategies are different. As a physician I'm sure

you recommend those strategies that work for most.

I typically am not a black and white person and yes most things are

grey in life...but my " no ABA for apraxia " comes not just from my own

observations over time, but from various PhD SLPs that I've either

spoken with or worked with over the years whom I greatly respect. I

called one of them tonight to go over this and not only did she say

ABA is not inappropriate for a motor planning disorder, but she said

that even if one has both autism and apraxia -the ABA should not be

for the speech or motor skills as it's not appropriate. If you are

interested I'd like to put the two of you in touch. She didn't mind

me posting her name here and I typically would.

ABA is not just for autism as it's also used by those with behavioral

issues. As this one doctor said " say they tell the child to go sit

in the chair, if they have a motor impairment and have trouble

getting in the chair that's not a behavioral reason it's a motor

planning one. "

It's fine as well as safe here to state the belief that we all have

to accept whatever works for each child -of course and who would

disagree with that? Of course there are those that fall outside the

norm. For example my son Dakota doesn't get sleepy when he takes

cold medicine that most get sleepy from -he gets hyper. What I am

saying is that some of us who have been here for years have the

ability to share what has worked for 'not' just our child -but the

majority -to make a recommendation based on years of anecdotal

information.

When I write about it's a child who is now an adult and still

nonverbal due to lack of any appropriate therapy while she was

growing up. She got ABA. The family who's child's ABA

therapist is in jail for abuse, or Cameron who was killed by one -

those are horror stories and not typical -but mind you the therapists

that worked in each one of those cases said they were following ABA

protocol and used that as a defense. Both are serving jail times

now -the one a life sentence.

Robin, 's mom, took painless hours and tears to write her

daughter's story which is up on the CHERAB site and what I just

linked to the other day in a post I sent out. She wrote how precious

years of her daughter's life were wasted by the misdiagnosis of

autism and mental retardation which led as it typically does to the

inappropriate ABA therapy which created a huge regression for

. On top of the fact that didn't have therapy to

address her global apraxia until she was much older leaving her

essentially nonverbal with global motor planning deficits -she was

diagnosed with post traumatic stress from the ABA therapy too. In

some ways I believe that Robin was hurt that a new mother in this

group spoke about her daughter's story -her daughter -as if it didn't

relate to her own child who is also apraxic and in ABA. That story

is up there for a reason.

And I'll end this with words of wisdom from another parent who went

down a hard road and tries to help others from making the same

mistakes. Here's information from Jeanne Buesser who's one of

our " old timers "

"

> Hi all.

> Jeanne here. I am a moderator of this group, and also a bereaved

> parent. My surviving children have different diagnosis's one has

> apraxia/adhd/mild aspergers and the younger one is diagnosed with

> pdd-nos a high functioning form of autism. I just wanted to put

my

> two cents in. If I had my choice I wish I had all my kids.Danny

> passed away from a rare cancer at 3 1/2 years ago. It will be 10

> years in Sept 11, 2006. Adam my older son was diagnosed with

apraxia

> and adhd. I definitely wouldn't have given him ABA therapy when he

> was little. He already was frustrated by not being able to talk

when

> he was 2, and diagnosed. My other son Josh who is diagnosed with

> PDD, does have ABA therapy and it is working with him. With Josh,

> you have to get him redirected on a task. If your child is

diagnosed

> with apraxia, and doesn't have any autism tendencies, in my

opinion

> they shouldn't be given ABA therapy. It would only frustrate them,

> to be given a repetitive task they have to do especially if they

> don't talk. On the other hand if they have autistic tendencies and

> ABA is working then something of the childs make up needs that. I

> just wanted to also say that as long as you have a diagnosis you

> will better know how to help your child. But the wrong diagnosis

or

> therapies can hurt them too. Regarding the other mom who gets 40

> hours of ABA therapy and their child does not have autism, I ask

why

> subject your child to a therapy that may not help but only

frustrate

> them. There are some members on this list that have a child with

> apraxia and some who have autism or both. My children even though

> adam was severe with his apraxia has improved along with josh.It

has

> taken a long time.Also there are many degrees of autism from mild

to

> severe too, with other behavioral,food allergies issues.

> Autism/Apraxia is a diagnosis not a incurable disease.

> Jeanne

=====

[Guest guest]

as an aba teacher with a child who is apraxic, ABA was not effiective therapy

for my child. what ABA offers as a teacher who is 10years practiced in it is

the idea that the therapist is at fault if the child is not learning. it

provided a STRONG behavioral approach. a behavioral approach which ALL special

ed teacher, speech teacher, ot and pt should have. People who do not have an

ABA approach tend to focus on how to help the child rather than look for other

reasons. ABA gave me the confidence to handle my child and of course other

clients who are autistic. It gave practical approaches to BEHAVIOR not knee to

knee teaching of cognitive lessons. It is I who is in control not the child

(supernanny fans?!)

ABA is not ALL about the method of teaching but an approach to learning. ABA

is variable like child.

should I make a UTUBE video of what I do? please let me know so i could show

you that its as pliable as the children we work with

get back to me, if more than 10 people respond I will do it. of course with

permission of the child's parents i work with.

I agree with with children who are just apraxic but agree with those who

have children on the spectrum and are apraxic( I have a taught a child thorugh

aba how to gradually speak who autistic and apraxic) i am on both sides of the

fence.

love to all

chris

[ ] Re: - a note to you about ABA

Thanks Gretchen again -I love the way you share your side! As a

physician I want to get your opinion on how you would view the

following. You know about differential diagnosis. There are

strategies for different conditions -and even though they may appear

to be similar the strategies are different. As a physician I'm sure

you recommend those strategies that work for most.

I typically am not a black and white person and yes most things are

grey in life...but my " no ABA for apraxia " comes not just from my own

observations over time, but from various PhD SLPs that I've either

spoken with or worked with over the years whom I greatly respect. I

called one of them tonight to go over this and not only did she say

ABA is not inappropriate for a motor planning disorder, but she said

that even if one has both autism and apraxia -the ABA should not be

for the speech or motor skills as it's not appropriate. If you are

interested I'd like to put the two of you in touch. She didn't mind

me posting her name here and I typically would.

ABA is not just for autism as it's also used by those with behavioral

issues. As this one doctor said " say they tell the child to go sit

in the chair, if they have a motor impairment and have trouble

getting in the chair that's not a behavioral reason it's a motor

planning one. "

It's fine as well as safe here to state the belief that we all have

to accept whatever works for each child -of course and who would

disagree with that? Of course there are those that fall outside the

norm. For example my son Dakota doesn't get sleepy when he takes

cold medicine that most get sleepy from -he gets hyper. What I am

saying is that some of us who have been here for years have the

ability to share what has worked for 'not' just our child -but the

majority -to make a recommendation based on years of anecdotal

information.

When I write about it's a child who is now an adult and still

nonverbal due to lack of any appropriate therapy while she was

growing up. She got ABA. The family who's child's ABA

therapist is in jail for abuse, or Cameron who was killed by one -

those are horror stories and not typical -but mind you the therapists

that worked in each one of those cases said they were following ABA

protocol and used that as a defense. Both are serving jail times

now -the one a life sentence.

Robin, 's mom, took painless hours and tears to write her

daughter's story which is up on the CHERAB site and what I just

linked to the other day in a post I sent out. She wrote how precious

years of her daughter's life were wasted by the misdiagnosis of

autism and mental retardation which led as it typically does to the

inappropriate ABA therapy which created a huge regression for

. On top of the fact that didn't have therapy to

address her global apraxia until she was much older leaving her

essentially nonverbal with global motor planning deficits -she was

diagnosed with post traumatic stress from the ABA therapy too. In

some ways I believe that Robin was hurt that a new mother in this

group spoke about her daughter's story -her daughter -as if it didn't

relate to her own child who is also apraxic and in ABA. That story

is up there for a reason.

And I'll end this with words of wisdom from another parent who went

down a hard road and tries to help others from making the same

mistakes. Here's information from Jeanne Buesser who's one of

our " old timers "

"

> Hi all.

> Jeanne here. I am a moderator of this group, and also a bereaved

> parent. My surviving children have different diagnosis's one has

> apraxia/adhd/ mild aspergers and the younger one is diagnosed with

> pdd-nos a high functioning form of autism. I just wanted to put

my

> two cents in. If I had my choice I wish I had all my kids.Danny

> passed away from a rare cancer at 3 1/2 years ago. It will be 10

> years in Sept 11, 2006. Adam my older son was diagnosed with

apraxia

> and adhd. I definitely wouldn't have given him ABA therapy when he

> was little. He already was frustrated by not being able to talk

when

> he was 2, and diagnosed. My other son Josh who is diagnosed with

> PDD, does have ABA therapy and it is working with him. With Josh,

> you have to get him redirected on a task. If your child is

diagnosed

> with apraxia, and doesn't have any autism tendencies, in my

opinion

> they shouldn't be given ABA therapy. It would only frustrate them,

> to be given a repetitive task they have to do especially if they

> don't talk. On the other hand if they have autistic tendencies and

> ABA is working then something of the childs make up needs that. I

> just wanted to also say that as long as you have a diagnosis you

> will better know how to help your child. But the wrong diagnosis

or

> therapies can hurt them too. Regarding the other mom who gets 40

> hours of ABA therapy and their child does not have autism, I ask

why

> subject your child to a therapy that may not help but only

frustrate

> them. There are some members on this list that have a child with

> apraxia and some who have autism or both. My children even though

> adam was severe with his apraxia has improved along with josh.It

has

> taken a long time.Also there are many degrees of autism from mild

to

> severe too, with other behavioral,food allergies issues.

> Autism/Apraxia is a diagnosis not a incurable disease.

> Jeanne

=====

[Guest guest]

YES YouTube it!!! And thanks for jumping in both as an " old

timer " and as an ABA therapist/mom to an apraxic child. You are of

course one of the caring nice and also most important knowledgeable

ABA therapists in this group that I speak of. How's everything going

with your child today? What type of therapies have you found to be

most effective?

=====

[Guest guest]

There are some samples of ABA on youtube. Google ABA autism youtube.

Some are pretty good and some could be better.

kiddietalk wrote:

> YES YouTube it!!! And thanks for jumping in both as an " old

> timer " and as an ABA therapist/mom to an apraxic child. You are of

> course one of the caring nice and also most important knowledgeable

> ABA therapists in this group that I speak of. How's everything going

> with your child today? What type of therapies have you found to be

> most effective?

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

I would love to see a youtube video also as I have a child who since it is so

difficult for him to talk has stopped trying and every session seems to be about

how to entice him to try.

aigjr@... wrote:

I would love to see a youtube video of your therapy. Your post

makes

a lot of sense.Carolyn

>

> as an aba teacher with a child who is apraxic, ABA was not effiective therapy

for my child. what ABA offers as a teacher who is 10years practiced in it is the

idea that the therapist is at fault if the child is not learning. it provided a

STRONG behavioral approach. a behavioral approach which ALL special ed teacher,

speech teacher, ot and pt should have. People who do not have an ABA approach

tend to focus on how to help the child rather than look for other reasons. ABA

gave me the confidence to handle my child and of course other clients who are

autistic. It gave practical approaches to BEHAVIOR not knee to knee teaching of

cognitive lessons. It is I who is in control not the child (supernanny fans?!)

> ABA is not ALL about the method of teaching but an approach to learning. ABA

is variable like child.

> should I make a UTUBE video of what I do? please let me know so i could show

you that its as pliable as the children we work with

> get back to me, if more than 10 people respond I will do it. of course with

permission of the child's parents i work with.

> I agree with with children who are just apraxic but agree with those who

have children on the spectrum and are apraxic( I have a taught a child thorugh

aba how to gradually speak who autistic and apraxic) i am on both sides of the

fence.

> love to all

> chris

>

>

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Yeah but nothing better than a YouTube video from who has an

apraxic child and knows what to do and not do -and is going to show

how to use ABA therapy for someone that has both autism and apraxia.

=====

[Guest guest]

Yes that would be more appropriate for us. There may be some parents

that have some videos

of their apraxic autistic children in ABA. What is unfortunate for lots

of the autism/apraxic children

is that they lose speech services because they have been in the program

and have yet to

obtain speech. They haven't been given the dx of apraxia too.

I have invited a few moms to come post here that have non verbal

children with autism.

They are wanting to add the fish oils in the right combination to help

their children with speech.

It is sad how some of the childeren with autism are overlooked because

they don't have speech.

As you can see from the videos of the ABA sessions that these children

had autism and but also had speech.

So seeing Chris's ABA sessions will be very helpful to these parents of

children with autism and apraxia.

kiddietalk wrote:

> Yeah but nothing better than a YouTube video from who has an

> apraxic child and knows what to do and not do -and is going to show

> how to use ABA therapy for someone that has both autism and apraxia.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

, just another example of how a mother's gut instinct is so important. I

have been there. Too many times, especially in the beginning, I went along

with what the " experts " said was " right " for my child.

I had a similar experience where my daughter would be denyed something she

wanted or something she wanted to do until she did the task. I had this happen

not just with the ABA people but with a PT, OT, and slp subbing for my

regular slp. In fact this substitute slp restrained my daughter in between her

legs

on the ground and kept her there crying so much that this was the first time

rosacea came out in her face. Soon after that the neurologist who did the

second MRI told us that if a child is spending 60% of her energy on crying, the

brain cannot learn. I didn't let that slp back in my house. Another time the

district's OT was holding my daughter's arm so tightly telling her to " look

at her " that my daughter just cried. I interrupted the session and quoted

what that doctor had told me. I have quoted this many times in fact.

Life is short, and I personally believe that in the afterlife, all our

children will no longer have any issues. I want my daughter to be able to feel

that I helped her as much as I could but I also kept her safe from abuse which

comes in different forms and often from people in authority over our children.

Carolyn

**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.

(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/

2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Guest guest]

you sound great! One of things you said really struck me. You said

that you don't teach these sounds sitting down but jumping or other fun

movements, and that you often use tickling to help things along. I have

mentioned to

therapists many times that tickling and fun interactions, such as jumping

work soooo much better with my daughter than saying " sit down " and physically

restraining her in place and then keeping something she wants from her (like

food or a toy) until she does a task. By and large, she just will not respond

to the nonfun ways.

One day an ABA/VB therapist was in shock because my daughter was on the

trampoline and said, " jump " perfectly. She typically sat her at a little table

and said things like " do this. " Finally, the man who is known for VB, Carbone,

told her to get her away from the table and work with her on the floor

playfully, etc.

Anyway, great post. Carolyn

**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.

(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/

2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Guest guest]

there is so much help for any child that is still nonverbal.

The problem is there isn't enough information about diagnosis -

appropriate therapy for each.

The one PhD SLP I spoke to last night, Dr. Renai Jonas (Ed.D.,

CCC/SLP), said it's " very sad " how many children are being misdiagnosed

as autistic that are not even autistic at all but severe apraxic.

She has helped a number of children that were not verbal at all- even

some children from this group who have parents that have called me

that I passed her number on to -learn to talk. She also said and I

find this interesting - that some of the behaviors that were viewed

as autistic like behaviors -like repetition -went away once the

speech came in. She said that these children are so frustrated in

that they just can't communicate that they develop behaviors.

It's apparent even from the recent messages that most don't know that

there are therapies that are more or less appropriate for the various

conditions. Renai is a consultant with the Palm Beach Country

Schools- Early Intervention -and works with FAU and in my opinion if

someone is fighting misdiagnosis in the schools -she is the one to

advocate. In many ways she reminds me of Dr. Marilyn Agin in the

heart and caring aspect. She's my favorite SLP in all of Florida!

I believe Renai's focus is on selective mutism, but she is very

knowledgeable about working with those who have autism or apraxia.

She is another professional I wish we could clone!

Here's a program she works in for autism

" In addition to the global training and support being offered, we are

also collaborating with others to create a pilot preschool classroom

at B'nai Torah in Boca Raton. We are working with Goldstein

(preschool director), Dr. Renai Jonas (speech-language pathologist),

Parks (autism resource specialist in Palm Beach School

District), Dr. Larocque (Assistant Professor at FAU), as

well as preschool teachers and parents to create a program that

offers enhanced learning opportunities for all children. Other

preschool directors and staff will be invited to visit the classroom

to assist in their efforts to meet the needs of children with autism

spectrum disorders in inclusive settings. Contact Debbie Leach at

(561) 297-2055 or via email: dleach@... for more information "

And just in case anyone needs an awesome SLP in Florida

(and she doesn't just help little ones -she'd help too)

Jonas Therapy Associates

130 Pine Circle

Boca Raton, FL 33432

561 361 0307

Fax: 561 393 6903

Contact: Renai Jonas

=====

[Guest guest]

I completely agree with that. There is a lot of help but unfortunately

there is that umbrella diagnosis of ASD and kids don't always get the

specific services needed.

It is so unfortunate that sometimes we must take a diagnosis to get some

help for our kids when we know that the dx isn't correct. I recently had

my sons turned down for some funding here in Canada because their dx was

ASD and not Autism. How crazy is that? Severity equates services here.

(at least the free ones) Even here in Ontario, I met a mom with a boy

that had apraxia. He went to see the top developmental specialist here

in Ontario. He said because he was three and non verbal he couldn't make

an autism diagnosis. I don't even think he knows how to dx apraxia. He

just wanted her to wait and see. (This little guy could hardly grip on

to the swing, or climb a ladder. He couldn't speak but was social and

happy.) His mom had a book that she bought, (wish I could remember the

name of it), and it was about the autism diagnosis sort of laid out in

alphabetical order. I picked it up and turned to apraxia (she hadn't

looked at the book yet) and said " this is your son. " She read it and

couldn't believe how in a few short minutes after meeting me, she

finally knew what her son had. He did not have autism. He did seem to be

in pain as most autism children I have seen. (Due to their extremely

damaged guts.) Now she had direction. She hired a private speech

therapist and they are now on the road to speech. (Unfortunately, she

doesn't believe in the supplemental fish oils, won't even try it.)

Many autistic kids (once their damaged guts have healed) that are non

verbal, are often just left with the apraxia. (sometimes the speech

comes too but sometimes not.) This is why I am trying to get the moms of

some the kids with autism and apraxia to join this group. Doing all the

biomedical stuff with their kids and having them come out of their fog

and become relieved from the pain, may not address the speech issues.

This is where the specific omega oil treatment with E that you have

outlined may help them.

Having said that, these moms have brought their children a long way

with diet and supplement approaches. I know that pure apraxia and

perhaps SID can be addressed with the omega supplements and E, but these

kids needed more and more is what has brought them this far.

I hope you will help them with their questions about their child's apraxia.

kiddietalk wrote:

> there is so much help for any child that is still nonverbal.

> The problem is there isn't enough information about diagnosis -

> appropriate therapy for each.

>

> The one PhD SLP I spoke to last night, Dr. Renai Jonas (Ed.D.,

> CCC/SLP), said it's " very sad " how many children are being misdiagnosed

> as autistic that are not even autistic at all but severe apraxic.

> She has helped a number of children that were not verbal at all- even

> some children from this group who have parents that have called me

> that I passed her number on to -learn to talk. She also said and I

> find this interesting - that some of the behaviors that were viewed

> as autistic like behaviors -like repetition -went away once the

> speech came in. She said that these children are so frustrated in

> that they just can't communicate that they develop behaviors.

>

> It's apparent even from the recent messages that most don't know that

> there are therapies that are more or less appropriate for the various

> conditions. Renai is a consultant with the Palm Beach Country

> Schools- Early Intervention -and works with FAU and in my opinion if

> someone is fighting misdiagnosis in the schools -she is the one to

> advocate. In many ways she reminds me of Dr. Marilyn Agin in the

> heart and caring aspect. She's my favorite SLP in all of Florida!

>

> I believe Renai's focus is on selective mutism, but she is very

> knowledgeable about working with those who have autism or apraxia.

> She is another professional I wish we could clone!

>

> Here's a program she works in for autism

> " In addition to the global training and support being offered, we are

> also collaborating with others to create a pilot preschool classroom

> at B'nai Torah in Boca Raton. We are working with Goldstein

> (preschool director), Dr. Renai Jonas (speech-language pathologist),

> Parks (autism resource specialist in Palm Beach School

> District), Dr. Larocque (Assistant Professor at FAU), as

> well as preschool teachers and parents to create a program that

> offers enhanced learning opportunities for all children. Other

> preschool directors and staff will be invited to visit the classroom

> to assist in their efforts to meet the needs of children with autism

> spectrum disorders in inclusive settings. Contact Debbie Leach at

> (561) 297-2055 or via email: dleach@... for more information "

>

> And just in case anyone needs an awesome SLP in Florida

> (and she doesn't just help little ones -she'd help too)

>

> Jonas Therapy Associates

> 130 Pine Circle

> Boca Raton, FL 33432

> 561 361 0307

> Fax: 561 393 6903

> Contact: Renai Jonas

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

thanks girls! Being that I work in a school, I have to ask the school if its

ok.... I have one client now who fits the diagnose for a child with PDD/ADHD and

I think he's apraxic(he is not diagnosed). I try to get on it ASAP. Just a note

though, it takes a long time to get initial sounds out these little guys so be

patient with me about the progress. I sometimes have a brake up a sound itself.

for example /a/ (apron) i would first ask say aaaaa then after that's mastered I

would day aaaaaeeeeeeee. Its hard for the little guys to change their mouth to

the eeee sound from the aaaa sound. I also will not ask in the chair, I ask them

when they are playing or we will jump around, or we will sing it. I mark all

these different ways as one trial. One of the most effective ways I used was

when I tickle them. I tickle them and they want more I'll ask then because #1

they want more tickles and its a lot of fun (doesn't seem like work if they are

laughing) I

have to say I have a good time too.

therapies that worked for . as i said before his progress was really slow

but it better now that he's older. the #1 thing that helps is working on one

sound alone. for example he has problems with initial sounds on words and

multisyalbic words. so his therapist will give words with the initial sounds on

it. we are recently working /th/ sound. so he will say th-at. with all the

inital sounds he still seperates them when he connects them to the words but

that's progress for us. asking him to talk slowly. we also have to build his

confidence to speak as well. sometimes he would rather say I don't know then

work to answer the question. we recently took him AIT (auditory training).

still waiting to see if he is processing better. I'll let you know. My job as a

mom is work him at home. not letting him give up. sometimes waiting until he

tries to answer me instead of i don't know. we taught him some techniques when

we don't understand him:

draw it, what letter does it start with, go get the item. he still has lots of

temper tantrums about not being understood and we taught breathing tecniques to

calm himself down. His first reaction is to try one more time instead of

hitting. he screams and cries now but every year it gets better. (maturity) He

has other things going on too, so he has a lot on his plate. he is soon going

on lamictol, which is a drug that helps with his nerve endings. his

psychiatrist said that his nerves are shot and very sad boy. He has low self

esteem and extreme anxiety. it brakes my heart to see him at 7 have extreme

anxiety but getting him on this med hopefully will help him. I am not fond of

meds but in his case i think it will give the peace he needs to learn. we

probably are going to start it in a coupla weeks.

thanks for all the nice things you said....

chris

Re: [ ] Re: - a note to you about ABA

Yes that would be more appropriate for us. There may be some parents

that have some videos

of their apraxic autistic children in ABA. What is unfortunate for lots

of the autism/apraxic children

is that they lose speech services because they have been in the program

and have yet to

obtain speech. They haven't been given the dx of apraxia too.

I have invited a few moms to come post here that have non verbal

children with autism.

They are wanting to add the fish oils in the right combination to help

their children with speech.

It is sad how some of the childeren with autism are overlooked because

they don't have speech.

As you can see from the videos of the ABA sessions that these children

had autism and but also had speech.

So seeing Chris's ABA sessions will be very helpful to these parents of

children with autism and apraxia.

kiddietalk wrote:

> Yeah but nothing better than a YouTube video from who has an

> apraxic child and knows what to do and not do -and is going to show

> how to use ABA therapy for someone that has both autism and apraxia.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

do you use the Kaufman approach? Tom from NSS just posted

about upcoming Kaufman conferences -put that below. The Kaufman

approach has always been amazing for apraxia -just about any late

talker as it works with the natural hierarchy of speech. I recall

that it's now being taught how to use the Kaufman approach for

children with autism through ABA...Just curious when you talk about

breaking down the words. Let me know as I'm sure this would be a

great topic to talk about (?) And for those that don't know the

fabulous K

http://www.cherab.org/information/speechlanguage/advisorykaufman.html

Increasing speech intelligibility in children with apraxia of speech

Kaufman will present The Kaufman Early Intervention Program for

Children with Apraxia of Speech in the following cities this spring.

For those who haven't seen her present, is highly recommended by

past participants of her workshops. In addition to maintaining her

nationally recognized clinic in Michigan, has been speaking

throughout the US and abroad sharing her proven techniques for

increasing speech intelligibility in children with apraxia of speech.

is an expert in this area and a very lively presenter. She

really

is a must see for parents of children with apraxia of speech and the

SLPs who treat this population. For registration information, click

the

links below or call Northern Speech Services at 888.337.3866. You can

also visit 's website at www.kidspeech.com

<http://www.kidspeech.com/> .

Ft. Wayne, IN ~ March 7, 2008

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000775

Hartford, CT ~ March 14, 2008

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000776

Albuquerque, NM ~ April 4, 2008

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000777

Toronto, Ontario ~ April 11, 2008

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000778

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000778>

Spokane, WA ~ April 25, 2008

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000825

Portland, ME ~ May 2, 2008

http://www.nss-nrs.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/NSS.woa/wa/Seminars/detail?id=1000817

Sponsored by:

Northern Speech Services, Inc.

Phone: 888.337.3866

Email: info@...

Website: www.nss-nrs.com

=====

[Guest guest]

any luck with them letting you do the video?

=====

[Guest guest]

unfourtuntely, they did not approve. Its in their school, so if anything goes

wrong they would be liable. I'll let you know when i get a client I teach at

home.

My client i work with in the school is progressing great. He is saying Dora,

saying ahhh, opening his mouth, saying book(something like boi). I do work with

him in chair because he walks all over the place and he acually will go to the

chair on his own ( I have some really great dora books he likes). At first I

used food to get him to open his mouth now he will do 3 without using food. I

use all different things to reinforce him, books, food, getting out the chair to

play,tickles and of course verbal praise. I started a program where he will

point to pictures in a book, and while we did that i would say " dora " but all he

had to do is point to dora. now he is saying it. I keep the books in my bag

and he is a great pointer, I think he even has a point that is yelling LOL.

first i would withhold the book ask him " what do you want " he points he gets

it, now I will withhold the book and want a verbalization, he does anything with

his voice I give it to

him, oh I will say book over over again, now he is saying boi (book). I am so

proud of him. He does get frustrated but sooo proud of himself when he says

something.

I do want to address the social emotional part of children who have apraxia.

this child i work with was not expected to use his voice so he is used to either

pointing or just grabbing and running away. so withholding and yes frustrating

him a little is necesarry to expect him to speak. not words but even a grunt.

From a very early age these kids know they are not understood. this little guy

will literally shut down, look away from me and sit there. Then i know i pushed

him too hard. so i back off. we do have the respect of each other. I will have a

high expectation that he will at least try. once you get i'll try most of the

battle is over because they are being understood. you have to build their self

confidence. they have to know you won't give up on them and they in turn will

not give up either.

I can update you peridioicly about his progress if you like, he is catching on

so fast that I can probably update every week.

sorry that i could not show what i do, but maybe some day.

chris

[ ] Re: - a note to you about ABA

any luck with them letting you do the video?

=====