Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 some years ago, I had a treadmill test, they had to stop it, as I could not go the distance, legs started to turn to rubber (lets not forget the pain) and I went out of breath, this was a hart test. any one know what the distence would be that one would have traveled? markb --- Steve micro_choice@...> wrote: > Alice and Laurie > > I'm astonished that you would even consider doing a > treadmill. For myself, > I'm completely terrified of one. > > When I do anything physical, I'm not just weak. > There's also a certain point > where, if I exceed that just a little, I feel like > I'm about to die. Really. > Dizzy doesn't even begin to describe it. I almost > pass out (on a few > occasions I actually have), and it's NOT pretty. > There's no " seeing stars " > or anything, just a horrible feeling of being totally > out of control. > Absolute immediate rest has so far " brought me back " , > but I live in fear of > this. I imagine that it's not just my skeletal > muscles that are so wiped > out, but that it's also ALMOST stopping my diaphragm > (for breathing) and my > heart (for the obvious). > > I've acquired an ability to see this coming, sort of, > and I'm cautious to > stop just short of it. Which doesn't always succeed, > but at least next time > I know even better where that line is. The warning > signs are not obvious. I > think healthy people, when they are starting to get > REAL exhausted, still do > so rather gradually. I've seen people virtually > collapse, say at the end of > a long race, but they don't seem to have any FEAR of > that. In my body, I not > only have a VASTLY lower threshold of energy > expended, but I also have this > sense of how easy it is to accidentally go WAY over > the line. It's sort of > like the way drinking too much alcohol sometimes > happens. By the time you > realize that you shouldn't have had that last large > chug :-) you're way too > far gone, and there you lie on the bathroom floor, > frantically negotiating > with your higher power ( " Dear God, please, I'll never > never do this again, > if only you won't let me pass out " ). > > Maybe what I've described is commonplace with you > two, and you're just very > brave. In any case, my hat's off to you. I've just > had a CV doc call to > cancel an appointment, and I'm still pondering what > to say if he wants to do > a treadmill. I know there is the so-called chemical > method, but I think the > point of that is still to stimulate the heart into > beating much faster. This > is supposedly safe, in the average population. But > I've learned to beware > that phrase. What if it is a disaster in mito people? > What do I get then, a > headstone that says " Wow, we sure didn't see THAT > coming. " ? > > Regards > Steve D. > > > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:48:48 -0500 > > From: Laureta Fitzgerald > lfitzger@...> > > Subject: Re: update > > > > Alice > > > > I feel better that it is minor, but was hoping to > know more after the > > appointment. I am not looking forward to the > treadmill. My guess is that I > > will make it about 2 minutes and have to stop, but > it might be one of my > > better days - who knows. > > > > laurie > > > > > > > > Reply-To: > > > Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:04 -0700 > > > To: > > > > Subject: Re: update > > > > > > Laurie, > > > > > > This sounds promising except I wish you didn't > have to deal with it at > all. I > > > guess you'll know more after the CT scan. I > wouldn't be looking forward > to > > > the treadmill testing. That's not one I could do. > I guess you probably > feel a > > > little better after this appointment, don't you? > > > > > > Alice > > > > > > I saw the pulmonologist that my neuro wanted me > to see. In looking at my > CT > > > films, he feels the scaring in my lungs was minor > and probably due to > the > > > mito. He ordered a lung specific CT that will be > done both on my back > and on > > > my stomach. I also will have a pre and post 6 > min. treadmill pulmonary > > > function test and then see him. It probably won't > be for a couple of > months. > > > > > > laurie > ===== Three things are certain: Death, Taxes and Lost Data. Guess which has occurred. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Hi Steve, I can relate to what you're talking about. Sometimes I get this feeling if I'm dehydrated and sometimes it comes on by itself. I've learned to work around it. Obviously, you should discuss any exercise program with your doctors. However, I found that if I gradually increased my exercise (first outside because I was afraid I'd wipe out on the treadmill) over a few years time, I was able to get to the point I am now where I can actually jog 3-6 miles several days per week. I walk an additional two days and rest one. I also was able to increase my strength in my arms by starting with canned foods and ultimately dumbells. All of the specialists and researchers incourage us to exercise. You might have to have supervised exercise with a therapist to start. This way they can monitor your progress and hopefully prevent you from crashing. It's essential that you get some sort of exercise to avoid losing the muscle you have. I've been able to gain some muscle and only have severe weakness when I get an infection or metabolic crash. I've by far increased my overall mobility. Hang in there and remember to keep your doctors informed about your condition ! bug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Thanks ! Fear of more pneumonia has pushed me a little harder to increase my aerobic capacity. Also fear of losing my independance. Believe me, it's taken a few years to figure out what too much is. I used to crash all the time from over-exercise. I've always exercised though so it's mentally ingrained in me to push through when you don't feel like it. Every time I start it's like day 1 and I honestly hate it. After a few minutes of my body adjusting though I absolutely love it. On occasion I have to stop the jogging because of my bad hip, but I have a fantastic treadmill and my body seems to be recovering much faster than it used to. Every once in a while I take two days off in a row if I need it. Never more than that. Even when I have had pneumonia I forced myself to walk a little bit each day slowly on the treadmill and made a much quicker recovery than expected. I know it seems like an impossible thing to ask your body to exercise. I take chemo drugs for Lupus and that on top of the Mito seems like more than I can bare at times. The proof is in the puding as they say because I no longer use a cane for support and I was the top finisher in a 5k walk recently. You can do it ! bug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I just had the cardiac variety a few weeks ago. I was supposed to have an adenosine cardiac stress test, where they inject something to raise the heart rate. I was getting panicky about having side effects from that, and asked for more details on the traditional treadmill test. For the cardiac stress test, it was a pretty fast walking pace to start, then got harder as they increased the incline and speed. Total time was around 8 minutes I think. They made me drink a full glass of water afterwards, before they let me get up from sitting (after the test was over). Is this the test you will have done? http://www.chfpatients.com/tests/vo2.htm Take care, RH > > > Alice and Laurie > > > > I'm astonished that you would even consider doing a > > treadmill. For myself, > > I'm completely terrified of one. > > > > When I do anything physical, I'm not just weak. > > There's also a certain point > > where, if I exceed that just a little, I feel like > > I'm about to die. Really. > > Dizzy doesn't even begin to describe it. I almost > > pass out (on a few > > occasions I actually have), and it's NOT pretty. > > There's no " seeing stars " > > or anything, just a horrible feeling of being totally > > out of control. > > Absolute immediate rest has so far " brought me back " , > > but I live in fear of > > this. I imagine that it's not just my skeletal > > muscles that are so wiped > > out, but that it's also ALMOST stopping my diaphragm > > (for breathing) and my > > heart (for the obvious). > > > > I've acquired an ability to see this coming, sort of, > > and I'm cautious to > > stop just short of it. Which doesn't always succeed, > > but at least next time > > I know even better where that line is. The warning > > signs are not obvious. I > > think healthy people, when they are starting to get > > REAL exhausted, still do > > so rather gradually. I've seen people virtually > > collapse, say at the end of > > a long race, but they don't seem to have any FEAR of > > that. In my body, I not > > only have a VASTLY lower threshold of energy > > expended, but I also have this > > sense of how easy it is to accidentally go WAY over > > the line. It's sort of > > like the way drinking too much alcohol sometimes > > happens. By the time you > > realize that you shouldn't have had that last large > > chug :-) you're way too > > far gone, and there you lie on the bathroom floor, > > frantically negotiating > > with your higher power ( " Dear God, please, I'll never > > never do this again, > > if only you won't let me pass out " ). > > > > Maybe what I've described is commonplace with you > > two, and you're just very > > brave. In any case, my hat's off to you. I've just > > had a CV doc call to > > cancel an appointment, and I'm still pondering what > > to say if he wants to do > > a treadmill. I know there is the so-called chemical > > method, but I think the > > point of that is still to stimulate the heart into > > beating much faster. This > > is supposedly safe, in the average population. But > > I've learned to beware > > that phrase. What if it is a disaster in mito people? > > What do I get then, a > > headstone that says " Wow, we sure didn't see THAT > > coming. " ? > > > > Regards > > Steve D. > > > > > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:48:48 -0500 > > > From: Laureta Fitzgerald > > > > > Subject: Re: update > > > > > > Alice > > > > > > I feel better that it is minor, but was hoping to > > know more after the > > > appointment. I am not looking forward to the > > treadmill. My guess is that I > > > will make it about 2 minutes and have to stop, but > > it might be one of my > > > better days - who knows. > > > > > > laurie > > > > > > > From: " A ADAMS " > > > > Reply-To: > > > > Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:04 -0700 > > > > To: > > > > > Subject: Re: update > > > > > > > > Laurie, > > > > > > > > This sounds promising except I wish you didn't > > have to deal with it at > > all. I > > > > guess you'll know more after the CT scan. I > > wouldn't be looking forward > > to > > > > the treadmill testing. That's not one I could do. > > I guess you probably > > feel a > > > > little better after this appointment, don't you? > > > > > > > > Alice > > > > > > > > I saw the pulmonologist that my neuro wanted me > > to see. In looking at my > > CT > > > > films, he feels the scaring in my lungs was minor > > and probably due to > > the > > > > mito. He ordered a lung specific CT that will be > > done both on my back > > and on > > > > my stomach. I also will have a pre and post 6 > > min. treadmill pulmonary > > > > function test and then see him. It probably won't > > be for a couple of > > months. > > > > > > > > laurie > > > > > ===== > Three things are certain: > Death, Taxes and Lost Data. > Guess which has occurred. > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Steve I'm not looking forward to the walking, but will do my best for as long as I can and hope it provides some information. I'll let you know once I have the results. Don't even have the appointment yet. laurie > > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:36 -0500 > To: > > Subject: treadmill testing > > Alice and Laurie > > I'm astonished that you would even consider doing a treadmill. For myself, > I'm completely terrified of one. > > When I do anything physical, I'm not just weak. There's also a certain point > where, if I exceed that just a little, I feel like I'm about to die. Really. > Dizzy doesn't even begin to describe it. I almost pass out (on a few > occasions I actually have), and it's NOT pretty. There's no " seeing stars " > or anything, just a horrible feeling of being totally out of control. > Absolute immediate rest has so far " brought me back " , but I live in fear of > this. I imagine that it's not just my skeletal muscles that are so wiped > out, but that it's also ALMOST stopping my diaphragm (for breathing) and my > heart (for the obvious). > > I've acquired an ability to see this coming, sort of, and I'm cautious to > stop just short of it. Which doesn't always succeed, but at least next time > I know even better where that line is. The warning signs are not obvious. I > think healthy people, when they are starting to get REAL exhausted, still do > so rather gradually. I've seen people virtually collapse, say at the end of > a long race, but they don't seem to have any FEAR of that. In my body, I not > only have a VASTLY lower threshold of energy expended, but I also have this > sense of how easy it is to accidentally go WAY over the line. It's sort of > like the way drinking too much alcohol sometimes happens. By the time you > realize that you shouldn't have had that last large chug :-) you're way too > far gone, and there you lie on the bathroom floor, frantically negotiating > with your higher power ( " Dear God, please, I'll never never do this again, > if only you won't let me pass out " ). > > Maybe what I've described is commonplace with you two, and you're just very > brave. In any case, my hat's off to you. I've just had a CV doc call to > cancel an appointment, and I'm still pondering what to say if he wants to do > a treadmill. I know there is the so-called chemical method, but I think the > point of that is still to stimulate the heart into beating much faster. This > is supposedly safe, in the average population. But I've learned to beware > that phrase. What if it is a disaster in mito people? What do I get then, a > headstone that says " Wow, we sure didn't see THAT coming. " ? > > Regards > Steve D. > >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:48:48 -0500 >> >> Subject: Re: update >> >> Alice >> >> I feel better that it is minor, but was hoping to know more after the >> appointment. I am not looking forward to the treadmill. My guess is that I >> will make it about 2 minutes and have to stop, but it might be one of my >> better days - who knows. >> >> laurie >> >>> >>> Reply-To: >>> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:04 -0700 >>> To: > >>> Subject: Re: update >>> >>> Laurie, >>> >>> This sounds promising except I wish you didn't have to deal with it at > all. I >>> guess you'll know more after the CT scan. I wouldn't be looking forward > to >>> the treadmill testing. That's not one I could do. I guess you probably > feel a >>> little better after this appointment, don't you? >>> >>> Alice >>> >>> I saw the pulmonologist that my neuro wanted me to see. In looking at my > CT >>> films, he feels the scaring in my lungs was minor and probably due to > the >>> mito. He ordered a lung specific CT that will be done both on my back > and on >>> my stomach. I also will have a pre and post 6 min. treadmill pulmonary >>> function test and then see him. It probably won't be for a couple of > months. >>> >>> laurie > > > Medical advice, information, opinions, data and statements contained herein > are not necessarily those of the list moderators. The author of this e mail is > entirely responsible for its content. List members are reminded of their > responsibility to evaluate the content of the postings and consult with their > physicians regarding changes in their own treatment. > > Personal attacks are not permitted on the list and anyone who sends one is > automatically moderated or removed depending on the severity of the attack. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Laurie, I am scheduled for a treadmill test too, if the cardio office ever calls me back to book it. The last stress test I had was on the recumbant bicycle, and it was totally uninformative. Of course my thighs gave out very early in the study, and it had to be stopped. It was just sooo painful, I could just not push with my legs. I am glad I stopped. Neither that cardio nor I knew anything about possible muscle damage ( I can't spell that rhamby...word right now) with sustained strong muscle effort. (I am always careful to rest enough in between sets of my muscle building regimen). Anyway, I am very interested in knowing how they did your stress test. For people with skeletal muscle weakness.I don't understand how they can tell the difference between our skeletal muscles getting tired, and the heart being overly challenged, This time a different cadio will do it, and he said he personally will watch. He is supposed to be in touch with the mito doc here, but..... we will see It will be helpful to know of your experience, Laurie. Regards Sunny > Steve > > I'm not looking forward to the walking, but will do my best for as > long as I > can and hope it provides some information. I'll let you know once I > have the > results. Don't even have the appointment yet. > > laurie > > > > > Reply-To: > > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:36 -0500 > > To: > > > Subject: treadmill testing > > > > Alice and Laurie > > > > I'm astonished that you would even consider doing a treadmill. For > myself, > > I'm completely terrified of one. > > > > When I do anything physical, I'm not just weak. There's also a > certain point > > where, if I exceed that just a little, I feel like I'm about to > die. Really. > > Dizzy doesn't even begin to describe it. I almost pass out (on a few > > occasions I actually have), and it's NOT pretty. There's no " seeing > stars " > > or anything, just a horrible feeling of being totally out of > control. > > Absolute immediate rest has so far " brought me back " , but I live in > fear of > > this. I imagine that it's not just my skeletal muscles that are so > wiped > > out, but that it's also ALMOST stopping my diaphragm (for > breathing) and my > > heart (for the obvious). > > > > I've acquired an ability to see this coming, sort of, and I'm > cautious to > > stop just short of it. Which doesn't always succeed, but at least > next time > > I know even better where that line is. The warning signs are not > obvious. I > > think healthy people, when they are starting to get REAL exhausted, > still do > > so rather gradually. I've seen people virtually collapse, say at > the end of > > a long race, but they don't seem to have any FEAR of that. In my > body, I not > > only have a VASTLY lower threshold of energy expended, but I also > have this > > sense of how easy it is to accidentally go WAY over the line. It's > sort of > > like the way drinking too much alcohol sometimes happens. By the > time you > > realize that you shouldn't have had that last large chug :-) you're > way too > > far gone, and there you lie on the bathroom floor, frantically > negotiating > > with your higher power ( " Dear God, please, I'll never never do this > again, > > if only you won't let me pass out " ). > > > > Maybe what I've described is commonplace with you two, and you're > just very > > brave. In any case, my hat's off to you. I've just had a CV doc > call to > > cancel an appointment, and I'm still pondering what to say if he > wants to do > > a treadmill. I know there is the so-called chemical method, but I > think the > > point of that is still to stimulate the heart into beating much > faster. This > > is supposedly safe, in the average population. But I've learned to > beware > > that phrase. What if it is a disaster in mito people? What do I get > then, a > > headstone that says " Wow, we sure didn't see THAT coming. " ? > > > > Regards > > Steve D. > > > >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:48:48 -0500 > >> > >> Subject: Re: update > >> > >> Alice > >> > >> I feel better that it is minor, but was hoping to know more after > the > >> appointment. I am not looking forward to the treadmill. My guess > is that I > >> will make it about 2 minutes and have to stop, but it might be one > of my > >> better days - who knows. > >> > >> laurie > >> > >>> > >>> Reply-To: > >>> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:04 -0700 > >>> To: > > >>> Subject: Re: update > >>> > >>> Laurie, > >>> > >>> This sounds promising except I wish you didn't have to deal with > it at > > all. I > >>> guess you'll know more after the CT scan. I wouldn't be looking > forward > > to > >>> the treadmill testing. That's not one I could do. I guess you > probably > > feel a > >>> little better after this appointment, don't you? > >>> > >>> Alice > >>> > >>> I saw the pulmonologist that my neuro wanted me to see. In > looking at my > > CT > >>> films, he feels the scaring in my lungs was minor and probably > due to > > the > >>> mito. He ordered a lung specific CT that will be done both on my > back > > and on > >>> my stomach. I also will have a pre and post 6 min. treadmill > pulmonary > >>> function test and then see him. It probably won't be for a couple > of > > months. > >>> > >>> laurie > > > > > > Medical advice, information, opinions, data and statements > contained herein > > are not necessarily those of the list moderators. The author of > this e mail is > > entirely responsible for its content. List members are reminded of > their > > responsibility to evaluate the content of the postings and consult > with their > > physicians regarding changes in their own treatment. > > > > Personal attacks are not permitted on the list and anyone who sends > one is > > automatically moderated or removed depending on the severity of the > attack. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Sunny For my cardio stress test, they used the chemicals and got what was wanted by doing it in conjection with a pre and post scan. The treadmill test that I am having has been ordered by the pulmonologist. I will have pulmonary function tests before and after the exercise. He is trying to sort out how much of the air hunger is due to the mito and how much is due to the lung scarring I have. laurie > From: z39z@... > Reply-To: > Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:49:05 -0500 > To: > Subject: Re: treadmill testing > > > Laurie, > > I am scheduled for a treadmill test too, if the cardio office ever > calls me back to book it. The last stress test I had was on the > recumbant bicycle, and it was totally uninformative. Of course my > thighs gave out very early in the study, and it had to be stopped. It > was just sooo painful, I could just not push with my legs. I am glad I > stopped. Neither that cardio nor I knew anything about possible > muscle damage ( I can't spell that rhamby...word right now) with > sustained strong muscle effort. (I am always careful to rest enough in > between sets of my muscle building regimen). Anyway, I am very > interested in knowing how they did your stress test. For people with > skeletal muscle weakness.I don't understand how they can tell the > difference between our skeletal muscles getting tired, and the heart > being overly challenged, This time a different cadio will do it, and > he said he personally will watch. He is supposed to be in touch with > the mito doc here, but..... we will see > > It will be helpful to know of your experience, Laurie. > > Regards > Sunny > >> Steve >> >> I'm not looking forward to the walking, but will do my best for as >> long as I >> can and hope it provides some information. I'll let you know once I >> have the >> results. Don't even have the appointment yet. >> >> laurie >> >>> >>> Reply-To: >>> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:36 -0500 >>> To: > >>> Subject: treadmill testing >>> >>> Alice and Laurie >>> >>> I'm astonished that you would even consider doing a treadmill. For >> myself, >>> I'm completely terrified of one. >>> >>> When I do anything physical, I'm not just weak. There's also a >> certain point >>> where, if I exceed that just a little, I feel like I'm about to >> die. Really. >>> Dizzy doesn't even begin to describe it. I almost pass out (on a few >>> occasions I actually have), and it's NOT pretty. There's no " seeing >> stars " >>> or anything, just a horrible feeling of being totally out of >> control. >>> Absolute immediate rest has so far " brought me back " , but I live in >> fear of >>> this. I imagine that it's not just my skeletal muscles that are so >> wiped >>> out, but that it's also ALMOST stopping my diaphragm (for >> breathing) and my >>> heart (for the obvious). >>> >>> I've acquired an ability to see this coming, sort of, and I'm >> cautious to >>> stop just short of it. Which doesn't always succeed, but at least >> next time >>> I know even better where that line is. The warning signs are not >> obvious. I >>> think healthy people, when they are starting to get REAL exhausted, >> still do >>> so rather gradually. I've seen people virtually collapse, say at >> the end of >>> a long race, but they don't seem to have any FEAR of that. In my >> body, I not >>> only have a VASTLY lower threshold of energy expended, but I also >> have this >>> sense of how easy it is to accidentally go WAY over the line. It's >> sort of >>> like the way drinking too much alcohol sometimes happens. By the >> time you >>> realize that you shouldn't have had that last large chug :-) you're >> way too >>> far gone, and there you lie on the bathroom floor, frantically >> negotiating >>> with your higher power ( " Dear God, please, I'll never never do this >> again, >>> if only you won't let me pass out " ). >>> >>> Maybe what I've described is commonplace with you two, and you're >> just very >>> brave. In any case, my hat's off to you. I've just had a CV doc >> call to >>> cancel an appointment, and I'm still pondering what to say if he >> wants to do >>> a treadmill. I know there is the so-called chemical method, but I >> think the >>> point of that is still to stimulate the heart into beating much >> faster. This >>> is supposedly safe, in the average population. But I've learned to >> beware >>> that phrase. What if it is a disaster in mito people? What do I get >> then, a >>> headstone that says " Wow, we sure didn't see THAT coming. " ? >>> >>> Regards >>> Steve D. >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:48:48 -0500 >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: update >>>> >>>> Alice >>>> >>>> I feel better that it is minor, but was hoping to know more after >> the >>>> appointment. I am not looking forward to the treadmill. My guess >> is that I >>>> will make it about 2 minutes and have to stop, but it might be one >> of my >>>> better days - who knows. >>>> >>>> laurie >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reply-To: >>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:04 -0700 >>>>> To: > >>>>> Subject: Re: update >>>>> >>>>> Laurie, >>>>> >>>>> This sounds promising except I wish you didn't have to deal with >> it at >>> all. I >>>>> guess you'll know more after the CT scan. I wouldn't be looking >> forward >>> to >>>>> the treadmill testing. That's not one I could do. I guess you >> probably >>> feel a >>>>> little better after this appointment, don't you? >>>>> >>>>> Alice >>>>> >>>>> I saw the pulmonologist that my neuro wanted me to see. In >> looking at my >>> CT >>>>> films, he feels the scaring in my lungs was minor and probably >> due to >>> the >>>>> mito. He ordered a lung specific CT that will be done both on my >> back >>> and on >>>>> my stomach. I also will have a pre and post 6 min. treadmill >> pulmonary >>>>> function test and then see him. It probably won't be for a couple >> of >>> months. >>>>> >>>>> laurie >>> >>> >>> Medical advice, information, opinions, data and statements >> contained herein >>> are not necessarily those of the list moderators. The author of >> this e mail is >>> entirely responsible for its content. List members are reminded of >> their >>> responsibility to evaluate the content of the postings and consult >> with their >>> physicians regarding changes in their own treatment. >>> >>> Personal attacks are not permitted on the list and anyone who sends >> one is >>> automatically moderated or removed depending on the severity of the >> attack. >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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