SHAUNAH: re: Is this a war against DIM or Fibroids?LONG!!!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:26:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,

myrtle9e6@... writes:

The more I've been reading into these postings the last couple of

weeks the more I question the information that has been provided by

some of us regarding DIM and other non-surgical alternatives that a

member may inquire about.

Shaunah:

First of all, I want you to know that I support and applaud your healthy

cynicism

Carla recently encouraged all of us to keep " asking questions, digging into

the research, asking more questions, examining angles of treatment, discussing

controversial topics of care. "

She also encouraged us not to become defensive should we disagree with

someone's viewpoint. To not lean on blind faith and mere anecdotal

referrals--but

to verify, verify, verify!!!

She's a tough cookie, . . .that Carla, isn't she? :-) Quite the stickler,

when it comes to gathering evidence.

SHAUNAH WROTE:

I believe if information regarding research on a product such as DIM

is going to be posted to this group, especially by the moderator, but

the GOOD AND the BAD should be posted.

ROMA WROTE:

As Pat has already indicated in her post, balanced coverage is NOT at

all discouraged here.

If you have something " good " to post on a given subject-- DIM-- or anything

else, speak up!!

But, as you know, there are many unscrupulous and misguided people and then

there are the for-profit sites out there that have something to sell. If that's

gonna be the " positive " side we're presenting, I think we need to know there

may be a real bias--(that is. . . if we can even figure out who the sponsors

are.)

SHAUNAH WROTE:

All I've been hearing about

is research online, and I hate to be the one to break it to all you

but everything online is not accurate. How about trying to go to a

library, read some medical journals?

ROMA RESPONDS:

But, Shaunah, the Internet, is nowadays, often a PRIMARY, rather than a

secondary source of information. In fact, most of the leading medical journals,

including JAMA (Journal of American Medical Association) have web sites that

print peer-reviewed articles. Sometimes access is free, and sometimes you have

to

pay to be subscribed.

Although , no one is disputing that library books and journals are still

wonderful sources for research: do bear in mind: Just because a tree has

sacrificed its life to make a book or medical journal for you and me--- doesn't

automatically make it a " more valid " source.

SHAUNAH WROTE:

Fibroids may not be classified as a cancer but whose to say it won't

be classified as a type of cancer in the future?

ROMA RESPONDS:

Actually----I'd say that fibroids being " classified as a type of cancer " WILL

NEVER EVER HAPPEN, at least not based on the current definition of " cancer "

as published by _Stedman's Medical Dictionary_

Which begs the question: What exactly IS cancer?

Well, Stedman (the medical dictionary, NOT Oprah's long-time boyfriend!!!)

says that cancer is a " general term frequently used to indicate any of various

types of malignant neoplasm, most of which invade surrounding tissues, may

metastasize to several sites, and are likely to recur after attempted removal

and

to cause death of the patient unless adequately treated. "

By the way, " Neoplasm " is defined by same source noted above as " an abnormal

tissue that grows by proliferation more rapidly than normal and continues to

grow after the stimuli that initiated the new growth cease. "

Fibroids, unlike cancerous tumors, do NOT have the capability to

*metastasize* to several sites. Closest thing imaginable I suppose would be the

EXTREMELY

RARE instance of a parasitic fibroid, which

list member Michele had--and lived to tell us all about! But, even then, no

oncologist would classify that unusual fibroid as having being a metastatic

tumor..

Furthermore, fibroids, themselves, (unlike cancer) do not ever " cause death

of the patient unless adequately treated.. " Granted, fibroids may CONTRIBUTE to

other very serious medical problems that may indeed

be life-threatening (think: hemorrhaging, anemia, etc.) but no one could make

a case that fibroids can kill, the way cancer cells can.

As Carla pointed out, and simply put, fibroids DON'T grow at the cellular

level by proliferation, the way cancer cells do. Never have, never will. At

the

cellular level, fibroids don't LOOK like, nor do they BEHAVE like cancer.

Once more, with feeling-------one and all!!!!!!!!: FIBROIDS ARE ALWAYS

BENIGN!!!!!!!!!

ALWAYS BENIGN! NEVER CANCER! NEVER MALIGNANT!

SHAUNAH WRITES:

Regardless if

fibroids is a cancer or not, DIM has proven to reduce symptoms in

many women, including in this group. Isn't that some progress?

ROMA RESPONDS:

Did you really mean " PROVEN? "

Let's first determine what you consider " PROOF " ? One woman's anecdotal

report? The anecdotal reports of 12 women?

Are these women's (apparently) positive experience to be thought of as

" PROGRESS " ? Maybe yes-- but maybe no.

And is it proof? Not for me. What's needed is much more rigorous studies, far

more compelling evidence that can be repeated, time and time again-- on a

much larger scale.

For starters, I think we should consider any PUBLISHED randomized

double-blinded controlled clinical trials--on DIM, for instance. Carla didn't

say there

weren't any published on DIM--she only said she couldn't find any trace of a

study, after a thorough search on-line. Can you? On line or in a medical

journal. Anywhere?

Of course, one study would be great....but to really prove the efficacy and

SAFETY of a given substance, ONE SINGLE study isn't enough. The results of the

study have to repeatable ( " provable " ) in subsequent studies for the results

to be considered meaningful.

Then even a study, a reliable one, with many women with fibroids, may not

include participants who are just like ME--or YOU.

Furthermore, if you think the WORST thing that could happen if a you try a

supplement or herb is that it simply didn't work or that you're out a few

bucks......that's just not so.

The fact is: Some so-called " natural " cures can have unanticipated side

effects--they can be helpful sometimes, but they can also be toxic and even

deadly.

Example " Remember the seemingly innocuous " kava kava " --once touted as a cure

for everything from stress to PMS to anxiety?

Well, in time, through the sad experiences of some consumers, we've learned

" kava kava " can sometimes " lava lava " your liver.

Sure, we all know prescription drugs can be toxic, too --and certainly not

free of side effects. However, we at least know there have been thorough,

controlled studies. In the very least, we have reliable information about the

ED

(effective dose) vs. the LD (lethal dose)!

SHAUNAH WRITES:

Did we

forget that there is basically NOTHING known and proven fact on

fibroids or are some of us brainwashed to believe everything that

doctors say is true to life?

ROMA RESPONDS:

" NOTHING " known? A slight exaggeration, no?--especially for those medical and

lay experts who've spent YEARS reading and researching information, and

writing books on the subject of fibroids--so we grateful readers have SOME

reliable

foundation to make intelligent treatment choices.

SHAUNAH WRITES:

I am grateful I do have a real doctor that understands that all what

is written and true one day...comes to be false the next. I won't

consider the FDA's opinion as to what is good for me, they were the

same group that allowed millions of Americans to become addicted to

cigarettes and then claimed they were not responsible.

ROMA RESPONDS:

Shaunah, I don't want to come across as an apologist for the FDA.

However, to me, your refusal to even " CONSIDER the FDA's opinion " (the

operative word being " consider " ) is tantamount to saying you'd refuse to

consider

reading any news that the " New York Times " prints each day --- because the world

renowned newspaper mistakenly published fictitious information in articles

written by a " bad apple " reporter (the infamous Jayson Blair)

No one person or institution, not your doctor, not my doctor, not the FDA,

not Carla, not Dr. , not the New York Times--is INFALLIBLE.

At some point in the process, we ALL here take a " leap of faith " (even if

that leap is to do nothing except watchful waiting)--but I think we should

really

LOOK long and hard and THINK and do some SERIOUS STUDY before we take that

leap, that all-important health decision.

SHAUNAH WRITES:

For every woman's safety, do your own research not only supplements

but on all surgical procedures as well. Please make your own

informed decisions.

Of course. I think this is wise, enlightened advice: counsel which NO ONE

here (especially Carla, herself) would argue with.

With medical conditions like uterine fibroids, adenomyosis and

endometriosis-- where " uncertainty is king " --we need to be especially wary of

the " snake

oil salesmen, " who prey on the un-knowledgeable and the uninformed. BUT EQUALLY

WARY we should be of the well-intended but unscientific, unsubstantiated (and

therefore potentially harmful) anecdotal reports.

We patients with fibroids are prone to feeling frustrated and even desperate,

at times. It's tempting to want to jump on the bandwagon of the latest

promising treatment.

I think that's understandable, because, at least it makes us feel " like we're

doing something. "

When it comes to my health, I'll listen to just about anything. I try not to

dismiss anything new or alternative, as being " quackery " without first

listening to the claims pro and con and take note of who is saying what.

But, in the end, I won't simply " take your word for it. " I can't--it's my

health and I have to live with the consequences--short and long

term.....So....call me a " DIM-wit " if you will , but first, before I'll consider

taking " DIM "

....or anything else--I say:

" SHOW ME THE DATA! !! "

The always long-winded,

Roma